### Author Topic: 10k precision resistor project  (Read 7957 times)

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#### MasterTech

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##### 10k precision resistor project
« on: February 22, 2018, 06:49:20 pm »
I'm in the mood of experimenting with the build of a 10k precision resistor. After reading the posts here about standard resistors I've decided to try my own design given the constraint that I'll rely on commercial items only.

This is the design, it will be inside a small metallic box filled with oil (except for the potentiomenter) with pomona 3770 binding posts.
The composite adjusting resistors vary between 9.1 and 10.7 ohm, so each degree of turn of the potentiometer (26 turns) accounts for around 0.2mOhms of change (given a linear curve which is not)

Let me know what you think or even if it is an idea worth trying or not
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 09:03:34 pm by MasterTech »

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#### The Soulman

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##### Re: 10k precision resistor project
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2018, 07:45:48 pm »
The trim range is to big, it will be a pain to adjust to read 10.000.xx? on your favorite meter, assuming that is the plan.
After that you're depending heavily on the stability of the trimmer and its accompanying resistors.

The stability of the main 10K resistor is the most important, others can be lower tolerance/higher tempco depending on how much the attribute to the end value, you can calculate what their influence would be.

I'd probably go for a low value r in series with the main 10K and use a high value r in series with a trim pot parallel to the main 10K.
Calculate for a minimum (leave some margin..) trim range.

Edit: It would be helpful to know it's intended purpose and how you are going to adjust it.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 07:48:54 pm by The Soulman »

#### MasterTech

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##### Re: 10k precision resistor project
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2018, 09:14:38 pm »
Reducing the trim range is something I still have to look. However note my comment about "given the constraint that I'll rely on commercial items only". Once you come up with a topology, like the one you suggested which is fine, and start crunching numbers you'll realize you need exotic values like 0.33 or 9.9 which are not readily available, and I do not plan to select among a purchase of 50 expensive resistors.

I plan to adjust it with a 3458A and later probably send it to someone to have it checked/retrimmed
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 09:26:43 pm by MasterTech »

#### RandallMcRee

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##### Re: 10k precision resistor project
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2018, 04:33:37 pm »

I have been measuring a lot of 10K Z-foil resistors lately (VAR and S102K, not the Y series but same technology, similar datasheet). 6.5 digit measurements only, but tcr and hysteresis are readily visible.

So, yeah, 0.2ppm TCR typical is not that typical. Temperature hysteresis is real.

Personally, I would investigate PWWs like Ultrohm. For the same price you can buy several and pick a winner.

See Andreas' thread for measurements which, I believe, confirm my observations.

#### cellularmitosis

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##### Re: 10k precision resistor project
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2018, 04:51:49 pm »
I am just about to post my own results in Andreas thread.  The summary is that yes, 0.2ppm/C is not what I would call "typical"

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#### MasterTech

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##### Re: 10k precision resistor project
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2018, 04:57:57 pm »
So, yeah, 0.2ppm TCR typical is not that typical. Temperature hysteresis is real
hmm, because of this I was thinking of ovenizing the whole thing to 40C. It is something not common in standard resistors, but I prefer short term stability and would be interesting to see the 1-year drift for this kind of setup

#### cellularmitosis

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##### Re: 10k precision resistor project
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2018, 06:02:30 pm »
Drift may be higher if you ovenize at a higher temperature.  I'm planning to ovenize my resistance transfer standard as well, but at 25C.
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#### MasterTech

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##### Re: 10k precision resistor project
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2018, 06:13:31 pm »
Drift may be higher if you ovenize at a higher temperature.  I'm planning to ovenize my resistance transfer standard as well, but at 25C.
40C is just a bit higher than the max temperatures I expect where I live, thats why.

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#### MasterTech

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##### Re: 10k precision resistor project
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2018, 09:26:09 pm »
I'll think I'll change the circuit for this one. This way the whole 26 turns of the 10ohm pot will create a change of 0.416 ohms, or 35mOhms per turn (considering its linear which is not)

Besides that I'll think i'll put the potentiomenter also inside the oil box with means to be adjusted from the outside

Edit: the schematic had a mistake
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 09:37:46 pm by MasterTech »

#### Conrad Hoffman

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##### Re: 10k precision resistor project
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2018, 12:31:10 am »
That just seems way too complicated when you consider all the internal terminations and whatever problems get added by the physical construction. I'd probably buy as many good 10k parts as I could reasonably afford, then select one that's just a tiny bit high, and apply a pad to that.

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#### MasterTech

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##### Re: 10k precision resistor project
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2018, 12:56:08 am »
I'd probably buy as many good 10k parts as I could reasonably afford, then select one that's just a tiny bit high, and apply a pad to that.
That’s boring and same ol same ol, where’s all the fun of building something new then, you and Tin are no fun
« Last Edit: February 24, 2018, 06:17:50 am by MasterTech »

#### eurofox

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##### Re: 10k precision resistor project
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2018, 01:28:46 am »
That just seems way too complicated when you consider all the internal terminations and whatever problems get added by the physical construction. I'd probably buy as many good 10k parts as I could reasonably afford, then select one that's just a tiny bit high, and apply a pad to that.

This is my option as well, I got Vishay 10K 0.005% 2PPM for 7 Euros per unit.
eurofox

#### quarks

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##### Re: 10k precision resistor project
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2018, 10:40:00 pm »
It is always good to experiment with new designs, but why tell a good meant suggestion boring?

#### MasterTech

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##### Re: 10k precision resistor project
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2018, 10:59:19 pm »
It is always good to experiment with new designs, but why tell a good meant suggestion boring?

Because that approach lacks my interest and greatly deviates from the objective of this project?

#### Vtile

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##### Re: 10k precision resistor project
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2018, 01:01:06 am »
May I ask why you use series pot?

At parallel configuration:
If your fixed value is A and the pot value is 100*A your drop area stays inside 2.5% of the fixed value in aprox. 65% of the control window (pot turns). You might want to calculate which one is better for your application series or parallel pot?
« Last Edit: February 25, 2018, 01:12:09 am by Vtile »

#### MasterTech

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##### Re: 10k precision resistor project
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2018, 02:05:50 am »
I've simplified the circuit to eliminate a few resistors:

May I ask why you use series pot?

It mainly has to do with the availability of low TCR good quality precision trimmers, they are made for low Rs, like the Accutrim series from Vishay (attached PDF). Maybe there are others but with Mouser being my preferred distributor this is what they have.
Besides that the series configuration in this case seems ok, the series adjustment varies from 0.5 to 0.916:

The area of interest for adjustment of the composite series part is at 0.6667 ohm approximately (ie when the total resistance amounts exactly to 10k). That is not very convenient because by the way because the slope there is high. Still a 15ppm increase in resistance of the 26 turn trim at that point creates an overall change of 1.7uohms at the output terminals. So the sensitivity to its TCR is quite good.
Anyway I'll look If I can shift the area of interest to a place with a lower slope

EDIT: just noticed that lowering the 50M resistor to 20M, the adjusting point moves to 0.833 which is better.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2018, 02:23:25 am by MasterTech »

#### Vtile

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##### Re: 10k precision resistor project
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2018, 02:24:18 am »
Have you noticed this piece of information from accutrim datasheet: "through the wiper ± 50 ppm/°C"

#### MasterTech

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##### Re: 10k precision resistor project
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2018, 02:33:54 am »
Have you noticed this piece of information from accutrim datasheet: "through the wiper ± 50 ppm/°C"
Yep, I'm still taking the 15ppm because those TCRs are stated for -55 to +125 and I expect them to be much better around 25º and also I've decided to place the trim inside the oil box (trimmable from the outside)
And still, this is the best trim I have right now

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#### Svgeesus

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##### Re: 10k precision resistor project
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2018, 03:07:45 am »
That just seems way too complicated when you consider all the internal terminations and whatever problems get added by the physical construction. I'd probably buy as many good 10k parts as I could reasonably afford, then select one that's just a tiny bit high, and apply a pad to that.

I understand the point I believe you are making about minimizing the effect of all those copper to solder to copper connections in the circuit.

Would your pad be a one-time fixed resistor pad, or would it include a trimmer to allow for later adjustment?

#### cellularmitosis

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##### Re: 10k precision resistor project
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2018, 04:06:13 am »
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#### MasterTech

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##### Re: 10k precision resistor project
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2018, 04:21:45 am »
Your simplified design is similar to the SRX-10k.

Its seems so, and if I had a custom made 9999.x resistor I could eliminate the parallel with 120Mohms, but commercial resistors are my constraint

#### TiN

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##### Re: 10k precision resistor project
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2018, 04:42:14 am »
TiN is boring?
Try to build 5700A from bits and pieces, then you call me boring

I'll just leave this here:

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#### cellularmitosis

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##### Re: 10k precision resistor project
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2018, 04:42:36 am »
MasterTech, I'm not sure I understand.  Your 10k Vishay resistors are the same as 9.999k Vishay resistors ordered from Texas Components (which can deliver in 2-3 weeks).  They are both "commercial".  They are both custom laser-trimmed to meet a spec.  The only difference is that with the 10k, they decided what value to laser-trim to, instead of asking which value you wanted.

In other words, they are all "custom".
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#### MasterTech

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##### Re: 10k precision resistor project
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2018, 04:57:25 am »
MasterTech, I'm not sure I understand.  Your 10k Vishay resistors are the same as 9.999k Vishay resistors ordered from Texas Components (which can deliver in 2-3 weeks).  They are both "commercial".  They are both custom laser-trimmed to meet a spec.  The only difference is that with the 10k, they decided what value to laser-trim to, instead of asking which value you wanted.

In other words, they are all "custom".
U are right, what I meant is that although all are custom manufactured some are stocked and sold thru distributors and others needs to be backordered. Basically I need a 9999.2, 0.2ppm resistor. For a production unit it may be worth it to order one, but for a one-time project I'm not sure....

#### MasterTech

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##### Re: 10k precision resistor project
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2018, 04:58:34 am »
TiN is boring?
Try to build 5700A from bits and pieces, then you call me boring
I knew you'd bite

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#### MisterDiodes

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##### Re: 10k precision resistor project
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2018, 06:44:45 am »
Have you noticed this piece of information from accutrim datasheet: "through the wiper ± 50 ppm/°C"
Yep, I'm still taking the 15ppm because those TCRs are stated for -55 to +125 and I expect them to be much better around 25º and also I've decided to place the trim inside the oil box (trimmable from the outside)
And still, this is the best trim I have right now

Not quite.

The Vishay's will tend to have around 50+ppm TC any time you use the wiper - which is "always" (Otherwise why do you have a pot?).  Their datasheet is somewhat fantasy when you actually measure the pot's TC and long term stability.  If you're at DC, we stick with Bourns WW pots if possible - at least their datasheets are more realistic.  You get a little more stepped adjustment effect on the lower values, but on 1k and up values it's really not that noticeable.

On the upside if you use the pots correctly they contribute very little TC as long as the precision resistor they are trimming has a very overwhelming TC effect on the final trimmed value.

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#### MisterDiodes

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##### Re: 10k precision resistor project
« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2018, 08:16:57 am »
...Remember that a "Standard" reference resistor doesn't necessarily mean "Low TC".  That's why SR-104's have a temperature compensation curve right on the cover.  L & N standard resistors are actually pretty good thermometers too.  It's up to you to maintain the proper lab temperature for best performance.

What you're talking about in a "standard" resistor is -low- long term drift @ a certain fixed temperature.  Normally you want that close to around 20 ~ 25C, 40C is going to probably cause accelerated drift depending on what resistor material you're using.  Devices with very low long term drift aren't that common in the commercial market.

A "Precision" resistor might be something that you could trim up and null out on a resistance bridge to match a good resistor (like an SR-104) for a short term transfer;  the word "short" might be up to interpretation - depending on what you really need and at what uncertainty, since this is the metrology section.

A 3458a isn't really the best resistance transfer device - (or for voltage transfer, despite the claims of the HFL version) - for really accurate measures a resistance bridge + good reference resistor + good null meter are your best friends... Even when you're building you're own "precision" resistor, you'll want to know how well it really works, and how fast is it drifting (it will, guaranteed).

Or at least have some buddies with good Ohms-nut equipment

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#### Vtile

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##### Re: 10k precision resistor project
« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2018, 08:52:45 am »
Have you noticed this piece of information from accutrim datasheet: "through the wiper ± 50 ppm/°C"
Yep, I'm still taking the 15ppm because those TCRs are stated for -55 to +125 and I expect them to be much better around 25º and also I've decided to place the trim inside the oil box (trimmable from the outside)
And still, this is the best trim I have right now

Not quite.

The Vishay's will tend to have around 50+ppm TC any time you use the wiper - which is "always" (Otherwise why do you have a pot?).  Their datasheet is somewhat fantasy when you actually measure the pot's TC and long term stability.  If you're at DC, we stick with Bourns WW pots if possible - at least their datasheets are more realistic.  You get a little more stepped adjustment effect on the lower values, but on 1k and up values it's really not that noticeable.

On the upside if you use the pots correctly they contribute very little TC as long as the precision resistor they are trimming has a very overwhelming TC effect on the final trimmed value.
It is nice when someone who knows backs up ones amateur free thinking.  I think the TC of those Vishay resistors are more for "biasing" use case, not as much as trim resistor. Ie. in case you put one of those to output of voltage reference and the current consumption needs to be in 15 ppm and the output voltage of the wiper is buffered.   ... or something on those lines.

Edit. Removed unrelated late addition.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 03:04:50 am by Vtile »

#### Inverted18650

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##### Re: 10k precision resistor project
« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2018, 12:11:29 pm »

#### Vgkid

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##### Re: 10k precision resistor project
« Reply #57 on: March 09, 2018, 02:16:02 pm »
You guys know you can buy copper spade lugs , right.
https://www.omega.com/googlebase/product.html?pn=SLCP-20
Slcp-20 is what you need.
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#### SirAlucard

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##### Re: 10k precision resistor project
« Reply #58 on: March 10, 2018, 05:55:47 pm »
I also wonder what is meant by "copper oxide" when quoting that gigantic thermal EMF figure.  Are we talking about the slightly dull look on copper which has sat out for a few days?  Or are we talking about the green statue of liberty?

I don't think we'd be able to get it to a green oxide like the statue of liberty. However definitely the darker dull copper look. I mean imagine it would actually insulate the copper a bit. Since it's forming a layer on top of the copper.

#### MasterTech

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##### Re: 10k precision resistor project
« Reply #59 on: March 17, 2018, 11:33:25 pm »
To give shape to the copper enclosure I took a plastic rod and milled it to have a planar face and two longitudinal groovings

After that I inserted in the bottom side of the enclosure a PCB with a conductive mesh soldered to it, this separates the heater from the resistor itself

After putting all in place, filling with oil at 45º and sealing the fill gap, this is the result. All the feedthroughs in the upper side are Tusonix 2461-001-X7V0-102PLF

I also took 4 golden binding post from a broken advantest R8340A I have, they are thicker than pomona 3770, so 40€ saved there.

Now I'll have to build container box, temp control, etc...
« Last Edit: March 17, 2018, 11:39:15 pm by MasterTech »

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#### TiN

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##### Re: 10k precision resistor project
« Reply #60 on: March 18, 2018, 07:58:55 am »
Nice SFRS (Smiley face resistance standard)  .
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#### quarks

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##### Re: 10k precision resistor project
« Reply #61 on: March 19, 2018, 05:25:47 am »
your binding posts look very much like BP-1000 which are available from IET (see att.)
« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 05:30:34 am by quarks »

#### Inverted18650

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##### Re: 10k precision resistor project
« Reply #62 on: March 19, 2018, 10:51:24 am »
MasterTech: this is great. Thank you for posting.

#### Conrad Hoffman

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##### Re: 10k precision resistor project
« Reply #63 on: March 19, 2018, 02:00:52 pm »
$69 for a binding post? Each? Seriously? #### TiN • Super Contributor • Posts: 3896 • Country: • xDevs.com/live - 24/7 lab feed ##### Re: 10k precision resistor project « Reply #64 on: March 19, 2018, 03:11:45 pm » Yea, I'll go with Low Thermal ones for 36% of that cost. They also look much nicer than these. YouTube | Chat room | Live-cam | Have documentation to share? Upload here! No size limit, firmware dumps, photos. #### MasterTech • Frequent Contributor • Posts: 860 • Country: ##### Re: 10k precision resistor project « Reply #65 on: March 19, 2018, 06:49:20 pm » your binding posts look very much like BP-1000 which are available from IET (see att.) Based on dimensions it seems so. The pomona 3770 look like a kids toy compared to these sturdy ones. Quote MasterTech: this is great. Thank you for posting. Thanks. There are a couple of details when building hermetic oil cans like these. Specially the thermal expansion coefficient of oil is not negligible. That's why I made that planar face with groovings, and thats why it was filled with warm oil, I prefer it to shrink when it is cool rather than expand when heated The following users thanked this post: Inverted18650 #### eurofox • Supporter • Posts: 835 • Country: ##### Re: 10k precision resistor project « Reply #66 on: March 19, 2018, 07:01:39 pm » Yea, I'll go with Low Thermal ones for 36% of that cost. They also look much nicer than these. Where do you get those "cuties"? eurofox #### SirAlucard • Regular Contributor • Posts: 66 • Country: ##### Re: 10k precision resistor project « Reply #67 on: March 20, 2018, 02:23:13 am »$69 for a binding post? Each? Seriously?

I was thinking the exact same thing.. >.< I mean I guess they're gold plated so ehhh? I wouldn't really want to pay that much regardless for some bindings.

#### Edwin G. Pettis

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##### Re: 10k precision resistor project
« Reply #68 on: March 20, 2018, 03:56:27 am »
ESI/IET binding posts have always been over priced, nothing exceptional except the cost.  I've seen the BOM pricing on things like a SR1 transfer standard, if you bought all of the parts separately it would cost much more than what they charge for the SR1.

#### qihe_kim

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##### Re: 10k precision resistor project
« Reply #69 on: March 27, 2018, 06:26:32 pm »
This new design is pretty good .

#### HighVoltage

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##### Re: 10k precision resistor project
« Reply #70 on: March 27, 2018, 08:38:45 pm »
$69 for a binding post? Each? Seriously? And I thought that$20 for a LowThermal binding post was a lot.

Nice thread here, thanks.
There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can not.

#### MasterTech

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##### Re: 10k precision resistor project
« Reply #71 on: March 27, 2018, 09:00:45 pm »
This new design is pretty good .

Thanks, I didn't bother to do a Solidworks 3d mechanical design but I quickly did this more or less hand drawn cutaway view.

Done with ipad pro+apple pencil for those apple fans

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