Author Topic: 3458A - black edition  (Read 43716 times)

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Online iMo

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Re: 3458A - black edition
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2019, 01:56:03 pm »
There was a live demonstation here at PTB.
Any shots made at that demonstration?
 

Offline ScoobyDooTopic starter

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Re: 3458A - black edition
« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2019, 08:44:08 am »
With new fast 7.5 digit meters around the market for the 3458 is now smaller than it was 30 years ago, when it also was the fastest at 7.5 digits. Today the 34470 or DMM7510 may be a good alternative in some cases, when it is more about speed or digital RMS than highest resolution.

The 7 1/2 digit DMMs named above have A/D converters derived from older 6 1/2 digit DMMs and we cannot call these
instruments metrology grade 7 1/2 digit DMMs.
e.g. The DMM7510 has a very stable (ovenized) reference, however its linearity is not good enough to call it 7 1/2 digits worthy and units leave factory with sloppy calibration: [+10V/-10V] symmetry is poor and instrument suffers from DC offset once DC inputs shorted. Here the advise is: Try before you buy and compare results with a true 8 1/2 digit DMM. 


Improved A9 reference board - 2ppm/YR - lower TC @ lower cost using recent technology...
A 2ppm reference for the 3458A is/was already available from Keysight, for a sweet $2000, it can be purchased today, but I believe you’ll have to install yourself and send for calibration. Not available as an option during purchase.

The legacy HFL reference board 03458-66529 is still available from Keysight - that is correct.
The 2ppm / YR reflects long term drift - these are binned boards - screened over a few months.
However semiconductor companies make advances in BZ silicon - Passive component suppliers like VPG, etc. ... make advances in vacuum sealed BMF resistors ... so taking advantage of that knowledge KS could upgrade the 8ppm board 03458-66509 and create a new reference board with better TC and <2ppm long term stability as standard 3458A product at affordable cost. Currently the yield of the 2ppm binning process is not high enough to make it part of the standard product.
KS should be agile that it does not loose market share in this metrology arena by believing their 3458A - B.E. is still good enough to beat competition.

There was a live demonstation here at PTB.
Any shots made at that demonstration?

Some shots were taken - but attendees were asked not to divulge these pictures as it would alert competition ... and also reveal their identity ...
On one of the occasions the unit had still engineering colours - not the final RAL colors that were chosen by marketing.

Stay tuned ...

Herzliche Grüße/Meilleures salutations/Best regards
ScoobyDoo

« Last Edit: November 03, 2019, 08:59:45 am by ScoobyDoo »
 
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Offline niner_007

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Re: 3458A - black edition
« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2019, 10:32:11 pm »
Sounds exciting, looking forward to it :)
 

Online Zucca

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Re: 3458A - black edition
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2019, 01:42:18 pm »
Sorry, I posted it in the wrong one:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-3458a/msg2785490/#msg2785490

PS: I am still somehow scared to post here, you guys here have too much brain and experience compared with me....  :scared:
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Can't love what you don't know. Zucca
 

Offline MiDi

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Re: 3458A - black edition
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2019, 04:05:00 pm »
PS: I am still somehow scared to post here, you guys here have too much brain and experience compared with me....  :scared:

You are not alone, I join this club ;)
 

Online Zucca

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Re: 3458A - black edition
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2019, 12:40:05 pm »
Can't know what you don't love. St. Augustine
Can't love what you don't know. Zucca
 
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Offline guenthert

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Re: 3458A - black edition
« Reply #31 on: November 21, 2019, 04:30:33 am »
The 3458A is THE standard for a linear ADC.
(According to all voltage metrologists I had the chance to talk about that thing)
  Well, it's linearity is specified to be better than 0.1ppm.  That's also the specification used for Datron 1271/1281 (no longer available) and Fluke's 8508a.  Now, I don't mean to belittle the achievement of the HP3458A and it seems that its linearity remains unsurpassed even after 3 decades, but it's not unmatched either (at least as far as specifications go -- individual units might surpass their specifications of course).

  I further suspect they all share the same specification, not only because of market(ing) demands, but also because it'll be quite difficult to verify better specifications.

  That all might be idle talk as the Fluke 8508a is considerably more expensive than the 3458a, but with some luck one might fetch a reasonable priced Datron 1271/1281 on Fleebay.
 

Offline niner_007

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Re: 3458A - black edition
« Reply #32 on: November 21, 2019, 05:36:46 am »
I don’t know about the 8508A, but the new 8588A is $15K, the 3458A with opt 2, extended warranty and calibration with < 0.1ppm uncertainty is $12K, so I wouldn’t call it significantly more expensive, I would even say same ball park.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2019, 05:45:37 am by niner_007 »
 

Offline niner_007

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Re: 3458A - black edition
« Reply #33 on: November 21, 2019, 05:42:09 am »
The 3458A is THE standard for a linear ADC.
(According to all voltage metrologists I had the chance to talk about that thing)
  Well, it's linearity is specified to be better than 0.1ppm.  That's also the specification used for Datron 1271/1281 (no longer available) and Fluke's 8508a. 
Fluke doesn’t give away any linearity figures in any data sheets or specifications, so that claim is inaccurate, AFAIK. Only Fluke reference to linearity figures is in one marketing material, and that has zero technical content, nothing about how it always calculated, what the variation was etc. so little of I can believe personally, as it’s from the marketing department thru and thru, and not the engineering team.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2019, 05:43:47 am by niner_007 »
 

Offline e61_phil

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Re: 3458A - black edition
« Reply #34 on: November 21, 2019, 05:51:19 am »
Fluke specifies transfer and that includes linearity and is the only way you can proper calculate with the linearity.

There are JJA linearity measurements with the 3458A and also with the 8508A. So, where is the difference?

The 0.1ppm linearity in the marketing section of the 3458A isn't useful as long nobidy defines how you should calculate with that number. Or are you able to show an example calculation?

Fluke specifies "linearity" and call it linearity on the calibrators.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2019, 05:54:45 am by e61_phil »
 

Offline MiDi

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Re: 3458A - black edition
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2019, 06:34:46 am »
The 0.1ppm linearity in the marketing section of the 3458A isn't useful as long nobidy defines how you should calculate with that number. Or are you able to show an example calculation?

In the spec section there is Transfer Accuracy/Linearity for each voltage range given.
Why is that not applicable/not useful for accuracy calculation?
 

Offline e61_phil

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Re: 3458A - black edition
« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2019, 06:49:50 am »
The 0.1ppm linearity in the marketing section of the 3458A isn't useful as long nobidy defines how you should calculate with that number. Or are you able to show an example calculation?

In the spec section there is Transfer Accuracy/Linearity for each voltage range given.
Why is that not applicable/not useful for accuracy calculation?

It is. That is what I'm saying. The transfer spec is the only useful "linearity" spec in the datasheet and that is also given for the Fluke meters.
0.1ppm linearity in the head of the datasheet is the same marketing stuff as in the head of component datasheets.
 
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Offline eplpwr

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Re: 3458A - black edition
« Reply #37 on: November 23, 2019, 11:35:46 am »
Quote
A 2ppm reference for the 3458A is/was already available from Keysight, for a sweet $2000, it can be purchased today, but I believe you’ll have to install yourself and send for calibration. Not available as an option during purchase.

Nope. Got a reply yesterday from Keysight - they will NOT sell me the HFL reference as a spare part. They told me it's "not available", although it's right there in Find-A-Part, with (high) pricing and all ...

EDIT: Any suggestions how to get around this "we've got those but wont sell any to you" is most welcome.  :)
« Last Edit: November 23, 2019, 11:47:05 am by eplpwr »
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: 3458A - black edition
« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2019, 02:59:15 pm »
Here are some pictures I took of the new 3458A - Black Edition - at the Munich trade show last week at the Keysight exhibition stand.

There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can not.
 
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Offline bsdphk

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Re: 3458A - black edition
« Reply #39 on: November 23, 2019, 03:13:40 pm »
I'm very interested to hear what software version these meters run, if anybody gets a chance to run the "REV?" command I'd be most grateful.
 
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Offline dr.diesel

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Re: 3458A - black edition
« Reply #40 on: November 23, 2019, 03:15:18 pm »
I'm very interested to hear what software version these meters run, if anybody gets a chance to run the "REV?" command I'd be most grateful.

That is a great question! 

Offline niner_007

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Re: 3458A - black edition
« Reply #41 on: November 23, 2019, 10:04:51 pm »
Quote
A 2ppm reference for the 3458A is/was already available from Keysight, for a sweet $2000, it can be purchased today, but I believe you’ll have to install yourself and send for calibration. Not available as an option during purchase.

Nope. Got a reply yesterday from Keysight - they will NOT sell me the HFL reference as a spare part. They told me it's "not available", although it's right there in Find-A-Part, with (high) pricing and all ...

EDIT: Any suggestions how to get around this "we've got those but wont sell any to you" is most welcome.  :)
Did you call sales over phone? The email guys are always confusing, they told me again and again the ADC board cannot be bought anymore, yet I bought 4 ADC boards brand new, not refurbished, over phone.

There might be an exporting clause/restriction too, but they should at least be very clear on that. So in other words, call, with the intent of buying, don’t email.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2019, 10:14:09 pm by niner_007 »
 

Offline martinr33

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Re: 3458A - black edition
« Reply #42 on: November 24, 2019, 03:38:58 am »
In the US, I can put the 2ppm reference in  the cart and it looks like I can check it out.
 

Online Zucca

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Re: 3458A - black edition
« Reply #43 on: November 27, 2019, 11:57:43 am »
Here are some pictures I took of the new 3458A - Black Edition - at the Munich trade show last week at the Keysight exhibition stand.

I was there too!!!!
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Offline IanJ

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Re: 3458A - black edition
« Reply #44 on: November 27, 2019, 12:14:36 pm »
Here are some pictures I took of the new 3458A - Black Edition - at the Munich trade show last week at the Keysight exhibition stand.

I was there too!!!!

Couldn't anyone have taken a screwdriver to it when the staff were on their lunch break......😀

Ian.
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: 3458A - black edition
« Reply #45 on: November 27, 2019, 04:23:15 pm »
zucca:
We should have arranged a meeting.
May be next year.

IanJ:
I asked to see the inside, they laughed.
It even had a padlock, LOL !
There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can not.
 
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Offline Dr. Frank

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Re: 3458A - black edition
« Reply #46 on: December 02, 2019, 10:07:52 am »
Since yesterday, 1st December, only the Black edition 3458A is offered, worldwide.
The old white instrument as well as the EU stock have been removed from all of their websites.

Frank
 

Online iMo

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Re: 3458A - black edition
« Reply #47 on: December 02, 2019, 11:14:20 am »
Couldn't anyone have taken a screwdriver to it when the staff were on their lunch break......😀
All we need now is a screwdriver..  :D
 

Offline branadic

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Re: 3458A - black edition
« Reply #48 on: December 02, 2019, 09:36:59 pm »
I have seen new A1, A3 and A5 board today. Great work  :-+

-branadic-
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Offline niner_007

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Re: 3458A - black edition
« Reply #49 on: December 03, 2019, 03:13:44 am »
Couldn't anyone have taken a screwdriver to it when the staff were on their lunch break......😀
All we need now is a screwdriver..  :D
Two screwdrivers ;)
 


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