Author Topic: Threaded fasteners on cars  (Read 4336 times)

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Offline bostonman

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Re: Threaded fasteners on cars
« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2022, 12:36:54 am »
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I have had the 1987 edition of this book for ages and, if you're interested in the topic, you'll likely enjoy the book as well. I wouldn't say it's a must-have for wrenching on daily drivers, but if you're passionate enough to start a thread on the topic, you'll likely enjoy a couple evenings with it.
https://www.amazon.com/Prepare-Win-Bolts-Professional-Preparation/dp/0615547338

Is this a story book or more like a reference on various bolts/nuts?

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Living in the salty road New England, fasteners loosening when you don't want them to is nowhere near the problem as fasteners not loosening when you do want them do. I'm more likely to need to use a blue wrench (torch) to loosen some crusty old bolt than I am to find something worked loose on a daily driver.

New England weather is all I know. I'm so accustomed that I don't know what it's like to work on a car where it hasn't been subjected to salt. I don't typically bother with suspension, but somewhat recent worked on replacing the control arms on an old car. The control arms were broken in half due to age/rust, and, to remove the bolts, I quickly discovered the bolt heads were reduced in size due to eroding away. At first I thought it was my sockets/wrenches because SAE wouldn't fit nor would metric. I tried every trick in the book with the exception of heat (too dangerous underneath a car with rot and not worth risking injury and/or fire).
 

Offline sokoloff

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Re: Threaded fasteners on cars
« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2022, 01:00:14 am »
Quote
I have had the 1987 edition of this book for ages and, if you're interested in the topic, you'll likely enjoy the book as well. I wouldn't say it's a must-have for wrenching on daily drivers, but if you're passionate enough to start a thread on the topic, you'll likely enjoy a couple evenings with it.
https://www.amazon.com/Prepare-Win-Bolts-Professional-Preparation/dp/0615547338

Is this a story book or more like a reference on various bolts/nuts?
It's definitely not a novel, but more a how-to/tips. (Things like "put the nut on the lower or trailing part of the fastener; that way, if it does work loose, you have a fighting chance that the bolt will remain in place long enough to finish the race." IIRC, it covers single and double shear mounting, various fastener retention schemes, etc.)
Quote
Living in the salty road New England, fasteners loosening when you don't want them to is nowhere near the problem as fasteners not loosening when you do want them do. I'm more likely to need to use a blue wrench (torch) to loosen some crusty old bolt than I am to find something worked loose on a daily driver.

New England weather is all I know. I'm so accustomed that I don't know what it's like to work on a car where it hasn't been subjected to salt. I don't typically bother with suspension, but somewhat recent worked on replacing the control arms on an old car. The control arms were broken in half due to age/rust, and, to remove the bolts, I quickly discovered the bolt heads were reduced in size due to eroding away. At first I thought it was my sockets/wrenches because SAE wouldn't fit nor would metric. I tried every trick in the book with the exception of heat (too dangerous underneath a car with rot and not worth risking injury and/or fire).
Maybe consider it next time. The blue wrench is a huge time and knuckle saver, especially on chassis and suspension bolts. That sickening feeling of "oh good, the wrench moved, but oh crap, that didn't feel right; this job just got a LOT longer" is way less frequent if you're willing to hit the stuck fasteners with the torch first. Just a regular old plumbing torch on a propane bottle is usually enough; nothing crazy. I'll hit 'em until the edges just start to glow if it's a metal-on-metal fastener. Metal-in-rubber you have to be a little more judicious with the torch, but it's still REALLY hard to catch anything on fire.
 

Offline bostonman

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Re: Threaded fasteners on cars
« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2022, 05:37:10 pm »
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Maybe consider it next time. The blue wrench is a huge time and knuckle saver, especially on chassis and suspension bolts.

I fully agree that heat would have made the job quicker and easier. Sometimes I weigh whether the risk is worth it. In this case, the car has rust and some holes. The bracket holding the broken control arm (both sides were broken) was higher than the frame requiring I either lay under a jacked up car with a torch leaving me with little "escape" room. Plus, due to the rot, fire could go somewhere it shouldn't.

In either case, I got it without heat after trying everything I could think of.
 

Offline ZeynebTopic starter

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Re: Threaded fasteners on cars
« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2022, 08:55:03 pm »
I do apologize for not responding back. I do understand from many of you this is a complex topic and it would be best to leave it as much to what the car manufacturer made. I do have some bolts on the trailer hitch assembly which I am unsure of what locking mechanism to apply for that. I think it would be best to ask my car mechanic for a recommendation on the torque and if I would need a wave washer or something to make it suitable to tow something. Apart from doing many things on my car as a DIY job, I do enjoy to have a car mechanic who is willing to address my ultra specific questions. He definitely has few of customers like me, or maybe I'm the only one.
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Offline tautech

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Re: Threaded fasteners on cars
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2022, 11:55:49 pm »
I do apologize for not responding back. I do understand from many of you this is a complex topic and it would be best to leave it as much to what the car manufacturer made. I do have some bolts on the trailer hitch assembly which I am unsure of what locking mechanism to apply for that. I think it would be best to ask my car mechanic for a recommendation on the torque and if I would need a wave washer or something to make it suitable to tow something. Apart from doing many things on my car as a DIY job, I do enjoy to have a car mechanic who is willing to address my ultra specific questions. He definitely has few of customers like me, or maybe I'm the only one.
You won't go wrong with good old plain flat and spring washer arrangement with lubed threads and torque to tightness specified in this guide. All you need do is identify the thread and pitch and fastener size and tensile rating.
Pretty standard stuff.
https://www.fastenal.com/content/merch_rules/images/fcom/content-library/Torque-Tension%20Reference%20Guide.pdf
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Offline aeberbach

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Re: Threaded fasteners on cars
« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2022, 12:10:52 am »
Only recurring issue on road cars I've experienced is exhaust manifold bolts, studs, etc. Not surprising really, a bolt or stud that is repeatedly cycled with that degree of heat is asking for trouble unless it is made from a suitable material, which is rare on road cars due to price.

On a E30 BMW 323i I had the weirdest nut was the slightly oval-shaped copper nuts used on the exhaust manifold studs. Is that the suitable material you mean?
Software guy studying B.Eng.
 

Offline bostonman

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Re: Threaded fasteners on cars
« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2022, 01:47:24 am »
I'm sure many mechanics have good knowledge of bolt arrangement, but I also bet their knowledge is based on experience where they've seen several methods; some resulting in being a weak point where they know to use a stronger bolt.

Mechanical engineers know some good in depth knowledge of materials.

My point is that it depends on the level you want to learn. If you want to know names of bolts/washers/nuts, a mechanic is great. If you want to learn weak points on various cars, which bolts need improving because of these weak points, tools to remove/install parts, and methods to remove/install parts, a mechanic is no doubt your best option. If you want to spend a few weekends learning materials, tension, torque, etc... then reading is your best option.

As I mentioned before, if I remove a bolt on a car or power equipment, I check the bolt/nut for age followed by its application. A bolt the diameter of my finger is most likely not worth replacing unless it's on suspension and worn down due to rust. Anyway, my point is, if you're working on a car that's a year or two old, then you'd need to be a mechanical engineer to know whether you should change bolts because they may break in time. If you do that, you'll spend quite a bit of time analyzing all the forces, materials, temperature variations, etc...

If you work on a car that's ten-years-old and you don't see any bolts that are broken or worn out, chances are they will last because they lasted the test of time. If you're working on a twenty-five-year-old car or longer, it's either a piece of junk and you'll be replacing only the necessary bolts, or you're restoring it in which case you'll want to replace bolts.

My approach is take the bolt/nut in question and measure it. Get the basics, is it a hex bolt, how long is it, diameter, and thread (TPI if it's SAE or pitch if it's metric), go on McMaster Carr, and start with basic filters. i.e. hex, 1" long, 3/8" diameter, 24TPI (assuming 3/8" bolt comes in 24TPI).

Now, McMaster will show you the remaining options for a bolt with those specs. Do they have options for stainless steel, different grades, etc...?

You have the option for regular or stainless steel, research the differences like tensile strength and whether it's corrosion resistant.

As for torquing, every bolt/nut has a torque spec, but it's rare I torque any bolt with a torque wrench. In fact, I've replaced intake manifold gaskets on two cars, same engine type, and the torque spec in Haynes caused the plastic plenum (?) to crack on one bolt hole. A brand new out-of-the-box plenum and it began cracking. The second car I replaced the intake manifold gasket on I began tightening the bolts in the pattern outlined in Haynes with a regular socket wrench, I went around and around until I felt it was snug enough to begin using the torque wrench. To my surprise the torque wrench clicked on every bolt telling me I either went a bit too tight on all of them, or I got them just right just by feel from years of practice. Either way, I did that job about ten-years-ago and the engine is still running without a leak.

Point of my story is: you can read all the books you want, talk to anyone you want, but it also takes feel. When you're tightening a bolt and it begins grabbing or suddenly gets easier to tighten, all the education in the world  hasn't prepared you to know that you may be cross threading the bolt (if it got harder) or the bolt is ready to snap or something cracked (because it got easier).
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Threaded fasteners on cars
« Reply #32 on: November 08, 2022, 09:31:03 pm »
Point of my story is: you can read all the books you want, talk to anyone you want, but it also takes feel. When you're tightening a bolt and it begins grabbing or suddenly gets easier to tighten, all the education in the world  hasn't prepared you to know that you may be cross threading the bolt (if it got harder) or the bolt is ready to snap or something cracked (because it got easier).

As a sarcastic comment that used to circulate at one company I worked for went: "Tighten until the threads just strip and then back off half a turn".
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline sokoloff

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Re: Threaded fasteners on cars
« Reply #33 on: November 08, 2022, 10:37:18 pm »
My first two cars were Volkswagens and, being of the age and miles that is common for one's first car, I spent some time at the Volkswagen Parts Department. They had this poster hanging near the counter:

 
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