Author Topic: Agilent 3458A Repair  (Read 6935 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline IanJ

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 975
  • Country: scotland
  • Pro EE guy many years ago, now a hobby/home biz.
    • IanJohnston.com
Agilent 3458A Repair
« on: July 09, 2018, 06:42:33 pm »
Hi all,

I broke a major rule with this purchase. I was contacted out of the blue from somebody I didn't know who said they were selling a 3458A located 1000's of miles from me overseas. Normally one would run a mile but I decided to humour the guy and asked for photos, then more photos and more of an explanation.

They said they had powered it up with the AC selector in the wrong position and blew up the power supply. It's fixed now apparently and one of the photos he did send me showed it powered up, "ISOLATOR FAILURE" on the display. They said one of the optic cables melted during the power supply issue. Internal photos I received showed the cable missing.
The story of the power supply failure looked like it might be true as some of the rectifier diodes looked like they had recently been changed out.

So I kinda knew there was no way I was buying it, even if faulty, drifty etc etc it would still be worth a lot................and I couldn't/wouldn't insult them by offering a pittance, but eventually they gave me a price.......600 USD (£452).
They wanted payment by PayPal and after a good lot of checking including contacting PayPal direct I understood I was completely covered as the buyer even if a bunch of bricks in a box arrived..........so I went ahead and bought it!

It arrived today, here's some pics. NB. I have fitted a replacement fibre cable already (I purchased from AB ahead of today).

The only thing I see it's missing is the rear fuse holder.

So now I am hoping for guidance from you guys on how to proceed with power up........I don't know much about 3458A internals, just the basics (I do have my own HP 3458A).
I am thinking power up with the psu outputs pulled etc etc........but please give me some guidance.

PS. I do have the bottom shield and covers, just removed for the pics.

Ian.











« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 06:47:11 pm by IanJ »
Ian Johnston
www.ianjohnston.com
Manufacturer of the PDVS2
 
The following users thanked this post: TiN

Offline TiN

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3996
  • Country: tw
  • xDevs.com/live - 24/7 lab feed
    • xDevs.com
Re: Agilent 3458A Repair
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2018, 07:48:55 pm »
 :-+ Sounds like the very story of my first rusty friend : https://xdevs.com/fix/hp3458a/.
You looking at 400$ for transformer. Even then at 600$ this deal is "buy first, ask questions later".

If you feeling it's too much for you, I can help you to get rid of the meter, even pay double for it. Like TheSteve say, i have no limits to my greed.  >:D

Isolator failure means analog power is missing/broken or CPU cannot communicate with A3 ADC MCU over the fiber. If transformer is melted due to overload, then inguard power could do all kind of fun to the analog boards.

Also it is strange meter, perhaps refurb unit. A6 board is still old, but rest is newer.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 07:50:32 pm by TiN »
YouTube | Chat room | Live-cam | Have documentation to share? Upload here! No size limit, firmware dumps, photos.
 

Offline zucca

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1890
  • Country: it
  • EE meid in Itali
Re: Agilent 3458A Repair
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2018, 07:53:31 pm »
Congrats, nice Ferrari for your garage.

what's the brown material on the the blue elco cap 35VDC? It looks horrible.



After replacing the dead parts and the paffner AC filter, I would power up that beast slowly with an AC variable trafo, checking temperatures with an infrared camera and current absorbed.
Please consider me not a 3458A  expert, I am trying to use common sense here.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 08:07:23 pm by zucca »
Can't know what you don't love. St. Augustine
Can't love what you don't know. Zucca
 

Offline TiN

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3996
  • Country: tw
  • xDevs.com/live - 24/7 lab feed
    • xDevs.com
Re: Agilent 3458A Repair
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2018, 08:20:28 pm »
Goo on 8200uF blue cap is just from adhesive tape. Now after second look trafo death is most probable, as same protection zeners are cooked on A4 PSU board, as they were on mine.
Easy fix after you get new transformer from Keysight. Somebody also gutted key caps for guard/terminal switch rods, those caps are indeed not original.

And if you did not take ADC A3 cover off, that part is missing too.
YouTube | Chat room | Live-cam | Have documentation to share? Upload here! No size limit, firmware dumps, photos.
 

Offline IanJ

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 975
  • Country: scotland
  • Pro EE guy many years ago, now a hobby/home biz.
    • IanJohnston.com
Re: Agilent 3458A Repair
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2018, 03:40:06 am »
Hi all,

Tests/checks/findings so far:-

1. Earth spade connector on input filter broken - Fixed, it had been soldered on and broken, so just soldered it back.
2. Top shield missing - Has anyone got one for sale PM me.
3. Fuse holder cap missing - RS looks like have the FAU fuseholders so have purchased.
4. Air filter disintegrated on removal/cleaning - Have fixed one up.
5. Transformer secondaries look intact, at least not open circuit, readings per xDevs site so far.
6. R207 - Vishay 80436 VHP101
7. NVRam Snapchat battery date codes = 942 = 2009 Week 42

Hires photos - https://www.dropbox.com/sh/krj8v3jf78fjtp0/AACW4Qkzwr9_5oM_94BtfORqa?dl=0.

No power up yet, I'll leave that till I get the fuse holder cap.

Ian.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 06:15:53 am by IanJ »
Ian Johnston
www.ianjohnston.com
Manufacturer of the PDVS2
 
The following users thanked this post: TiN

Offline martinr33

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 183
  • Country: us
Re: Agilent 3458A Repair
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2018, 10:49:29 am »
Once you are confident that the voltages are good - nyou might try switching boards into your working unit, if it is not calibration sealed.

Or - the PSU boards are nothing special, you can disconnect them, and fix them up for the correct voltages. With that done, you can get into the rest of the unit.

The ADC is recent enough that it should not have the drift issues.

There's a cap on how much you want to spend - for $2700, HP will do you a full refurb. Two boards and sundries will run you that. On the other hand, except for the ADC, the boards have common, if obsolete, parts.

One of the neat things about these units is that the processor board gets all its internal connections through a single IDC cable  - and half the wires are grounds. Lots of serial activity here, ripe for a good hack.
 

Offline IanJ

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 975
  • Country: scotland
  • Pro EE guy many years ago, now a hobby/home biz.
    • IanJohnston.com
Re: Agilent 3458A Repair
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2018, 02:48:13 am »
Hi all,

So my fuse cap came from RS so was able to power up......here's my findings 5mins in:-

First power up, errors straight away, either one of the following, sometimes appear after a Vdc reading appears on display, sometimes before:
System error 114 multislope rundown convergence
System error 114 balanced rundown convergence

Ignoring the above straight to first PSU checks:

Power Supply checks:-
Outguard Psu (5v) = 5.08V
Outguard C8 =   18.78v
Outguard U200 = not sure where to measure but display works so assume ok
Inguard A1 main pcb (-10v) = -9.79v
Inguard A1 main pcb (+18v) = +18.42v
Inguard A1 main pcb (-18v) = -18.50v
Inguard A1 main pcb (+5v) +4.98v

Did a quick test by applying 10.0000Vdc to input and the reading gave 10.25Vdc

If I run RESET the 3458A I may get some continious readings but then it beeps and stops updating, sometime quickly, sometimes after 10secs or so.

Running TEST I get self test failed at TEST DCV 10V and with "Error 209, Hardware Failure Timeout unable to read A/D 108"

Thermal camera images attached (after 30mins power up), the components in red are warm, to touch, some are quite warm to touch verging hot. Hottest being 43degC.

Ian.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 03:29:19 am by IanJ »
Ian Johnston
www.ianjohnston.com
Manufacturer of the PDVS2
 

Offline TiN

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3996
  • Country: tw
  • xDevs.com/live - 24/7 lab feed
    • xDevs.com
Re: Agilent 3458A Repair
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2018, 03:45:59 am »
Quote
System error 114 multislope rundown convergence
System error 114 balanced rundown convergence

Sorry to hear. Now Keysight is your only friend, with new A3 ADC board (~1300$). Very tiny chance this could be Elantec comparator, but wouldn't have hopes up.
You can indeed confirm that U180 ASIC is bad on A3 by measuring with your working 3458A reference +12, -12V and +5V voltages on A3. Example details here.
YouTube | Chat room | Live-cam | Have documentation to share? Upload here! No size limit, firmware dumps, photos.
 

Offline IanJ

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 975
  • Country: scotland
  • Pro EE guy many years ago, now a hobby/home biz.
    • IanJohnston.com
Re: Agilent 3458A Repair
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2018, 04:13:48 am »
Quote
System error 114 multislope rundown convergence
System error 114 balanced rundown convergence

Sorry to hear. Now Keysight is your only friend, with new A3 ADC board (~1300$). Very tiny chance this could be Elantec comparator, but wouldn't have hopes up.
You can indeed confirm that U180 ASIC is bad on A3 by measuring with your working 3458A reference +12, -12V and +5V voltages on A3. Example details here.

What doesn't look good is the EL2252 dual comparator as it is running quite hot, over 70degC and looking at the spec it's a 70degC IC......Hmmmm!
I will try replacing this first before I hit the schematics/scope and try to understand whats going on. I like the early gut feeling approach first......:-)

Ian.
Ian Johnston
www.ianjohnston.com
Manufacturer of the PDVS2
 

Offline quarks

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 821
  • Country: de
Re: Agilent 3458A Repair
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2018, 04:17:56 am »
Hello Ian,

if you have a second working 3458A you can swap A3 board and see if errors go away.
If more than on board needs to be replaced I would ask Keysight how much a full repair with calibration is.
And then decide if that is a better deal.

Good luck

 

Offline IanJ

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 975
  • Country: scotland
  • Pro EE guy many years ago, now a hobby/home biz.
    • IanJohnston.com
Re: Agilent 3458A Repair
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2018, 04:19:47 am »
Hi,

For now I don't want to go near my working 3458A.......it's used most days to test my PDVS2 refs.

I checked the A3 board references and they are spot on. +12v, -12v & +5v.

A few EL2252CM comparators now on order........

Ian.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 04:24:25 am by IanJ »
Ian Johnston
www.ianjohnston.com
Manufacturer of the PDVS2
 

Offline TiN

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3996
  • Country: tw
  • xDevs.com/live - 24/7 lab feed
    • xDevs.com
Re: Agilent 3458A Repair
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2018, 04:47:04 am »
I doubt they are spot on, you cannot say that without doing datalog over few hours. Read my articles, I had same issues before. Absolute value if those reference voltages does not matter, ADC working with charge, not voltage potential. What matters is the stability of those reference levels. Because they are formed by same part of U180 resistor network, drifty faulty u180 usually shows up as change in ref levels. You must use stable ppm-resolution meter to measure those, hence the second 3458. No need to take working instrument apart (!).

And before all that, drift is not the main problem with your U180 anyway. Set NPLC 0.001. Likely it will work fine for long time in fast slope mode ;).
YouTube | Chat room | Live-cam | Have documentation to share? Upload here! No size limit, firmware dumps, photos.
 

Offline Kleinstein

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5970
  • Country: de
Re: Agilent 3458A Repair
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2018, 04:55:09 am »
These comparators use quite some power, and if  run from +-15 V they will get hot. The 70 C spec is for the environment, the case will get hotter quite a bit.

For testing U180, the point would be to measure the +12 V,-12 V and maybe the -5V and 7 V reference of the broken DMM. If these voltages (and especially there ratio) shows a significant drift (e.g. more than 1 ppm/week) U180 is likely broken. This test needs some time in between.
I see no real need to measure inside the good 3458, it's more like using the good 3458 to measure those voltages.
 

Offline IanJ

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 975
  • Country: scotland
  • Pro EE guy many years ago, now a hobby/home biz.
    • IanJohnston.com
Re: Agilent 3458A Repair
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2018, 05:01:41 am »
I doubt they are spot on, you cannot say that without doing datalog over few hours. Read my articles, I had same issues before. Absolute value if those reference voltages does not matter, ADC working with charge, not voltage potential. What matters is the stability of those reference levels. Because they are formed by same part of U180 resistor network, drifty faulty u180 usually shows up as change in ref levels. You must use stable ppm-resolution meter to measure those, hence the second 3458. No need to take working instrument apart (!).

And before all that, drift is not the main problem with your U180 anyway. Set NPLC 0.001. Likely it will work fine for long time in fast slope mode ;).

Ok, I read you wrong......I thought you were meaning the reference voltages would be dead if A3 board was faulty........I haven't looked at the schematic yet......and yes drift is a key aspect to look at. I am looking forward to getting it up & running and testing this.

For now I am leaving it powered down until I replace the comparitor, I am not happy to see the IC running at over 70degC.

xDevs.com is a magnificent resource, I am in and out of there all the time this past 24hrs....:-)

PS. My long term goal is to get this 3458A up & running then calibrated at Keysight, then sell one of the 3458A's (I don't need two!!!)..........and probably get a 34470A which will suit my day-to-day and workshop layout better.

Ian.
Ian Johnston
www.ianjohnston.com
Manufacturer of the PDVS2
 

Offline chuckb

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 232
  • Country: us
Re: Agilent 3458A Repair
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2018, 06:10:33 am »
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/repair-old-rusty-hp-3458a/msg808569/#msg808569

On TiNs thermal photographs the comparitor was running around 65 deg C.
 
The following users thanked this post: TiN

Offline TiN

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3996
  • Country: tw
  • xDevs.com/live - 24/7 lab feed
    • xDevs.com
Re: Agilent 3458A Repair
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2018, 02:20:08 pm »
Yep, those comparators running warm, it's normal. It's unlikely that newer 2252 is fail though.

Quote
PS. My long term goal is to get this 3458A up & running then calibrated at Keysight, then sell one of the 3458A's (I don't need two!!!)..........and probably get a 34470A which will suit my day-to-day and workshop layout better.
Selling sounds like a mistake to me, but who am I to tell :).

If you want to get it calibrated by KS, then whole option sending the box to them for full repair + cal begin to make sense, as you need new ADC anyway, and who knows what else.
YouTube | Chat room | Live-cam | Have documentation to share? Upload here! No size limit, firmware dumps, photos.
 

Offline IanJ

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 975
  • Country: scotland
  • Pro EE guy many years ago, now a hobby/home biz.
    • IanJohnston.com
Re: Agilent 3458A Repair
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2018, 08:08:41 pm »
Thanks for all your help guys so far, this is fun!

I had an hour this morning so got my isolation transformer and scope set up and started probing A3. The comparator output seems active, normally high then when run test or reset i see some activity.
Plan is to start understanding how it works and take it from there.
Last resort if i am honest is to send to Keysight for repair, i want to explore other avenues first.

Ian.
Ian Johnston
www.ianjohnston.com
Manufacturer of the PDVS2
 

Offline Kleinstein

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5970
  • Country: de
Re: Agilent 3458A Repair
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2018, 08:48:04 pm »
For testing the DMM, there is no absolute need to use an isolation transformer. The inguard part is supposed to be isolated already with a high quality transformer. It would be more like using an isolation tester to check if the transformer is still OK after some possible over-voltage and thus maybe high temperature.

With the shown error messages a drifted U180 hybrid is a very real possibility, which would mean a new ADC board to repair. As TiN noted already a very fast mode might still work. If it does this would also point towards U180 trouble - other faults would likely also effect the fast mode. Looking at the drift of the +-12 V is one of the easiest ways to check.

If it still works in the fast mode, this might be used if the rest (e.g. amps, Ohms ?) still works.
 
The following users thanked this post: TiN

Offline TiN

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3996
  • Country: tw
  • xDevs.com/live - 24/7 lab feed
    • xDevs.com
Re: Agilent 3458A Repair
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2018, 10:50:07 pm »
Kleinstein, all functions base of VDC, so from if ADC not converging properly, than none of that will work either.
I'd pretty sure Ian's ADC have FET charge switches in U180 bad as well, so drift test may not even show anything. It's just usual that when U180 goes bad, than whole thing goes haywire, not only resistor network or only FET switches (there are two dies inside U180).

I have three dead A3's , one of which drifty and two have convergence problems. One of these U180's was sent to plesa for SEM imagery, but he's busy/lost it/forgot it  :-DD.
YouTube | Chat room | Live-cam | Have documentation to share? Upload here! No size limit, firmware dumps, photos.
 

Offline IanJ

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 975
  • Country: scotland
  • Pro EE guy many years ago, now a hobby/home biz.
    • IanJohnston.com
Re: Agilent 3458A Repair
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2018, 01:05:06 am »
Set NPLC 0.001. Likely it will work fine for long time in fast slope mode ;).

Seems to run ok continiously with .001 NPLC (VDC & Ohms), then as soon as then set to 0.01 it will run for 10secs or so then stop with a beep.
NB. Cal is way off (but least of problems), 10.0000 Vdc applied, 10.19XXXX reading.

Ian.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 01:08:03 am by IanJ »
Ian Johnston
www.ianjohnston.com
Manufacturer of the PDVS2
 

Offline TiN

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3996
  • Country: tw
  • xDevs.com/live - 24/7 lab feed
    • xDevs.com
Re: Agilent 3458A Repair
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2018, 02:58:54 am »
Okay, then EL2522 is working fine, and your issue are indeed sick U180. Welcome to "new A3 ADC club".  :-BROKE
YouTube | Chat room | Live-cam | Have documentation to share? Upload here! No size limit, firmware dumps, photos.
 
The following users thanked this post: IanJ

Offline IanJ

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 975
  • Country: scotland
  • Pro EE guy many years ago, now a hobby/home biz.
    • IanJohnston.com
Re: Agilent 3458A Repair
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2018, 03:46:25 am »
Ok folks........so I am contacting Keysight to get some options and prices. It's a pity they won't sell U180's on their own, would have been fun to replace it.........maybe they have limited qty's.

Do I get a "new A3 ADC club" badge or T-shirt...... ;D

Ian.
Ian Johnston
www.ianjohnston.com
Manufacturer of the PDVS2
 

Offline retroware

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 18
  • Country: us
Re: Agilent 3458A Repair
« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2018, 10:46:15 am »
Having just joined the 'new A3' club I can pass along my experience.

I purchased a late 1990s vintage 3458 for around $2k. Advertised as passing self test and auto cal which it did indeed do when it arrived.  The first thing I did was:

Monitored it against my relatively stable 731B
Started doing a daily CAL?72 check

Sure enough, the CAL72 value was drifting down at a fairly steady rate of around .75ppm per day. In addition, the 731B voltage was drifting up about the same rate.  Performing an ACAL would immediately drop the measured voltage down to the expected value. Thus, I was fairly sure I had the dreaded drifty A3 disease.
 
So I contacted Keysight and arranged an A3 exchange. The initial cost is $1486 but they supposedly refund $286 if you return the old board.  Good news, free shipping :)

The board was backordered for about 3 weeks, during which I continued to monitor the CAL72 value.  The drift seem to slow a bit and sometimes time flattened out but still, over 3 weeks, was out of spec with regards to the service note.

My new A3 arrived a couple of days ago and was about a 20 minute swap out. The first couple of days of CAL72 numbers are now down in the .05ppm/day range.  In addition, measuring both my 731B and 5440B confirm the stability of both of the those sources and the 3458.  So far, I'm a very happy with the replacement.

I haven't yet sent back the old A3.  In fact, there was no prepaid label or other instruction on how to do so.  Supposedly, I have 30 days to figure it out.

I would really love to know what causes these A3 units to drift.  Mine was drifting pretty darn linearly regardless of whether it was powered on or not. 

 
The following users thanked this post: IanJ, TiN

Offline TiN

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3996
  • Country: tw
  • xDevs.com/live - 24/7 lab feed
    • xDevs.com
Re: Agilent 3458A Repair
« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2018, 11:21:31 am »
Quote
I would really love to know what causes these A3 units to drift.  Mine was drifting pretty darn linearly regardless of whether it was powered on or not.

This little guy is the drift reason  >:D. I spend few hundred hours trying to patch a solution to no avail:



YouTube | Chat room | Live-cam | Have documentation to share? Upload here! No size limit, firmware dumps, photos.
 
The following users thanked this post: dr.diesel, Muxr

Offline martinr33

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 183
  • Country: us
Re: Agilent 3458A Repair
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2018, 12:26:32 pm »
Ian. one thing you should do is run the full autocal, if you have not done so.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf