Author Topic: BG7TBL FA1 and FA2 frequency analyzers  (Read 83971 times)

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Offline jpb

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Re: BG7TBL FA1 and FA2 frequency analyzers
« Reply #175 on: January 04, 2020, 02:57:01 pm »
You can give a practical example for regression? I know this document but I failed to get any improvement using a lot of timestamps.
The FCA3100 has smart frequency measurements which uses time stamps and regression for gate times between 0.1 and 100 secs. In theory it should increase the resolution (you're using all the points not just the end points), but my practical experience has been similar to yours. The results are a bit smoother so I tend to keep it turned on but it doesn't make a major difference. It might do so more at a gate of 100 secs rather than the 1 sec I use.
 

Offline edigi

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Re: BG7TBL FA1 and FA2 frequency analyzers
« Reply #176 on: January 04, 2020, 06:09:22 pm »
You can give a practical example for regression? I know this document but I failed to get any improvement using a lot of timestamps.

It\s not entirely clear to me what you mean by practical example. Is it about how it works or is it about what its used for?

Anyhow finding good (low phase noise) signal source is harder than the implementation itself.
This can be one very important factor why you cannot see improvement. Already 11 digits/s requires a good low phase noise SC cut OCXO (none of my TCXOs are good enough for this; OCXOs are OK).
I don't know what kind of reference and signal source of the author of that paper has used, as flicker free 12 digits/s requires clean signals that in my view are not easily obtainable on hobbyist level (I'm not willing to spend big amount of money on this). Let's not consider measuring own reference here as it can be misleading.

As for the implementation: Like described in the paper, huge amount of timestamps are needed for the measurement duration, let's say for 1 sec. If only one measurement is done, the time difference between the signal edge end the reference edge can be measured by the steps given by the TDC7200 that is ranging somewhere 54-57ps (actually the difference of 2 of such timestamps need to be used), influenced also by noise (that can kick some of the TDC measurement to near neighbor bin).  That's the resolution of the measurement.
If time-stamping is continuously done and the signal and the reference is not phase coherent, there will be semi-random time differences between the signal edge and the reference edge. Those are still measured in discrete steps due to the TDC limitation but when statistics of those sufficiently distant (corresponding to measurement nominal duration) timestamps are done, it can resolve beyond the discrete step possible by the TDC.

Several commercial/branded frequency analyzers that have time interval resolution only somewhere between the 20-100ps range can do significantly better resolution due to statistics. The single timestamp resolution of FA2 is significantly worse, thus the statistics improved resolution also doesn't come close to the state of the art equipments. For hobbyist use however in my view it's still good value (IMHO actually beyond the need of most hobbyist and even TDC7200 based ones are pretty good without any statistics), especially that hobbyist typically don't have access to very good phase noise signal sources.
As for practical use it allows easy and quick analyses of most signal (or frequency reference) sources.
 
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Offline mino-fm

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Re: BG7TBL FA1 and FA2 frequency analyzers
« Reply #177 on: January 04, 2020, 08:55:12 pm »
It\s not entirely clear to me what you mean by practical example. Is it about how it works or is it about what its used for?

Maybe some kind of code that shows that it works. Many people are talking about timestamps and linear regression, but I want to see a positive result.  I'm still thinking that FA2 is working just that way.
As 'jpg' wrote above, in best case I get a little bit of smoothing the readings. But with fast sampling time of 1 MS/s I would expect two or three more digits. If you are interested I could show you my code for STM32H7, but it does not give any improvement.

Phase noise of TCXO or OCXO is not the problem, because I only want to improve 8 digits/s to 10 digits/s.
Using TDC7200 and STM32 I've no problem to get stable 10 digits/s - at any frequency.
 

Offline jpb

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Re: BG7TBL FA1 and FA2 frequency analyzers
« Reply #178 on: January 04, 2020, 10:02:06 pm »
The statistics of the variance of the slope is more complicated than I remember, e.g. see:
https://www.seas.upenn.edu/~ese302/extra_mtls/Regression_Notes.pdf
so it is not easy to see how much of an improvement it gives without sticking numbers in.
 

Offline Grandchuck

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Re: BG7TBL FA1 and FA2 frequency analyzers
« Reply #179 on: January 05, 2020, 03:32:36 pm »
My FA-2 arrived yesterday and it seems to work well.  Noticed something interesting:  tipping it about 30 degrees changes the displayed frequency about 8 mHz at 10 MHz.  A web search found this:  https://www.vectron.com/products/g_sensitivity/gsensitivity_index.htm

There is a link there with a slide series by John R. Vig.  I have attached one slide.

Wow, lots of metrologic fun for about $100!
 

Offline BiggieJohn

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Re: BG7TBL FA1 and FA2 frequency analyzers
« Reply #180 on: January 05, 2020, 04:28:14 pm »
My FA-2 arrived yesterday and it seems to work well.  Noticed something interesting:  tipping it about 30 degrees changes the displayed frequency about 8 mHz at 10 MHz.  A web search found this:  https://www.vectron.com/products/g_sensitivity/gsensitivity_index.htm

There is a link there with a slide series by John R. Vig.  I have attached one slide.

Wow, lots of metrologic fun for about $100!

Dave did a video about this in EEVblog episode #646
aspiring time nut, datacenter tech, HAM general class
 

Offline Diabolo

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Re: BG7TBL FA1 and FA2 frequency analyzers
« Reply #181 on: January 06, 2020, 12:53:10 pm »
Hello,

Here is the explanation of the 3 switches not wired on the front of the FA-2.
BG7TBL seems to use the same front / display on several of its devices, including the 1Hz-8gHz generator WB-SG1 which has 6 switches on the front.

WB-SG1 generator link: https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/4000468601984.html?spm=a2g0w.12010615.8148356.22.11f0d5c7pfHHq1



Diabolo
« Last Edit: January 07, 2020, 02:26:22 am by Diabolo »
 

Offline Grandchuck

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Re: BG7TBL FA1 and FA2 frequency analyzers
« Reply #182 on: January 07, 2020, 06:52:23 pm »
Learned some more:
 
1/ Other ovenized xtal oscillators are noticeably less sensitive to rotation when compared to the internal reference in the FA-2.
2/ Comparing a Morion unit to an Isotemp showed the Morion to be noticeably more stable.  The stability of the Morion is shown in the attached file.

The Morion is an XO00281M-CT-MV89 and the Isotemp is a OCXO44-12.

A rubidium reference was used for the data collected.
 

Offline ArthurDent

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Re: BG7TBL FA1 and FA2 frequency analyzers
« Reply #183 on: January 20, 2020, 03:31:56 am »
The FA-2 looked very interesting to me so after searching on eBay for some time I found one about 400 miles from where I live in New Hampshire. At $104 delivered I couldn't pass it up and 3 days after buying it, I had it in hand. It doesn't look that bad but I do plan to add a dual diode and resistor to CH2. Here's a photo of it counting its own timebase @10S.
 

Offline Diabolo

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Re: BG7TBL FA1 and FA2 frequency analyzers
« Reply #184 on: January 23, 2020, 11:59:21 pm »
Hello,

CH2 signal input protection against excessive levels. Modification of the CH2 input level of the FA-2:
1x HSMS 8102 diode (dual diode schottky 10 GHz) on the space provided.
1x 47 Ohm (cms 0805) and the recovered ceramic input capacitor (cms 0603) welded in line above the board.
The 47 Ohm resistor was chosen at random without looking for any input impedance.

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Diabolo
« Last Edit: April 08, 2020, 01:29:00 am by Diabolo »
 

Offline Diabolo

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Re: BG7TBL FA1 and FA2 frequency analyzers
« Reply #185 on: January 24, 2020, 12:09:06 am »
After.

Presentation of the WG-SG1 signal generator, from 1Hz to 8GHz, which can be modulated on CH2, and sweep mode on the 2 channels.
Locations are free of components, some for signal level adjustment options, etc.
The CH1 square wave (3.3V) and CH2 (0 dBm, 225mV) signal pure wave, or adjustable modulated wave, signal output level are fixed and not adjustable.

Main board:


Main board CH2:



Edit:
Following numerous requests, the WB-SG1 generator can be purchased from this serious seller for +/- 145 $ / 135 €, fast delivery without problem. Ask for the power supply adapter plug for your country.
Advice: also plan the purchase of some SMA attenuators to adjust the output signal according to your needs.
- https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/4000468601984.html?spm=a2g0w.12010615.8148356.22.11f0d5c7pfHHq1


Diabolo
« Last Edit: January 24, 2020, 12:10:33 pm by Diabolo »
 

Offline EV

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Re: BG7TBL FA1 and FA2 frequency analyzers
« Reply #186 on: January 24, 2020, 11:36:57 am »
Have you found how this modulation frequecy is set? There is ON/OFF option on CH2 and modulation frequency should be set between 1Hz-1MHz, but how?


Presentation of the WG-SG1 signal generator, from 1Hz to 8GHz, which can be modulated on CH2, and sweep mode on the 2 channels.
...
Diabolo
 

Offline Grandchuck

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Offline Diabolo

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Re: BG7TBL FA1 and FA2 frequency analyzers
« Reply #188 on: January 24, 2020, 12:27:08 pm »
Have you found how this modulation frequecy is set? There is ON/OFF option on CH2 and modulation frequency should be set between 1Hz-1MHz, but how?


Presentation of the WG-SG1 signal generator, from 1Hz to 8GHz, which can be modulated on CH2, and sweep mode on the 2 channels.
...
Diabolo

Hello,

The CH2 modulation frequency is set via CH1. You normally enter a frequency on CH1 as if you wanted to use this frequency on CH1, and this frequency entered on CH1 will be that for CH2 modulation.

Regards.
Diabolo
 
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Offline EV

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Re: BG7TBL FA1 and FA2 frequency analyzers
« Reply #189 on: January 24, 2020, 05:35:03 pm »
OK, Thanks Grandchuck and Diabolo!
 

Offline Diabolo

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Re: BG7TBL FA1 and FA2 frequency analyzers
« Reply #190 on: January 28, 2020, 08:34:22 am »
Hello,

No one has anything new to announce about the FA-2?

Regards.
Diabolo
 

Offline EV

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Re: BG7TBL FA1 and FA2 frequency analyzers
« Reply #191 on: January 29, 2020, 04:52:51 pm »
I got this 12.4 GHz version today. There is no date text after BG7TBL on the front panel.
Here are pictures from the prescaler:
 

Offline Diabolo

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Re: BG7TBL FA1 and FA2 frequency analyzers
« Reply #192 on: January 29, 2020, 09:24:34 pm »
Hello,

The prescaler is different and its reference seems to have been deleted, and C4 is massing strangely

Diabolo
 

Offline EV

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Re: BG7TBL FA1 and FA2 frequency analyzers
« Reply #193 on: January 30, 2020, 12:01:17 pm »
This my new 12.4GHz version looks to be more accurate than my old 6GHz version. With 10s gate time Avg is only 0.0015 mHz high.

Here are pictures when same 10 MHz signal is connected to EXT-REF and CH1. With 10s gate time Avg is about 0.02 mHz high and with 1s gate time 0.2 mHz high.
 

Offline Diabolo

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Re: BG7TBL FA1 and FA2 frequency analyzers
« Reply #194 on: January 31, 2020, 03:29:42 pm »
Hello,

The CH2 input stage still has no overload protection.

Diabolo
 

Offline Jarl

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Re: BG7TBL FA1 and FA2 frequency analyzers
« Reply #195 on: February 27, 2020, 07:50:01 pm »
Hello,

The CH2 input stage still has no overload protection.

Diabolo

I agree, and what makes it worse: The input present some undefined high impedance at the CH2 input connector, similar to the problem with 6 GHz version, and the CH2 connector center pin is connected directly to the anonymous prescaler chip via a 100 pF series capacitor. 

As a safety measure I have soldered a 56 ohm SMD resistor directly across the pins of the CH2 input connector. It will of course not be 56 ohms at 12 GHz but hopefully it will be better than nothing.

According to the brief specification for the FA-2 in the advertisments of the 12 GHz version the CH2 input is designed for an input range of -20 dBm to + 13 dBm @ 0.5 to 5 GHz. Until further information is available you are free to guess what is permitted from 30 MHz to 500 MHz and from 5 GHz upwards...

Please also note, that the permitted input range for CH1 has been changed recently for the 6 GHz version. The max input is now specified as 2V RMS in both high impedance and in 50 ohm mode. The same values applies to the 12 GHz version.

As a final remark I can confirm the observation of EV: The 12 GHz version with firmware 2019 12 24 is indeed more accurate than the 6 GHz version. With an external standard connected to ref input and to CH1 input I get offsets in the single digit microhertz range when averaging 1 sec. readings for some time until a stable display is available. It will be interesting to see to what degree this accuracy is present when doing tests on independent sources.

Jarl
« Last Edit: February 27, 2020, 08:45:57 pm by Jarl »
 

Offline apblog

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Re: BG7TBL FA1 and FA2 frequency analyzers
« Reply #196 on: April 05, 2020, 02:00:05 am »
I just posted some general questions in the test equipment forum (edit: moved to the metrology forum) but I have some specific questions for you guys.

For a 12GHz FA-2:

How long does it take to get a reading at 0.01 Hz accuracy on a 25MHz signal?

How long does it take to warm up when paired with a BG7TBL GPSDO?

How difficult/inconvenient is it to use for general purpose work?

Thanks.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2020, 02:24:07 am by apblog »
 

Offline mankan

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Re: BG7TBL FA1 and FA2 frequency analyzers
« Reply #197 on: April 05, 2020, 11:30:22 am »
I started out adding input protection to channel 2 on my FA-2 6GHz. Added a HSMS8202 dual schottky diode and a 49.9 Ohm 0805 resistor but I slipped with the tweezers so now I've lost the input capacitor. What is a suitable value? I have 360pF and 1000pF available in 0603.
 

Offline mankan

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Re: BG7TBL FA1 and FA2 frequency analyzers
« Reply #198 on: April 05, 2020, 01:42:30 pm »
I took the 360pF one and measured channel 2 input sensitivity.
MHzdBm
200-21
1000-29
3000-28
4000-25
5000-15
60000

Then I added the 1000pF too, same results though. And I know now that I should have done these measurements before I started the whole thing.  |O

Still interested to hear about the original value.
 

Offline Jarl

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Re: BG7TBL FA1 and FA2 frequency analyzers
« Reply #199 on: April 05, 2020, 02:19:49 pm »
Mankan,

As stated in reply 195 above, the capacitor in series with the CH 2 input has a value of 100 pF.

Good luck with the repair.

Cheers

Jarl
 


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