I agree, the specs seem hard to believe but I am willing to give it a go and see if it meets their claims. I can easily measure and test it out to 6 digits or more if needed. I want to see how stable it is over a week, month even longer. Although I won't wait that long to post my review! ;D
I've found the reference, on page 51 of the massive Ultra Precision Reference LTZ1000 thread :
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/ultra-precision-reference-ltz1000/750/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/ultra-precision-reference-ltz1000/750/)
it is the same ebay seller. It might be worth re-reading the earlier comments.
+- 2 ppm absolute accuracy sounds extremely unlikely, both due to the price and the reference used.
100$ ... Give it a try.. If you're able to verify it.
Personally, I doubt the performance , once from the capabilities of these refs, 2nd because the description is too enthusiastic, and there's a strange list of compensation features... Like these guys, which claimed supercaps from nanoparticles, and Free Energy, and so on.
You know, they all simply use common terminus technicus / pseudo scientific terms in such descriptions , without really bring able to implement these...
At least, if this community would be able to prove this gadget to not fulfill the claimed specs, you may blame him afterwards.
I also offer to check this circuit to ppm uncertainty.
Frank
+- 2 ppm absolute accuracy sounds extremely unlikely, both due to the price and the reference used.
Yes. All these would have to be extensively hand characterised and aged to guarantee this spec. Don't know how that can be done for the money.
Dave, maybe I can buy another and donate it to the EEVBlog for you to tear into it! Don't you have an HP 8 1/2? 8)
Personally, I doubt the performance , once from the capabilities of these refs, 2nd because the description is too enthusiastic, and there's a strange list of compensation features... Like these guys, which claimed supercaps from nanoparticles, and Free Energy, and so on.
I just ordered one unit and asked a few questions and this was the answer:
Quote:
The reference ICs are burned in for ~1,000 hours prior to use. But that is to produce good "long-term" stability. The +-2ppm figure is the maximum error. To get that we use temperature-compensation. It took about three years to develop the device. I have a scientific background. So, I only had to learn the application side.
It's basically just inspiration + education + resource + experience + planning + trial and error + persistence + good equipment + common sense + hard work + prayer = good results. It's not a nuts and bolts kind of explanation I can give, because each unit is custom made. These items cannot be mass-produced. And that's part of the secret! The Fluke 732A is like that. They were all handmade.
Magic is science not yet understood. There is so much innovation in this product that it appears to be magic. But it does work as specified. I hope you can understand that our device is protected by trade-secret in construction and calibration. Therefore, I cannot reveal everything about the device.
Thank you for your inquiry, and for your purchase.
End-Quote
Well, we will see how good it is, when it arrives.
The reply of the seller, while long, contains little information except for the usual feeble "I have been doing this for X years, I don't have to explain to you, because I know what I'm doing" argument.
My most reliable instrument to measure this standard, is a calibrated Agilent 34410A (3 ppm accuracy in 1 year)
Once I get it, I will take some measurements and keep it running over a longer period.
With all our data of at least 2 units we should be able to determine if this system is stable.
I would not like to pre-judge it before we have any test data.
Respectfully, don't you mean 30 ppm? ;DMy finger was too fast, of course it is 30ppm (0.0030% +0.0005% in one year), thanks for correcting it.
Respectfully, don't you mean 30 ppm? ;DMy finger was too fast, of course it is 30ppm (0.0030% +0.0005% in one year), thanks for correcting it.
Looking forward to your results on the 34461A and the 34401A
Will you use BenchVue to collect the data?
The basic problem is, that they claim features / specs which hardly anybody can really check.Respectfully, don't you mean 30 ppm? ;DMy finger was too fast, of course it is 30ppm (0.0030% +0.0005% in one year), thanks for correcting it.
Looking forward to your results on the 34461A and the 34401A
Will you use BenchVue to collect the data?
The basic problem is, that they claim features / specs which hardly anybody can really check.Respectfully, don't you mean 30 ppm? ;DMy finger was too fast, of course it is 30ppm (0.0030% +0.0005% in one year), thanks for correcting it.
Looking forward to your results on the 34461A and the 34401A
Will you use BenchVue to collect the data?
Herr in Germany, there are several volt nuts, who are able to really check stability , noise, and even uncertainty of this device.
I again offer to check at least the first two parameters.
Frank
I bet it's temperature stabilized, much simpler to implement than temerature compensation. I made one about 1,5 years ago just for fun. It was based on a Ref02 at 10V. Its kept at 45 degrees C with a temp sensor regulated heater in a small box. One year later it still said 10.00000V on my keithley 2000 ( after about 24hr warmup) like I had adjusted it a year before. By the way its adjustable by +/-100uV. Cant give any schematics because I later used this same schematic at work.
I again offer to check at least the first two parameters.
Frank
I again offer to check at least the first two parameters.
Frank
Hello Frank,
How about I will be sending it to you after I have performed a few basic test's.
Would be great to get your report on it.
Thanks for this offer.
..
I allowed a 1-hour warm-up of both the D105-10 and my 34401A. Input 14.5V DC from my best PSU and was getting a stable 10.00000 VDC with the occasional flicker to 10.00001 VDC.
..
Test Method: Null offset to Fluke 732A Precision Voltage Reference
...
US => Germany is 0$ for goods up to 22 EUR(), 19% EUSt for goods between this level and 120 EUR and above that, tax kicks in. Thresholds might vary over time.
..
Test Method: Null offset to Fluke 732A Precision Voltage Reference
...
Ok, this is the preliminary. It arrived earlier than I was expecting so I did some quick testing using my 34401A. I will do much more in-depth testing in the days to come with my 34461A and BenchVue. I have limited time tonight to do anything further but was excited to give a quick glimpse of the preliminary results.
I allowed a 1-hour warm-up of both the D105-10 and my 34401A. Input 14.5V DC from my best PSU and was getting a stable 10.00000 VDC with the occasional flicker to 10.00001 VDC.
Personally, I doubt the performance , once from the capabilities of these refs, 2nd because the description is too enthusiastic, and there's a strange list of compensation features... Like these guys, which claimed supercaps from nanoparticles, and Free Energy, and so on.
Hello,
I also doubt that this performance (+/- 2ppm) is possible in a plastic package.
The better value of long term stability (5ppm/kHr) is usually only for the metal can package (TO-99) which is now marked as obsolete. For the plastic package 20 ppm/kHr are specced. The "typical" 5ppm/kHr of the foot note after 168hrs are usually only valid for lab conditions with constant humidity. In real life applications the plastic packages will drift with humidity.
Further all accuracy specs in the datasheet are additive. So a good performance is only possible under very stable conditions.
If you let the power supply at +/-2V accuracy the +/-2 ppm are already used up by the PSRR of 1ppm/V. And that parameter is meant without self heating due to changing power consumption.
If you really draw 10mA the 10ppm/mA will sum up to 100ppm. (+additional drift due to self heating).
"No soldering" (= socket for the REF102) sounds good for the first. But over time when contact oxidation takes place you might get strange effects by a socket.
There is no statement about pre-aging for the D-105 DC.
In my opinion at least 1 kHr continuous operation would be necessary before first calibration.
So all in all:
Although the REF102 is a excellent reference (in TO-99 package)
in the plastic package I would not expect to get better than 10-20ppm over 1 year with following measures.
- well stabilized power supply around 15V.
- no load on the reference output
- temperature controlled operation
A better choice for a reference would be the AD587 in CERDIP package.
In my ageing experiment I am running one REF102AP against several AD586LQ (5V) references.
14V stabilized power. 50 deg C stabilized temperature. No Load at reference.
Within first 70 days ageing drift was 10 ppm and seems now to stabilize.
When regarding stability the plastic package is far not so stable than the CERDIP devices.
With best regards
Andreas
I bet it's temperature stabilized, much simpler to implement than temerature compensation.
also here is a list of actual units tested in Ti lab report.....if you hand select it's not so cut and dry....(note that the lab report is on the CM package...which is now "obsolete")
with the power consumption of less than 2 mA there will be no heater:I bought this eBay unit, and I also bought Doug Malone's Voltage Standard REF-003 as well, to compare against each other. I don't have the Gellar one yet.
so most probably the compensation is similar to the Geller SVR-T with AD587LQ.
(which I think is the better choice for long term stability).
http://www.gellerlabs.com/Voltage_References/SVRTH/SVR%20THR%20Sch.jpg (http://www.gellerlabs.com/Voltage_References/SVRTH/SVR%20THR%20Sch.jpg)
For the price, I was expecting much better construction inside. It's just a perf-board with point-to-point wiring. I wish it had been shipped with a drop of Loc-tite on the trimmers, but there was none.
photos: https://carousel.dropbox.com/photos/cc/TzYblf4jDLha7Or#/ (https://carousel.dropbox.com/photos/cc/TzYblf4jDLha7Or#/)
BTW the Geller SVR is/was a great piece of gear, beautifully made and is not using a REF102. Unfortunately Joe decided to go out of this business.Yes, I missed out. But Joe Geller kindly sold me a couple of blank boards which I've not yet had time to make up.
http://www.gellerlabs.com/ (http://www.gellerlabs.com/)
BTW the Geller SVR is/was a great piece of gear, beautifully made and is not using a REF102. Unfortunately Joe decided to go out of this business.
http://www.gellerlabs.com/ (http://www.gellerlabs.com/)
BTW the Geller SVR is/was a great piece of gear, beautifully made and is not using a REF102. Unfortunately Joe decided to go out of this business.
http://www.gellerlabs.com/ (http://www.gellerlabs.com/)
I never understood how he made money from this. Building, burning in and hand calibrating each unit is a lot of work.
The reference ICs are burned in for ~1,000 hours prior to use. But that is to produce good "long-term" stability. The +-2ppm figure is the maximum error. To get that we use temperature-compensation. It took about three years to develop the device. I have a scientific background. So, I only had to learn the application side.It took him 3 whole years to develop that?
It's basically just inspiration + education + resource + experience + planning + trial and error + persistence + good equipment + common sense + hard work + prayer = good results.Two red flags right there. ;D
There is so much innovation in this product that it appears to be magic.
It's basically just inspiration + education + resource + experience + planning + trial and error + persistence + good equipment + common sense + hard work + prayer = good results.Two red flags right there. ;D
There is so much innovation in this product that it appears to be magic.
100$ ... Give it a try.. If you're able to verify it.
Personally, I doubt the performance , once from the capabilities of these refs, 2nd because the description is too enthusiastic, and there's a strange list of compensation features... Like these guys, which claimed supercaps from nanoparticles, and Free Energy, and so on.
You know, they all simply use common terminus technicus / pseudo scientific terms in such descriptions , without really being able to implement these...
At least, if this community would be able to prove this gadget to not fulfill the claimed specs, you may blame him afterwards.
I also offer to check this circuit to ppm uncertainty.
Frank
I bought this eBay unit, and I also bought Doug Malone's Voltage Standard REF-003 as well, to compare against each other. I don't have the Gellar one yet.The pots are friction-fit into the plastic shell. Disassembly causes the pots to move, ruining the calibration. Until the unit is recalibrated, it will probably not meet the spec of 10VDC +-2ppm.
I have taken the eBay unit apart
I wish it had been shipped with a drop of Loc-tite on the trimmers, but there was none.If we used Loctite, the trimmer stems would not fit in the case holes. The unit is not designed for end-user disassembly.
In the schematic below, C2 and C3 might be wrong.C2 and C3 are each in the 100pf to 2uf range, but if you measure one you've measured them both together. Thanks for the nice expose'.
It took him 3 whole years to develop that?Let's see you make one.
I wonder how long it would take him to do it, if he didn't have a scientific background. :-DD
]prayer = good results.
appears to be magic.
Two red flags right there. ;D
The pots are friction-fit into the plastic shell.Are you saying that you've deliberately coupled the mechanical stresses in the housing into the voltage setting? Is that part of the "magic"?
Wow, after seeing those pictures, I am going to pass on this one. That is not going to last very long and at this price he should have a proper circuit board. This is just selling prototypes that all will have variable characteristics in the end.
And holy shit, those photos are scary as hell. You can buy a working Fluke standard (from the 1960's) for $200.Those standards are +-10-20ppm. Why pay more for less? Why would anyone pay this goober $100 for a few components poorly hand soldered together?[/quote] How truly it has been said, "Do not throw pearls before swine." and again, "They will see but not understand. They will listen but not hear."
I have a few notes to share.
I don't know anything about Awesome14 and only know a little about the D-105 from what I have read and seen pictures of. I am in the market for a DC reference and looked at this before the conversation started. I am not specifically looking for the bargain basement unit, but rather something that I can trust. Since I would like to have a few references to cross check I was hoping to find units that are affordable. For $100, there is very little risk in trying.
While I have neither the skill or the equipment to confirm the specs, I would have to trust the unit works. Thankfully there is an active group of people that love to test specs and have the means and skills to do so. While I am NOT a scientist, I have worked with many of them. A key part of the scientific community is cross checking claims. Any good scientist should welcome others to cross check for anything out of place and confirm the results are repeatable. I hear a very defensive conversation here where the scrutiny should be welcomed. There is also a "magic" claim that will always have people running away. There are claims that this is the holy grail of voltage references that overcomes the challenges that have vexxed any and all engineers that have attempted to tackle this level of precision and stability.
Awesome14, surely you can expect this community of engineers to pick your claims to the edge of death. The images that were posted show a construction that most of us would have last seen in the 7th grade. I work with far less precision circuits that absolutely require a well considered PCB layout for them to function well and have any sort of consistency from unit to unit.
I do not doubt your sincerity, integrity, or intelligence. I hope that this unit is proven to be what you claim - if so I will buy 4 of them. Let those with the questions and the curiosity verify everything you say. When/if they do maybe you can add that to the eBay listing and raise the price. Independent verification is far more powerful than anything you could possibly type yourself anywhere on the internet.
Everything is not as it appears. Else, my work could be stolen.
Criticizing other people does nothing to advance one's own cause, and it is the bastion of the weak-minded. If you can do better, why don't you? Because you really can't. I say, let's see the results! You might trivialize my efforts, but you trivialize yourself even more, because you haven't accomplished what I have.
How truly it has been said, "Do not throw pearls before swine." and again, "They will see but not understand. They will listen but not hear."Quote from: timbAnd holy shit, those photos are scary as hell. You can buy a working Fluke standard (from the 1960's) for $200.Those standards are +-10-20ppm. Why pay more for less? Why would anyone pay this goober $100 for a few components poorly hand soldered together?
If I could explain it in a way that pleases you, I would do it. You guys like to know how everything works. In a practical sense, no one really knows exactly how the D-105 DC works. I have a good idea, but the design does not yield to clean mathematical analysis. If I ever get it figured out to your satisfaction, I'll let you know.
If you had understanding you would know it must be that way, or the device wouldn't perform to spec. Before you criticize, humble yourself. If the unit was pretty-soldered, or if it used anything but perf board, it would not perform to spec. It also would not power cycle well.
I did not view the photos, but the units must be made a certain way, and the solder does more than make the connections secure. Perhaps someone here was in a rush. Or, perhaps the unit was vandalized.
Those trim pots are not even low-TC ones, few degrees aways and it's done.Actually, the TC of the trim pots and the resistor string doesn't matter. It only affects the trim range of the reference, not the output value directly.
Actually, the TC of the trim pots and the resistor string doesn't matter. It only affects the trim range of the reference, not the output value.
So, for example, if the TCR of the trim pots was 200ppm, and the values used were such that 1ppm of resistance change corresponded to 1ppm of voltage change, then it's only 1ppm of the trim range voltage, which is 25mV. So even 200ppm of 25mV is just 5uV change, or 0.5ppm of the reference output of 10V.
Maybe not the absolute value is severely affected, but then the claimed T.C. of 0.15ppm/K cannot be met.
Following your calculation / estimation (?), it is 0.5ppm/K instead.
Theoretically, this T.C. influence can also be compensated by the NTC, although it is not in close contact to the trimming components.
Frank
The claim that "it is set to +/-2ppm or *MY* 732A" is probably true. Now, the calibration of the 732A is the next question. Who calibrated the 732A, and what is the stated uncertainty [in the "scope of accreditations", from NVLAP or A2LA] for calibrations of voltage at a fixed value of 10V? So, let's say the stated calibration uncertainty for the 732A is 10ppm, and the eBay reference is +/-2ppm of that, and now you have an absolute value of 10V +/-12ppm [to the SI volt]. How long will it stay at that setting? How does it perform with temperature and humidity changes? What is the time drift? Does it have a drift with barometric pressure changes [most references do, including the 732A and 732B]? Well, only frequent calibrations will be able to discern this. The temperature and humidity changes can be tested in an environmental chamber. The pressure changes can be determined in a pressure/vacuum chamber [not much pressure/vacuum is needed, so a simple hand pump can be used]. The device can be put into a box with a lot of desiccant packages, and the voltage can be monitored as the humidity approaches zero, then the desiccant can be removed and some hot damp paper towels can be added, and then monitor the output voltage for changes while the humidity goes up. Usually, there is a delay in output change vs. humidity, ranging from 10's of minutes to weeks [depending on construction and water vapor infusion rates of the various materials]. It is a well known fact that epoxy [PC board material and IC packages] "swell" terribly with humidity, and this puts a "strain" on the die inside the package. Pretty much any op-amp and/or voltage reference is going to respond to this strain unless the strain has been isolated [like in a hermetic package, and possibly with additional strain-relieving die mounting techniques]. The "zero drift" op-amps will self-compensate for this "die strain", but every other component type is likely susceptible to this effect [capacitors, resistors, and IC's used in the design].
...This design uses temperature compensation, which requires [to do it right] quite a bit of time in a chamber to set the TempCo. So, this design is trading labor for better components.
I predict that these will require a *lot* of hand tuning to get them set right, then will drift like hell after that.
Wouldn't it always be better to use an oven and a good heater and feedback loop to keep the temperature at a fixed point, rather than try to compensate? If everything is at a fixed temperature, maybe only change a few tenths of a degree C, then it's temperature stable and this would eliminate all temperature effects.
Yes. Btw. with high end ovens we're talking about internal temperature changes measured in mK — Millikelvin.
Yes. Btw. with high end ovens we're talking about internal temperature changes measured in mK — Millikelvin.
What's that in millidegrees Celsius? :P
So, I will email them and let them know they are wrong...
even if you have perfect standard conditions the boiling point of the water is not anymore 100,000 degrees like it was previously because of the latest temperature scale doesn't use it as a defining point like earlier ipts68 did. :)So, I will email them and let them know they are wrong...
Yes they are wrong. 0°C is 273.15 K.
Also, "water boils at..." and "water freezes at..." are statements subject to all sorts of standardized conditions (absolute purity, standard atmospheric pressure, stable equilibrium). In any experiment you perform at home, water is unlikely to boil at 273.15 K.
Also, "water boils at..." and "water freezes at..." are statements subject to all sorts of standardized conditions (absolute purity, standard atmospheric pressure, stable equilibrium). In any experiment you perform at home, water is unlikely to boil at 273.15 K.even if you have perfect standard conditions the boiling point of the water is not anymore 100,000 degrees like it was previously because of the latest temperature scale doesn't use it as a defining point like earlier ipts68 did. :)
I've experienced 15 murder attempts in the last 3 years, all because of what I write.
I have presented a +-2ppm voltage reference to support my implicit claim, while the critics have presented no evidence to support their claims condemning my cable setup.
but the perf board is the best for this application. It allows convection airflow to stabilize the unit faster and keep it more stable, and it also reduces hysteresis because of the large number of expansion and contraction relief points. If you disagree, please present some evidence to support your point rather than attacking me as a person.
...I'm a computer programmer/analyst/consultant...
...Due to my abilities, both physical and intellectual...
...I am a very capable individual...
Also, "water boils at..." and "water freezes at..." are statements subject to all sorts of standardized conditions (absolute purity, standard atmospheric pressure, stable equilibrium). In any experiment you perform at home, water is unlikely to boil at 273.15 K.even if you have perfec at standard conditions the boiling point of the water is not anymore 100,000 degrees like it was previously because of the latest temperature scale doesn't use it as a defining point like earlier ipts68 did. :)
Point noted. However, water is unlikely to boil at 273.15 K for the more fundamental reason that this is actually the freezing point of water... ;D
The 732A has an actual output of 10.00000471 when compared to a 732B sent from Fluke Calibration. Fluke assigns output values of their 732Bs based on their superconducting, cryogenic Josephson Effect standard, which is accurate to 18 decimal places. The error of the 732A is taken into account. We only track the error on the 732A. No turning of the pots. That was done 04/14. The maximum drift of a working 732A is 0.6ppm/month. That was measured by a 48 hour test, and the 732A is within spec., and it's within calibration. So, the uncertainty is 0.6ppm*10months=6ppm max, but probably less. Given that the 732A has had no observable change since last calibration, it is probably less than 6ppm uncertainty.
.... claimed stability of 0.15ppm/°C
that is the mean s=10 from 16-26C.
... 1.5ppm/1kHrs in operation
the long-term drift is stated as can be expected, which is a bit softer than will be.
I am a very capable individual. I have 1.4 million readers in 155 nations! I must remain anonymous, because I've experienced 15 murder attempts in the last 3 years, all because of what I write.
I have some suggestions for improving your reference
The photos of the D-105 DC posted in this discussion thread are not representative of a typical unit.
Yes, the devices might all develop idiosyncratic characteristics...
And to say that these design features preclude manufacture of the device is simply arrogance!
The units are sealed air-tight to prevent large internal relative-humidity changes. Piercing the anti-tamper seal breaks the air-tight seal. Am I to be faulted because others break a seal that is obviously not to be tampered with?
It's contrived nonsense! The user is to blame for ignoring right reason.
I don't know what the problem is with potential for long-term drift.
I've done something remarkable.
I've read in this discussion thread that eBay is wrought with questionable claims regarding voltage standards. It really isn't.
On this board I fell like everywhere I step there's going to be a turd. I am not particularly sociable or friendly, but I am respectful toward others.
Due to my abilities, both physical and intellectual, I have endured the bitterness of others my whole life. What perplexes my peers seems intuitively obvious to me. Many others have been outright livid at the ease with which I bring my thoughts to fulfillment.
Among other things, I'm a computer programmer/analyst/consultant. During my first two weeks of intro programming class I purchased a programming book and became a published software author. Several weeks later I established myself as a computer consultant.
I thought the instructor would be happy to have a good student. But he told the entire class that I was simply arrogant to parade my abilities. So, due to an endless litany of being bashed for my capabilities, I might have a bit of a chip on my shoulder. Please bear with me.
I am a very capable individual. I have 1.4 million readers in 155 nations! I must remain anonymous, because I've experienced 15 murder attempts in the last 3 years, all because of what I write.
I will do this for up to 2 members of EEVBlog.
My comment made privately to an eBay user, which was then made public in an attempt to smear me, mentions magic. I believe there was a misunderstanding. Appears to be magic means: it looks like magic, because nothing quite like this has been seen before, so it challenges our concept of what is possible—something like a 2-foot tall front-end loader that can lift a skyscraper—but we both know reality is governed by inflexible laws beyond the capability of mankind to alter.
It does NOT mean: I've evaluated all possibilities....
I've fielded messages from uninformed critics berating me for deceiving the amateur-electronics community in such an insidious way. I've learned that they all go silent when exposed to the light of truth.
And, finally, few people understand the desire to do good for the sake of itself. I'm not concerned by finances, because I have the money I need, and it's important for me to set an example for others: money will not buy what everyone truly desires. If I showed you the AC battery that never requires charging, that runs forever, you would not believe, because it's against the laws of physics. But it isn't if the energy is coming from somewhere; ambient energy coherently converted into a usable form.
The design was a gift to me, and I'm passing it on.
If I showed you the AC battery that never requires charging, that runs forever, you would not believe, ...At least you've got one thing right!
I'm trying to get my head around where all the snarkiness is coming from. I've always thought of the EEV blog members as pretty substantial and serious folks who are generally even-tempered and polite. So I'm guessing there has to be a lot of life-stress in this small community for such uncivil comments to be on display. At age 75, I've tried to get past all that, and I recommend some quiet time for the members here -- a nap might serve....
I am a very capable individual. I have 1.4 million readers in 155 nations! I must remain anonymous, because I've experienced 15 murder attempts in the last 3 years, all because of what I write.
I'm trying to get my head around where all the snarkiness is coming from. I've always thought of the EEV blog members as pretty substantial and serious folks who are generally even-tempered and polite. So I'm guessing there has to be a lot of life-stress in this small community for such uncivil comments to be on display. At age 75, I've tried to get past all that, and I recommend some quiet time for the members here -- a nap might serve....
The design was a gift to me, and I'm passing it on.
uhhhhhh, I thought you invented it. Or was it given to you as a gift? Or do you mean a gift from on high?
I am a very capable individual. I have 1.4 million readers in 155 nations! I must remain anonymous, because I've experienced 15 murder attempts in the last 3 years, all because of what I write.
Care to share with us what you have written that garnered 1.4m readers and 15 murder attempts?
After all, it is public, right?
Perhaps you'll even gain some more readers...
there are many places in a design of this sort to shave off slivers of noise, jitter, instability and drift, if you know where to look.Ah, yes, the problem of jitter that plagues all voltage references. :bullshit:
The price has been raised to $157
@ TunerSandwich RE Fluke refs -- do you mean the 731A or B? Very nice if cleaned up and working well. I've had two 343A (I still have one) and two 332s -- an A and a D -- all of those proved to have both short and long term jumps and spikes. They all had/have the Fluke/Motorola buried zener refs; in the 332s, these are in ovens, while they are naked in the 343s. So as transfer standards, they would work, but as references, not so much. I believe the basic problems come from the chopper amp circuits, so I have a plan to build a different chopper amp for the 343 I have now.
I have had two Fluke 732As with really good experiences -- really wish I had those back now. They would hold better than 0.5ppm from a cold start to fully hot on the 10V output, but the 1V and 1.018V outs were much less good, which was maybe why I had them and some cal lab didn't. I couldn't see any reason to keep them hot all the time, though i suppose that's good long term -- the 732A also uses the Fluke/Moto buried zener ref and puts it and all the divider resistors in a foam box with 4 plate-type heaters.
OK.I have a digital image of the cal certificate for the 732A. but I found it confused eBay buyers. I had much less sales, so I took it out of the listing. You can see it if you want, though.
Hi Awesome14,
YES! Please post the calibration certificate from Fluke here in this forum
I have some suggestions for improving your reference:I think if you did all of these things, you would notice a great improvement in stability of your reference. I didn't mention accelerated burn-in procedures, as I am sure you are already doing that. There is no reason why you could not raise the price of your product to cover the costs of doing all of this.
- Consider moving the TempCo adjustment to the "noise reduction" pin. This will reduce the influence the TempCo fine-trim has on voltage fine-trim.
- Consider using better quality resistors in the divider chain [and for the trim-pot]. The resistors I have in mind are the Vishay UXB-0207 series, which you can buy at 2ppm/K. The Vishay Precision Group 1285G trim-pot has 5ppm TCR [for the total resistance]. Texas Components, Digi-Key, and Mouser stock these, but they are more expensive in small quantities.
- I know you stated that the AD587 is not as good as the REF102, and that may be true for the REF102 in a hermetic "can" [which they don't sell anymore], but it is *not* correct for the hermetic AD587 in a ceramic package vs. the REF102 in a plastic package. Humidity causes the plastic [epoxy] IC packages to expand, and this [in turn] causes stress on the IC's die, and this [in turn] causes a shift in the voltage output. Inside the package, the buried Zener is probably not affected by this phenomenon very much, but the REF102 also has a current source for the Zener and a boost op-amp with gain setting resistors that *will* be affected.
- If you don't want to switch to the ceramic AD587, then consider encapsulating the entire circuit board in dual-wall PTFE/FEP heat-shrink tubing. PTFE and FEP are from the fluorocarbon family, and the strong fluorine bonds in the material make it [chemically] very stable. When you shrink this over the entire PC board, the PTFE has a higher melt point than the FEP, and so the FEP will melt and "fuse" to the thing that you are encapsulating. To prevent damaging the components, place a silicone-foam weather strip on top of them and on the bottom of the board before applying the heat-shrink. This provides a 100% stop to water vapor infusion-- [in essence, it is a "poor man's hermetic package"]. Naturally, you will have wires exiting the heat-shrink for the power [(+), (-) in], the reference [(+), (-) out], and 4 more wires to attach the external trim-pots.
- Consider using a metal enclosure inside of a plastic enclosure. The metal enclosure would only be attached to the reference (-) output, and would act as a "guard", as well as would reduce temperature gradients. The metal box could be placed inside of the plastic box, with wires brought out for power in, reference out, and trim-pots. Then the inside of the plastic box is filled with closed-cell polyurethane expanding foam [you have probably seen this in your hardware store in a small can-- it is used to seal the cracks in your house from the wind]. The foam [together with the internal metal box] will act as a "thermal lag" type of system, keeping the temperature very stable inside.
- Please consider switching to Tellurium Copper binding posts on the output (+) and (-) terminals to reduce thermal EMF's.
-Ken
I want you to wait 24 hours after reading this message. Then, return to this board--if you are able--and try spouting your arrogant diatribe against me words. Behold, The Lord God Almighty!
Seriously? And you are calling others arrogant?
I'm sorry but I simply don't see where you have done anything "remarkable".....in fact I see a rather un-remarkable attempt at self marketing an average "voltage standard"....with claims that you have somehow cracked some great physics mystery....
If you keep experiencing hostility from others....throughout your life....maybe it's time to take a step back and realize the problem isn't everyone else :-//
P.S. "sealed" is a total embellishment....your package is NOT hermetically sealed, nor is the inside of the enclosure a vacuum....I'm sorry, but your claims are very over the top....there is nothing remarkable or special about your device....although I think the REF102C is an excellent and inexpensive ref IC chip....+/- 2ppm (which is totally unfounded over time) is not "remarkable"
Why do these guys always have to sound crazy? Unverifiable anecdotes, pleas to authority, and meaningless technobabble just make you look defensive and uneducated.
Provide logical rationale for the design decisions that have been made and everyone is happy.
I don't see how following a simple applications schematic is in any way cutting edge.....I simply don't see anything out of the ordinary (other than somewhat shoddy construction), and when confronted with that issue, the maker says "it's a big secret". Really? What is so special or secretive about a monolithic REF IC?
Hell we have all seen the guts of a Fluke standard....and it's a far far far cry above and beyond the $100 ebay special....and even that isn't "remarkable" or "ground breaking"......nor is it "magic" nor does it do anything that can't be significantly bettered......it simply follows an accepted standard for producing reasonably low drift/stable transfer standards.....it's not magic, and it's not super science.....it's basic electronics engineering....given Flukes resources and engineering prowess, i highly doubt any of us here, acting independently are going to best their efforts and "revolutionize" any facet of their already acceptable design.....and it's surer than shit not going to happen at a $100 per unit cost basis.....
I found this whole topic quite amusing at first, but now it has crossed the line into complete and total insanity....conspiracy theories about death threats.....claiming mental superiority over other engineers....claims of cracking mystical boundaries of physics the rest of us are "too dumb to understand"....etc etc etc.....
this shit is just plain bonkers.....but wonderfully entertaining.....I can't wait to hear all about the death threats and "assassination attempts" :-DD
The design was a gift to me, and I'm passing it on.
uhhhhhh, I thought you invented it. Or was it given to you as a gift? Or do you mean a gift from on high?
I am a very capable individual. I have 1.4 million readers in 155 nations! I must remain anonymous, because I've experienced 15 murder attempts in the last 3 years, all because of what I write.
Care to share with us what you have written that garnered 1.4m readers and 15 murder attempts?
After all, it is public, right?
Perhaps you'll even gain some more readers...
I am a very capable individual. I have 1.4 million readers in 155 nations! I must remain anonymous, because I've experienced 15 murder attempts in the last 3 years, all because of what I write.
Care to share with us what you have written that garnered 1.4m readers and 15 murder attempts?
After all, it is public, right?
Perhaps you'll even gain some more readers...
I made the greatest scientific discovery of all time. So, I published it. It's the holy grail: the key to immortality and absolute power; or perhaps I should phrase it: extremely extended lifespan and the ability to manipulate the physical laws of nature. I've demonstrated that it is the means by which God conceived the Christ Child in the womb of Mary Most Holy. I've also done a thesis that the same principle when mixed with murder produces vampire fetuses.
No one has ever argued the points I have made regarding immortality, absolute power, or vampires. So, now you'll have a bit of google fodder. But I'm not tying myself to any certain published material, because I don't desire to be linked to it.
The price has been raised to $157
The price has been raised to $157
Thankfully the market dictates "value". I can buy a half way decent Fluke ref (older model) for around $200 (I foolishly let one go the other day on the ole eBAY), with broad voltage ranges....proper compensation and cal features and don't have to pay 30% of the value in shipping.....
I say best of luck fetching $157 + shipping from a potential customer.....but it won't be coming from my bank account.....but again the seller doesn't care about money, because he's already set-up, in that respect....
Curious that he has all the money he needs though, and is so accomplished, but then feels the need to raise the price, so he can "help the EE community out".....give me a break :palm:
@ TunerSandwich RE Fluke refs -- do you mean the 731A or B? Very nice if cleaned up and working well. I've had two 343A (I still have one) and two 332s -- an A and a D -- all of those proved to have both short and long term jumps and spikes. They all had/have the Fluke/Motorola buried zener refs; in the 332s, these are in ovens, while they are naked in the 343s. So as transfer standards, they would work, but as references, not so much. I believe the basic problems come from the chopper amp circuits, so I have a plan to build a different chopper amp for the 343 I have now./quote] Those are +-10ppm refs. I have buyers purchasing my standard to calibrate 731s. Sheesh!QuoteI have had two Fluke 732As with really good experiences -- really wish I had those back now. They would hold better than 0.5ppm from a cold start to fully hot on the 10V output, but the 1V and 1.018V outs were much less good, which was maybe why I had them and some cal lab didn't. I couldn't see any reason to keep them hot all the time, though i suppose that's good long term -- the 732A also uses the Fluke/Moto buried zener ref and puts it and all the divider resistors in a foam box with 4 plate-type heaters.
The 732A is not meant to be powered off, ever!Quote731B. They are obviously nothing compared to a 734A (loaded with a few 732B).....but you can get them all day on eBAY for under $200.....I let one go a couple weeks ago for $135....figured i have too many transfer standards already, but I would like to have a nice 731B to clean up, cal and refurb (battery pack etc). I always thought they were cool (in a funky retro gear kind of way) and they were/are certainly well engineered product, with the assurance and confidence that Fluke doesn't partake in any "magic".The older Flukes are nice for nostalgia.QuoteSo options given....$157 + shipping for Mr. "Awesome14" "standard" or $135 + shipping for a genuine Fluke standard....which has pretty solid range capability...and doesn't "lose it's precious vacuum, hermetic, magical seal" when you open it up to re-cal or service it?So, then you want a standard that's less accurate, 10ppm vs. 2ppm. The D-105 DC doesn't require opening of the chassis for any reason.QuoteSeems like a no-brainer to me....oh and of course lets not forget the Fluke has mains power into it (no additional investment in tying up a nice PSU to let Awesome14 standard cook 24/7). Also the brilliant capability to remove AC mains and move the unit around......and further gain confidence in your measurement, by running completely isolated from any nasty service flaws.... :-+The D-105 DC will run for weeks on (2) 9V batteries, isolated from mains. But it is repeatable over power cycles, so you don't need to run it for weeks. The D-105 DC is the most accurate standard behind the Fluke 732A, 732B, Josephson effect reference, and a Daytron reference. You can't touch those for under 500.00! Let's make fair comparisons.
I am a very capable individual. I have 1.4 million readers in 155 nations! I must remain anonymous, because I've experienced 15 murder attempts in the last 3 years, all because of what I write.
Care to share with us what you have written that garnered 1.4m readers and 15 murder attempts?
After all, it is public, right?
Perhaps you'll even gain some more readers...
I made the greatest scientific discovery of all time. So, I published it. It's the holy grail: the key to immortality and absolute power; or perhaps I should phrase it: extremely extended lifespan and the ability to manipulate the physical laws of nature. I've demonstrated that it is the means by which God conceived the Christ Child in the womb of Mary Most Holy. I've also done a thesis that the same principle when mixed with murder produces vampire fetuses.
No one has ever argued the points I have made regarding immortality, absolute power, or vampires. So, now you'll have a bit of google fodder. But I'm not tying myself to any certain published material, because I don't desire to be linked to it.
You're either a troll or insane.
wat.Awesome isn't it. Truly awesome. :)
Awesome14, temperature compensated references have been around for a long time. There's even an LT app note showing a schematic for one (Jim Williams AN47 maybe).
Speaking of Jim Williams, he's a true genius and someone I truly admire. The world lost a brilliant mind the day he died.
The fact that you won't show us what's so "obvious" that we missed is akin to a kid on the playground going "I've got something you don't, nanana boo boo!"
It leads me to believe that you're just blowing smoke.
Also, show me exactly what TunerSandwich edited in his quote.
Real scientists and engineers don't act the way you do. God, I can't imagine the way you'd react at having a paper or something peer reviewed. You'd flip the fuck out and smite them all with God's name.
You're either a troll or insane.
Sent from my Smartphone
Quote from: Awesome14My comment made privately to an eBay user, which was then made public in an attempt to smear me, mentions magic. I believe there was a misunderstanding. Appears to be magic means: it looks like magic, because nothing quite like this has been seen before, so it challenges our concept of what is possible—something like a 2-foot tall front-end loader that can lift a skyscraper—but we both know reality is governed by inflexible laws beyond the capability of mankind to alter.
[color=”red”]It does NOT mean: I've evaluated all possibilities....[/color]
My comment made privately to an eBay user, which was then made public in an attempt to smear me, mentions magic. I believe there was a misunderstanding. Appears to be magic means: it looks like magic, because nothing quite like this has been seen before, so it challenges our concept of what is possible—something like a 2-foot tall front-end loader that can lift a skyscraper—but we both know reality is governed by inflexible laws beyond the capability of mankind to alter.
[/b][color=”red”]It does NOT mean: I've evaluated all possibilities, and I've discovered the device is controlled by magic! [/color][/b]
I have chosen to protect my work using trade-secret rather than patent. Therefore, as I said before, I'm not going to reveal what protects my work, no matter how many times the members call it worthless. Because I know there is nothing like it for the price.
You're either a troll or insane.
...this topic is kind of comedy...
Let's just stick with professional opinions and solid research work.
Even by internet standards - this is comedy gold!
It could be a fundraiser for the EEVblog - sell subscriptions to this thread for $157!
It appears you can get a lesser model for cheaperEven by internet standards - this is comedy gold!
It could be a fundraiser for the EEVblog - sell subscriptions to this thread for $157!
I need to save my money for the D-105 DC.....the price hike shattered my dreams :(
It appears you can get a lesser model for cheaperEven by internet standards - this is comedy gold!
It could be a fundraiser for the EEVblog - sell subscriptions to this thread for $157!
I need to save my money for the D-105 DC.....the price hike shattered my dreams :(
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/10-VOLT-DC-Precision-Voltage-Reference-Standard-Nulled-to-Fluke-732A-or-732B-/261499015291?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3ce28e507b (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/10-VOLT-DC-Precision-Voltage-Reference-Standard-Nulled-to-Fluke-732A-or-732B-/261499015291?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3ce28e507b)
My standard is the only standard to successfully employ tunable, passive tempco employing a heat-equalization pipe. Why didn't you think of that?
That's exactly what is going to happen. Due to no part of mine in it, but you earned it. No one is claiming miracles or magic regarding the D-105 DC. The members of this board appear as utter fools because of their presumption and arrogance, something they apparently cannot hide even if they try. Nor can they accept the truth even when it is known. No, they insist on hammering away at the less fortunate, the weak and disabled.
Awesome14, temperature compensated references have been around for a long time. There's even an LT app note showing a schematic for one (Jim Williams AN47 maybe).
Speaking of Jim Williams, he's a true genius and someone I truly admire. The world lost a brilliant mind the day he died.
The fact that you won't show us what's so "obvious" that we missed is akin to a kid on the playground going "I've got something you don't, nanana boo boo!"
It leads me to believe that you're just blowing smoke.
Also, show me exactly what TunerSandwich edited in his quote.
Real scientists and engineers don't act the way you do. God, I can't imagine the way you'd react at having a paper or something peer reviewed. You'd flip the fuck out and smite them all with God's name.
You're either a troll or insane.
Sent from my Smartphone
...
[color=”red”]It does NOT mean: I've evaluated all possibilities....[/color]
[color=”red”]It does NOT mean: I've evaluated all possibilities, and I've discovered the device is controlled by magic! [/color]
...
I have chosen to protect my work using trade-secret rather than patent. Therefore, as I said before, I'm not going to reveal what protects my work, no matter how many times the members call it worthless. Because I know there is nothing like it for the price.
I don't see any heatpipes in the teardown
This thread is disgraceful.
:--
Before I post any thing on line I do a quick check, "would I say that to my boss or a friend?"
I strongly support peer review and positive criticism, but it should always be done in a objective way preferably supported by analysis or prior art.
It should never be an attack on the person, his believes or his culture.
I don't see any heatpipes in the teardown
Maybe he thinks all the plated holes in the perf board are heat pipes. After-all, they're metallic and kind of pipe shaped ;D
...if you hand select (bin) the IC...
This thread is disgraceful.
:--
...if you hand select (bin) the IC...
How do you do that? Do you buy lots of them and run them all on the bench side by side and monitor them?
The 8-digit meter and the 732A belong to our calibration lab, which is owned by CalibratoryTM, LLC. I personally own a large part of CalibratoryTM, LLC, which also manufactures the voltage reference, D-105 10DC. But no man is an island! We all need other people to accomplish anything.
if that makes me a bad person, oh well...
My thinking is that there appears to still be a market for the voltage transfer service that Joe Geller had [which was more for transferring 10V from his 732B to the buyer, without costing US$500 each time].
It would take Joe about 8-hours in a small chamber he built to calibrate the TempCo of each SVR-T, and that combined with the high cost for a proper [low uncertainty] calibration of his 732B every year ended up being a zero-sum business, so he had to quit doing it.
I think this can still be done, but one would have to charge more for the reference itself, and more for the calibration in order for it to be a viable business model.
So, I've been designing a circuit similar to this, but using the AD587UQ. No matter what I do, I end up with a circuit to adjust the TC of the AD587 and the time required to adjust the TempCo takes so long that it makes me think that I should just abandon the idea of temperature compensation of a monolithic reference IC altogether. I think a better idea is to develop a low-cost voltage reference that has a [more or less] "very good" TempCo from the start, then provide a calibrated 10V using that.
I remember when I spoke with Bob Dobkin, Bob told me that the LM399 does not drift when it is off, and that the LM399A model *can* have a TempCo that is considerably less than the data-sheet value [he mentioned 0.1ppm/K]. He said that you could parallel several of these [he said at least 6, but I think 4 would be OK], and then only turn on the reference when you need to calibrate it, or to calibrate something else with it-- the rest of the time, leave it off. He said you can get away with this because the LM399 has almost no hysteresis through power cycles.
So, why not make a "community voltage transfer device" based on one [or more] LM399A's? If there is enough interest, I can do this, and sell them on eBay [with low cost follow-on calibrations as often as desired]. This would not need batteries, but could be powered by an external battery pack if desired. Comments anyone?
He let the flood gates open paulie. At first we were poking fun at the build quality. That is no worse than what Dave does for a living. Then we heard about Angels, mob hits and immortality. He brought it on himself.
IMHO you have to admit that the build quality leaves much to be desired.
My thinking is that there appears to still be a market for the voltage transfer service that Joe Geller had [which was more for transferring 10V from his 732B to the buyer, without costing US$500 each time].
It would take Joe about 8-hours in a small chamber he built to calibrate the TempCo of each SVR-T, and that combined with the high cost for a proper [low uncertainty] calibration of his 732B every year ended up being a zero-sum business, so he had to quit doing it.
I think this can still be done, but one would have to charge more for the reference itself, and more for the calibration in order for it to be a viable business model.
I agree about a circuit not needing to be in a fancy casing or maybe the casing has some writing on it. I have bought some commercial products that way and I'm not complaining. And even in high end gear you'll find the occasional bodge wire. Again I'm not complaining.IMHO you have to admit that the build quality leaves much to be desired.No, I don't. "Pretty" was never the number one item at the top of my list. Certainly not to the sacrifice of function and performance. IMO just another excuse for perpetrating the feeding frenzy.
Well, if you have the chamber and all of the other equipment needed, then there is no reason why the TempCo compensation can't be totally automated [as well as the final voltage trim]. This could certainly be done "covers on" with the appropriate circuitry.
One of the reasons with using an AD587UQ in this application is cost. One thing I thought of doing was add a small "jelly-bean" microcontroller, that measures the temperature and adjusts the output voltage in real-time. This same MCU [through it's serial port] would have an EEPROM to store the TempCo constants and the final voltage adjustment value.
Lately I've been reading a bit about constructing circuits which work at ppm level accuracies/stability and in that arena there are lots of influences which can introduce a huge uncertainty in a circuit especially over a longer period of time.
So the real question is are things like those perfboard holes and solder globs really important for the high performance as the designer claims or just defensive manic ramblings. It wouldn't be too hard to prove with proper experimental setup and I'd love to do that but lack the resources and expertise.
Lately I've been reading a bit about constructing circuits which work at ppm level accuracies/stability and in that arena there are lots of influences which can introduce a huge uncertainty in a circuit especially over a longer period of time.
No real experience in this realm but I've been following the LTZ1000 and LM399 threads since the start and everything you say sounds true. The problem is does anyone have a handle on what matters and how much. For example endless arguments about the spiral holes cut in the PCB around the reference chip. Many said it was just a ritual holdover from an unrelated product. Lots of contradictory opinions about those but not so much in the way of hard evidence.
So the real question is are things like those perfboard holes and solder globs really important for the high performance as the designer claims or just defensive manic ramblings. It wouldn't be too hard to prove with proper experimental setup and I'd love to do that but lack the resources and expertise.
So the real question is are things like those perfboard holes and solder globs really important for the high performance as the designer claims or just defensive manic ramblings. It wouldn't be too hard to prove with proper experimental setup and I'd love to do that but lack the resources and expertise.As others pointed out the process of verifying long term stability is long and cumbersome. Only after a few months or even a year you can tell whether a certain construction is better or worse. So if you want to build or judge such a circuit you have to take a leap of faith and follow the path taken by people before you. Personally I have more confidence in the people at Linear Technology to know what they are doing (especially with the legacy of someone like Jim Williams to back their claims) than someone who put something together but is not able to produce numbers on long term stability.
very clean and tidy PCB with all the proper construction
very clean and tidy PCB with all the proper construction
This is mainly about aesthetics. Granted, many people take pride in their work and aspire to make their products look good, but one should not assume that looking good is necessary for performance. For instance, if you open up an IC package and look at the bond wires they might be very untidy. They may not be fixed in the exact center of the pads, and they may even have bends in them. But does this make you dismiss the IC as badly made?
PCBs were designed to automate production, not to make circuits look pretty.
I mentioned on the LTZ1000 thread that I was interested to see what Awesome14's D-105 could do so I was buying one. It came yesterday. In the interest of more light and less heat, here is what I've found so far. The results are not metrology lab measurements -- they are a guide only, but I've provided enough info to make the results useful. One note -- I have thought for a while that my HP 3458A is reading 10VDC about 6ppm high, although it is in spec....
Calibratory D-105 10V standard evaluation, started on 2-7-15
Instruments used in evaluation:
— HP 3458A, calibration checked on 7 Aug. 2014, by Keysight in Loveleand — no adjustments made, found to be completely in spec; this is the standard model — 8ppm ref board. Used to monitor 10V standard outputs. 3458A powered on for last 6 days; internal temp 36.5 °C. ACAL 1 (DC) run at 4:30PM. NPLC=60, NDIG=8
— HP 3456A, cal’d against HP 3458A. Used for monitoring ambient temps with Pt100 RTD.
— Heath 2718 Linear Triple Bench Supply — each 20V supply powering one standard..
— Geller SVR (not the temp comp unit), purchased in 2007, used for approximately 12 hours total since then up to this time. On for the last 8 hours (included in total of 12), since 8AM with 15VDC power. Geller’s 2007 certificate says 10.000 00V, Tolerance 5ppm/°C, 15ppm/1k hrs. Cal’d at 23°C ambient.
D-105 unboxed in lab at 4PM. Connected to bench supply at 14.5VDC, initial ambient temp at case 23.0 °C. Ambient measured immediately adjacent to and in between the two standards, all sitting on top of an HP 8904A that was powered off — makes a handy stand with some thermal mass.. D-105 output started a few hundred microvolts below 10V, quickly rose to 10.000 05VDC. Calibratory’s certificate says 10.000 0014V, cal’d at 20°C ambient.
Both the Geller SVR and the D-105 outputs are connected with 24ga. solid copper insulated wires (old-school telephone extension wire) to gold flashed dual banana plugs to ease connections to the 3458A. The wires are soldered to the Geller SVR and clamped in the gold-flashed bindind posts of the D-105.
Elapsed time Ambient Geller SVR D-105
for D-105 °C
0.6 hr 23.5 10.000 060 10.000 058
3.4 hr 22.9 10.000 071 10.000 068
5.3 hr 23.6 10.000 060 10.000 066
6.4 hr 23.8 10.000 053 10.000 068
Overnight break in measurements with lab cool-down to thermostat set 66°F, reheat in AM to 71°F; standards left powered on.
20.1 hr 22.4 10.000 092 10.000 078
22.5 hr 22.5 10.000 088 10.000 078
Moved to warmer location on top of HP 3456A, standards and RTD grouped as before.
22.8 hr 28.9 10.000 017 10.000 047
23 hr 29.3 10.000 002 10.000 042
24 hr 29.5 9.999 997 10.000 043
Standards powered down. Will begin from room ambient start in 18 hours or so.
At this point, a simple "box" of drift v. temp shows that average drift for the D-105 is approximately 0.5ppm/°C; the Geller SVR average drift is approximately 1.4ppm/°C (pretty good).
I think that about covers it, unless I neglected something? Can anyone think of additional features and characteristics this device should have?
...what the SVR-T and D-105 are supposed to be.... *NOT* something that you would use to maintain a stable volt in your laboratory long-term.Do the sellers say that? I think most users that look for budget un-documented references don't require sub-1 ppm calibrations. But there is surely a need for a check-up of your hand-held and 4-5-6 digit DMMs. NOT saying the SVR-T and D-105 cant be used as pure short-term transports and that some users could use them as such.
@richiem:
That's a bit unfair to the Geller design, because you are not using the temperature compensated SVR-T, so you are comparing apples to oranges. I suspect the Geller SVR-T would be almost a straight line with temperature, as that is what he obtained for each unit in his micro-chamber after adding the thermistor and "tuned" resistor. Note that the TC of resistors [and therefore monolithic voltage reference outputs] does not change with time unless they are severely abused [like super high temperature exposure, etc.]. So, once a TC is obtained and set, there is no reason to do it again, any only the voltage offset will need trimming from time to time, and this is mainly due to resistor absolute value drift.
Can you borrow an SVR-T from someone and run the test again of the D-105 vs. SVR-T?
The price of the D-105 is US $97.95 today....
My guess is that the sales went to zero after Awesome14 raised the price, so he put it back. This is good to know-- it seems the "threshold of pain" for the "Arduino crowd" appears to be about US$100 for this kind of device.
Either I had some browser cashing issues or the price goes up and down. US $157.95 for the 2ppm version now?
He also lists a 6ppm version for $59.95
@Awesome14:
Just curious, how much did Fox Valley charge you for the calibration for the 732A?
QuoteBefore I post any thing on line I do a quick check, "would I say that to my boss or a friend?"
I strongly support peer review and positive criticism, but it should always be done in a objective way preferably supported by analysis or prior art.
It should never be an attack on the person, his believes or his culture.
I feel the same way, but here it's a different story. It's plain and simple: scam.
No problem if a guy is using a sloppy breadboard reference in his own lab and believes in magic and unrealistic specs. But selling a black box with false claims (2ppm and esoteric bullshit description) for a horrendous price is scam. And I have no mercy for that, especially on ebay where you need to trust the seller when buying stuff. it's like selling 32GB USB sticks that only have 1GB chips inside. Plain and simple scam
I don't see any heatpipes in the teardown
Maybe he thinks all the plated holes in the perf board are heat pipes. After-all, they're metallic and kind of pipe shaped ;D
If you look at the pictures....and try to decipher Awesome14's comment....this is what I believe he is saying....
He has glued a piece of copper foil, between a diode, and the ref IC case....he is calling that a "heatpipe". Ok it's not. I think he is saying that he is cooking that poor little diode, and expecting that a thin piece of copper foil is somehow transferring enough thermal energy from the poor little diode (which is his "heater") to "stabilize" the REF IC. The efficiency of heat transfer across that piece of foil is nil. Also the diode is right next to a shit bottom of the barrel trimmer....which hasn't even had the wiper screw glued in place. So in essence he is creating more of a problem than solving one. The majority of heat (which is hardly any) is not traveling across the copper foil to the REF innards....it's just traveling, via convection, into the case of the trimmer.
Ok fine...even then I doubt this has any significant impact on anything in this circuit. If his theory is to heat the case of the REF then why not just take some nichrome wire...zig zag it across the top of the REF IC case....bond it thermally and run some current through it? That would be far more efficient than his method....and still that isn't the proper way to ovenize this package.
This all could be avoided...by simply designing a proper PCB....with a thermal layer...bonded to a TO (can) REF IC, in the dead bug config....bond the case of the TO package to the thermal layer with some thermal "grease"....and then bond a proper controlled heater to the thermal layer....just like everyone else does....
Instead he claims this is somehow innovative, and we are all too stupid too see it....I am sorry but I am all for helping people, but not when they act like some elitist and call everyone here inferior....ESPECIALLY when they have ZERO basis in their claims...NO data to prove anything and start talking about being handed circuit designs from God himself....throw in vampires, angles, and whatever other bullshit is flying out of this guys mouth, and I just don't feel like being nice anymore....
I said back on page one, that the REF102C is in fact an excellent monolithic ref IC.....I have worked with them many times, and if you hand select (bin) the IC, you can easily get better than 2ppm per year stability....out of the plastic package. No big deal there.
What I am amazed at is that DESPITE the poor layout and construction of Awesome14's "reference" the Ti REF102C is getting anywhere near 2ppm stability (+/- so 4ppm really) for even a day or two....I still see zero data showing anything about stability over 30, 90, 180, 256,etc etc etc days....
If anything I say this whole scenario just shows how good the REF102C can be....even when someone who has no idea what they are doing slaps one together with perfboard....shit components and construction techniques....
Again I have used the REF102C in a proper ovenized enclosure design...with proper supporting components, and it's a nice little IC, for a reasonable cost.....easy to implement etc etc etc....and IF you hand select the IC you CAN get better than 1.5ppm stability over a year or more....fine, no big deal...that is not innovative, astounding or anything other than "decent".....
The claims of "heatpipes" and "revolutionary design"....and then insulting us all on the basis that since we don't agree, we are somehow mentally inferior and closed minded...is simply going past the point where I feel like lending any advice or being a nice guy....
So again the only conclusion here, is that DESPITE Awesome14's total ignorance and terrible mental disabilities, the REF102C is a half way decent REF IC....I am mainly still here reading and commenting, because I find this entire thread utterly hilarious, on the basis of the divine claims, breaking the laws of physics claims, assassination conspiracy etc etc etc....it's pure comedy at this point....nothing anyone says here is actually going to help Awesome14, he is far beyond that....
To top it off Awesome14 is SELLING these on eBAY....with bogus descriptions....no pictures of internals....and for a price that doesn't justify anything he has done. Anyone here or there could easily order the same IC from Mouser or Digikey or wherever, for not much money...slap it on a perfboard...with half way decent components....throw it in a hammond enclosure and probably have BETTER results, for under $50.
So basically this is an eBAY scam, and constitutes fraud....and that is simply shameful....there is nothing innovative or "magical" about the "product"....it's built on nothing more than an application schematic handed down from Burr-Brown to Ti and then from Ti to Awesome14....and he didn't even implement it properly....why would anyone want to help this guy? He is scum...
And if you take a good look in this thread, you will see the firsts attacks come from awesome14.
I agree, in the start, it was looking good, with good points on how to do, and how to evaluate this kind of circuits. But when the people from this forum started to try to get real tests, then the maker came and start to try make everyone to think the same way he does.
Using non-scientific things to explain the circuit, blah blah...
Then, after he show some attacks to whom disagree from him, the things come more comedy... From some pages there is nothing but funny posts, from one side or another.
No big deal. There is somethings that we don't really say to someone, but if he is concerned about this, stop to say something to us (like all that crap about how he get the circuit from heavens, or something about vampires, about the cardiologist who know so much of electronics, about death attempts, how all this are connected to some voltage reference circuit?)
More than a scam, it is a troll.
I would be fun to have a community effort to design an easy DiY EEVblog voltage standard.....NOW that sounds like fun, because we could all measure our "identical" standards against eachother....and log the results....which would actually be a HUGELY useful set of data to take academic indicators from.....imagine a loose comparison of a few dozen identical standards, against all the varying conditions each individual "lab" has.....that sounds like a nice statistical effort and might actually lead to some discovery, for those that don't have any experience in this field and want to learn....and even those who think they know alrady
I have research data to prove my claims.Then show those and everyone will shut-up if they check out :box:
QuoteBefore I post any thing on line I do a quick check, "would I say that to my boss or a friend?"
I strongly support peer review and positive criticism, but it should always be done in a objective way preferably supported by analysis or prior art.
It should never be an attack on the person, his believes or his culture.
I feel the same way, but here it's a different story. It's plain and simple: scam.
No problem if a guy is using a sloppy breadboard reference in his own lab and believes in magic and unrealistic specs. But selling a black box with false claims (2ppm and esoteric bullshit description) for a horrendous price is scam. And I have no mercy for that, especially on ebay where you need to trust the seller when buying stuff. it's like selling 32GB USB sticks that only have 1GB chips inside. Plain and simple scam
My device promises certain performance criteria. It lives up to it's claims. If I can demonstrate financial losses due to your reckless and untruthful comments, be prepared to pay those damages. It is no scam! Until you can prove that any claim I make is false, it would be best not to dig the hole any deeper. I have research data to prove my claims. You have nothing to disprove them. Let's just stick to professional opinions and leave the rest at the door.
I don't see any heatpipes in the teardown
Maybe he thinks all the plated holes in the perf board are heat pipes. After-all, they're metallic and kind of pipe shaped ;D
If you look at the pictures....and try to decipher Awesome14's comment....this is what I believe he is saying....
He has glued a piece of copper foil, between a diode, and the ref IC case....he is calling that a "heatpipe". Ok it's not. I think he is saying that he is cooking that poor little diode, and expecting that a thin piece of copper foil is somehow transferring enough thermal energy from the poor little diode (which is his "heater") to "stabilize" the REF IC. The efficiency of heat transfer across that piece of foil is nil. Also the diode is right next to a shit bottom of the barrel trimmer....which hasn't even had the wiper screw glued in place. So in essence he is creating more of a problem than solving one. The majority of heat (which is hardly any) is not traveling across the copper foil to the REF innards....it's just traveling, via convection, into the case of the trimmer.
Ok fine...even then I doubt this has any significant impact on anything in this circuit. If his theory is to heat the case of the REF then why not just take some nichrome wire...zig zag it across the top of the REF IC case....bond it thermally and run some current through it? That would be far more efficient than his method....and still that isn't the proper way to ovenize this package.
This all could be avoided...by simply designing a proper PCB....with a thermal layer...bonded to a TO (can) REF IC, in the dead bug config....bond the case of the TO package to the thermal layer with some thermal "grease"....and then bond a proper controlled heater to the thermal layer....just like everyone else does....
Instead he claims this is somehow innovative, and we are all too stupid too see it....I am sorry but I am all for helping people, but not when they act like some elitist and call everyone here inferior....ESPECIALLY when they have ZERO basis in their claims...NO data to prove anything and start talking about being handed circuit designs from God himself....throw in vampires, angles, and whatever other bullshit is flying out of this guys mouth, and I just don't feel like being nice anymore....
I said back on page one, that the REF102C is in fact an excellent monolithic ref IC.....I have worked with them many times, and if you hand select (bin) the IC, you can easily get better than 2ppm per year stability....out of the plastic package. No big deal there.
What I am amazed at is that DESPITE the poor layout and construction of Awesome14's "reference" the Ti REF102C is getting anywhere near 2ppm stability (+/- so 4ppm really) for even a day or two....I still see zero data showing anything about stability over 30, 90, 180, 256,etc etc etc days....
If anything I say this whole scenario just shows how good the REF102C can be....even when someone who has no idea what they are doing slaps one together with perfboard....shit components and construction techniques....
Again I have used the REF102C in a proper ovenized enclosure design...with proper supporting components, and it's a nice little IC, for a reasonable cost.....easy to implement etc etc etc....and IF you hand select the IC you CAN get better than 1.5ppm stability over a year or more....fine, no big deal...that is not innovative, astounding or anything other than "decent".....
The claims of "heatpipes" and "revolutionary design"....and then insulting us all on the basis that since we don't agree, we are somehow mentally inferior and closed minded...is simply going past the point where I feel like lending any advice or being a nice guy....
So again the only conclusion here, is that DESPITE Awesome14's total ignorance and terrible mental disabilities, the REF102C is a half way decent REF IC....I am mainly still here reading and commenting, because I find this entire thread utterly hilarious, on the basis of the divine claims, breaking the laws of physics claims, assassination conspiracy etc etc etc....it's pure comedy at this point....nothing anyone says here is actually going to help Awesome14, he is far beyond that....
To top it off Awesome14 is SELLING these on eBAY....with bogus descriptions....no pictures of internals....and for a price that doesn't justify anything he has done. Anyone here or there could easily order the same IC from Mouser or Digikey or wherever, for not much money...slap it on a perfboard...with half way decent components....throw it in a hammond enclosure and probably have BETTER results, for under $50.
So basically this is an eBAY scam, and constitutes fraud....and that is simply shameful....there is nothing innovative or "magical" about the "product"....it's built on nothing more than an application schematic handed down from Burr-Brown to Ti and then from Ti to Awesome14....and he didn't even implement it properly....why would anyone want to help this guy? He is scum...
I am not required to show internals on eBay. Nothing in my listing constitutes fraud. People have commented in this thread that the device is "dead on" according to their meters. I'm not at all ashamed of a +-2ppm standard that works. It even holds its calibration when shipped powered down. Many people have evaluated this product, and not one has found my claims to be incorrect. I feel sorry for you. You have no ground to stand on, so you resort to unfounded personal attacks. I doesn't bother me what you think of me. But please don't level unfounded criticisms against my invention. Thank you for your kind consideration in this matter.
And if you take a good look in this thread, you will see the firsts attacks come from awesome14.
I agree, in the start, it was looking good, with good points on how to do, and how to evaluate this kind of circuits. But when the people from this forum started to try to get real tests, then the maker came and start to try make everyone to think the same way he does.
Using non-scientific things to explain the circuit, blah blah...
Then, after he show some attacks to whom disagree from him, the things come more comedy... From some pages there is nothing but funny posts, from one side or another.
No big deal. There is somethings that we don't really say to someone, but if he is concerned about this, stop to say something to us (like all that crap about how he get the circuit from heavens, or something about vampires, about the cardiologist who know so much of electronics, about death attempts, how all this are connected to some voltage reference circuit?)
More than a scam, it is a troll.
Show me one place where I did anything but tell the truth. I didn't attack anyone.
My device promises certain performance criteria. It lives up to it's claims. If I can demonstrate financial losses due to your reckless and untruthful comments, be prepared to pay those damages. It is no scam! Until you can prove that any claim I make is false, it would be best not to dig the hole any deeper. I have research data to prove my claims. You have nothing to disprove them. Let's just stick to professional opinions and leave the rest at the door.
Let's see Awesome14 defend each of those points with real data.
@richiem:Just a note: The temperature drift of the D-105 DC is not linear. The figure is obtained by: (deltaVDC between 16C and and 26C)/10 degrees. ex. output at 16C=9.999980; output at 26C=10.000012; 10.000012-9.999980=3.2uVDC/10=0.32uVDC/degreeC.
That's a bit unfair to the Geller design, because you are not using the temperature compensated SVR-T, so you are comparing apples to oranges. I suspect the Geller SVR-T would be almost a straight line with temperature, as that is what he obtained for each unit in his micro-chamber after adding the thermistor and "tuned" resistor. Note that the TC of resistors [and therefore monolithic voltage reference outputs] does not change with time unless they are severely abused [like super high temperature exposure, etc.]. So, once a TC is obtained and set, there is no reason to do it again, any only the voltage offset will need trimming from time to time, and this is mainly due to resistor absolute value drift.
Can you borrow an SVR-T from someone and run the test again of the D-105 vs. SVR-T?
@richiem:Just a note: The temperature drift of the D-105 DC is not linear. The figure is obtained by: (deltaVDC between 16C and and 26C)/10 degrees. ex. output at 16C=9.999980; output at 26C=10.000012; 10.000012-9.999980=3.2uVDC/10=0.32uVDC/degreeC.
That's a bit unfair to the Geller design, because you are not using the temperature compensated SVR-T, so you are comparing apples to oranges. I suspect the Geller SVR-T would be almost a straight line with temperature, as that is what he obtained for each unit in his micro-chamber after adding the thermistor and "tuned" resistor. Note that the TC of resistors [and therefore monolithic voltage reference outputs] does not change with time unless they are severely abused [like super high temperature exposure, etc.]. So, once a TC is obtained and set, there is no reason to do it again, any only the voltage offset will need trimming from time to time, and this is mainly due to resistor absolute value drift.
Can you borrow an SVR-T from someone and run the test again of the D-105 vs. SVR-T?
@richiem:Just a note: The temperature drift of the D-105 DC is not linear. The figure is obtained by: (deltaVDC between 16C and and 26C)/10 degrees. ex. output at 16C=9.999980; output at 26C=10.000012; 10.000012-9.999980=3.2uVDC/10=0.32uVDC/degreeC.
That's a bit unfair to the Geller design, because you are not using the temperature compensated SVR-T, so you are comparing apples to oranges. I suspect the Geller SVR-T would be almost a straight line with temperature, as that is what he obtained for each unit in his micro-chamber after adding the thermistor and "tuned" resistor. Note that the TC of resistors [and therefore monolithic voltage reference outputs] does not change with time unless they are severely abused [like super high temperature exposure, etc.]. So, once a TC is obtained and set, there is no reason to do it again, any only the voltage offset will need trimming from time to time, and this is mainly due to resistor absolute value drift.
Can you borrow an SVR-T from someone and run the test again of the D-105 vs. SVR-T?
This doesn't make sense. How did you come to these calculations?
Sent from my Smartphone
When you make unfounded scientific claims....I have every right to refute them with a foundation of science.....your "heatpipe" concept is bunk and simply doesn't work....sorry but that is a provable fact. Also there is ZERO long term testing data to prove your claims of +/- 2 ppm. Is it possible, sure....and that is in no part due to anything miraculous your have discovered.....you just got a "lucky" IC. Which you already know to be true....and why you sell different graded devices. Some meet spec, some don't.....however you have proven NOT once that they meet a spec over any period of time. Simply sating +/- Xppm is nonsense, as that is a static measurement.....and the real world is a dynamic environment.....not one manufacturer makes a claim of ppm drift, without adding a measurement of time to it...But you refute nothing if you just say, "NO, you're wrong," when you don't really know yourself. If you want to refute my claims, then refute them. But don't just keep saying I'm incorrect without substantiating it somehow.
So again let's see your 30 day, 60 day, 90 day, 180, day etc etc etc numbers....THEN you can make a wholesale claim of XYZppm over time.....until then it's bullshit.....
Also if it doesn't bother you what myself or others think, then why do you keep responding? Also you should be bothered by what others think, because you have a product to sell.....you rlack of data and attitude have ensured that I will never buy anything from you....if you don't care about that, then you don't care about business......instead of offering proof or data to back any claims, and convincing some of us here that we should buy your product, you have done exactly the opposite....
I don't see Fluke claiming they were handed superior designs from God, or their CEO making any claims about conspiracy theories, regarding assassination attempts.....YOU brought that stuff up, and defamed yourself....you could have said nothing and just posted data to shut us all up....but again you came here with a superiority complex....and then made wild, bogus claims about things like "heatpipe" technology....which your device clearly does NOT employ....nor would it do anything to help the ref with stability if it did.....
AND THAT IS FRAUD......if you need me to link the definition I am happy to http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/fraud (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/fraud)
Bravo TunerSandwich. Let's see Awesome14 defend each of those points with real data.
By my calculations, this thread has already given him around $500 from members buying his shitty reference. Some bought it *after* his claims of Jesuit Vampires. Why?!?! Why would you do that!
It would be like if the CEO of Fluke came out tomorrow and said, "From here on out, we'll be giving 50% of our profits to the legal defense of NAMBLA members. Child molestation has always been a passion here at Fluke and we want to give back to the boy-love community at large."
Now I don't know about the rest of you, but I run on an anti-boy rape platform as a general rule. If Fluke said this, I'd stop buying their equipment. If everyone did this it would stop the advancement of their agenda.
Likewise, I don't run on the woowoo pseudoscience platform, so I won't give Awesome14 my money and you shouldn't either. Why reward the conman in trying to disprove his claims. He's still getting richer from it. Instead, make *him* provide data to back up his claims, if not dismiss it.
Sent from my Smartphone
I make no claims regarding long-term drift of the D-105 DC, except 2.5ppm/1,000 hours of use. If you don't like it, I apologize, but that's just the way it is. I am not required to supply proof for claims I DON'T make! But that's only common sense; at least to me it is.
I say the device is 10VDC +-2ppm. How am I supposed to prove that? I make one claim of long-term drift specification: 2.5ppm/1,000 hours of use. How am I supposed to prove that? And why are you demanding proof for claims I DON"T make? If you're belief is that everyone has to prove they're not lying about everything, then why live? What a terrible world! I did not say anything the people here accuse me of saying. I said, "I inspired it from God," which I did. I've inspired other things from God also. You're not required to like it, but do not add or subtract from my actual words.My device promises certain performance criteria. It lives up to it's claims. If I can demonstrate financial losses due to your reckless and untruthful comments, be prepared to pay those damages. It is no scam! Until you can prove that any claim I make is false, it would be best not to dig the hole any deeper. I have research data to prove my claims. You have nothing to disprove them. Let's just stick to professional opinions and leave the rest at the door.
It is up to the person making a claim to prove it. Nobody can disprove your claim or claims. You claim that the design was a gift from your god. How does anyone disprove such an extraordinary claim? You claim that your device performs 2.5X better SVR. Prove it or shut up. I don't believe your claims of divine inspiration and if YOU claim something, YOU prove it. It is the same with every woowoo believer, they ant everyone else to prove them wrong on unclear claims. If you think your attitude here helps improve your sales then perhaps your god gave you the wrong attitude to go along with his design.
To claim damages you have to prove 3 things. You have to prove intent to damage your reputation, that the action actually damaged your reputation, and that the reputation wasn't already deserved or assigned before the action. I have an opinion, mine, for me. You are not a rational person and your design is just a basic replication of a reference design, the ideas you have are woowoo, and the construction techniques are what I would expect from a naive audiophool who has no idea of the real world and maybe a ten year old making his first circuit. In other words, I will never buy anything from you and each time you have opened your mouth here, never gets longer.
OK, I forgot to update that listing with the new figures. I implore God's Mercy upon me: that you be smote, because you have no respect for others. I pray that God Almighty get you out of my way, today! You earned it.
I make no claims regarding long-term drift of the D-105 DC, except 2.5ppm/1,000 hours of use. If you don't like it, I apologize, but that's just the way it is. I am not required to supply proof for claims I DON'T make! But that's only common sense; at least to me it is.
" Long-term drift is <1.5ppm/1,000 hours of use, and decreases with age."
quoted DIRECTLY from your eBAY ad.....
(http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o282/madgreed/drift.jpg)
(Emphasis mine)
Is it just me, or does it seem like several of the members on this thread lack sound judgment, as if they're drunk or high. Such seething, venomous and groundless abuse, and with such diligence; Truly Satan has infiltrated this board.
OK, I forgot to update that listing with the new figures.
I make no claims regarding long-term drift of the D-105 DC, except 2.5ppm/1,000 hours of use. If you don't like it, I apologize, but that's just the way it is. I am not required to supply proof for claims I DON'T make! But that's only common sense; at least to me it is.
" Long-term drift is <1.5ppm/1,000 hours of use, and decreases with age."
quoted DIRECTLY from your eBAY ad.....
(http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o282/madgreed/drift.jpg)
OK, I forgot to update that listing with the new figures. I implore God's Mercy upon me: that you be smote, because you have no respect for others. I pray that God Almighty get you out of my way, today! You earned it.
I make no claims regarding long-term drift of the D-105 DC, except 2.5ppm/1,000 hours of use. If you don't like it, I apologize, but that's just the way it is. I am not required to supply proof for claims I DON'T make! But that's only common sense; at least to me it is.
" Long-term drift is <1.5ppm/1,000 hours of use, and decreases with age."
quoted DIRECTLY from your eBAY ad.....
(http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o282/madgreed/drift.jpg)
I say the device is 10VDC +-2ppm. How am I supposed to prove that? I make one claim of long-term drift specification: 2.5ppm/1,000 hours of use. How am I supposed to prove that?My device promises certain performance criteria. It lives up to it's claims. If I can demonstrate financial losses due to your reckless and untruthful comments, be prepared to pay those damages. It is no scam! Until you can prove that any claim I make is false, it would be best not to dig the hole any deeper. I have research data to prove my claims. You have nothing to disprove them. Let's just stick to professional opinions and leave the rest at the door.
It is up to the person making a claim to prove it. Nobody can disprove your claim or claims. You claim that the design was a gift from your god. How does anyone disprove such an extraordinary claim? You claim that your device performs 2.5X better SVR. Prove it or shut up. I don't believe your claims of divine inspiration and if YOU claim something, YOU prove it. It is the same with every woowoo believer, they ant everyone else to prove them wrong on unclear claims. If you think your attitude here helps improve your sales then perhaps your god gave you the wrong attitude to go along with his design.
To claim damages you have to prove 3 things. You have to prove intent to damage your reputation, that the action actually damaged your reputation, and that the reputation wasn't already deserved or assigned before the action. I have an opinion, mine, for me. You are not a rational person and your design is just a basic replication of a reference design, the ideas you have are woowoo, and the construction techniques are what I would expect from a naive audiophool who has no idea of the real world and maybe a ten year old making his first circuit. In other words, I will never buy anything from you and each time you have opened your mouth here, never gets longer.
Bravo TunerSandwich. Let's see Awesome14 defend each of those points with real data.
By my calculations, this thread has already given him around $500 from members buying his shitty reference. Some bought it *after* his claims of Jesuit Vampires. Why?!?! Why would you do that!
It would be like if the CEO of Fluke came out tomorrow and said, "From here on out, we'll be giving 50% of our profits to the legal defense of NAMBLA members. Child molestation has always been a passion here at Fluke and we want to give back to the boy-love community at large."
Now I don't know about the rest of you, but I run on an anti-boy rape platform as a general rule. If Fluke said this, I'd stop buying their equipment. If everyone did this it would stop the advancement of their agenda.
Likewise, I don't run on the woowoo pseudoscience platform, so I won't give Awesome14 my money and you shouldn't either. Why reward the conman in trying to disprove his claims. He's still getting richer from it. Instead, make *him* provide data to back up his claims, if not dismiss it.
Sent from my Smartphone
You're another little satan. I pray that God place adversity in your path, so you can learn respect for others, and so that your immortal soul might be saved. Within the next 24 hours you will suffer in a way you have not suffered before. If you apologize, the suffering will cease after a time! I don't intend to harm you in any way. I wish you could be spared the torment, but God cares about you. He wants you to turn toward him. And believe me, you will!
Is it just me, or does it seem like several of the members on this thread lack sound judgment, as if they're drunk or high. Such seething, venomous and groundless abuse, and with such diligence; Truly Satan has infiltrated this board. I'm tired of it and I don't have time to field this ridiculous nonsense. I won't resort to destructive abuse, but I will say that some of you are sealing your own fate. You're like rabid dogs, fit for nothing but transmitting the disease. You're near the end, and you don't know it. Some of you will be gone very soon. I look with pity upon those who presumed falsely. And why do you want to harm me? I have done nothing wrong or worthy of revenge. You need help! I'm going to get it for you.
I should change my forum username to "Lil' Satan"! My tag line could be the backwards lyrics from Stairway to Heaven: "Here's to my sweet Satan, six six six."
XD
Seriously though, it's not me that's going to be suffering, but your eBay sales! This thread is the top result when searching for your calibrator on Google.
Sent from my Smartphone
Is it just me, or does it seem like several of the members on this thread lack sound judgment, as if they're drunk or high. Such seething, venomous and groundless abuse, and with such diligence; Truly Satan has infiltrated this board. I'm tired of it and I don't have time to field this ridiculous nonsense. I won't resort to destructive abuse, but I will say that some of you are sealing your own fate. You're like rabid dogs, fit for nothing but transmitting the disease. You're near the end, and you don't know it. Some of you will be gone very soon. I look with pity upon those who presumed falsely. And why do you want to harm me? I have done nothing wrong or worthy of revenge. You need help! I'm going to get it for you.
Awsome14,
If you would let me make a suggestion. The EEVblog is one of the largest electronic engineering forums on the internet with a huge international audience of electronics and science professionals, hobbyists and beginners. With that said, you may want to leave the religious references out of this conversation and stick to the science. Instead of trying to defend your claims with visions from God or threats of wrath from God, spend the time to put together some data which can support your claims. I have seen many people including myself blasted by certain individuals here, but much like Youtube that is unavoidable and you can learn from it rather than fight it. Every product has room for improvement, even the most polished product can be picked at to find improvements. Take the good advice from here and use it to your advantage, look at how other companies qualify their measurement products and emulate that.
It's pretty simple, just qualify your product with some hard data to back it up! This will not only help you in sales but can boost your reputation in the process. If you are not sure how to do this effectively then ask. There are plenty with the knowledge to point you in the right direction. Also, look at ways to improve your design, take suggestions and criticism as a blessing that can be used as information to make these improvements. I have seen a lot of good healthy skepticism on this thread that can be very useful in fine-tuning your product.
Just my two cents! ;D
QuoteI should change my forum username to "Lil' Satan"! My tag line could be the backwards lyrics from Stairway to Heaven: "Here's to my sweet Satan, six six six."But you won't be bothering me much longer, because I've asked the Owner of The Universe to clear you out of my way.
XD
Seriously though, it's not me that's going to be suffering, but your eBay sales! This thread is the top result when searching for your calibrator on Google.
Sent from my Smartphone
:palm:+1
This is what I claim: +-2ppm, 2.5ppm/1,000 hours of use; temperature range: 16-26C; temperature drift: 0.15ppm/C. If people refuse to believe it, I can't make them believe. But I have data from 2 different sources that prove my claims are reasonable. I really don't know what else I can do. I'm always going to gather more data, but I think it's unreasonable to ask me to supply data to support claims I DON'T make.
I am in tune to what the other members suggest, but I am working within constraints that are presently stretched to the limit. I can make a really great standard, but it's expensive. LT has a note on a precision reference that uses the LT1000. LT built one for their A/D converter. They monitor it with 3 3458s. It has drifted 3ppm in ten years of continuous operation. I have heard some good suggestions.
One problem with a PCB is the design is not the same for every unit. Each unit is customized to a certain degree, and many have a different selection of certain components. I know no one believes me, but the only way to prove them wrong is to make a totally different standard that proves my design is better. I'm not doing this to make a lot of money, but I would like to develop a reputation for who I am and the kind of work I do.
I have independent people doing research on the D-105 DC as I write this. So far it's quite encouraging. No one has demonstrated that any claim I have made is false. But I could work on a detailed spec sheet.
Is it just me, or does it seem like several of the members on this thread lack sound judgment, as if they're drunk or high. Such seething, venomous and groundless abuse, and with such diligence; Truly Satan has infiltrated this board. I'm tired of it and I don't have time to field this ridiculous nonsense. I won't resort to destructive abuse, but I will say that some of you are sealing your own fate. You're like rabid dogs, fit for nothing but transmitting the disease. You're near the end, and you don't know it. Some of you will be gone very soon. I look with pity upon those who presumed falsely. And why do you want to harm me? I have done nothing wrong or worthy of revenge. You need help! I'm going to get it for you.
Awsome14,
If you would let me make a suggestion. The EEVblog is one of the largest electronic engineering forums on the internet with a huge international audience of electronics and science professionals, hobbyists and beginners. With that said, you may want to leave the religious references out of this conversation and stick to the science. Instead of trying to defend your claims with visions from God or threats of wrath from God, spend the time to put together some data which can support your claims. I have seen many people including myself blasted by certain individuals here, but much like Youtube that is unavoidable and you can learn from it rather than fight it. Every product has room for improvement, even the most polished product can be picked at to find improvements. Take the good advice from here and use it to your advantage, look at how other companies qualify their measurement products and emulate that.
It's pretty simple, just qualify your product with some hard data to back it up! This will not only help you in sales but can boost your reputation in the process. If you are not sure how to do this effectively then ask. There are plenty with the knowledge to point you in the right direction. Also, look at ways to improve your design, take suggestions and criticism as a blessing that can be used as information to make these improvements. I have seen a lot of good healthy skepticism on this thread that can be very useful in fine-tuning your product.
Just my two cents! ;D
This is what I claim: +-2ppm, 2.5ppm/1,000 hours of use; temperature range: 16-26C; temperature drift: 0.15ppm/C. If people refuse to believe it, I can't make them believe. But I have data from 2 different sources that prove my claims are reasonable. I really don't know what else I can do. I'm always going to gather more data, but I think it's unreasonable to ask me to supply data to support claims I DON'T make.
OK, I forgot to update that listing with the new figures. I implore God's Mercy upon me: that you be smote, because you have no respect for others. I pray that God Almighty get you out of my way, today! You earned it.
I make no claims regarding long-term drift of the D-105 DC, except 2.5ppm/1,000 hours of use. If you don't like it, I apologize, but that's just the way it is. I am not required to supply proof for claims I DON'T make! But that's only common sense; at least to me it is.
" Long-term drift is <1.5ppm/1,000 hours of use, and decreases with age."
quoted DIRECTLY from your eBAY ad.....
(http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o282/madgreed/drift.jpg)
Unfortunately, I was one of the first one to buy this crab, long before the first pictures emerged.
Unfortunately, I was one of the first one to buy this crab, long before the first pictures emerged.
The unit arrived today.
Here is my little tear down and the pictures.
The soldering looks like it was done by a hobbyist that just started his new hobby and tested on a few spots.
Some stranded cables have some strands looking out and almost touch other connections.
It is horrible from any aspect of engineering.
It is even horrible from a hobbyist point of view.
I would never have bought it, after the first pictures got shown here.
But, well, I have it now.
I will hook it up to my 34461A, just to get some data and see the performance.
OMG, what did we get in to.
Unfortunately, I was one of the first one to buy this crab, long before the first pictures emerged.
The unit arrived today.
Here is my little tear down and the pictures.
The soldering looks like it was done by a hobbyist that just started his new hobby and tested on a few spots.
Some stranded cables have some strands looking out and almost touch other connections.
It is horrible from any aspect of engineering.
It is even horrible from a hobbyist point of view.
I would never have bought it, after the first pictures got shown here.
But, well, I have it now.
I will hook it up to my 34461A, just to get some data and see the performance.
OMG, what did we get in to.
But you won't be bothering me much longer, because I've asked the Owner of The Universe to clear you out of my way.
Unfortunately, I was one of the first one to buy this crab, long before the first pictures emerged.
The unit arrived today.
Here is my little tear down and the pictures.
The soldering looks like it was done by a hobbyist that just started his new hobby and tested on a few spots.
Some stranded cables have some strands looking out and almost touch other connections.
It is horrible from any aspect of engineering.
It is even horrible from a hobbyist point of view.
I would never have bought it, after the first pictures got shown here.
But, well, I have it now.
I will hook it up to my 34461A, just to get some data and see the performance.
OMG, what did we get in to.
Quite embarrassing isn't it? It was a gamble, but I am not going to get too upset over 99 bucks because I knew I was taking a chance when I purchased it. So hey, I am trying to be optimistic and just move on to the next! I may be able to make chicken salad out of this chicken shit somehow!
Unfortunately, I was one of the first one to buy this crab, long before the first pictures emerged.Let's be fair. You took it apart and broke it! You had no practical reason to disassemble the unit. If you hadn't done that, it would still be working perfectly! The unit arrives sealed. There is no reason to open it. You can understand that.
The unit arrived today.
Here is my little tear down and the pictures.
The soldering looks like it was done by a hobbyist that just started his new hobby and tested on a few spots.
Some stranded cables have some strands looking out and almost touch other connections.
It is horrible from any aspect of engineering.
It is even horrible from a hobbyist point of view.
I would never have bought it, after the first pictures got shown here.
But, well, I have it now.
I will hook it up to my 34461A, just to get some data and see the performance.
OMG, what did we get in to.
It's even more sad that people intentionally break stuff, blame the manufacturer, and then say it's sad that the manufacturer exists.Unfortunately, I was one of the first one to buy this crab, long before the first pictures emerged.
The unit arrived today.
Here is my little tear down and the pictures.
The soldering looks like it was done by a hobbyist that just started his new hobby and tested on a few spots.
Some stranded cables have some strands looking out and almost touch other connections.
It is horrible from any aspect of engineering.
It is even horrible from a hobbyist point of view.
I would never have bought it, after the first pictures got shown here.
But, well, I have it now.
I will hook it up to my 34461A, just to get some data and see the performance.
OMG, what did we get in to.
Quite embarrassing isn't it? It was a gamble, but I am not going to get too upset over 99 bucks because I knew I was taking a chance when I purchased it. So hey, I am trying to be optimistic and just move on to the next! I may be able to make chicken salad out of this chicken shit somehow!
Same here, I am not upset about the $$.
It is just sad, that such people exist.
I'm not the least bit embarrassed, because the performance is stellar if the user doesn't break the unit. Truth will win out in the end. What was Truth is Truth now, and it always will be Truth. There is One Truth! Everything else is w-r-o-n-g !Unfortunately, I was one of the first one to buy this crab, long before the first pictures emerged.
The unit arrived today.
Here is my little tear down and the pictures.
The soldering looks like it was done by a hobbyist that just started his new hobby and tested on a few spots.
Some stranded cables have some strands looking out and almost touch other connections.
It is horrible from any aspect of engineering.
It is even horrible from a hobbyist point of view.
I would never have bought it, after the first pictures got shown here.
But, well, I have it now.
I will hook it up to my 34461A, just to get some data and see the performance.
OMG, what did we get in to.
Quite embarrassing isn't it? It was a gamble, but I am not going to get too upset over 99 bucks because I knew I was taking a chance when I purchased it. So hey, I am trying to be optimistic and just move on to the next! I may be able to make chicken salad out of this chicken shit somehow!
The construction didn't magically change when it was opened.
The construction didn't magically change when it was opened. I hardly see how one can justify poor construction by blaming the person who discovered it.The construction of these units is superb. There is nothing left to chance. Causing a defect + simultaneous discovery of the defect = causing the defect. If the unit was defective before it was sent out, it wouldn't have been sent out. All units are thoroughly and exhaustively tested before shipment. It is possible one could still slip through, but when the defect is caused after the device leaves our custody, and the user disassembled the unit, the user is at fault.
The construction of these units is superb.
If the unit is damaged by taking the cover off, it's not a product. Period. End of story.Your wrong! There is no reason to ever disassemble the unit, even to calibrate it! No matter how many times you say the same wrong thing, it will never be true. I'm the manufacturer. I say the unit cannot be disassembled by the user. If the user does so, and the unit malfunctions, it's the user's fault for disregarding the obvious seal on the product.
I have adjusted and repaired many thousands of boxes over decades. Not once did they ever get damaged when I pulled the cover off.
It is not only reasonable, but expected to be able to take apart for basic service and calibration.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If the unit is damaged by taking the cover off, it's not a product. Period. End of story.Your wrong! There is no reason to ever disassemble the unit, even to calibrate it! No matter how many times you say the same wrong thing, it will never be true. I'm the manufacturer. I say the unit cannot be disassembled by the user. If the user does so, and the unit malfunctions, it's the user's fault for disregarding the obvious seal on the product.
I have adjusted and repaired many thousands of boxes over decades. Not once did they ever get damaged when I pulled the cover off.
It is not only reasonable, but expected to be able to take apart for basic service and calibration.
Believe it or not, most people do not buy a voltage standard and then take it apart! News Flash! Most people leave it together and use it for its intended purpose. But I never could have anticipated what I found on this board. If I would have known the horrible injustice that awaited me, I would have just bought real estate! But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I had to try to do something truly good, to add something to the world, to actually help the very community you meddlers occupy!
It may seem strange to some of you here, but I can easily afford to take a bulldozer and plow my voltage-standard enterprise into a landfill. After meeting the problem children on this board, I'm thinking about it. I have met here the rudest and most unreasonable people I have ever met in my life. And that is saying a lot! Your tactics are those of abject wickedness! You have a corrupt agenda, and you follow it no matter what the cost.
I think it's sad that a few members on this board piss away your pathetic lives bent on destruction rather than production.
It works well. Try doing better than that on a proto board. You are attempting to do me intentional harm. Shame on you! Why are you doing that? I have done nothing wrong. I manufacture a superb product. If you are one to judge only by appearances, you can't see the truth! And if you're so concerned with doing me harm, I hold you captive, because you really can't harm me. The product performs superbly when used according to even the most basic common sense.The construction of these units is superb.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/calibratory-d-105-dc-precision-voltage-reference-standard/?action=dlattach;attach=135515;image)
Really, does anything more need to be said? This is high comedy.
No one is forcing you to read it.QuoteNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh my god dude shut up. You read like you're hyperventilating. Go breathe into a bag or take some pills or something.
You are now saying that your voltage reference is going to be accurate within 1.5ppm of 10 volts forever? It never needs calibration as the only way to calibrate is to open it and adjust the pots, but if there is never any reason? Ohhhh, I know, a little holy ghost gets born inside the tomb of your device and adjusts the pots then dies and goes back to heaven! This is to absolve all the sinning voltage references in the world, if only we would believe in your gift from your god.It has closed-chassis calibration controls. That means you don't need to open the chassis to calibrate the unit.
No, I mean lest you embarrass yourself further... I'm finding this rather entertaining, actually...I'm not the least bit embarrassed to speak the truth. The final testimony of those who hated truth will be their rotting corpses, dry bones, and finally, dust, while truth lives of forever. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my word shall never pass away!
I'm not the least bit embarrassed to speak the truth.
The final testimony of those who hated truth will be their rotting corpses, dry bones, and finally, dust, while truth lives of forever. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my word shall never pass away!
It works well. Try doing better than that on a proto board. You are attempting to do me intentional harm. Shame on you! Why are you doing that?
Just so it is said, the evil and wicked people here on the EEVBlog have been remarkably patient and giving of their time and knowledge for pretty much every one of the thousands and thousands of threads. There are some VERY smart individulas that have been kind enough to share unique and amazing knowledge that has allowed me to grow as a circuit designer far faster than if I was just reading books. Real world, practical ideas and solutions are being shared in a delightfully free community atmosphere. There are basic questions being answered. There are advanced questions being answered here. That is why I participate - so much knowledge to soak up from those that are much smarter than I am. Sometimes I may be able to offer something constructive.My device performs better than anything else in its class. And I have had people remark in this thread that the treatment I have received is utterly reprehensible, without merit, recklessly irresponsible, for no excuse can be made! Go through this entire thread an show me one thing I said to deserve the miserable treatment I have received.
If you ask anyone on earth to review this little conversation, you may be surprised to find out that it will be hard for anyone to agree with you.
Let me know if you can find a single piece of electronics test equipment of any other professional piece of electronics that is instantly damaged by taking the cover off. It may be true of a consumer USB wall charger, but not lab gear. It's not repetition of words that makes these observations true - facts are facts are facts are facts.
Early on in this conversation, you had an opportunity to learn and step up your offering to a level that could be acceptable to the hobby community and maybe even professionals at some point. You blew that opportunity over and over. Your device and responses to comments are something I have never seen in my entire life - and I work in the entertainment industry. Don't blame the people here for your issues. The group has been very soft and gentle considering what you have brought to the conversation.
Good luck with all your future endeavors. Luck may be your only chance......
It has closed-chassis calibration controls. That means you don't need to open the chassis to calibrate the unit.
And how do you do that exactly?
And how do you do that exactly?Prayer
Just so it is said, the evil and wicked people here on the EEVBlog have been remarkably patient and giving of their time and knowledge for pretty much every one of the thousands and thousands of threads. There are some VERY smart individulas that have been kind enough to share unique and amazing knowledge that has allowed me to grow as a circuit designer far faster than if I was just reading books. Real world, practical ideas and solutions are being shared in a delightfully free community atmosphere. There are basic questions being answered. There are advanced questions being answered here. That is why I participate - so much knowledge to soak up from those that are much smarter than I am. Sometimes I may be able to offer something constructive.I did not ask for help. I found this miserable thread already started, disparaging me and my product, based purely on conjecture. I tried to make the truth known, but the community wasn't interested. I think it might be the fact that I didn't require outside help for development that turned people here against me. I only heard of this board a short time ago. I myself am an astounding electronics guy.
If you ask anyone on earth to review this little conversation, you may be surprised to find out that it will be hard for anyone to agree with you.
Let me know if you can find a single piece of electronics test equipment of any other professional piece of electronics that is instantly damaged by taking the cover off. It may be true of a consumer USB wall charger, but not lab gear. It's not repetition of words that makes these observations true - facts are facts are facts are facts.
Early on in this conversation, you had an opportunity to learn and step up your offering to a level that could be acceptable to the hobby community and maybe even professionals at some point. You blew that opportunity over and over. Your device and responses to comments are something I have never seen in my entire life - and I work in the entertainment industry. Don't blame the people here for your issues. The group has been very soft and gentle considering what you have brought to the conversation.
Good luck with all your future endeavors. Luck may be your only chance......
And how do you do that exactly?Prayer
My guess is Transistor Man:
(http://i.stack.imgur.com/FT8mP.png)
Your wrong! There is no reason to ever disassemble the unit, even to calibrate it!
Just so it is said, the evil and wicked people here on the EEVBlog have been remarkably patient and giving of their time and knowledge for pretty much every one of the thousands and thousands of threads. There are some VERY smart individulas that have been kind enough to share unique and amazing knowledge that has allowed me to grow as a circuit designer far faster than if I was just reading books. Real world, practical ideas and solutions are being shared in a delightfully free community atmosphere. There are basic questions being answered. There are advanced questions being answered here. That is why I participate - so much knowledge to soak up from those that are much smarter than I am. Sometimes I may be able to offer something constructive.I did not ask for help. I found this miserable thread already started, disparaging me and my product, based purely on conjecture. I tried to make the truth known, but the community wasn't interested. I think it might be the fact that I didn't require outside help for development that turned people here against me. I only heard of this board a short time ago. I myself am an astounding electronics guy.
If you ask anyone on earth to review this little conversation, you may be surprised to find out that it will be hard for anyone to agree with you.
Let me know if you can find a single piece of electronics test equipment of any other professional piece of electronics that is instantly damaged by taking the cover off. It may be true of a consumer USB wall charger, but not lab gear. It's not repetition of words that makes these observations true - facts are facts are facts are facts.
Early on in this conversation, you had an opportunity to learn and step up your offering to a level that could be acceptable to the hobby community and maybe even professionals at some point. You blew that opportunity over and over. Your device and responses to comments are something I have never seen in my entire life - and I work in the entertainment industry. Don't blame the people here for your issues. The group has been very soft and gentle considering what you have brought to the conversation.
Good luck with all your future endeavors. Luck may be your only chance......
I've never required technical assistance from anyone. That may seem difficult to believe, and I tried to explain how I do it, but I was berated for about six pages for even mentioning it. Thanks for all the help. I came to resolve an issue regarding a product. I'm leaving with more than what I came with. I'll never forget this board and the members I met here.
I've never required technical assistance from anyone. That may seem difficult to believe......
I myself am an astounding electronics guy.
The construction of these units is superb. It works well. Try doing better than that on a proto board.
The unit arrives sealed. There is no reason to open it. You can understand that.
But instead you are claiming that something is wrong with us. This is really unbelievable!
I bet $100 that mini actually works, and is much better!
Your standard looks really good.
How much are you selling them for?
Care to trade?
I have an awesome voltage standard with great claims, that is even inspired by the almighty God.
Richiem, I took the liberty of plotting your data. See attachment. JanI mentioned on the LTZ1000 thread that I was interested to see what Awesome14's D-105 could do so I was buying one. It came yesterday. In the interest of more light and less heat, here is what I've found so far. The results are not metrology lab measurements -- they are a guide only, but I've provided enough info to make the results useful. One note -- I have thought for a while that my HP 3458A is reading 10VDC about 6ppm high, although it is in spec....
Calibratory D-105 10V standard evaluation, started on 2-7-15
Instruments used in evaluation:
— HP 3458A, calibration checked on 7 Aug. 2014, by Keysight in Loveleand — no adjustments made, found to be completely in spec; this is the standard model — 8ppm ref board. Used to monitor 10V standard outputs. 3458A powered on for last 6 days; internal temp 36.5 °C. ACAL 1 (DC) run at 4:30PM. NPLC=60, NDIG=8
— HP 3456A, cal’d against HP 3458A. Used for monitoring ambient temps with Pt100 RTD.
— Heath 2718 Linear Triple Bench Supply — each 20V supply powering one standard..
— Geller SVR (not the temp comp unit), purchased in 2007, used for approximately 12 hours total since then up to this time. On for the last 8 hours (included in total of 12), since 8AM with 15VDC power. Geller’s 2007 certificate says 10.000 00V, Tolerance 5ppm/°C, 15ppm/1k hrs. Cal’d at 23°C ambient.
D-105 unboxed in lab at 4PM. Connected to bench supply at 14.5VDC, initial ambient temp at case 23.0 °C. Ambient measured immediately adjacent to and in between the two standards, all sitting on top of an HP 8904A that was powered off — makes a handy stand with some thermal mass.. D-105 output started a few hundred microvolts below 10V, quickly rose to 10.000 05VDC. Calibratory’s certificate says 10.000 0014V, cal’d at 20°C ambient.
Both the Geller SVR and the D-105 outputs are connected with 24ga. solid copper insulated wires (old-school telephone extension wire) to gold flashed dual banana plugs to ease connections to the 3458A. The wires are soldered to the Geller SVR and clamped in the gold-flashed bindind posts of the D-105.
Elapsed time Ambient Geller SVR D-105
for D-105 °C
0.6 hr 23.5 10.000 060 10.000 058
3.4 hr 22.9 10.000 071 10.000 068
5.3 hr 23.6 10.000 060 10.000 066
6.4 hr 23.8 10.000 053 10.000 068
Overnight break in measurements with lab cool-down to thermostat set 66°F, reheat in AM to 71°F; standards left powered on.
20.1 hr 22.4 10.000 092 10.000 078
22.5 hr 22.5 10.000 088 10.000 078
Moved to warmer location on top of HP 3456A, standards and RTD grouped as before.
22.8 hr 28.9 10.000 017 10.000 047
23 hr 29.3 10.000 002 10.000 042
24 hr 29.5 9.999 997 10.000 043
Standards powered down. Will begin from room ambient start in 18 hours or so.
At this point, a simple "box" of drift v. temp shows that average drift for the D-105 is approximately 0.5ppm/°C; the Geller SVR average drift is approximately 1.4ppm/°C (pretty good).
Well, selling is perhaps a big word. I made one for myself, and have gotten 11 boards. I made 7 boards compete, of witch I have sold 3 for € 14,50 + postage. That boils down to the price of the components + the boards.
I also can offer the boards, without components for €3,00 + postage. The REF5025 is pin compatible with the LT1021. Could be a nice experiment.
no offense to the gentleman who makes the alternate ref mentioned here.....but why do people keep buying these things w/o seeing ANY specs or data.....
Generally surface mount REF IC's aren't as stable as their through hole counterparts.....
no offense to the gentleman who makes the alternate ref mentioned here.....but why do people keep buying these things w/o seeing ANY specs or data.....Is that just due to mechanical stress (where does that come from?) or are other factors at play?
Generally surface mount REF IC's aren't as stable as their through hole counterparts.....
no offense to the gentleman who makes the alternate ref mentioned here.....but why do people keep buying these things w/o seeing ANY specs or data.....Is that just due to mechanical stress (where does that come from?) or are other factors at play?
Generally surface mount REF IC's aren't as stable as their through hole counterparts.....
@JohnnyBerg
I am most def. NOT trying to admonish you or your REF. I can't fault it's design. My comment was meat more towards HiGhVoltage. He seems to be ordering every ref he finds, w/o really getting the facts. So he is going to be disappointed, or at the lest not really have a basis for testing it when it arrives. That most certainly isn't the manufacturers fault.
I did not ask for help. I found this miserable thread already started, disparaging me and my product, based purely on conjecture. I tried to make the truth known, but the community wasn't interested.
*snip*
I've never required technical assistance from anyone. That may seem difficult to believe, and I tried to explain how I do it, but I was berated for about six pages for even mentioning it. Thanks for all the help. I came to resolve an issue regarding a product. I'm leaving with more than what I came with. I'll never forget this board and the members I met here.
@JohnnyBerg
I am most def. NOT trying to admonish you or your REF. I can't fault it's design. My comment was meat more towards HiGhVoltage. He seems to be ordering every ref he finds, w/o really getting the facts. So he is going to be disappointed, or at the lest not really have a basis for testing it when it arrives. That most certainly isn't the manufacturers fault.
Well, I am working on several projects for a client and I will need a good and stable reference and if I do not have to design it myself, I will save some time that I can use for other parts of the project. In this case I will test the reference myself and see if it will fulfill my requirements. It is low cost enough, that I do not worry, if it does not work perfectly.
I am thinking of making a second version, and perhaps I use a dip. I even consider putting the ref on a "island", to minimize the mechanical stress on the device.
When soldering the REF50xx chips, I put the boards on a pre-heater and slowly bring them up to 150c over the course of 30-45 minutes, then I apply a small heatsink to the chip itself and quickly drag solder each side at 265c with eutectic solder. Afterwards I ramp the pre-heater down to 85c over 15 minutes, then 50c over 15 minutes. Then I turn the heater off and leave the boards in place, so they're still receiving heat while the heater cools. I give it an hour or two to come back to ambient.
Overkill? Maybe. But I've got 8 of them going in a 25c chamber for the last 6 months gathering data, so I wanted to give them the best shot I could.
Next I want to put 10 REF5010's in series and make a 100 volt reference to classify.
Sent from my Smartphone
I have a friend here in Germany not far from me, who has a full professional calibration lab.@JohnnyBerg
I am most def. NOT trying to admonish you or your REF. I can't fault it's design. My comment was meat more towards HiGhVoltage. He seems to be ordering every ref he finds, w/o really getting the facts. So he is going to be disappointed, or at the lest not really have a basis for testing it when it arrives. That most certainly isn't the manufacturers fault.
Well, I am working on several projects for a client and I will need a good and stable reference and if I do not have to design it myself, I will save some time that I can use for other parts of the project. In this case I will test the reference myself and see if it will fulfill my requirements. It is low cost enough, that I do not worry, if it does not work perfectly.
The problem is that it's virtually impossible to know if it's "working properly", without a baseline or point of reference to benchmark against.....one option is to grab a known "certified" transfer standard, and then cal 2 meters against it.....then it's easy to make less subjective determinations about random ebay or UN-doccumented "standards".....
I have a friend here in Germany not far from me, who has a full professional calibration lab.@JohnnyBerg
I am most def. NOT trying to admonish you or your REF. I can't fault it's design. My comment was meat more towards HiGhVoltage. He seems to be ordering every ref he finds, w/o really getting the facts. So he is going to be disappointed, or at the lest not really have a basis for testing it when it arrives. That most certainly isn't the manufacturers fault.
Well, I am working on several projects for a client and I will need a good and stable reference and if I do not have to design it myself, I will save some time that I can use for other parts of the project. In this case I will test the reference myself and see if it will fulfill my requirements. It is low cost enough, that I do not worry, if it does not work perfectly.
The problem is that it's virtually impossible to know if it's "working properly", without a baseline or point of reference to benchmark against.....one option is to grab a known "certified" transfer standard, and then cal 2 meters against it.....then it's easy to make less subjective determinations about random ebay or UN-doccumented "standards".....
I use his equipment to verify my SVR-T voltage standard.
huh? Just above you said "Well, I am working on several projects for a client and I will need a good and stable reference "
huh? Just above you said "Well, I am working on several projects for a client and I will need a good and stable reference "
Yes, this is the case.
May be it is not the most perfect solution, but so far it has worked for me.
In order to verify and confirm the voltage reference at my clients facility, I do the following:
1. Take my Geller Labs SVR-T (battery powered) to the professional calibration lab and get it verified.
2. Also take my Agilent 34410A to the same professional lab and get it calibrated.
3. Take both to the clients facility and get the 34410A warmed up.
4. Check the transfer of the SVR-T to be accurate to the 34410A
5. Verify the clients voltage reference with the 34410A.
6. If verified, give the client a paper of conformity based on these steps
Repeat this procedure every 6 month.
So far, my client has accepted this procedure and has also fulfilled his obligations to his customers.
It has closed-chassis calibration controls. That means you don't need to open the chassis to calibrate the unit.
And how do you do that exactly?
Please be precise in your detailed explanation.
Also, please explain by what mechanism removing the rear case causes damage to the circuitry or calibration.
Once again, please be precise.
When soldering the REF50xx chips, I put the .............
SNIP
When soldering the REF50xx chips, I put the .............
SNIP
Ref50xx is a bandgap device, what the point :-//
It has closed-chassis calibration controls. That means you don't need to open the chassis to calibrate the unit.
And how do you do that exactly?
Please be precise in your detailed explanation.
Also, please explain by what mechanism removing the rear case causes damage to the circuitry or calibration.
Once again, please be precise.
Dave not sure why you need this detail. He is correct, you do not need to open it to calibrate it.
Calibration means comparison between measurements.
Clearly you can calibrate it without opening it :-//
When there is a discussion about calibration with a non-technical person, it helps for simplicity sake to use phrase "Calibration-Verification" and "Calibration-adjustment" to differentiate.
Bandgap devices are noisy, they don't really deserve the extra time. They are not suitable for this kind of 'working standard' reference work.When soldering the REF50xx chips, I put the .............
SNIP
Ref50xx is a bandgap device, what the point :-//
Heat still affects it? Just like all encapsulated silicon devices. The thermal shock creates rapid expansion and contraction leading to micro-fissures in the die. They start at the edges and spread inward. It can affect anything from the initial accuracy to long term drift.
Exactly the same as on a Zener based device. Why would you think it wouldn't?
(Incidentally, these cracks tend to appear when a wafer is diced. Laser "trimming" of resistors etc. before encapsulation can worsen them.)
Sent from my Smartphone
It has closed-chassis calibration controls. That means you don't need to open the chassis to calibrate the unit.
And how do you do that exactly?
Please be precise in your detailed explanation.
Also, please explain by what mechanism removing the rear case causes damage to the circuitry or calibration.
Once again, please be precise.
Dave not sure why you need this detail. He is correct, you do not need to open it to calibrate it.
Calibration means comparison between measurements.
Clearly you can calibrate it without opening it :-//
When there is a discussion about calibration with a non-technical person, it helps for simplicity sake to use phrase "Calibration-Verification" and "Calibration-adjustment" to differentiate.
In the case of modern test equipment it's almost always the latter. Stop being pedantic, nobody likes that guy; don't be that guy.
no offense to the gentleman who makes the alternate ref mentioned here.....but why do people keep buying these things w/o seeing ANY specs or data.....
You are absolutely right. I did not give any spec's, but referred to the datasheet. And I did not make any promises, just relaying the datasheet.
My intension has never bin to sell this reference. I made one for myself, and sold the leftovers. Min order was 10 PBC's.
No offense taken.Quote
Generally surface mount REF IC's aren't as stable as their through hole counterparts.....
True again.
I aged all my references, and the datasheet shows clearly that the difference after 1000 hours is only 5 ppm/1000 hours.
I am thinking of making a second version, and perhaps I use a dip. I even consider putting the ref on a "island", to minimize the mechanical stress on the device.
| Reference | Cost | TC | Noise | Tol | Drift |
| REF5025 | $6.00 | 3 (ppm/C) | 7.50 (uV pk-pk) | .05% | 125ppm (1k hrs) 45ppm (2nd 1k hrs) |
| ADR4525 | $6.92 | 2 (ppm/C) | 1.25 (uV pk-pk) | .02% | 25ppm/sqrt(1k hours) |
| AD586M | $9.86 | 2 (ppm/C) | 2.00 (uV pk-pk) | .05% | 15ppm/sqrt(1k hours) |
I aged all my references, and the datasheet shows clearly that the difference after 1000 hours is only 5 ppm/1000 hours.
No! It's 45 or 50ppm/1k hrs after the first 1k hrs (depending on package), not 5ppm! Did you actually bother to read TunerSandwich's post that you replied to?
I'm with TunerSandwich and engineer_in_shorts - what is the point of saving a dollar or two when you are spending a significant amount of time building, testing and ageing a few boards? - how much is your time worth?
There are other choices, such as hermetically sealed references, which may be better if hysterisis is important to you.
The A is the lesser model though...
The A is the lesser model though...
It is not about who has the biggest ..
It is about which device gets the job done.
(http://i61.tinypic.com/2mgl15w.jpg)
Has been so for a week or 2 .. rock solid.
I generally find the REF50xx series fairly consistent from one part to the next. The REF5010's I've been tracking all have an almost identical drift curve. I've also consistently gotten much better than 125ppm/1khr, closer to 25ppm. They're easy to obtain and work with, so I usually use them on boards that have ADC's and DAC's on them.Tim:
(It's also an inexpensive way to make a very accurate 1kV reference. Chain 100 of them together.)
Sent from my Tablet
The Mars-Energo lab used 10,000 REF5010's, connected serially, to create a 100kV reference. Initially they did a test with 100 chips to create a 1000V reference.
Source: http://www.ti.com/lit/an/sbaa203/sbaa203.pdf (http://www.ti.com/lit/an/sbaa203/sbaa203.pdf)
So, some projects that have been "stewing" in my lab are:
- Poor-man's primary voltage transfer standard [based on LTZ1000(A)]
- Poor-man's voltage transfer device
- Poor-man's multi-junction thermal converter for AC/DC transfers
- Poor-man's resistance standards [1R, 10R, 100R, 1K, 10K, 100K, 1M, 10M, 100M, 1G]
- Poor-man's resistance synthesizer [that uses the above resistors to get any value]
- Poor-man's direct current comparator bridge for low resistance measurement
- Poor-man's electrometer for high resistance measurement
- Poor-man's calibrator for DCV, ACV, DCI, ACI
- Poor-man's automatic LCR bridge
- (and a few others that are still in the idea stage)
time + resources to characterize these "el cheapo" components doesn't allow for a "poor mans" anything.....unless your time is worthless :-//
time + resources to characterize these "el cheapo" components doesn't allow for a "poor mans" anything.....unless your time is worthless :-//
Why am I not surprised to hear you say that? In reality a poor man's time is worth very little due to low wage or maybe even no job at all. Fortunately not either for me but I do enjoy accomplishing the most with the least. A wonderful challenge. Unlikely most on this forum have any capacity to understand this philosophy. Maybe one or two others if that, including dannyf who initiated the el-cheapo/ghetto craze.
FYI I'm about half way through a 1000hr characterization of true "poor man's" references. 16 baking in a temperature controlled oven necessary because of wild temperature extremes in my shop. Not including the oven but counting 5 digit meter, datalogger, and references total cost less than $7. As mentioned initial results might be promising for most casual hobbyists but obviously not of any interest to the volt-nerd crowd.
ps. Dog, thanks for the link. I'm really liking this tl431. Even cheaper back-to-back zeners also interesting with almost zero TC by balancing 5.6v to 6.2v parts.
Hi TunerSandwich,
This all depends on your point of view...
time + resources to characterize these "el cheapo" components doesn't allow for a "poor mans" anything.....unless your time is worthless
I spent time on low cost references in building them in ovens.
The out come, not wasted time, but a lot of knowledge on references and ovens.
I never thought that a TL431, LT1234, LT1021 or even a LTZ1000 I use, will be better than a Fluke 732B.
I simply don't have the resources to characterize them.
I have i different point of view, not money is important, but knowledge < now i sound like Yoda :-DD
Just my 2 cents :D
Kind regarts,
Blackdog
Suppose I make a bunch of homebrew references and compare them against each other. If they drift apart over time I have a problem, they are not very predictable and I can't do much with them. But if they all stick together, then either they are very stable, or they are all drifting at similar rates. Either outcome is good. If they are all drifting at similar rates, that rate is predictable and can be compensated. Making something predictable at low cost is good in terms of a transfer standard, especially if the predictability survives power down during shipping. Just because there are whizz-bang industry devices doesn't mean there is no room for the amateur to make a contribution.
In the early history of science, most research was done by wealthy people of independent means. It's not all about making a profit. The search for knowledge is a worthy goal in itself.
If I make a device that can hold a stable voltage to 1ppm or less for 7 days an output 1mv to 100v, that had great value as a transfer standard for hobbyists. That could be nulled to a 732B and sent around anywhere in the world. You could use it to calibrate your hobbyist lab meters. That has business potential.
As for gathering data on monolithic ICs, that can actually prove to be useful as most IC manufacturers only gather initial data on 100 chips over 1000 hours. That's what goes into the datasheet. If we've got people gathering data on batches of chips for 10,000 hours, that's producing real data that could be very useful to others. That's science. (http://img.timb.us/emoticon/science.gif)
At any rate, no one is trying to replicate the 732B. I think the goal is to make a standard good enough to validate and maybe even calibrate up to 6.5 digit meters.
Sent from my Smartphone
A poor man can't afford 2 3458A's + a few 732B's......
show me how you can amortize the cost of equipment + resources into a sub $100 MSRP, and come out ahead? You can't....
If you are doing this for purely academic purposes....then you are once again not a poor man, because you have no financial gain...and only spend resources.....so again not an excercise for a poor man.
those DMM's and baseline ref aren't "cheap"
I mean I can make my meter show a number also....what does it prove? Where is the datalog...what were the conditions etc etc etc.....
If no datalog at appropriate intervals....did someone actually watch the meter for 7 days or two whole weeks? can they prove it?
A poor man can't afford 2 3458A's + a few 732B's......
show me how you can amortize the cost of equipment + resources into a sub $100 MSRP, and come out ahead? You can't....
If you are doing this for purely academic purposes....then you are once again not a poor man, because you have no financial gain...and only spend resources.....so again not an excercise for a poor man.
As often the case a collection of random non-sequitur, out of context misquotes, and generally lame nonsense.
I mean I can make my meter show a number also....what does it prove? Where is the datalog...what were the conditions etc etc etc.....
If no datalog at appropriate intervals....did someone actually watch the meter for 7 days or two whole weeks? can they prove it?
The majority of commercial standards can prove their claims.....if they can't they would have never received a NIST cal cert.....that's the point of the traceable reference....anything else is just pissing in the wind and hoping none blows back on you.....how could one derive a known level of uncertainty across their entire test reference system?
here is a picture.....for the hell of it lets say it's been there "for a week or two" (a week or so? which one is it...a week, or two....?) ROCK SOLID!!!
(http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o282/madgreed/WP_20150215_001.jpg)
A poor man can't afford 2 3458A's + a few 732B's......
show me how you can amortize the cost of equipment + resources into a sub $100 MSRP, and come out ahead? You can't....
If you are doing this for purely academic purposes....then you are once again not a poor man, because you have no financial gain...and only spend resources.....so again not an excercise for a poor man.
As often the case a collection of random non-sequitur, out of context misquotes, and generally lame nonsense. To assume academic efforts are not possible on a budget is absurd. Equally absurd to assume everybody must have multiple 8 1/2 digit lab meters and at least a hundred grand invested in a wall full of similar gear. Estimated at least 9 out of 10 of these forum users are not involved with mars rover or developing heart and lung machine.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hobby (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hobby)
And to assume a poor man cannot pursue academic research for eventual profit just as senseless.those DMM's and baseline ref aren't "cheap"
Actually they can be.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/AD584KH-4-Channel-2-5v-7-5v-5v-10v-High-Precision-Voltage-Reference-Module-Simpl-/181219600361?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a3187a7e9 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/AD584KH-4-Channel-2-5v-7-5v-5v-10v-High-Precision-Voltage-Reference-Module-Simpl-/181219600361?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a3187a7e9)
$8 but very stable and comes with calibration data from 6 1/2 digit lab meter so an excellent transfer standard for most setups.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/161247229877?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.com/itm/161247229877?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)
5 bucks on Ali. 0.1mv resolution. More than adequate for 99% of hobby AND professional voltage measurement.I mean I can make my meter show a number also....what does it prove? Where is the datalog...what were the conditions etc etc etc.....
If no datalog at appropriate intervals....did someone actually watch the meter for 7 days or two whole weeks? can they prove it?
Again you don't have to spend more than a new car to arrange data collection. A one or two dollar MCU perfectly able to not only convert meter readings to serial for PC logging but actually store weeks or months internally depending on sample rate.
Man! This is like reading a good book and just when I thought it couldn't get any better, it does.
As to Awesom14 building his circuit on perf board or whatever , what is wrong with that. As to Jim Williams(a hero to some on here),
I bet he never laid out any of his circuits for production. If Awesome14 put his circuit on a pretty PCB it might not work.
I also knew my boy Tim couldn't go four posts without incurring the Wrath of God.
Al
I can not believe you would say that. You seem to be a smart person and sometimes you are going off in a wrong tangent.
yet NOT ONE PIECE of relevant data is presented.... :palm:
I will leave you folks to it though....you obviously get some delight in admiring each-others nonsense claims...sooner or later though (after you piss away your time and resources) you will have a very rude awakening that the datasheets were right after all....such a pity to see all the time wasted
I can not believe you would say that. You seem to be a smart person and sometimes you are going off in a wrong tangent.
yet NOT ONE PIECE of relevant data is presented.... :palm:
I will leave you folks to it though....you obviously get some delight in admiring each-others nonsense claims...sooner or later though (after you piss away your time and resources) you will have a very rude awakening that the datasheets were right after all....such a pity to see all the time wasted
As I have said before, if I need lab grade calibration and verification and transfer, I go to my official calibration lab here in my town and they use their Fluke 732B and an Agilent 3458A and a Fluke 8508A.
But for some purpose I do need 5.000 V as a reference in some projects and some of these good quality "hobby" references are doing their work perfectly.
And if I take 3 different meters in my lab, a 34401A (calibrated) a 34461A (calibrated) and a 34410A (calibrated) and all of them show 5.0000xV with the x floating 1 digit up or 1 digit down, and the difference between the meters is 1 or 2 digits off in the last place what is wrong with that?
It has fulfilled my requirements and expectations and I am getting a job done.
Well, that's the spec of the 2ppm reference swamped (by floating 1 digit noise) that you are trying to measure.
I think I would struggle to verify the performance of these hobby standards, with either my trusty fluke 8508A or my dusty hp 3458A. The techniques used, other sources of error and uncertainty guard banding makes this a very error prone 'experiment'. Forget trying to do it on a crappy 6.5 digit whatever.
Well, that's the spec of the 2ppm reference swamped (by floating 1 digit noise) that you are trying to measure.
I think I would struggle to verify the performance of these hobby standards, with either my trusty fluke 8508A or my dusty hp 3458A. The techniques used, other sources of error and uncertainty guard banding makes this a very error prone 'experiment'. Forget trying to do it on a crappy 6.5 digit whatever.
Oh, and TunerSandwich, you state 6.5 digit meters can't verify 1ppm at 10V? I don't know what sort of shitty meter you've got, but mine certainly goes down to 10uV at 10V (10.0000X).IMHO what you are forgetting is long term stability. I have been looking at voltages references myself for an upcoming project. I think that the best you can expect is a long term stability of 20ppm per year with a very well designed and thermally controlled production circuit. Power cycles, noise, thermal EMF, mechanical stress all add to long term INstability. A reference may be accurate to 1ppm today but how about next month and next year?
I think that the best you can expect is a long term stability of 20ppm per year with a very well design and thermally controlled production circuit.
Well, that's the spec of the 2ppm reference swamped (by floating 1 digit noise) that you are trying to measure.
I think I would struggle to verify the performance of these hobby standards, with either my trusty fluke 8508A or my dusty hp 3458A. The techniques used, other sources of error and uncertainty guard banding makes this a very error prone 'experiment'. Forget trying to do it on a crappy 6.5 digit whatever.
So, you consider a 34401A, a 34461A and a 34410A crappy 6.5 digit whatever meter?
Really?
If I am looking for 5.5 digit precision and my 34461A shows 5.00002 V and over several thousand measurements the last digit will not even move and it is confirmed by a 34401A and a 34410A, how is that not verified?
34401A specs *after 1 hr warmup
(http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o282/madgreed/34401A.jpg)
5V is in the 10V range and therefore within 24hrs the relative accuracy is 15ppm plus 2ppm.
Have you made an uncertainty budget ?
(http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o282/madgreed/34401A.jpg)
5V is in the 10V range and therefore within 24hrs the relative accuracy is 15ppm plus 2ppm.
Have you made an uncertainty budget ?
As TunerSandwich said, a single picture proves nothing in any terms. Temper Coef? Drift over time? etc etc
5V is in the 10V range and therefore within 24hrs the relative accuracy is 15ppm plus 2ppm.
Have you made an uncertainty budget ?
Do I really need to worry about 15ppm + 2ppm, when I require only 5.0000V on a 6 1/2 digit multimeter?
Here is my setup:
(http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o282/madgreed/34401A.jpg)
5V is in the 10V range and therefore within 24hrs the relative accuracy is 15ppm plus 2ppm.
Have you made an uncertainty budget ?
Your calculation is not correct, either!
uncertainty of 5V on 10V range:
15ppm of reading (5V) => 75µV
plus 4 ppm of range (10V) => plus 40µV
=> 115µV / 5V = 23ppm
To be exact, you also have to add the A/D non linearity, which is 2ppm of range => 20µV => gives additionally 4ppm, for a Grand Total of 27ppm.
And then also some ppm for the temperature coefficient, which I'd like to omit now, because it's already included, if you stay within +/- 1°C.
On a 6 1/2 digit DMM, 27 ppm of 5V or 135µV uncertainty on 10V range are visible on the last two digits.
Frank
Yes, thank you for the correction.
I am also pleased to see there is someone who has read the rest of the specifications i.e non-linearity and temp effect. I call this 'the small print' it's a phrase used in the UK regarding small print of adverts stating terms and conditions etc etc.
I am also pleased to see there is someone who has read the rest of the specifications i.e non-linearity and temp effect.
Doing 20ppm/year will be very challenging IMHO.
Since this thread went off rails long ago, here are my 5c.QuoteDoing 20ppm/year will be very challenging IMHO.
SNIP ............
given you already have stable DMM to make sure of drift coming from reference, not a measurement tool.
............... SNIP
Those suggestions are so laughable it's hardly worth the time to respond.....if you can't do the simple math to reach a conclusion that you won't be able to even verify these "cheap standards"....then best of luck....
It's very hard to take anything you say seriously
Not one of these devices comes with ANY form of trustworthy traceability.....it's just Awesome14 all over again.....I suspect something about conspiracy and angels will come out next....good grief....
no 6 1/2 digit "lab meter" is going to verify stability to PPM range. The least significant digit is not trustworthy and @ 10V your least significant digit is 1ppm....
and YOUR suggestion for measuring vREF is this....? :-DD why even bother speculating about "ppm stability".....there is simply ZERO data.... :--
Fluke adds some proprietary temperature compensation to the reference circuitry, and this DMM's performance over reasonable temperature swings is very good, so that rumor might be true.
..................................
..................................
As far as Awesome14 I don't feel too bad being compared there. Even with all the vampire/assassination stuff he still seemed to have one of the more balanced attitudes. Too bad he was banned from the site.
Your calculation is not correct, either!
uncertainty of 5V on 10V range:
15ppm of reading (5V) => 75µV
plus 4 ppm of range (10V) => plus 40µV
=> 115µV / 5V = 23ppm
To be exact, you also have to add the A/D non linearity, which is 2ppm of range => 20µV => gives additionally 4ppm, for a Grand Total of 27ppm.
And then also some ppm for the temperature coefficient, which I'd like to omit now, because it's already included, if you stay within +/- 1°C.
On a 6 1/2 digit DMM, 27 ppm of 5V or 135µV uncertainty on 10V range are visible on the last two digits: 4.99987 .. 5.00014 V.
That's not so good, more a 4 4/5 digit result, than a 5 1/2 digit one.
It's mainly caused by the mediocre stability specification of the LM399H reference plus the assorted amplifier-resistors.
Frank
Your calculation is not correct, either!
uncertainty of 5V on 10V range:
15ppm of reading (5V) => 75µV
plus 4 ppm of range (10V) => plus 40µV
=> 115µV / 5V = 23ppm
To be exact, you also have to add the A/D non linearity, which is 2ppm of range => 20µV => gives additionally 4ppm, for a Grand Total of 27ppm.
And then also some ppm for the temperature coefficient, which I'd like to omit now, because it's already included, if you stay within +/- 1°C.
On a 6 1/2 digit DMM, 27 ppm of 5V or 135µV uncertainty on 10V range are visible on the last two digits: 4.99987 .. 5.00014 V.
That's not so good, more a 4 4/5 digit result, than a 5 1/2 digit one.
It's mainly caused by the mediocre stability specification of the LM399H reference plus the assorted amplifier-resistors.
Frank
Just being a bit picky, but right answer, wrong reason according to my version of the datasheet:
'A-D Linearity: 0.0002% of reading + 0.0001% of range' - so 2ppm * 5Vrdg + 1ppm * 10Vrange = 20uV.
Splin
Fluke adds some proprietary temperature compensation to the reference circuitry, and this DMM's performance over reasonable temperature swings is very good, so that rumor might be true.
What? Secret method for squeezing extreme performance out of otherwise mundane reference chip? Where did I hear that bef... oh yeah!
Ha ha, very funny...
Truth be told though, the LM399 [and it's TempCo tested brother the LM399A] is actually a *VERY* good reference--- far better than what the data sheet says. And with burn-in and testing/selection, only accepting parts in the lower 10th percentile, well, it can be *exceptionally* good. The data-sheet spec for an LM399A is 0.3ppm/K [heated of course], and Bob Dobkin told me that the *average* part is going to be more like 0.1ppm/K [they have to state a higher value on the spec sheet for the exceptions]. Now, if you are testing them yourself for TempCo, and destroying 90% of the parts, then it's a good bet that you will end up with a reference that is far better than the "average" 0.1ppm/K. With a ONE YEAR burn-in at 150C, you are artificially aging the references about 64 years-- so, then you get on the "linear" portion of the logarithmic curve where the drift is 1ppm/year to 2ppm/year. A single LM399A would kick *any* unheated reference's ass...
There is speculation that the drift in a subsurface Zener is due to the micro-cracks and micro-strain in the silicon die after separation from the wafer. Supposedly, these crystalline imperfections show up as increased LF-noise [DC to 10Hz]. So, if the rumor is true, if you select for very low LF-noise, it's a good bet that you will end up with a reference that is more stable over time. If this is true, then I would imagine that it is being kept as a closely guarded "trade secret" by interested parties. Note that this has nothing to do with the on-chip intentional and unintentional resistors that will account for 99% of the drift, and the burn-in [and subsequent temperature cycling between -55C and +150C] should take care of most of that. That leaves only the die-attach, which for these chips will most likely be high temperature epoxy that is filled with "micro-balloons". As the die [heater] is turned on and off, the strain will cause some of these balloons to "pop", and you will see about a 1-ppm jump in the output voltage temporarily. So, after the burn-in and temp-cycles, the reference heater should be turned on and then off [1-minute on, 1 minute off] for 90 days, but in a cold environment [like a freezer]. This will "exercise" the die attach, and any micro-voids or "ready to pop" micro balloons will have already done whatever it is that they are going to do, and these temporary 1-ppm jumps in voltage will be gone.
So, if you own an older "big name" DMM that you are junking, at least pull the LM399 out of it-- as that reference is likely to be very special indeed.
-Ken
Did Bob say how long of a warm up the LM399 needs to stabilize? I notice in the datasheet there's an app circuit for a "portable calibrator" where it's only on as long as you hold down the push button. This would tell me it is stable within a few seconds.
I have about 20 pieces at hand of the LM399, what do you wanna know?
Hi JohnnyBerg, :-)
The time depends on the thermal mass, the small ones about 2 minutes and the big one's 15 minutes to 1 Houre depending on the temperature difference.
Tomorrow i wil boot up two LM399 fore you en measure until it is stable.
Kind regarts,
Blackdog
It works well. Try doing better than that on a proto board. You are attempting to do me intentional harm. Shame on you! Why are you doing that? I have done nothing wrong. I manufacture a superb product. If you are one to judge only by appearances, you can't see the truth! And if you're so concerned with doing me harm, I hold you captive, because you really can't harm me. The product performs superbly when used according to even the most basic common sense.
It works well. Try doing better than that on a proto board. You are attempting to do me intentional harm. Shame on you! Why are you doing that? I have done nothing wrong. I manufacture a superb product. If you are one to judge only by appearances, you can't see the truth! And if you're so concerned with doing me harm, I hold you captive, because you really can't harm me. The product performs superbly when used according to even the most basic common sense.
You can get reasonable results on prototype board.
(http://sdgelectronics.co.uk/images/eev/dacPrototype.jpg)
It looked like popcorn noise, but the noise pulses lasted too long.
Then it got time to properly shield the LM399 ICs and use a good quality coax cable to connect the LM399 to the DMM.
It looked like popcorn noise, but the noise pulses lasted too long.
Then it got time to properly shield the LM399 ICs and use a good quality coax cable to connect the LM399 to the DMM.
Interesting, and extremely relevant. Thanks for posting, I will remember this. If I ever get into ppm and sub-ppm requirements, I will shield my references and use coax to bring it to a meter in the future.
What is all that circuitry on the right?
Yes I think I need to purchase some BNC to 4mm adaptors.
BNC is among the best ones for low thermal EMF but I think you'll need gold plated banana plugs:
Yes I think I need to purchase some BNC to 4mm adaptors.
BNC is not a good connector for DC low EMF
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/help-wanted-low-and-high-ohm-measuremet/msg173641/#msg173641 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/help-wanted-low-and-high-ohm-measuremet/msg173641/#msg173641)
I posted a 40-hour trend plot to the item description. The device was in the early stages when I released it. I just burned in a batch for 35 days, tuned the temperature-compensation circuitry, calibrated them, and shipped them out. Everyone who tried one liked it. So, there never has been any data beyond about one month. I'm selling them so fast I don't have test units.Let's just stick with professional opinions and solid research work.Also where is the "solid research work"......please let's see it good sir :scared:
What you do not understand you find humorous, or you revile it.My standard is the only standard to successfully employ tunable, passive tempco employing a heat-equalization pipe. Why didn't you think of that?
errrmahgerd !! a "passive tempco heat-equalization pipe" !!!!
You are most certainly right sir....I would never think of such a ludicrous thing.....I bow and am humbled by such a device.... :palm:
"Tuning" the tempco ? :-DD Where do you come up with this shit..... :palm:
BTW I am very familiar with passive heatpipe technologyYour are undoubtedly referring to passive refrigeration, which is one application of a heat pipe, and which uses the familiar and cylindrical form of a pipe.
....but explain how a passive heat pipe, "tunes" the "tempco" in a "sealed" enclosure ;) Doesn't that TDP have to escape the case somehow? Or does it fly into the "quantum vacuum"? I don't see any heatpipes in the teardown, nor do I see an external path for the heatpipe to transfer thermal energy to a heat exchanger....nor do I see a fan to further remove that energy from the external heat exchanger.....furthermore....why would you want to REMOVE heat?As I implied above, you hold a parochial view of the term heat-pipe. I'm using a more theoretical-thermodynamic sense of heat pipeing, without the passive refrigeration. I'm just pumping heat as a physical circuit inside a closed system, as a distribution method. Don't confuse my use of the word, "circuit" with the more narrow view of electronic circuit. There are also heat circuits used mainly in chemical engineering. I've simply applied the concept for use in my standard.
Does the circuit somehow generate enough heat that it will melt the plastic enclosure? You are familiar with the concept of "ovenizing" these device right?Ovenizing requires power; power requirements that precludes the use of small, inexpensive batteries for input power.
Heat pipes are designed to transfer heat form one place to another.....usually from a source of heat, to a heat exchanger....I.E. from a let's say a microprocessor to a thermally bonded "pad"....through the heatpipe itself, to a heat exchanger...which is located a distance form the heat source....and usually to a heatsink, with some form of active cooling solution.....I.E. from cpu to external heat exchanger....with some form of active cooling....the purpose is to move heat OUT of the case.....In the most parochial view, yes, what you say is a heatpipe. But in an interdisciplinary sense a heatpipe does not necessarily have a cylindrical shape, nor is it even necessarily hollow. Sometimes it is desirable to transfer heat from one part of a closed system to another, and this is no less the job of a heat pipe than passive refrigeration.
Another example would be a sodium filled valve-stem.....which is designed to (once again) REMOVE heat from a cylinder head valve seat....
I am a bit puzzled by how a "passive" heat pipe helps stabilize a monolithic voltage ref IC.....usually we want to pump heat INTO them....have you figured out a way to "make heat" passively? That is simply astounding.....I would like to know more. You and the "quantum vacuum" guy must be good friends.....
BTW is this your "heatpipe"? Because that is simply a piece of foil....and it appears you are trying to move heat between some kind of resistor (or diode...I can't tell because it appears you have slathered everything in some type of non thermal adhesive) and the top of the IC package.....sorry but that is NOT a heat pipe....a heatpipe is a hollow (vapor cavity), tubular (sometime oval or "flat" but hollow non the less) device, usually filled with a type of "wick"....
You do also realize you could have done this same thing, by designing a proper PCB, with a common thermal layer...and a REF IC that is in a "can" (TO package), flipped into the "dead bug" configuration.....although I don't really see the point of either....you have no controlled heat source....unless your "heatpipe" is once again aligned with the "quantum vacuum"....Rather than being freed by your knowledge, you are enslaved by it. If you knew who you are insulting, you would be aghast at yourself. But you assume anything you do not understand is worthy of ridicule, contempt, or is irrelevant.
still feel like playing? :bullshit:
That's exactly what is going to happen. Due to no part of mine in it, but you earned it. No one is claiming miracles or magic regarding the D-105 DC. The members of this board appear as utter fools because of their presumption and arrogance, something they apparently cannot hide even if they try. Nor can they accept the truth even when it is known. No, they insist on hammering away at the less fortunate, the weak and disabled.
Wait, i thought you said you were mentally superior to all of us, rich beyond the need for financial gain and knew how to bend the laws of nature.....
now you say you are less fortunate, weak and disabled.....
I will most certainly agree with you on the disabled part....you know that you can get medication that might help you with that though? Maybe your "brilliant cardiologist friend" can help get you that Rx ? Although I don't think they allow physicians to write scripts posthumously :clap:
Awesome14, temperature compensated references have been around for a long time. There's even an LT app note showing a schematic for one (Jim Williams AN47 maybe).
Speaking of Jim Williams, he's a true genius and someone I truly admire. The world lost a brilliant mind the day he died.
The fact that you won't show us what's so "obvious" that we missed is akin to a kid on the playground going "I've got something you don't, nanana boo boo!"
It leads me to believe that you're just blowing smoke.
Also, show me exactly what TunerSandwich edited in his quote.
Real scientists and engineers don't act the way you do. God, I can't imagine the way you'd react at having a paper or something peer reviewed. You'd flip the fuck out and smite them all with God's name.
You're either a troll or insane.
Sent from my Smartphone
...
[color=”red”]It does NOT mean: I've evaluated all possibilities....[/color]
[color=”red”]It does NOT mean: I've evaluated all possibilities, and I've discovered the device is controlled by magic! [/color]
...
I have chosen to protect my work using trade-secret rather than patent. Therefore, as I said before, I'm not going to reveal what protects my work, no matter how many times the members call it worthless. Because I know there is nothing like it for the price.
You fucking dumbass, he didn't edit your post, he quoted the first paragraph in a wall of text and truncated it for brevity. You're friends with God and the most brilliant mind in the world, yet you don't even know what an ellipsis is... (I'd tell you, but it's a trade secret.)
By the way, I'm 80% done with a PCB based on "your" design. I'll be selling them on eBay for $50. So you're right, there will be nothing like it for the price. Because I'll be undercutting you by $100 with a more professional product. Once you go out of business, I'll stop.
I'll be losing money in labor, but I'll more than make up for it in sheer pleasure. It'll be like having an orgasm every time one sells.
Sent from my Tablet
Awesome14; seriously, no matter the performance claims, you can't sell this stuff without seriously upgrading the build quality.
Others; I'd say, leave the poor guy alone. He obviously has wiring problems way beyond the technical stuff.
my 2c
They saw but did not understand. Therefore, they ridiculed what made no sense to them.I don't see any heatpipes in the teardown
Maybe he thinks all the plated holes in the perf board are heat pipes. After-all, they're metallic and kind of pipe shaped ;D
Your malice toward the innocent belies your inner motivations. You cannot rob me of my accomplishments. You cannot prove me wrong. You're inert; completely devoid of influence over me. Yet, you are my slave, because you hold me in contempt. I control you. My very existence controls the way you think and feel. I've revealed for all to see who you really are. You're seething! You seek to destroy. But you only destroy yourself. It's pathetic!I don't see any heatpipes in the teardown
Maybe he thinks all the plated holes in the perf board are heat pipes. After-all, they're metallic and kind of pipe shaped ;D
If you look at the pictures....and try to decipher Awesome14's comment....this is what I believe he is saying....
He has glued a piece of copper foil, between a diode, and the ref IC case....he is calling that a "heatpipe". Ok it's not. I think he is saying that he is cooking that poor little diode, and expecting that a thin piece of copper foil is somehow transferring enough thermal energy from the poor little diode (which is his "heater") to "stabilize" the REF IC. The efficiency of heat transfer across that piece of foil is nil. Also the diode is right next to a shit bottom of the barrel trimmer....which hasn't even had the wiper screw glued in place. So in essence he is creating more of a problem than solving one. The majority of heat (which is hardly any) is not traveling across the copper foil to the REF innards....it's just traveling, via convection, into the case of the trimmer.
Ok fine...even then I doubt this has any significant impact on anything in this circuit. If his theory is to heat the case of the REF then why not just take some nichrome wire...zig zag it across the top of the REF IC case....bond it thermally and run some current through it? That would be far more efficient than his method....and still that isn't the proper way to ovenize this package.
This all could be avoided...by simply designing a proper PCB....with a thermal layer...bonded to a TO (can) REF IC, in the dead bug config....bond the case of the TO package to the thermal layer with some thermal "grease"....and then bond a proper controlled heater to the thermal layer....just like everyone else does....
Instead he claims this is somehow innovative, and we are all too stupid too see it....I am sorry but I am all for helping people, but not when they act like some elitist and call everyone here inferior....ESPECIALLY when they have ZERO basis in their claims...NO data to prove anything and start talking about being handed circuit designs from God himself....throw in vampires, angles, and whatever other bullshit is flying out of this guys mouth, and I just don't feel like being nice anymore....
I said back on page one, that the REF102C is in fact an excellent monolithic ref IC.....I have worked with them many times, and if you hand select (bin) the IC, you can easily get better than 2ppm per year stability....out of the plastic package. No big deal there.
What I am amazed at is that DESPITE the poor layout and construction of Awesome14's "reference" the Ti REF102C is getting anywhere near 2ppm stability (+/- so 4ppm really) for even a day or two....I still see zero data showing anything about stability over 30, 90, 180, 256,etc etc etc days....
If anything I say this whole scenario just shows how good the REF102C can be....even when someone who has no idea what they are doing slaps one together with perfboard....shit components and construction techniques....
Again I have used the REF102C in a proper ovenized enclosure design...with proper supporting components, and it's a nice little IC, for a reasonable cost.....easy to implement etc etc etc....and IF you hand select the IC you CAN get better than 1.5ppm stability over a year or more....fine, no big deal...that is not innovative, astounding or anything other than "decent".....
The claims of "heatpipes" and "revolutionary design"....and then insulting us all on the basis that since we don't agree, we are somehow mentally inferior and closed minded...is simply going past the point where I feel like lending any advice or being a nice guy....
So again the only conclusion here, is that DESPITE Awesome14's total ignorance and terrible mental disabilities, the REF102C is a half way decent REF IC....I am mainly still here reading and commenting, because I find this entire thread utterly hilarious, on the basis of the divine claims, breaking the laws of physics claims, assassination conspiracy etc etc etc....it's pure comedy at this point....nothing anyone says here is actually going to help Awesome14, he is far beyond that....
To top it off Awesome14 is SELLING these on eBAY....with bogus descriptions....no pictures of internals....and for a price that doesn't justify anything he has done. Anyone here or there could easily order the same IC from Mouser or Digikey or wherever, for not much money...slap it on a perfboard...with half way decent components....throw it in a hammond enclosure and probably have BETTER results, for under $50.
So basically this is an eBAY scam, and constitutes fraud....and that is simply shameful....there is nothing innovative or "magical" about the "product"....it's built on nothing more than an application schematic handed down from Burr-Brown to Ti and then from Ti to Awesome14....and he didn't even implement it properly....why would anyone want to help this guy? He is scum...
And if you take a good look in this thread, you will see the firsts attacks come from awesome14.Utterly nonsensical and contrived twisting of my words
I agree, in the start, it was looking good, with good points on how to do, and how to evaluate this kind of circuits. But when the people from this forum started to try to get real tests, then the maker came and start to try make everyone to think the same way he does.
Using non-scientific things to explain the circuit, blah blah...
Then, after he show some attacks to whom disagree from him, the things come more comedy... From some pages there is nothing but funny posts, from one side or another.
No big deal. There is somethings that we don't really say to someone, but if he is concerned about this, stop to say something to us (like all that crap about how he get the circuit from heavens, or something about vampires, about the cardiologist who know so much of electronics, about death attempts, how all this are connected to some voltage reference circuit?)
More than a scam, it is a troll.
The IC is +- 5mVDC. The reason my reference works so well is because of me. If it was the IC, anyone could do what I've done. But the fact is, no one ever has, all things considered, especially the price. I'm selling every piece I can make, 2 months into the future!
The 8-digit meter and the 732A belong to our calibration lab, which is owned by CalibratoryTM, LLC. I personally own a large part of CalibratoryTM, LLC, which also manufactures the voltage reference, D-105 10DC. But no man is an island! We all need other people to accomplish anything.
For the record, there's no LLC registered as Calibratory, or CalibratoryTM in the states of MN or WI. I also checked federal tax records and found nothing. This leads me to believe that The name is up for grabs
Anyhoo, we've beaten the piss out of a dead horse. We saw earlier that it actually performs relatively well and that is really a testament to the IC. Go buy the IC and some parts for $30 and you have a decent ref!
I control you. My very existence controls the way you think and feel. I've revealed for all to see who you really are. You're seething! You seek to destroy. But you only destroy yourself. It's pathetic!
I control you. My very existence controls the way you think and feel. I've revealed for all to see who you really are. You're seething! You seek to destroy. But you only destroy yourself. It's pathetic!
I can't find the ::eats popcorn:: emoticon in the list of smileys. This forum is definitely missing a feature :(
Awesome14, temperature compensated references have been around for a long time. There's even an LT app note showing a schematic for one (Jim Williams AN47 maybe).
Speaking of Jim Williams, he's a true genius and someone I truly admire. The world lost a brilliant mind the day he died.
The fact that you won't show us what's so "obvious" that we missed is akin to a kid on the playground going "I've got something you don't, nanana boo boo!"
It leads me to believe that you're just blowing smoke.
Also, show me exactly what TunerSandwich edited in his quote.
Real scientists and engineers don't act the way you do. God, I can't imagine the way you'd react at having a paper or something peer reviewed. You'd flip the fuck out and smite them all with God's name.
You're either a troll or insane.
Sent from my Smartphone
...
[color=”red”]It does NOT mean: I've evaluated all possibilities....[/color]
[color=”red”]It does NOT mean: I've evaluated all possibilities, and I've discovered the device is controlled by magic! [/color]
...
I have chosen to protect my work using trade-secret rather than patent. Therefore, as I said before, I'm not going to reveal what protects my work, no matter how many times the members call it worthless. Because I know there is nothing like it for the price.
You fucking dumbass, he didn't edit your post, he quoted the first paragraph in a wall of text and truncated it for brevity. You're friends with God and the most brilliant mind in the world, yet you don't even know what an ellipsis is... (I'd tell you, but it's a trade secret.)
By the way, I'm 80% done with a PCB based on "your" design. I'll be selling them on eBay for $50. So you're right, there will be nothing like it for the price. Because I'll be undercutting you by $100 with a more professional product. Once you go out of business, I'll stop.
I'll be losing money in labor, but I'll more than make up for it in sheer pleasure. It'll be like having an orgasm every time one sells.
Sent from my Tablet
It was truncated in a strategic manner. If you knew who it is that you call names, you would lament in bitterness.
I posted a 40-hour trend plot to the item description. The device was in the early stages when I released it. I just burned in a batch for 35 days, tuned the temperature-compensation circuitry, calibrated them, and shipped them out. Everyone who tried one liked it. So, there never has been any data beyond about one month. I'm selling them so fast I don't have test units.Let's just stick with professional opinions and solid research work.Also where is the "solid research work"......please let's see it good sir :scared:
IMHO you have to admit that the build quality leaves much to be desired. Just look at the eval board from Linear for the LTZ1000. It is very hard to prove that the DC-105 offers the quoted performance. Perhaps it is adjusted properly to a certain level of accuracy and it has some temperature compensation (judging from how the copper foil looks it appears the thermal link is 'tuned') but it seems to me that it does not get rid of long term drift and/or thermally induced offset voltages.I'm not lying about anything. It's possible that I'm unfamiliar with certain terminology, or that I invent new terms as the need arises. Why would I resort to lying if my claims are real. There wouldn't be any point. And if I was a scammer, it would be obvious from my feedback on eBay.com. The units are handmade. They're not going to look as tidy as machine-made boards. But the people on this board who are picky about soldering remind me of my second-grade penmanship teacher who paid no attention to content, but only to how pretty the cursive was. She could have been reading Einstein's theory, and even though it revolutionized the world, if the penmanship was marginal, it was worthless! She told me that erasers would grow out of my fingers, because I erased too often.
All of that is OK as long as the seller doesn't start to pull a whole load of BS from his ass. He could have sufficed to say that he doesn't want to disclose the inner workings. Some may accept that and others don't.
He let the flood gates open paulie. At first we were poking fun at the build quality. That is no worse than what Dave does for a living.I don't believe my words warrant incessant abuse of myself or my product. I think you have a real problem. Bullies have a bad habit of getting their faces plastered to the concrete. I wouldn't do that to you, but you deserve it. And not everyone is as nice as I am. Some people are easily offended. If you say to them what you've said about me, it will be the last thing you ever do! I worry about people like you. Hopefully you will learn the easy way.
Then we heard about Angels, mob hits and immortality. He brought it on himself.
Sent from my Smartphone
At this point, for me, it does not matter so much for a couple of reasons.I resent your implications. And, if you require mission-critical accuracy and reliability, it's probably best to spend more than 100USD.
The first is that a voltage standard is a critical piece of equipment that I should be able to rely on as a true reference. It's too much for me to trust a dead bug/perf board constructed device. I feel that it's long term performance would be hard to predict. If I have such critical work that I need standards in-house, it needs to be something that goes beyond a science fair experiment. The functionality should not be mysterious.
The second would be that such a bizarre rubbish of conversation subtracts any confidence at all even if I was willing to overlook the construction.
I don't know much about design of super-precise voltage standards and the unique testing required to verify the performance. I do know that when the end result must be VERY EXACT, everything that goes into it must be EXACT. Obviously that is not really the case here. Is it unique and special? yes, but not in a good way. If the box and the seller are VERY difficult to believe, why would I use this device as a REFERENCE STANDARD?
As for the community project idea, I will pitch in CNC machined cases. They can have a lot of thermal mass making them easy to temp control. If temp temp and humidity are really factors to consider, I can easily make a nitrogen purged case that can be temp controlled to something above typical ambient so that external temp/humidy will not have a chance to impact the circuit. Not sure if that will help, but I am hearing a lot about various tempco challenges and humidity. It seems that isolating a good circuit in a small box from almost all outside influences should off the best chance of making something with god like specs.
This specification-police business is really out of hand. If you can prove me wrong, do it. But don't refute my claims based on parochial viewpoints that are mere sliver of a larger reality. If you don't understand something, that doesn't indicate it isn't true.And if you take a good look in this thread, you will see the firsts attacks come from awesome14.
I agree, in the start, it was looking good, with good points on how to do, and how to evaluate this kind of circuits. But when the people from this forum started to try to get real tests, then the maker came and start to try make everyone to think the same way he does.
Using non-scientific things to explain the circuit, blah blah...
Then, after he show some attacks to whom disagree from him, the things come more comedy... From some pages there is nothing but funny posts, from one side or another.
No big deal. There is somethings that we don't really say to someone, but if he is concerned about this, stop to say something to us (like all that crap about how he get the circuit from heavens, or something about vampires, about the cardiologist who know so much of electronics, about death attempts, how all this are connected to some voltage reference circuit?)
More than a scam, it is a troll.
Show me one place where I did anything but tell the truth. I didn't attack anyone.
you have GOT to be kidding.....go back and read your own posts.....UN-freaking-believable
We can start with claims about your miraculous "heatpipe" technology.....how about claims of somehow bending the laws of physics, to improve Ti's technology? Face it, the ref you are selling simply proves the quality of Ti's REF102C package...DESPITE your best efforts to corrupt it's implementation.....
You have been your own worst critic and enemy here.....DESPITE many of us offering suggestions and constructive criticisms....
I have a proposal....show me the testing data, that proves your little piece of copper foil, bonded to a weak heat source, and then bonded to the CASE of the REF IC, does ANYTHING AT ALL to improve performance.....seriously ONE piece of data and I will take you seriously.
as far as I can see, you have done nothing other than meet Ti's own claims of potential stability in their IC package....nothing more and certainly less, in some cases....in case you missed the Ti lab report on this IC, here it is again.....
Show me ONE SINGLE piece of data that backs up your claims of "bettering" Ti's ref IC....if you simply made a mistake, because you don't understand what you are doing....then that is fine, admit it....be humble and some of us here might be inclined to help you.....but you need to stop posting misleading claims on your ebay listing, and stop with all of this "miraculous" technology inventions of your....they don't exist....nothing here, to me, is magic, or even "seems like magic".....in fact it follows Ti's own data sheet to the T....
(http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o282/madgreed/ti3.jpg)
P.S. the chart above is the M package version of the REF102C....which is the TO (can) style package.....Ti claims that the plastic package achieves the EXACT SAME stability figures AFTER 168 hours stabilization time.....which I whole heatedly believe....and can attest to, through my own experiences with the REF102C (non M) package.....nothing miraculous here.....just an honest manufacturer, who makes a device with a degree or predictability, for a reasonable cost.....I.E. good science, good marketing, from a reputable company....and that is PAR for the course...
Personally, I know nothing. That leaves my mind open to all Truth. Inspiring from God doesn't give a device divine attributes. It just saves time. The resulting device is still governed by the laws God placed over the physical reality.
Your malice toward the innocent belies your inner motivations. You cannot rob me of my accomplishments. You cannot prove me wrong. You're inert; completely devoid of influence over me. Yet, you are my slave, because you hold me in contempt. I control you. My very existence controls the way you think and feel. I've revealed for all to see who you really are. You're seething! You seek to destroy. But you only destroy yourself. It's pathetic!
I'm not lying about anything. It's possible that I'm unfamiliar with certain terminology, or that I invent new terms as the need arises.
I or that I invent new terms as the need arises.
On a serious note: at some point this thread touched some very interesting topics on the design and characterisation of voltage references. It's a pity that went away again.
TBH, if you don't know the accepted terminology for something, then you must invent your own word for it. A "thing" exists just the same, whatever name it is given by different people. Established terminology exists to permit efficient communication. Thus I can say "square" rather than "planar four-sided shape with all sides equal and all angles equal". A square remains a square, whether or not I know the proper name for it.
Yeah, but why not stick to proper terminology instead of making up something. If you don't know the terminology then educate yourself so you do. It does not instill trust and faith in a product or seller that does not understand the proper terminology. I can see inventing terminology if you have created something that has no proper way to describe it, but Awsome14 is not doing anything that is different which needs to have new terminology made up.
IMHO you have to admit that the build quality leaves much to be desired. Just look at the eval board from Linear for the LTZ1000. It is very hard to prove that the DC-105 offers the quoted performance. Perhaps it is adjusted properly to a certain level of accuracy and it has some temperature compensation (judging from how the copper foil looks it appears the thermal link is 'tuned') but it seems to me that it does not get rid of long term drift and/or thermally induced offset voltages.But the people on this board who are picky about soldering remind me of my second-grade penmanship teacher who paid no attention to content, but only to how pretty the cursive was. She could have been reading Einstein's theory, and even though it revolutionized the world, if the penmanship was marginal, it was worthless!/ She told me that erasers would grow out of my fingers, because I erased too often.
All of that is OK as long as the seller doesn't start to pull a whole load of BS from his ass. He could have sufficed to say that he doesn't want to disclose the inner workings. Some may accept that and others don't.
That's called smallmindednes...
Flat conductors build up capacitance that can be problematic. But I know one thing: problems increase exponentially when people fix things that aren't broken.
I also am beginning to think that he actually believes what he is saying.
Naaaahhh... much more fun hijacking the one for HIS product and continue letting HIM deal exclusively with personal attacks and avoiding some simple realities regarding actual performance of D105.
Naaaahhh... much more fun hijacking the one for HIS product and continue letting HIM deal exclusively with personal attacks and avoiding some simple realities regarding actual performance of D105.
Fixed that for you.
Sent from my Smartphone
Naaaahhh... much more fun hijacking the one for HIS product and continue letting HIM deal exclusively with personal attacks and avoiding some simple realities regarding actual performance of D105.
Fixed that for you.
Sent from my Smartphone
Well I feel in good company now being grossly misquoted. Maybe meant as a joke but on the internet it's considered bad form. REALLY bad form and indication of the level of character and type of behavior we are dealing with.
You've been on the Internet this long and you've never seen someone change quoted text
You've been on the Internet this long and you've never seen someone change quoted text
I didn't say I never saw it before. In fact thought I implied the opposite. Everybody has their own idea of ethics but separate from that there is a well defined standard for proper behavior. It's one thing to make up a quote without attribution but in this case tacky to leave my name on it. What about someone who just jumps in at the end of a thread (very common) and didn't see what was really said?
Some guy like forum personalty dannyf for example who never attributes quotes just so he can "touch them up". Doen to me twice. IMO much more insidious and potentially malicious,
BTW In reviewing I never saw a single example of Eboy initiating a personal attack but counted at least 30 targeting him.
I would love to see technical discussion but don't think there will much forthcoming from this crowd. Basically all units reviewed performed much better than advertised but most here just didn't like the "look" of it and enraged by the sellers reluctance to kow tow.
Somewhat reminiscent of Joseph Priestly. Not only was his house burned down by a mob but his church too. Right to the ground. Ironically he was the discoverer of oxygen in a world of phlogiston believers.
I don't think anyone here sells a standard ATM. Try www.voltagestandard.com (http://www.voltagestandard.com) , they have several models. Well made and make no unreasonable claims. Sadly they don't include any vampires with your purchase, you need Mr. Awesome for that :-DDThanks Ed.
Ed
Sooo.. that means everyone else are also 'goobers' ??. :-//
What definition are you referring to ?.
Sooo.. that means everyone else are also 'goobers' ??. :-//
What definition are you referring to ?.
I was the one who "attacked" him by calling him a goober. It means, "an unsophisticated person; a yokel," to quote OEAD. It's an old term used in the southern US.
Common usage is that of a lighthearted insult. Akin to schmuck perhaps? (Which I just found out originated from the Yiddish word for penis! TMYK)
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The AD587JQ and it's "better" brother the AD587UQ are the only monolithic 10V references that I have been able to find that are still sold in hermetic packages.
I was wondering the same thing. I don't follow that market all that closely, but to the casual observer it seems that there is not that much development going on. Combine that with some parts going EOL, and it seems the amount of options is reducing...The AD587JQ and it's "better" brother the AD587UQ are the only monolithic 10V references that I have been able to find that are still sold in hermetic packages.
So since none of the top brands use that part should we assume production of all lab grade instruments in the world has ceased? Is there any clear data available showing just what the impact is for using plastic dip? By clear I mean understandable to a human being.
Yes there is an advantage to batteries.
RE: batteries...
I currently have the Voltage Standard VREF10-003 and the Awesome14 version. Both are stable enough for my current needs, but I will repeat, I cannot verify if it's any better than 100 ppm. I only have two 5-1/2 digit meters here, so these standards were good enough for my current needs.
Obviously I didn't have a straight face and it did elicit a response from the true 'goober' here.Sooo.. that means everyone else are also 'goobers' ??. :-//
What definition are you referring to ?.
I was the one who "attacked" him by calling him a goober. It means, "an unsophisticated person; a yokel," to quote OEAD. It's an old term used in the southern US.
Common usage is that of a lighthearted insult. Akin to schmuck perhaps? (Which I just found out originated from the Yiddish word for penis! TMYK)
Sent from my Smartphone
Yes I was aware of the connotations, was not sure though if alhoop had a straight face or not when he asked the question :).
I was wondering the same thing. I don't follow that market all that closely, but to the casual observer it seems that there is not that much development going on. Combine that with some parts going EOL, and it seems the amount of options is reducing...The AD587JQ and it's "better" brother the AD587UQ are the only monolithic 10V references that I have been able to find that are still sold in hermetic packages.
So since none of the top brands use that part should we assume production of all lab grade instruments in the world has ceased? Is there any clear data available showing just what the impact is for using plastic dip? By clear I mean understandable to a human being.
As for the plastic DIP, how viable is it to use the PTFE/FEP trick DigilentMinds mention on the entire dip package? As in do something clever with the leads if required, bake it, and heat shrink it. Is that viable, or even useful?
The humidity effect on epoxy [IC packages, board material] is well known. The epoxy absorbs water vapor [humidity] from the air, and "swells". The board dimensional changes affect some parts mounted on the board if they are sensitive to board stress. This can be so high that it actually cracks surface mount resistors and capacitors in the larger packages if they are not designed to absorb this kind of abuse. And so it is with reference IC's and precision [non-chopper] op-amps. When the epoxy package absorbs the water, it changes dimensions and this puts a strain on the IC die, resulting in a shift in output. This is mostly caused by on-chip resistors, that act like strain gauges.
My PTFE/FEP dual-wall heat-shrink trick should work well to stop the water vapor infusion 100%, but it will not stop another thing that happens to reference IC's and precision [non-chopper] op-amps in plastic packages, and that is mechanically caused hysteresis which will shift the output based on previous temperature history.
Timb, can you post a link to that ptc heater you found?
The biggest difference is a "pretty" PCB for the above vs Eboy's perfboard construction which annoys the hell out of most here and also they just don't like his attitude. Mainly a conflict with their religious views.
The biggest difference is a "pretty" PCB for the above vs Eboy's perfboard construction which annoys the hell out of most here and also they just don't like his attitude. Mainly a conflict with their religious views.
Perfboard isn't the problem. It isn't done in a "workmanlike manner." I can understand not being able to design and get a PCB, but geez, he can't tin wires and solder them to the perfbord without several strands all splayed out in different directions. Solder blobs and flux blobs are all over the place, and it looks like he placed the components with a shotgun. When questioned, he claimes that his construction is "superb" and there is a reason for doing as he did it. Sorry, there is no reason to badly tin a wire with strands going in every direction with a solder blob. That ads NOTHING to the design, buy says a lot about his attitude.
honestly, 20 minutes spent fixing the layout, and some care spent while putting it together so it doesn't look like a dog's breakfast would do wonders.
so after reading a very hard to read thread ...
can more than 1 person who is still using his 10v ref give a updated "picture" of/about its stability/drift ? ... (or did he really got banned just because he could not speak tech?)
i am interested to know if it is still a viable unit, since there is no other premade/pre-cal units made or on offer @ this price. or is there a better option @ USD100 ?
I will upload some long term data shortly. I purchased mine about the time this thread started and have been doing some long-term tests.
That argument makes no sense. He's making so much money per hour he can't spend time to lay the components out neatly, nor build it in a workmanlike manner but he can't afford to hire someone to design a PCB, get them made, and even assemble them?
If he's turning down thousands per hour to build these, he's doing it for rewards other than money. One would think these would include wanting to at least make a product that doesn't look like complete crap. He should be smart enough to at least twist the strands together.
I will upload some long term data shortly. I purchased mine about the time this thread started and have been doing some long-term tests.
Why do you think this device can beat the specs in the datasheet?
Why do you think this device can beat the specs in the datasheet?I never said that it could. I am only following through with the tests I stated a while back that I would do. I believe I have mentioned in previous posts that I felt it would not meet the seller's advertised specifications. Instead of speculation and attacks, I am merely trying to prove or disprove to best of my ability the claimed accuracy and stability of a product.
note: In September 2000, Texas Instruments acquired BB. What does that tell us about the IC, that has still the BB logo on it?
Why do you think this device can beat the specs in the datasheet?
(http://i57.tinypic.com/wtgfb.jpg)
See... you guys aren't the only ones that can put words in his mouth. :)
note: In September 2000, Texas Instruments acquired BB. What does that tell us about the IC, that has still the BB logo on it?
Interesting... I can't make it out from the picture but can you find a date code on that IC?
OLD ... and WELL aged ? which could mean ... good?
E14 have them about USD12 each ... hmmmm
I would only rely on what is specified in the datasheet.+100 8)
the datasheet is not even the actual working item
the datasheet is not even the actual working item
Perhaps there is someone out there, with an original Burr Brown datasheet?
In a book, on paper? ;)
inside the TI datasheet, there is a version with 3 outputs into 1 (fig 14) with price of 10 less than USD100 ... now that should make someone a really really good stable reference i bet?
**edit ... its over USD100 for 10 here. but its a diff model
And try reading the posts once in a while. Awesome never made any such statement about thousands per hour. I was sarcastically highlighting how badly he has been misquoted and words simply fabricated.
Adding a thermistor and cheap voltage trim components [i.e. carbon-film resistors, and cheap pots] does not [magically or otherwise] improve the specifications of *ANY* monolithic voltage reference. While you may be able to improve the TC and final voltage initially, these trim settings cannot hold due to the cheap components used. [And there would still be a very small drift if higher performance and higher cost components were used].
Using an epoxy packaged monolithic voltage reference has well known "issues" with temperature excursions and humidity changes. Putting all of this into a plastic box and "sealing" this [with whatever] does not [magically or otherwise] make these "issues" go away. Water vapor is one of the worst things to deal with, and it can infuse through almost all plastics excepting some fluorocarbons. This would include the epoxy used to encapsulate the IC and the plastic material that was used to injection mold the enclosure. These are like "sieves" to water vapor.
Yes, "aged" means: power-on time [for the Zener] and time [at operating temperature] for the internal and external intentional and unintentional [parasitic] resistors. Only *some* of this aging can be accelerated by baking a high temperatures for a long time, and then following that with [progressively smaller] temperature cycles. The rest of the aging is due to the Zener current, and with a monolithic voltage reference this can only be accomplished with a long power-on period [months to years].
So yes, the performance of *ANY* monolithic reference begins with the data sheet, then becomes worse as you add more components to try to "fix" the shortcomings of the reference. If you use cheap components to do this, then expect even a less pleasant outcome. Also, not all voltage reference IC's are them same. Even if they are from the same fabrication wafer-- each reference can have vastly different drift characteristics that no amount of aging can modify. So, out of a given batch of reference IC's, a few of them will have very good drift characteristics and some of them will have much worse drift, while the majority of them will be close to data-sheet specifications.
The AD587JQ and it's "better" brother the AD587UQ are the only monolithic 10V references that I have been able to find that are still sold in hermetic packages.Linear has a few LT1021 flavors in metal can still. The 10V is hard to find in small quantities, but it'd be cheaper to stack two 5V anyway since the 10V is an "M" flavor. If you're willing to stack two, the LT1236 and LTC6655 come in LS8. I've been able to compensate the TC of the 1021 (presumably it would work for the 1236 as well) to nearly zero.
Apparently not banned but more likely just hiding out. And all reviews of his product so far indicate performance somewhat better than advertised. However this has not deterred detractors.
The SVR program was always designed as an inexpensive way to transfer a calibration point. It was never intended to be a FLUKE 732B substitute for under $100.
Each SVR-T board was studied for hours with small temperature variations to determine sensitivity for that particular chip. Relatively high quality IRC trim resistors (not $25 each Vishay resistors) and a relatively high quality Vishay thermistor were used for the correction, which was a small vernier made by the trim circuit (not a 1:1 correlation between trim drift and output voltage change). (The series resistor with the thermistor was standard 1% metal film, as it was a small correction on the trim input, already a small part of the output adjust.)
Burn in was just run time to work out past larger 200 hour change exhibited by many of the series.
Following the correction, each board was tested for 7+ more hours to verify the correction. Comparison was made by Null measurement with a 34410A on a mV scale to the FLUKE 732B. Many sets of data show good short term performance, which was the goal of the transfer program.
Burr Brown ref102 data sheet copy (first few pages only), FYI.the datasheet is not even the actual working item
Perhaps there is someone out there, with an original Burr Brown datasheet?
In a book, on paper? ;)
And as it is a plastic IC, it has attracted some moisture over the years. What will that do with stability??
We all realize [on this thread] that this is not going to be accomplished with cheap parts,
You can't build a voltage reference with cheap components, and expect stellar results.
You talk about reference diodes [or even cheap Zeners], and a resistor, but you are forgetting that this also needs an ultra stable voltage to generate the ultra stable current for the Zener.
So, having a discussion here about "cheap voltage references" is probably a little bit too far off-topic.
Perhaps you can start a "super cheap voltage reference" thread, as this is starting to pollute the quality of the LTZ thread.
Adding a thermistor and cheap voltage trim components [i.e. carbon-film resistors, and cheap pots] does not [magically or otherwise] improve the specifications of *ANY* monolithic voltage reference.
If you use cheap components to do this, then expect even a less pleasant outcome. Also, not all voltage reference IC's are the same.
I was writing about some others that sell on the 'bay', that are using the cheapest junk they can buy,
So, I think it was the "suits" [lacking technical knowledge] that forced this change on us to save money. That's right, greedy "bean counters" did it...
but since tempco has so much influence on accuracy, drift etc .... why not just LM399 it all and "end of story"?
**exploratory simulation into making a ref of some kind
panasonic 10ppm perhaps? this 1 sits @ 0.01% :-+
actually after hearing so much about the "wildness" of variable trimmers ... wouldnt it be better to be without it and just have the output as it is ? or have a very small value trim (like blackdogs version with a 100R?)
putting together the resistor framework is harder then it seems just by depending on what is available from E14 ... phew !
It is disappointing that the SVR program attracted such strong reaction.
but if i dont really trim it, the 2% will not really matter am i right? say if i find a way to also use a smaller trimmer ? by buffering the trimmers "largeness" with fixed 5ppm stuff?
Take a look on this one
http://cs.utsource.net/goods_files/pdf/16/168867_ZARLINK_ZN458.pdf (http://cs.utsource.net/goods_files/pdf/16/168867_ZARLINK_ZN458.pdf)
Simple and good
i will need to explore what could i do to make something that can sit on the 4th or even 5th decimal point, as a project, as curiosity
for me, anything on or past the 3rd decimal point is exploratory for me.
when you say artificial aging, am i right to say meaning baking over higher than normal temp 100-150oC? and cooling also? or no cooling? for say 1 week? then possibly this process is done on a ... bunch, and select a few good ones with least fluctuations.
Does anyone remember the radioactive epoxy disaster? What would have this done to floating-gate references like FGA? "Precision reference with enclosure-controlled precision decay" ? :)
...I have also done a one hour measurement on a 10V voltage reference.
To see the difference is the noise behavior of the D-105 and a Quad LT1021-5 and a lowpass 2x amplifier of my design.
...
Kind regarts,
Blackdog
Hi codeboy2k,
That is correct, but the schematic is not optimal, i wil change it, i will put a LTC2057 omamp in it.
And there is a stablility problem with the oven electronics.
No big problem, maybe 2 hours of work.
Kind regarts,
Blackdog
Sorry for the slightly off-topic question here but looking at terabyte and blackdog's trend pictures I'm a little confused.
It would appear you would need at least 8.5 digits to get this sort of resolution yet the 34461A's are touted as 6.5 digits
The other confusing aspect is (assuming at least 100NPLC) is the number of samples per second. I see in the specs it says at 100nplc it does 0.6/(0.5) readings/s
I'm currently looking through these meter's documentation in am attempt to understand how they're doing it but so far no good. Any links?
On the picture, 06:00 is 6 minutes.ok thanks
As far as the number of digits, the 34461A returns the full floating point number for the measurement over SCPI (i.e. ADC + calibration function), so it has plenty of digits and there is quite a bit more effective resolution than the 6.5 digits on the display.That's what I find confusing, specs stipulate +-(0.0015+0.0004) on the 10V scale for 24hrs. Doesn't that equate to roughly +-190uV rendering the nanovolt bits as mathematical artefacts?
That's what I find confusing, specs stipulate +-(0.0015+0.0004) on the 10V scale for 24hrs. Doesn't that equate to roughly +-190uV rendering the nanovolt bits as mathematical artefacts?
On the picture, 06:00 is 6 minutes.
As far as the number of digits, the 34461A returns the full floating point number for the measurement over SCPI (i.e. ADC + calibration function), so it has plenty of digits and there is quite a bit more effective resolution than the 6.5 digits on the display.
IIRC, the 34401A returns what is on the display, so no gravy.
Hey guys, I'm writing up the OP and gathering links for a general "Voltage Reference & Standards Megathread" right now.Great idea. :-+ The various threads have some very useful information in it, but as you indicate it's spread across a rather large number of posts. So one place to condense "the good bits" sound like a plan. :)
...
It'll also help keep track of relevant information that's currently spread over several threads.
Digi-Key sent an email about "new releases" including the Linear LS8 voltage references. I have not poured over the data sheets but it looks like a humidity insensitve ceramic package. Not sure if they are anything special.
http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/datasheet/6655fe.pdf (http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/datasheet/6655fe.pdf)
Appending a question to this thread, since it seems to have entered more enlightened territory:Evidently, not... quite... yet... I think I am going to stop trying to help people that are not nice to me. ('nuff said...)
*sigh* ... i feel like DIY-ing a LM399 in memory of leonard nimoy :(
...
Generally, ALL HP bench meters deliver one or two digits more over the bus, than displayed .
BenchVue also displays this additional resolution.
...
...
Generally, ALL HP bench meters deliver one or two digits more over the bus, than displayed .
BenchVue also displays this additional resolution.
...
Thanks Dr Frank. That prompted me to look for more information on the ADC and I stumbled on this HP journal issue with 6 articles on the ins and outs of the 3458A with a lot of very interesting content (very relevant to this thread). I assume it's been posted at some point before, but I thought I'd use the occasion to repost it:
http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1989-04.pdf (http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1989-04.pdf)
Also found this 1990 paper that has useful general content of DMM performance verification:
http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5991-1266EN.pdf (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5991-1266EN.pdf)
http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1989-04.pdf (http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1989-04.pdf)
288 hours isn't long term. Temperature drift is still drift, so it ultimately counts towards the accuracy of the system as a whole. This is why those figures are given in ppm/C. For long term temperature-independent results, the unit needs to be placed in a small chamber that can maintain absolute temperature (25c, 40c, whatever). Lastly, if you've only got 6.5 digit meters, don't bother. At that voltage the 10uV decade is noise anyway and accuracy to 100uV is nothing special. (Power Designs was doing 10uV accuracy in their benchtop power supplies in 1964 with a Zener and a few resistors).I'm just reporting what I have so far. If you don't like it that's really not my doing. But I'm impressed with the performance thus far. You should be too. As I said the test is "and running". I can't speed up the passage of time. But you can still criticize me for not doing that. I don't know what drives you. But those who contradict everything another man says, and who criticize everything another man does, are the sand in the intricate mechanism of civilization that makes cooperation among men impossible.
Sent from my Tablet
Where is the graph data plot? I don't see an attachment.I have to photograph the meters. Stay tuned.
Where is the graph data plot? I don't see an attachment.I have to photograph the meters. Stay tuned.
@Awsome14, Also if you read my post earlier about my testing of the D105 it is marginal to do test's with a 6.5 digit DMM. If you know anything about TAR (Test Accuracy Ratio) then you would know that to test the D105 accurately to the claimed precision you would need a TAR rating of 4 or better. A 6.5 digit DMM barely makes a rating of 1. At a minimum, you would need a 7.5 preferably an 8.5 digit DMM to get a rating of 4 or better and that is only going to happen at a cal lab. I am not trying to burst your bubble, but testing to the claimed precision with a 6.5 digit DMM is going to be marginal at best.We're not dealing with absolutes, only degrees of certainty. In the trend plot, the measurement uses a seventh digit of precision, because the trigger is set to 2 seconds, with 50,000 samples/trigger. So, since the meter can use a statistical mean of 50,000 readings per trigger, it gains a legitimate digit of accuracy. Correction: the meter uses 1000 samples per trigger. I have the benefit of checking our meters at least once per month. That adds certainty to the meter's readings. I also record the historical data, so I have drift figures. That increases certainty still more. The total range of the trend plot is 10VDC < +-2ppm. And, we have a 3458A to confirm the research findings.
@Awsome14, Also if you read my post earlier about my testing of the D105 it is marginal to do test's with a 6.5 digit DMM. If you know anything about TAR (Test Accuracy Ratio) then you would know that to test the D105 accurately to the claimed precision you would need a TAR rating of 4 or better. A 6.5 digit DMM barely makes a rating of 1. At a minimum, you would need a 7.5 preferably an 8.5 digit DMM to get a rating of 4 or better and that is only going to happen at a cal lab. I am not trying to burst your bubble, but testing to the claimed precision with a 6.5 digit DMM is going to be marginal at best.We're not dealing with absolutes, only degrees of certainty. In the trend plot, the measurement uses a seventh digit of precision, because the trigger is set to 2 seconds, with 50,000 samples/trigger. So, since the meter can use a statistical mean of 50,000 readings per trigger, it gains a legitimate digit of accuracy. I have the benefit of checking our meters at least once per month. That adds certainty to the meter's readings. I also record the historical data, so I have drift figures. That increases certainty still more. The total range of the trend plot is < 10VDC +-2ppm. And, we have a 3458 to confirm the research findings.
You can do R&D with a 6-1/2 digit and confirm the findings using an 8-12 digit. Using an 8-1/2 digit for everything takes too long! The meter in lower position in the photo is within 0.5ppm of our 732A, and its internal noise 0.1-0.2uVDC. You might say, "There's no way I could know that!" But there is! Just because something is unknown to one person does not mean it is unknown to everyone! I can test the internal noise of any DM meter, in five minutes!
Everyone who has tested the device intact has agreed that it works as claimed. I guess because of my personal beliefs or idiosyncrasies some people on this board reflexively question my abilities, intent, and credibility. I assure you I take good care to be correct in my claims. You simply have to imagine the catastrophic and immediate end that would come to an enterprise selling voltage standards that don't work as specified.
I've been doing this for years, and I haven't had a single complaint regarding the claims made for my devices. That speaks much louder than a handful of amateurs spouting canned jargon in a desperate plea to disparage me and my product. Let's see someone prove me wrong, in the real world! Two unsolicited, outside sources with 8-1/2 digit meters confirmed my own findings. What more do you want? Sheesh!
So I live in a world that's fun. Big deal! I like being entertained by everything! In my world, I have everything within the three-dimensional reality + many other valuable things. I am never bored. My mind ceaselessly creates. I love creating things. It makes me God's playmate. We create together. It's a lot of fun! I like having fun! If anyone is to fault me for it, they are not having enough fun. :)
Have you read your eBay page lately?Well darnit, now you made me read it. From the item description on ebay:
What this device is: It is a revolutionary voltage standard at an affordable price. If you want to get your lab synced to the SI second, our 0.0002% standard provides one possible way to do it.
The item is a 10.000000VDC Precision Voltage Reference Standard. It accepts 13.0VDC to 35.0VDC INPUT. The OUTPUT is 10.000000 VDC ±0.0002% (±2ppm) at 14.5VDC (+-1.0VDC) INPUT. The other unit we have listed is a 10.000000VDC +-0.0006% (+-6ppm) unit. The absolute accuracy, added temperature-control, and the price, are the only differences between this unit and our novice product, the +-0.0006% voltage standard. The +-0.0002% standard (the one in this description) has (4) four nonmagnetic, gold-flashed, color-coded banana-sockets w/binding posts for INPUT and OUTPUT connections. The internal connections are soldered or bolted. The regulator IC is socketed for low hysteresis and to prevent damaging the IC by soldering. The mainboard is a low-hysteresis design, which prevents output drift due to mechanical stresses on the regulator IC and other internal components. We hand-pick the precision voltage reference ICs we incorporate into the units—TI REF102C—and integrate it with (2) low-pass filters for ripple-suppression, shielding against induced thermoelectric effect, and passive temperature-compensation. The +-0.0002% standard can be power-cycled without affecting the absolute accuracy (+-2ppm). Among the photos is a laboratory null voltage-offset setup. The reading is: 0.0092mVDC (9.2uVDC; 0.92ppm). That is the maximum difference between the 732A 10.000000VDC OUTPUT and the 10.000000VDC OUTPUT of the +-0.0002% standard at its maximum actual error. The null setup is as follows: Fluke 732A OUTPUT (-)ground(-) to OUTPUT (-)ground(-) on the +-0.0002% standard. Power Supply 14.5 Volt DC (+) and (-) to INPUT of the +-0.0002% standard; 10.0VDC (+) OUTPUT (+) of Fluke 732A to DMM (-) low (-); 10VDC (+) OUTPUT (+) of +-0.0002% standard to DMM (+) high (+) . All units are nulled to a 732A or 732B Precision Voltage Reference. The +-0.0002% standard consumes roughly 18mW, so it may also be powered by (2) 9V alkaline batteries wired in series. The device settles in roughly five minutes. Maximum output load is 10.0 mA. The unit is durable and maintenance-free. It measures approximately 1.5" x 2.25" x 1.75". Calibration is available any time. We customize calibration parameters on request, i.e. input voltage, calibration temperature, output load, etc.. Test equipment and interconnect cords are not included. Questions, use the link below. Thank you for viewing our eBay.com listing! The following information may be of use to certain buyers. What this device is not: the device is not designed for use in mission-critical applications. What this device is: It is a revolutionary voltage standard at an affordable price. If you want to get your lab synced to the SI second, our 0.0002% standard provides one possible way to do it. The device does not require that it be powered on continuously. It will endure power cycling and retain its absolute accuracy of +-2ppm. Therefore, the device is rated for drift per 1,000 hours of use. Due to demand, we have begun long-term drift testing over 100% power-up conditions. See the graphs in the photos. We have also recently conducted a test to determine the effects of relative humidity on the output voltage. Initial results demonstrate a 17% RH range between 25% and 42% RH has no immediate effect on output voltage. Based on tests done with each unit, and also a number of samples from outside sources, we have estimated the actual absolute error of our +-0.0002% product to be within +-2ppm, with 95% certainty. In many instances it is desirable to ship our unit (shipping weight = 4 oz.; 112 gm.) from place to place in a powered-down state than to ship a Fluke 732B in a powered-up state, because the accuracy required for a particular application may be less than the 732B provides, and shipping costs are much less. Based on preliminary findings we will guarantee by traceable certificate, +-0.0002% absolute accuracy within the specified operating environment conditions, at >=10 MOhm load, between 0 and 60 days; +-3.5ppm for 61-120 days; and 4.5ppm for 121-180 days. Nothing else will get the volt in the door at a lower cost. The +-0.0002% (+-2ppm) voltage standard was released January 2015. The only data we had acquired at that time was drift figures in ppm/1,000-hours-of-use format, and temperature drift ppm/degreeC. Presently, we are doing research on drift per %RH, and drift per multiple 1,000 hours of use. However, we have years of data for our +-0.0006% (+-6ppm) voltage standard, which uses the same regulator IC. Therefore, we can make certain assumptions that hold true for any device using the same IC. I am not an amateur. This device was created by University graduates outstanding in their fields! I rigorously test, and confirm my findings, before any public claims are made regarding our products. We have 100% positive feedback. We've sold hundreds of voltage standards on eBay! They have been tested on 8-1/2-digit meters by at least five separate, outside sources, which have confirmed our own claims.
Curious. Another thing I just noticed on that ebay page:
External Calibration Controls: Yes
Are those the external calibration controls inside the box that shall not be opened, or some other external calibration controls?
Below the red and green round stickers (between the binding post's) you will find a small hole each and through these holes you can reach to the two 10-turns potentiometers. I presume this is what he means with "external calibration control"Thanks, that answers that. Didn't notice that bit of information if it was mentioned earlier on in the thread...
288 hours isn't long term. Temperature drift is still drift, so it ultimately counts towards the accuracy of the system as a whole. This is why those figures are given in ppm/C. For long term temperature-independent results, the unit needs to be placed in a small chamber that can maintain absolute temperature (25c, 40c, whatever). Lastly, if you've only got 6.5 digit meters, don't bother. At that voltage the 10uV decade is noise anyway and accuracy to 100uV is nothing special. (Power Designs was doing 10uV accuracy in their benchtop power supplies in 1964 with a Zener and a few resistors).I'm just reporting what I have so far. If you don't like it that's really not my doing. But I'm impressed with the performance thus far. You should be too. As I said the test is "and running". I can't speed up the passage of time. But you can still criticize me for not doing that. I don't know what drives you. But those who contradict everything another man says, and who criticize everything another man does, are the sand in the intricate mechanism of civilization that makes cooperation among men impossible.
Sent from my Tablet
That's a good design for the test. But it isn't the only possible design. It's a brute-force design needed to determine a minimum error. The other way it can be done is to use the worst-possible-scenario example, measure the results, and determine the maximum error of the worst possible example. Other units will be equal or better. Your design is meant to produce data to support tighter specifications. The alternative to that is to spec the device with comfortable margins for error. Then, you just have to determine whether any example performs outside the margins. Setting the error at double what experimental evidence indicates saves a lot of work.288 hours isn't long term. Temperature drift is still drift, so it ultimately counts towards the accuracy of the system as a whole. This is why those figures are given in ppm/C. For long term temperature-independent results, the unit needs to be placed in a small chamber that can maintain absolute temperature (25c, 40c, whatever). Lastly, if you've only got 6.5 digit meters, don't bother. At that voltage the 10uV decade is noise anyway and accuracy to 100uV is nothing special. (Power Designs was doing 10uV accuracy in their benchtop power supplies in 1964 with a Zener and a few resistors).I'm just reporting what I have so far. If you don't like it that's really not my doing. But I'm impressed with the performance thus far. You should be too. As I said the test is "and running". I can't speed up the passage of time. But you can still criticize me for not doing that. I don't know what drives you. But those who contradict everything another man says, and who criticize everything another man does, are the sand in the intricate mechanism of civilization that makes cooperation among men impossible.
Sent from my Tablet
I like how you automatically go on the offensive without reading (or understanding) my entire post.
Let me break down what you need to do for true long term testing:
1) You need to test at least 10 units at the same time. This can easily be done for less than $100 by buying a switching mainframe on eBay. In fact, there are a few HP 3488A up right now for >$75 with relay modules. Another good choice would be the Keithley 7001, it runs a bit high price wise but you can find them for less than $100. Finally, the Keithley 705 is a solid choice. (If you really wanted to do it right you would get a Keithley 2002 8.5 digit meter, which has a built-in slot for scanner cards.)
2) All 10 units need to be in a controlled, constant temperature environment. A styrofoam cooler with a 40c PTC heater would work if you don't want to deal with PID controllers.
3) The wires going to the scanner need to be shielded twisted pair. The wires going to the DMM as well should be terminated with gold copper spade lugs for low thermal emf affects.
4) You would have the scanner switch between units every X seconds and trigger the meter to make X measurements at the slowest integration rate, for each unit, which your software will then average and store as a single reading.
Do this for 3-6 months undisturbed and you'll have useful data.
In fact, I couldn't tell from your last post, but you *are* logging what you're currently doing to a PC and not relying solely on the compressed averaging TrendPlot display, right?
Sent from my Tablet
@ Timb : are you talking about the UGsimple usb converter.
Looks like our friend Awesome14 also sells his standard without any magic thermal compensation:
sometimes i wonder ... how should 1 justify the cost of a Vref ...
Looks like our friend Awesome14 also sells his standard without any magic thermal compensation:Nice review. Can't believe how many people actually ordered the snake oil. Current ebay listings for the "higher end" unit show 18 units sold and the "lower end" unit shows 46 sold.
Scullcom Hobby Electronics #8 - Precision Voltage Reference Modules (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zm_ZBT4t4dA#ws)
Teradown starts at 31:00
The construction of these units is superb.
it is interesting to note ... every picture posted here about the PCB is always the same "KLMNOP..." are they all of the same board? or all the units use this particular section ?May be that is part of the "magic"
in the background, the banana jack bottoms are ... filed off it seems?Yes, they are cut and then filed down very roughly.
and that video ... it says its the most accurate Vref in its price range?In the video, I think he was only referring to the claims and not the actual unit.
For your Linux VISA stuff, check out InstrumentKit: https://github.com/Galvant/InstrumentKitThat sounds pretty good. I'll clone the git repository.
It's made by the guy who has that $50 USB to GPIB adapter on eBay. It supports VISA, USBTMC, Serial and GPIB. It's easy to write a module that supports your device as all the communication stuff is taken care of.
I wrote a comm module to support my NI Serial to GPIB adapter. Now I've got 10 GPIB, 3 USBTMC and 2 serial devices all being controlled by a BeagleBone Black.
I'm currently working on a Web Interface that will hook in with InstrumentKit. It will allow you to write and save LUA scripts to easily perform T&M functions. Using some slick libraries you'll even be able to see realtime graphs of the data right on the page.
Sent from my Tablet
You want the relay modules. The general purpose relay module will work for you. It does 10 DPDT connections I think. The solid state modules are basically an array of mosfets designed for signaling applications.OK, I ordered the wrong multiplexer. So, I ordered the general-purpose keithley 7011-S. It's supposed to be here next week Wednesday. I wonder, does anyone know if every relay in the multiplexer requires custom compensation. I could also read the manual.
Sent from my Tablet
The man must have purchased his unit before we switched to the 102C. Originally, we used the 1021. But only about 50-100 of those were sold. We switched the chip and now the listing says the IC is the TIREF102C. That was a terrible review, because the device wasn't used properly.Looks like our friend Awesome14 also sells his standard without any magic thermal compensation:
And is using different IC's with clearly very different specifications.
Sometimes the REF102A and
Sometimes the LT1021C
Hi Group,We sourced the 1021s from mouser and digikey.
There are two version for sale on eBay, one with temperature compensation and one without. This is the one without.
I noticed in the video (31:00) the LT1021 has date code: 0248. This week 48 of year 2002.
This suggests the part was probably surplus, not fresh parts from an authorized distributor.
Jay_Diddy_B
g' morning JayAll units with temperature compensation use the TIREF102C.
I don't even know the date code on mine, I don't want to pull off the magic foil ..
Despite the crudeness of the construction, it does work as well as any temperature compensated reference will work, and relies on the performance of the REF102C / LT1021C + the temperature compensation provided by the thermistor.
Since it was calibrated with the magic foil in it's magic place, I didn't want to mess with that, for fear of losing a ppm or two in tape residue :)
I won't know what part I have, until I decide I want to recalibrate it.
That was a terrible review, because the device wasn't used properly.I think it would help, if you had clear markings of "input"and "output" on the binding posts
All units with temperature compensation use the TIREF102C.
That was a terrible review, because the device wasn't used properly.
In the 7011-S specifications, they state <5 uV (microvolt) contact potential per relay contact, but <2 uV per contact pair. You should always use a pair for switching the hi and lo side inputs at the same time. The thermoelectric potential is lower because it is assumed that the pair of contacts will be around the same temperature and therefore around the same potential, effectively cancelling each other out, as voltage is measured differentially across the pair.You want the relay modules. The general purpose relay module will work for you. It does 10 DPDT connections I think. The solid state modules are basically an array of mosfets designed for signaling applications.OK, I ordered the wrong multiplexer. So, I ordered the general-purpose keithley 7011-S. It's supposed to be here next week Wednesday. I wonder, does anyone know if every relay in the multiplexer requires custom compensation. I could also read the manual.
Sent from my Tablet
If this transfer standard could actually maintain even 10ppm/year stability I would have to consider that Calibratory has some very specific empirical knowledge regarding those commodity 1% tolerance metal film resistors. Let's call them CMFRs. Anyway, that's what they look like. The specs. for commodity metal films is +/-1000ppm/year. Thus, the D105 should become useless after 12 months. That said, I believe that the stability specs published are for CMFRs at rated current, and 80C temp. I haven't found data on CMFR stability at 23C over a year. I might conjecture that Calibratory has a secret temperature cycling procedure to improve stability of CMFRs. Perhaps CMFRs become more stable with time, just as the reference does. Merely having an ample inventory of 20 year old CMFRs may permit Calibratory to select the ones that have remained stable for that long. In order to maintain records on hundreds, or thousands of CMFRs for years on end would take a particular type of individual. Indeed. Has anyone on this forum ever built two identical reference circuits, one with CMFRs, and the same one with foil or ww to actually compare stability at, a small temperature range (+/-5C) above and below 23C for over a year or more? Then, of course, there's that 1K trimmer. That seems too much range, to me. As a disclaimer, I've purchased a D105, but I don't have a metrology lab setup that can track the progress or demise of my D105 over the course of a year. According to Calibratory, the D105 should remain unpowered, when not in use, for greatest stablility. That sentiment is not without support from some respected metrologists. In one scholarly paper LTZ1000 references were only powered on when needed. Aging was significantly less than other units left on continuously. IMHO, this is truly a Wait and See thread at this point.
The device is a hit, worldwide. In our latest eBay listings there are about 100 units sold. And we have a 100% feedback score.
The construction of these units is superb. There is nothing left to chance.
Geller SVR stage
+18V o----------------+----- SVR#1 10V -----+-----o
| |
+----- SVR#2 10V -----+
+----- SVR#1 GND -----+-----o
|
GND o--+-------------+----- SVR#2 GND -----+
| |
+--- D105#1 10V ---- D105#2 GND ----+
| |
+--- D105#1 GND ---- D105#2 10V ----+
Calibratory "null" stage
<snip>
I really liked the SVR-T boards as simple voltage transfer standards from a Fluke 732. I also liked that Geller Labs was so open with design, schematic and BOM´s (including my NTC compensation with both first and second order compensation that Joe could have kept for himself). What I missed on the SVR was a box, banana jacks, reverse power polarity and EMC filtering. At least three of these requirements are satisfied with the D105. For EMC protection I can live without that by just turning off my mobile. In my lab I have no high EMI sources and no large transmitters nearby.
I think in your own case the ultimate 10V standard could be made by making an array of paralleled standards using both the D105's and the SVR's thus:
So volt-nuts get to eat a lot of "Glass" ;)
/Bingo
We also purchased another 732A, three Fluke 8846As, (2) multiplexer rigs by Keithley (7001 ), and standard resistors. We tested and calculated the internal resistance (0.017 Ohm) of the units and the current draw at 10MOhm (3.0mA).
I just read trough this entire thread. You should really charge money for that kind of entertainment, we really laughed out behinds off instead of getting any work done today ;)
Somehow this guy reminds me of Chris-Chan or Drachenlord, with more religious WTF added.
Now for the productive part, did anybody try to build the same circuit without the special god-grade magic and special-needs soldering? I would, but i dont have anything to verify the performance to see if it works just as well or better.
Martin mentions this device in his latest video at around 17:20 and ends at 17:48 ...Also mentioned at 02:40 - 03:40.
More interesting is Ian's voltage source. Very nice. Shame it's "only" 10ppm compared do the fantasy 2ppm of Calibratory
More interesting is Ian's voltage source. Very nice. Shame it's "only" 10ppm compared do the fantasy 2ppm of Calibratory
Hello,
Ians voltage source has also one weakness: (12:29)
Where do I get those 9V-Blocks with 600mAh?
With a current draw of 40 mA even those will not last for a 24 hour period.
And after exchange of the batteries (with opening the case) I have to wait 15-30 minutes to stabilize.
So a charger input would be a large benefit.
With best regards
Andreas
This use profile will also minimize reference drift, because the LM399 "drifts very little" when powered off [according to the chip's designer-- Bob Dobkin].
This use profile will also minimize reference drift, because the LM399 "drifts very little" when powered off [according to the chip's designer-- Bob Dobkin].
In 1980's Tinsley manufactured a voltage standard which had two LM399 references. The "working" reference was always powered, but the "primary" reference was switched off, except one hour every month when it was used for calibrating the "working" reference.
The idea was very good. The product itself wasn't.
A charger/external DC supply is something I did look at early on, but it opens up a whole new ballgame in terms of interference and also CE marking........so I abandoned.......for now.
Btw, I am gobsmacked at the D-105........how on earth anyone can have the gall to sell something like that and then try and defend it beats me!
Ian.
Hello Ian.
It´s always good to know why a design decision was made.
And it´s true: even a charging connector creates a different class of device (with additional tests) for the CE-marking.
For the D-105: everyone who has some experiences in the precision range knows that without a hermetically (metal can or CerDip) voltage reference a stability of below 20 ppm is too optimistic. Unfortunately not all potential customers are aware of that and might believe the 2 ppm spec for the reference in plastic package.
With best regards
Andreas
Ian, do you mount the LM399 upside down? I've noted the volt-nuttery have proven this is best for battery powered designs (presumably wastes less power on heater). Either that, or TiNs LM399 Kx boards were a fuck up - I remember trying to follow the excellent super hi-res PCB layouts and scratching my head... :-DD
One thing I would have liked to see on your reference is a x10 amplifier to get up to 100V.
LM399 Kx boards were a fuck upI wanted to have option to control LM399 temperature externally, hence they are on bottom side. Doesn't matter once it all in the foam..
"Despite that, it DOES WORK as built and calibrated by Awesome14, and it holds it's value to the best of my ability to measure it. The naysayers need to keep that in mind. The temperature compensation works, I've not seen any changes in output and my home lab fluctuates about 10 deg C from morning to night (it quickly cools down over night!). So if i'm getting 2 ppm/C then I can't see the 20 ppm change on my meter (which is expected, since I only have a 5-1/2 digit meter). When I get a better meter I'll be able to measure it better.
The value in your product is in the calibration you offer. I can build it just as easily as you did, but I can't get it trimmed near 10V like you did, so that's valuable to me."
I agree with this statement excerpted from codeboy2k's response above. My measurements also are consistent with the spec, and I thought the price was reasonable for the calibration included.
All units with temperature compensation use the TIREF102C.
Thanks for the update awesome14! That's good to know, I like the REF102 specs better.
I was really disappointed to see it hand wired, and would have preferred to see a manufactured PC board in there. Please don't say it's not meant to be opened. It should be safe to open any reference, as long as I don't mess with the settings. People open up 8 digit DMM's and Fluke 732's. Opening it should not be a problem.
Despite that, it DOES WORK as built and calibrated by Awesome14, and it holds it's value to the best of my ability to measure it. The naysayers need to keep that in mind. The temperature compensation works, I've not seen any changes in output and my home lab fluctuates about 10 deg C from morning to night (it quickly cools down over night!). So if i'm getting 2 ppm/C then I can't see the 20 ppm change on my meter (which is expected, since I only have a 5-1/2 digit meter). When I get a better meter I'll be able to measure it better.
The value in your product is in the calibration you offer. I can build it just as easily as you did, but I can't get it trimmed near 10V like you did, so that's valuable to me.
Good to see that you decided to make a PCB (I think you said so in one of your previous posts). There's a lot of good information here in the forum, and lots of smart people who have good advice to offer you. You can make a really nice, clean and small PCB to fit in there, and it will significantly reduce your construction time and effort, and the product will still function as it should, and will ultimately be better in the end. So consider that advice when you do, and you'll make a good product. With Gellar Labs no longer making temperature compensated references, you are in a unique position and have a head start on anyone else jumping in to fill that void. Go for it!
No one likes smoke and mirrors, so they might poke you on that, so remember to stick with the measured facts, only science and engineering here.
Cheers!
Any updates on long-term stability measurements of the device?
Oh lord, here we go again!
Let's see the empirical data to back up these statements. How often were measurements taken? Was the device connected to the same meter(s) and left undisturbed the entire time? Post a dump of the raw data for the entire 120 day period, please.
Sent from my Tablet
It has been made obvious throughout this blog that this design is, at best, a hobbyist approch to supply a somewhat precise (but in the end unknown) 10V reference voltage. And to be fair, more is not expectable at that price.
From a principle design perspective, using a reference (with an unknown tempco, could be up to plus or minus 10ppm/C for the LT1021C) and compensating it with a thermistor may result in some temp compensation by coincidence, but this is by no means guaranteed, it may actually become worse. So in real life use, it may or may not compensate environmental temp drifts. That allone makes the 2ppm statement useless (ignoring anyway the fact that the 2ppm number misses any tolerance information with reference to national standards).
Overall, when you do a error propagation calc of all the possible contributors of error, lets face it, this item probably is rather in the 50ppm (K=2) level uncertainty worst case or more once on a users desk (initial drift, initial standard tolerance, worst case temp drift...).
One could go on, like no low EMF binding posts used (not expectable at that price). And so on and so on.
All this makes it an item with undefined specification, maybe usable to check 3.5 or 4.5 meters in a hobbyist environment, but thats it.
Any more statistics will not change this, given its basic design and build standards.
The device is a hit, worldwide. In our latest eBay listings there are about 100 units sold. And we have a 100% feedback score.
There are multiple hypothesis that could be consistent with these results. You have a hypothesis that you have a natural bias towards, the one that proves you right, and makes you money.
An alternate hypothesis is that your customers don't know what they don't know, and aren't able to adequately validate your claims. And further, that you have, through cunning or dumb luck, chosen a combination of price point and claimed precision such that anyone with the knowledge and equipment to validate your claims isn't willing to invest the time, money and energy necessary to prove or disprove them.
I love the idea of an outsider proving the experts wrong. I know though that that can cloud my judgement. So, I look for independent sources of evidence. If you are both genuine and truly clever, you'll find ways to turn some of your critics into allies, rather than continuing to use them as foils to promote an underdog narrative.
The construction of these units is superb. There is nothing left to chance.
Here comes an offer. Let me do a proper printed circuit board and mechanical redesign for your product. Free of charge.
It costs you absolutely nothing. PCB and mechanical design was my day job for many many years, so I am sure that you will get more than you pay for.
Electrical, mechanical and thermal things taken into account. Binding posts mounted directly on the PCB, no wiring required. Probably saves your assembly time by 90%.
You will receive a set of ready processed manufacturing files. All you need to do is send them to a board manufacturing house of your choice.
The new design probably replaces some of the "magic" with improved reliability and stability, but I believe your customers can live with that.
For some reason I have a feeling what the answer is, but you never know...
More speculation. We've sold this item in Asia, Japan, every western European nation, South America, Africa, Russia, every US state, UK, China, Australia, New Zealand! WHY, because residents of these locations cannot find something better for the price. It's a revolutionary product unlike anything else in the world. We've sold to university labs, calibration labs, industrial labs. One of our buyers said he bought our unit so he wouldn't have to lug around his Fluke 732B!
In the end of August I couldn’t resist buying a D105 just out of curiosity. It arrived in a week to Sweden but at the same day it arrived I went on a two week trip abroad so the D105 was left in my home for two more weeks before power-up. It showed +8ppm against my other voltage references but that may not say so much as I am not fortunate to have a calibrated Fluke 732. But what caught my attention was that it seemed to drift with temperature. So I did a temperature scan between 16 and 26°C. It showed a 13ppm difference. I contacted Calibratory LLC and they were very helpful. I got an instruction how much to turn the temperature compensation pot. Adjusted and did another temperature scan and the difference between 16 and 26 was just 1ppm. As the second-order temperature coefficient is quite high on the REF102 (and most all other buried zener based 10V refs) around room temperature I didn´t bother about the last ppm over 10°C range. I set the output to what I believed is 10V.
On October 6 I started to continuously check the D105 (which I call D105-1 in the chart below as it was my first D105). In the first two weeks the output dropped 7ppm and when was relative stable until I started a humidity test a week ago. On Oct 13 I got my second D105 (I call it D105-2). This time the D105 was spot on!! But in the next one and half weeks it moved 4ppm upwards before it stabilized.
Now afterwards I have checked my weather station and found the indoor humidity was almost 60% in September that is quite normal here in autumn. In the beginning of October it fell very quickly to about 40% and has stayed at 35-50% since when (We have had very nice weather in October and November)
On Nov 11 I placed both D105´s together with one of my Geller labs SVR boards in a two liter ice cream box together with 150grams of silica gel I have prepared earlier to have almost 90% relative humidity. Now after a week the SVR hasn´t changed but the D105´s has went up about 15-20ppm.
This test is very similar to tests I have done on six SVR boards with AD587LN´s with different datecodes from 1994 to 2006 (Note: the AD587LN were not ones supplied by Geller Labs). That test also revealed a change of up to 20ppm for 40-50%RH change. The interesting with the AD587LN was that one with datecode from 2004 had a very fast negative change with time constant of about a day or two and that counseled the long term positive change. So for slow humidity changes this looked very good. The other has just a small or almost zero fast negative sensitivity to humidity and the positive long term humidity sensitivity were shown as seasonal variations.
After having said this I still hope we can keep the discussion on a technical level and that nobody says wasn´t this what I already thought. I think we really should encourage Calibratory LLC to develop this standard more and be open minded. I really liked the SVR-T boards as simple voltage transfer standards from a Fluke 732. I also liked that Geller Labs was so open with design, schematic and BOM´s (including my NTC compensation with both first and second order compensation that Joe could have kept for himself). What I missed on the SVR was a box, banana jacks, reverse power polarity and EMC filtering. At least three of these requirements are satisfied with the D105. For EMC protection I can live without that by just turning off my mobile. In my lab I have no high EMI sources and no large transmitters nearby.
So my conclusions are: My two D105 are humidity sensitive but I like the design and concept of a voltage transfer standard in small package. And I really hope for a good open discussion.
Lars
We also purchased another 732A, three Fluke 8846As, (2) multiplexer rigs by Keithley (7001 ), and standard resistors. We tested and calculated the internal resistance (0.017 Ohm) of the units and the current draw at 10MOhm (3.0mA).
I'm currently working on an automated cal/measure rig, which uses a Keithley 7001. Which cards are you using? What cabling? How are the standards connected to the DUT? I'm particularly interested in the resistance side of things. How did you wire the 4-wire ohms through the 7001 (+I, +S, Ohm G and -I, -S, Ohm G)?
More speculation. We've sold this item in Asia, Japan, every western European nation, South America, Africa, Russia, every US state, UK, China, Australia, New Zealand! WHY, because residents of these locations cannot find something better for the price. It's a revolutionary product unlike anything else in the world. We've sold to university labs, calibration labs, industrial labs. One of our buyers said he bought our unit so he wouldn't have to lug around his Fluke 732B!
If a calibration lab purchased it for anything other than to satisfy a curiosity - I would be baffled. Please provide the name of any lab that is using these for any type of reference so I know who NOT to call on for calibration.
At the price you are selling these things, it is not a challenge to get customers to buy it once and take their chances. Once they see the reality, it is very hard to imagine anyone buying a second, third, or more.
You really have to try one. A number of our buyers have purchased more than one unit.
I bought one from you .... was so disappointed and gave it away ....
Here is my original picture again, if you need a reminder.
I was really disappointed to see it hand wired.Kind of like telling Einstein he has bad penmanship.
Would have preferred to see a manufactured PC board in there. Please don't say it's not meant to be opened. It should be safe to open any reference, as long as I don't mess with the settings. People open up 8 digit DMM's and Fluke 732's. Opening it should not be a problem.
Good to see that you decided to make a PCB (I think you said so in one of your previous posts). There's a lot of good information here in the forum, and lots of smart people who have good advice to offer you. You can make a really nice, clean and small PCB to fit in there, and it will significantly reduce your construction time and effort, and the product will still function as it should, and will ultimately be better in the end. So consider that advice when you do, and you'll make a good product. With Gellar Labs no longer making temperature compensated references, you are in a unique position and have a head start on anyone else jumping in to fill that void. Go for it!
No one likes smoke and mirrors, so they might poke you on that, so remember to stick with the measured facts, only science and engineering here.
Quote from: codeboy2kI was really disappointed to see it hand wired.Kind of like telling Einstein he has bad penmanship.
Kind of like telling Einstein he has bad penmanship.
Quote from: codeboy2kI was really disappointed to see it hand wired.Kind of like telling Einstein he has bad penmanship.
QuoteKind of like telling Einstein he has bad penmanship.
I agree. It's best that facts guide us forward rather then going down the rabbit hole of subjectivity.
You really have to try one. A number of our buyers have purchased more than one unit.
I bought one from you .... was so disappointed and gave it away ....
Here is my original picture again, if you need a reminder.
I bought one from you .... was so disappointed and gave it away ....
Here is my original picture again, if you need a reminder.
I can't believe that photo!............I personally could not under any circumstances ever produce and sell something of that build quality (and yes, I sell my own Precision Voltage Source)......no matter how it performs. I couldn't even pot it then sell it knowing what lurked beneath.
Pride has gone out the door in exchange for dollars...............
Ian.
Quote from: codeboy2kI was really disappointed to see it hand wired.Kind of like telling Einstein he has bad penmanship.
No, its like saying Einstein is bad at basic arithmetic. Soldering is the fundamental tool of the trade. To say you've built a unique and revolutionary voltage reference, solder like a 5 year old with no thumbs and claim that it doesn't matter is laughable.
(https://uproxx.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/flowers-for-charlie-cat3.gif?w=650)
Quote from: codeboy2kI was really disappointed to see it hand wired.Kind of like telling Einstein he has bad penmanship.
No, its like saying Einstein is bad at basic arithmetic. Soldering is the fundamental tool of the trade. To say you've built a unique and revolutionary voltage reference, solder like a 5 year old with no thumbs and claim that it doesn't matter is laughable.
The neatness of our construction has vastly, improved over time, as all things will.
Pure jealousy!
You can't do better at design and performance, so you attack at the solder level: the only thing you can do better at.
If the solder makes the connection, it's working.
But the design and performance actually require talent. Think of how many people can solder and then how many people can design and implement top-performing products like we can. And don't say our product doesn't perform until you have data to back it up!
The neatness of our construction has vastly, improved over time, as all things will. But there are two kinds of people, those who create and those who destroy. Creation requires talent and skill, whereas destruction does not. I encourage everyone to create, because that makes a better world!
If you can't use a product that performs better than any other in its price range, simply because just thinking about messy soldering causes you so much angst as to render misery of such magnitude that it cannot be tolerated, well, if that was me, I'd seek professional help. But that's just me.
But performance is key.
Quote from: codeboy2kI was really disappointed to see it hand wired.Kind of like telling Einstein he has bad penmanship.QuoteKind of like telling Einstein he has bad penmanship.
I agree. It's best that facts guide us forward rather then going down the rabbit hole of subjectivity.
Wrong!.......Einstein did not sell or otherwise supply what he did as a "product" to those who wanted it and those who wanted to use it.
However, you did, and therefore you owe it to your customers to supply a product with a reasonable level of good workmanship within it. You wouldn't buy a Tv that, although worked, was cobbled together in the manner you have seen fit to put yours together.
If you really want to get away with it.......t would be better and clearer to your customers if you stated up front on your ads that you have used a prototyping assembly process & components to make up your device. The electronics community and your customers deserve it don't you think?
It's not subjective......there exists basic expectations in selling an electronics product to the public.....and this is one of them.
Help ma boab, have some pride in what you make man, have some pride!
Ian.
Fair enough. Will you post some pictures of your most recent units?
Pure jealousy!
I think I can say, without fear of being gainsaid, that nobody here feels jealous of you.QuoteYou can't do better at design and performance, so you attack at the solder level: the only thing you can do better at.
Have a look through the voltage reference designs in this topic. There are clearly published designs, constructed versions of the same, and reams and reams of long term monitoring results against accepted standards. There are clearly many people here who can do better at design and can prove performance, and construct and solder cleanly and reliable too.QuoteIf the solder makes the connection, it's working.
Until it doesn't. Have you never heard of the concept of construction for reliability? Would you buy a car constructed as scrapily as your electronics are? Of course you wouldn't unless you only needed it to work for 10 or 20 miles.QuoteBut the design and performance actually require talent. Think of how many people can solder and then how many people can design and implement top-performing products like we can. And don't say our product doesn't perform until you have data to back it up!
And we say you shouldn't make such rarefied claims for your skills and products until you've got the data to prove it and are prepared to show it.QuoteThe neatness of our construction has vastly, improved over time, as all things will. But there are two kinds of people, those who create and those who destroy. Creation requires talent and skill, whereas destruction does not. I encourage everyone to create, because that makes a better world!
If you can't use a product that performs better than any other in its price range, simply because just thinking about messy soldering causes you so much angst as to render misery of such magnitude that it cannot be tolerated, well, if that was me, I'd seek professional help. But that's just me.
Look, there's something more than a few hundred, perhaps even 1000 years of collected experience here telling you you're doing something wrong. Yet you still keep hand waving and telling us how brilliant you are and if we disagree you stoop to ad hominem attacks. Who is more likely to need to seek professional help - someone who refuses to accept the judgement of a large group of experienced engineers, or a large group of experienced engineers who all agree with each other about the facts of the matter? Would you please consider who is more likely to be right here and who is more likely to be, frankly, deluded?
Yes, I have seen some good designs on this board for DC references, but few that can provide equal performance to mine. My claims are tested, but you will notice I don't make many claims. I constructed a 10VDC LTZ1000-based reference, and the best I could get out of it, after perhaps 50 prototype revisions, was 1ppm/degree C. Other than that, and the cost of the parts, it was about equivalent to the one we currently sell.
Wait, you're claiming that your D-105 is on par with a well designed and constructed LTZ1000 based voltage reference?! Is that seriously what you just said?
If that's the case, then why do all these 7.5/8.5 digit DVMs use the LTZ1000? Fluke, Keysight, et al go through painstaking effort to not only design those reference circuits, but actually check each individual LTZ1000 and bin them accordingly. Why would they do that if they could just poorly solder some cheap reference onto a piece of perfboard and call it a day? Hmm?
Also, I'm *still* waiting for those raw CSV files of data from your "long term testing" that you promised 6-months ago.
I'm not trying to fool anyone. I report only what I directly observe.
I'm not trying to fool anyone. I report only what I directly observe.
Send me one and I'll test.
- HP 3458a 8.5 digit DMM (calibrated less than a couple weeks ago).
- Keysight 34461 6.5 digit DMM with logging.
- Temperature environment chamber (controlled range 10deg below ambient to 35degC approx).
- Temperature controlled workshop 23degC +/- 1 degC.
I'll post results/graphs here straight out the box.
Ian.
that guy knows, what he is doing.Ralf sure does! Hadn't visited his site in a while, thanks for the heads-up.
That one is even better, a standard out of thin air.. but that guy knows, what he is doing..
http://www.amplifier.cd/Technische_Berichte/Spannungsnormal/Spannungsnormal_Eigenbau.html (http://www.amplifier.cd/Technische_Berichte/Spannungsnormal/Spannungsnormal_Eigenbau.html)
Frank
That one is even better, a standard out of thin air.. but that guy knows, what he is doing..
http://www.amplifier.cd/Technische_Berichte/Spannungsnormal/Spannungsnormal_Eigenbau.html (http://www.amplifier.cd/Technische_Berichte/Spannungsnormal/Spannungsnormal_Eigenbau.html)
Frank
For all non-German members:
The guy is describing the process of building his voltage reference using a pretty sophisticated German writing style combined with some nice pictures. The author uses his language abilities to justify his freestyle 3D layout which ressembles some electronic device that has accidentally suffered from a waste press treatment.
http://www.amplifier.cd/Technische_Berichte/Spannungsnormal/images/Leiterplatte.jpg (http://www.amplifier.cd/Technische_Berichte/Spannungsnormal/images/Leiterplatte.jpg)
What really strikes you is the lack of parts and source information.
The author deliberately leaves out any hint on that kind of information although it's obvious by looking at the pictures which parts he is using.
His built description qualifies as entertainment only - you won't find any usable information you could learn from when building your own reference. The degree of show off becomes obvious once you read the translation below:
[...
die Spannungsrefenzen sind ein bekannter Typ, der den fachkundigen Lesern bekannt ist - die Nennung spart man sich. Das
The voltage references are of a known type which is known to knowledgable readers - I save my breath to quote them.
schöne an diesen Exemplaren ist, sie hat einen Date Code aus dem Jahr 1991, unbenutzt und richtig alt (so alt kaum erhältlich) - ein
The good thing with these parts is, it has a date code form 1991, unused and really old (hardly obtainable that old)
schönes Gefühl, so lange natürlich vorgealterte Exemplare zu bekommen. Die Kunst mit diesem Referenztyp ist nicht das "Kaufen",
a good feeling to get naturally preaged parts. The art with this type of reference is not the act of buying
sondern danach das "richtig machen", hierüber finden sich im Internet viele, teils sehr gute Diskussionen.
"but the right doing afterwards", about this matter there can be found lots of discussions on the internet, partly very good ones.
Eine weitere IC-Referenz, die beim Distributor derzeit schon für ca. 90 Euro verkauft wird
Another reference IC, being sold at distributor level already for approx. 90 Euros now
...]
If you like the entertainment aspect of pseudo-science promoted by the awesome soldering expert with his proprietary soldering spraying techniques (improves EMP transient handling O0) or the German voltage reference developer with the nice pictures you could as well read across the now disfunctional page of self-proclaimed krypto expert Detlef Granzow:
https://web.archive.org/web/20140517164246/http://kryptochef.org/ (https://web.archive.org/web/20140517164246/http://kryptochef.org/)
This guy even managed to be quoted by well-known Bruce Schneier - but not in a positive manner.
Have fun reading!
Best regards
try
For all non-German members:
The guy is describing the process of building his voltage reference using a pretty sophisticated German writing style combined with some nice pictures. The author uses his language abilities to justify his freestyle 3D layout which ressembles some electronic device that has accidentally suffered from a waste press treatment.
For all non-German members:
The guy is describing the process of building his voltage reference using a pretty sophisticated German writing style combined with some nice pictures. The author uses his language abilities to justify his freestyle 3D layout which ressembles some electronic device that has accidentally suffered from a waste press treatment.
What stands out for me is the bill of materials:
Bauteile 1500
spezielle Lote 250
Balsaholz 40
Außenhölzer 100
Metallgehäuse 500
vieles was hier noch auf die Liste kommt, aber noch nicht fotographiert wurde -
Summe Material bisher: 2390 Euro
Zeitbedarf Entwicklung für Aufbau, Messen, Simulation, Berechnungen - bisher: >400 Stunden
732B is assigned at 10.00000000 VDC. Seems like NIST/PTB and rest of the world just wasted money on JJA's, they could just get a magical 732B and be happy with 1ppb precision :-DD. Especially curious what magical voltmeter did he use to verify this. Oh wait, magic does not need verification, it is just there! :-DMM
Furthermore the guy is selling low resistance leads claiming 0,003 Ohm resistance.
http://www.ebay.de/itm/24-Kt-GP-M-to-M-Banana-to-Banana-10-AWG-Low-Resistance-Leads-0-003-ohm/252179341098 (http://www.ebay.de/itm/24-Kt-GP-M-to-M-Banana-to-Banana-10-AWG-Low-Resistance-Leads-0-003-ohm/252179341098)
Awesome14,
this claim is taken from your ebay ad:
Our testing indicates that under 100% uptime at 10M Ohm load, long-term drift is < 1.0ppm/120 days.
One device you are nulling against, the Fluke 732A exhibits a transfer uncertainty of 6ppm over one year.
How come you know your references are within +-2ppm of the SI-Volt, when your master reference can drift 6ppm per year?
Regards
try
Well, this is at least for me the funniest thread on eevblog, may be the funniest metrology thread of all times.I loled quite hard, when I saw this and read the first ten pages[emoji23]
Well, this is at least for me the funniest thread on eevblog, may be the funniest metrology thread of all times.
It is quite evident that few, if any, of his customers have the capability to verify his claims, since they are unwilling to pay the bucks up front to have their equipment certified by a real calibration lab, they are depending on the 'claims' of this person who refuses to provide verifiable NIST data on his equipment and end products. A thousand accolades from customers who cannot verify his or their claims is worthless. His method of construction is pathetic and should be an embarrassment but to his ego, it is an advantage. I for one will not be a customer of this farce. Now if he really wants to 'prove' his product's claims, he needs to put up a number of them to an independent lab to be tested against proven 732A/B arrays and his specifications actually verified, once that is done and his claims are at least proven, perhaps the laughter and derision will abate but until something like that actually happens.....his claims are unproven, unverified and not to be believed.
We welcome anyone to come to our facility and view our traceability documents and calibration procedures. Our products live up to all of our claims! And we have two separate calibration labs.
Among our customers are two US Military defense contractors
We welcome anyone to come to our facility and view our traceability documents and calibration procedures. Our products live up to all of our claims! And we have two separate calibration labs.
That is a nice offer but being thousands of miles away I'm not able to come, maybe you could just post some pics here?
Or a video tour on youtube?
That would be best and could potentially boost your sales.
Among our customers are two US Military defense contractors, a University physics lab, and a calibration lab.Now I am really scared!
Fluke Calibration does not permit its certs to be duplicated. Posting one online would violate that.
Fluke Calibration does not permit its certs to be duplicated. Posting one online would violate that.
Please provide a link or similar documenting this policy of Fluke's as I can find no trace of this.
No calibration lab that is accredited to ISO/IEC 17025 allows certificates to be reproduced "EXCEPT IN FULL" without approval. He should be able to provide a full calibration report at his discretion.
Directly from ISO/IEC 17025 "It is recommended that laboratories include a statement specifying that the test report or calibration certificate
shall not be reproduced except in full, without written approval of the laboratory. "
Just an update: Long term testing indicates 15-month drift to be ~6ppm, and 30-month drift about ~9ppm.
Contrary to what one might imagine, many of my buyers mention this thread and the collection of critics who refuse to even test the device. Apparently the criticism is practically inert. It generates indignation in others, which makes them more prone to purchase from me.
So, thanks for all the free publicity!
Fluke Calibration does not permit its certs to be duplicated. Posting one online would violate that.
Please provide a link or similar documenting this policy of Fluke's as I can find no trace of this.
Yep, still runs on god juice.
Maybe the defense contractors can protect you against those murder attempts you mentioned. And since youre educated in chemistry: maybe you can find out whats wrong with your brain chemistry.I have been nothing but honest with the members on this board. I have 1.5 million readers in 165 nations now.
Quote: "I am a very capable individual. I have 1.4 million readers in 155 nations! I must remain anonymous, because I've experienced 15 murder attempts in the last 3 years, all because of what I write."
Your behavior is utterly shameful. But you don't know when to blush. I forgive you anyway. Just try to do better in the future.No calibration lab that is accredited to ISO/IEC 17025 allows certificates to be reproduced "EXCEPT IN FULL" without approval. He should be able to provide a full calibration report at his discretion.
Directly from ISO/IEC 17025 "It is recommended that laboratories include a statement specifying that the test report or calibration certificate
shall not be reproduced except in full, without written approval of the laboratory. "
So the team of engineers involved at Calibratory labs (That would be Mr Awesome14 and Buddy Jesus at the least) must have something to hide? :-DD
I refuse to believe that. An omniscient engineer, even Christ almighty, has nothing to hide.
I don't want to reproduce the full document. Life is based on trust. People who find it difficult to trust do so because they are untrustworthy.Fluke Calibration does not permit its certs to be duplicated. Posting one online would violate that.
Please provide a link or similar documenting this policy of Fluke's as I can find no trace of this.
No calibration lab that is accredited to ISO/IEC 17025 allows certificates to be reproduced "EXCEPT IN FULL" without approval. He should be able to provide a full calibration report at his discretion.
Directly from ISO/IEC 17025 "It is recommended that laboratories include a statement specifying that the test report or calibration certificate
shall not be reproduced except in full, without written approval of the laboratory. "
Why would you be afraid of that? I'm not trying to scare anyone. I merely want people to know that my product is trusted by those who have critical tasks to perform. And if they didn't find a problem, there probably isn't one to find.Among our customers are two US Military defense contractors, a University physics lab, and a calibration lab.Now I am really scared!
Since this thread has never been about real metrology, why not to move it to "General Chat" or similar board?
The one I purchased a few years back, ended up in the trash.You should have had it recal'ed. They don't go bad. I question why anyone on this board would toss one. It doesn't make any sense. I've always serviced all our products.
I really appreciate the offer. But the testing you want to do has already been done many times, by myself and by others. We do recal the units, so we get a pretty good idea of long-term drift.Just an update: Long term testing indicates 15-month drift to be ~6ppm, and 30-month drift about ~9ppm.
Contrary to what one might imagine, many of my buyers mention this thread and the collection of critics who refuse to even test the device. Apparently the criticism is practically inert. It generates indignation in others, which makes them more prone to purchase from me.
So, thanks for all the free publicity!
I’m one of the critics early on in this thread.
I tell you what. If you send me one I’ll do a fair assessment of it and put it through the paces on a calibrated meter for 30-days. I’ll even send it back if you’d like.
I’ll be completely neutral in the review I give. You’ve literally got nothing to lose.
May be Awesome14 should include my pictures in to his ebay listing.
So that we never forget the "awesome" workmanship, here are three more pictures that I took a while back,
when I first got his "standard".
Fine for a prototype, but not for a finished product.May be Awesome14 should include my pictures in to his ebay listing.
So that we never forget the "awesome" workmanship, here are three more pictures that I took a while back,
when I first got his "standard".
hello everyone who derides his (awesome14's) construction techniques:-
what would you say about this *fellow*'s construction ?
regards.
"Even though this thread is here, I still get plenty of buyers off eevblog. Now that's saying something!"
It says that there's no such thing as bad publicity ;)
I don't want to reproduce the full document. Life is based on trust. People who find it difficult to trust do so because they are untrustworthy.
Let's apply your own words hereI really appreciate the offer. But the testing you want to do has already been done many times, by myself and by others. We do recal the units, so we get a pretty good idea of long-term drift.Just an update: Long term testing indicates 15-month drift to be ~6ppm, and 30-month drift about ~9ppm.
Contrary to what one might imagine, many of my buyers mention this thread and the collection of critics who refuse to even test the device. Apparently the criticism is practically inert. It generates indignation in others, which makes them more prone to purchase from me.
So, thanks for all the free publicity!
I’m one of the critics early on in this thread.
I tell you what. If you send me one I’ll do a fair assessment of it and put it through the paces on a calibrated meter for 30-days. I’ll even send it back if you’d like.
I’ll be completely neutral in the review I give. You’ve literally got nothing to lose.
Any reviewer that wants to be taken seriously cannot allow the manufacturer to know the review is being done. For one thing, the manufacturer might send a hand-picked specimen. For another, unless the reviewer's reputation is valuable it's easy to bribe him. You have nothing to lose if I offered you $500 to fudge the report. But if I have no knowledge the review is being conducted, then it must be an honest review.
So, no offense. It just wouldn't be credible if I sent you a standard to test.
Your skepticism is a reflection of yourself. Not everyone lies all the time. But it's obviously what you expect, because that's what you would do.
And, most calibration labs have the same policy. We do.
Actually, most cal labs don't care who you show your cert to. You paid for it.
certify |?s??t?f??|
verb (certifies, certifying, certified) [ with obj. ]
attest or confirm in a formal statement: the profits for the year had been certified by the auditors | [ with clause ] : the Law Society will certify that the sum charged is fair and reasonable.
• chiefly Brit. officially recognize as possessing certain qualifications or meeting certain standards: scenes of violence had to be cut before the film could be certified | (as adj.certified) : a certified accountant.
• officially declare insane.
I really appreciate the offer. But the testing you want to do has already been done many times, by myself and by others. We do recal the units, so we get a pretty good idea of long-term drift.Just an update: Long term testing indicates 15-month drift to be ~6ppm, and 30-month drift about ~9ppm.
Contrary to what one might imagine, many of my buyers mention this thread and the collection of critics who refuse to even test the device. Apparently the criticism is practically inert. It generates indignation in others, which makes them more prone to purchase from me.
So, thanks for all the free publicity!
I’m one of the critics early on in this thread.
I tell you what. If you send me one I’ll do a fair assessment of it and put it through the paces on a calibrated meter for 30-days. I’ll even send it back if you’d like.
I’ll be completely neutral in the review I give. You’ve literally got nothing to lose.
Any reviewer that wants to be taken seriously cannot allow the manufacturer to know the review is being done. For one thing, the manufacturer might send a hand-picked specimen. For another, unless the reviewer's reputation is valuable it's easy to bribe him. You have nothing to lose if I offered you $500 to fudge the report. But if I have no knowledge the review is being conducted, then it must be an honest review.
So, no offense. It just wouldn't be credible if I sent you a standard to test.
Even the holy grail of impartial reviews, Consumer Reports, doesn’t buy every product they review. (Otherwise they couldn’t afford to review expensive items such as cars.)
Even the holy grail of impartial reviews, Consumer Reports, doesn’t buy every product they review. (Otherwise they couldn’t afford to review expensive items such as cars.)
Do you have a source for that claim? A quick search turns up this statement on the CR web site: "It’s worth noting that Consumer Reports doesn’t accept paid advertising or free test samples—and is therefore not swayed by manufacturers."
Sure, he's selling a poorly made device with inflated specs on Ebay, but he's far from the only one doing so.
Even the holy grail of impartial reviews, Consumer Reports, doesn’t buy every product they review. (Otherwise they couldn’t afford to review expensive items such as cars.)
Do you have a source for that claim? A quick search turns up this statement on the CR web site: "It’s worth noting that Consumer Reports doesn’t accept paid advertising or free test samples—and is therefore not swayed by manufacturers."
Cars and other big ticket items are generally loaned by (and in some cases rented from) dealers.
Even the holy grail of impartial reviews, Consumer Reports, doesn’t buy every product they review. (Otherwise they couldn’t afford to review expensive items such as cars.)
Do you have a source for that claim? A quick search turns up this statement on the CR web site: "It’s worth noting that Consumer Reports doesn’t accept paid advertising or free test samples—and is therefore not swayed by manufacturers."
Cars and other big ticket items are generally loaned by (and in some cases rented from) dealers.
That is not what their web site says:
https://www.consumerreports.org/cars-how-consumer-reports-tests-cars/ (https://www.consumerreports.org/cars-how-consumer-reports-tests-cars/)
"Most automotive publications evaluate cars and trucks lent to them by manufacturers. But we purchase every vehicle we test from a dealership, just like you do."
Let me change the context of your statement a little bit:
“Sure, he’s a rapist and a murderer, but it’s not like he’s the *only* one. Therefore we should no longer prosecute these crimes. Right?”
Just because other people do something wrong doesn’t mean the people we catch should be given a pass.My point here is that you're not just "catching" him, you're taking the opportunity to abuse him because you feel it's ok since he's selling a product you don't feel is any good. It's trashy, unprofessional, and frankly beneath the standards of behavior I see elsewhere on this forum. Online bullying and abuse is never ok.
Also, your summary isn’t quite right. People didn’t start making fun of the “manufacturer” until he started spouting all the crazy religious stuff.That's irrelevant. There's no excuse for behaving that way even if someone seems crazy or amateurish. He's not trying to deceive anyone here or do harm to anyone, he's just less experienced and knowledgeable than you are and has some beliefs you don't agree with.
There’s absolutely nothing wrong with criticizing the performance and assembly of a product, which is how the thread started.I agree, but that's also irrelevant since it's not what we're talking about. For your reference, we're talking about the part after that where people started to call the guy a nut, fraud, or even pledging to put him out of business by undercutting his prices.
And frankly, if you think the way we reacted to Awesome14 was extreme, well, you haven’t been on the Internet very long, because if anything most of the replies were mild and restrained by comparison.
Snip ...
I am going to provide a much simplified and shortened summary of the thread below, then my conclusions about the discussion.
For labeling the speaker here I'm going to use "A" for the device manufacturer and "E" for the various board members commenting as a group.
E: "Hey guys, does this Ebay voltage standard look any good? The specs seem way too good for the price. I've ordered one to have a look."
E: "I don't think it can work, those specs would be really hard to meet at that price."
E: "I got it and tried it, doesn't seem bad so far... WHOA, LOOK AT THE INSIDES! THIS GUY IS AN AMATEUR WITH POOR SKILLS! RIDICULE HIM!"
A: "Hey guys, it does work according to spec. Thanks for your interest."
E: "Are you kidding me? You obviously are a kid in your parents' basement, and this thing can't possibly work because X, Y, and Z."
Snip ...
Just an update: Long term testing indicates 15-month drift to be ~6ppm, and 30-month drift about ~9ppm.
Contrary to what one might imagine, many of my buyers mention this thread and the collection of critics who refuse to even test the device. Apparently the criticism is practically inert. It generates indignation in others, which makes them more prone to purchase from me.
So, thanks for all the free publicity!
Note:Although not specified on the TI datasheet drift normal is expressed as ppm per square root of time. Recognizing that the drift reduces with time.
Snip ...
I am going to provide a much simplified and shortened summary of the thread below, then my conclusions about the discussion.
For labeling the speaker here I'm going to use "A" for the device manufacturer and "E" for the various board members commenting as a group.
E: "Hey guys, does this Ebay voltage standard look any good? The specs seem way too good for the price. I've ordered one to have a look."
E: "I don't think it can work, those specs would be really hard to meet at that price."
E: "I got it and tried it, doesn't seem bad so far... WHOA, LOOK AT THE INSIDES! THIS GUY IS AN AMATEUR WITH POOR SKILLS! RIDICULE HIM!"
A: "Hey guys, it does work according to spec. Thanks for your interest."
E: "Are you kidding me? You obviously are a kid in your parents' basement, and this thing can't possibly work because X, Y, and Z."
Snip ...
This is a pretty accurate summary of this thread on the EEVblog.
This thread could have gone completely differently IF:
1) The device was built with better workmanship, including a PCB. At the time the thread started you could buy PCBs for a $1.50 each, now they are less.
2) The specifications matched the performance of the parts used. Do not claim that the part is equal to performance of the industry leaders, Fluke 732A/B etc.
3) Questions were answered properly. Example I buy the best grade of the REF102c and then further select the best parts from the lot for the premium references, I sell two grades the best parts are in the premium grades.
4) The datasheet says that the worst drift occurs in the first 168 hours. I take care of this by burning them in.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/calibratory-d-105-dc-precision-voltage-reference-standard/?action=dlattach;attach=362128;image)
5) It is difficult to correct the temperature coefficient for the REF102. Here is the datasheet:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/calibratory-d-105-dc-precision-voltage-reference-standard/?action=dlattach;attach=362122;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/calibratory-d-105-dc-precision-voltage-reference-standard/?action=dlattach;attach=362124;image)
6) I suspect that the Calibratory D-105 has some form of tempco adjustment, for the simple reason that the teardown pictures show a thermistor and two pots. I assume that one put is to trim the voltage, the second the tempco.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/calibratory-d-105-dc-precision-voltage-reference-standard/?action=dlattach;attach=226300;image)
7) This reply from page 29 of this thread:Just an update: Long term testing indicates 15-month drift to be ~6ppm, and 30-month drift about ~9ppm.
Contrary to what one might imagine, many of my buyers mention this thread and the collection of critics who refuse to even test the device. Apparently the criticism is practically inert. It generates indignation in others, which makes them more prone to purchase from me.
So, thanks for all the free publicity!
Presents a reasonable number for long term drift, (sample size unknown), after a burn-in period.
Note: that contradicts the information in the eBay listing.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/calibratory-d-105-dc-precision-voltage-reference-standard/?action=dlattach;attach=362126;image)
As a minimum the eBay list should be updated.
Note:Although not specified on the TI datasheet drift normal is expressed as ppm per square root of time. Recognizing that the drift reduces with time.
Regards,
Jay_Diddy_B
This is my 1500th post:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/calibratory-d-105-dc-precision-voltage-reference-standard/?action=dlattach;attach=362130;image)
hello,
looks like if +ve correction is done between 0 and 25 degC and -ve correction is done between 25 and 50 degC
(via thermister / heatpipe) the net tempco can be improved - at least between 0 and 50 degC.
assuming the zero-crossing is somewhere near 25 degC.
regards and comments required.
There have been no less than 20 competent, in depth reviews done by others of our 10V standard, covering from 1 month to two years duration. Since none of them were solicited, I can rely that they are objective, and all of them confirmed my own findings. In order to properly evaluate the device over a 1-month period, you really have to work on the 100mV scale of a meter, which means you need a DC standard like the Fluke 732B. I had one customer complain that the standard was 40uv high, 2ppm out of spec! It turned out later that his 732B had drifted and my standard was actually within spec.I really appreciate the offer. But the testing you want to do has already been done many times, by myself and by others. We do recal the units, so we get a pretty good idea of long-term drift.Just an update: Long term testing indicates 15-month drift to be ~6ppm, and 30-month drift about ~9ppm.
Contrary to what one might imagine, many of my buyers mention this thread and the collection of critics who refuse to even test the device. Apparently the criticism is practically inert. It generates indignation in others, which makes them more prone to purchase from me.
So, thanks for all the free publicity!
I’m one of the critics early on in this thread.
I tell you what. If you send me one I’ll do a fair assessment of it and put it through the paces on a calibrated meter for 30-days. I’ll even send it back if you’d like.
I’ll be completely neutral in the review I give. You’ve literally got nothing to lose.
Any reviewer that wants to be taken seriously cannot allow the manufacturer to know the review is being done. For one thing, the manufacturer might send a hand-picked specimen. For another, unless the reviewer's reputation is valuable it's easy to bribe him. You have nothing to lose if I offered you $500 to fudge the report. But if I have no knowledge the review is being conducted, then it must be an honest review.
So, no offense. It just wouldn't be credible if I sent you a standard to test.
You just got done telling another poster how honest you are and how you don’t lie or cheat. So if you’re that honest you clearly wouldn’t send a hand picked specimen or try to bribe me, right?
Besides, let’s say you see an order come through from Dave Jones, whom you know is a serious, well respected reviewer of test gear. What’s to stop you from shipping him a hand picked unit? Nothing.
And while it’s true everyone has a price (and I mean everyone, anyone that denies it just isn’t being honest with themselves), for some people that price is pretty high. Besides, as someone who’s been doing electronics and test equipment reviews for magazines and websites for years, I *would* have something to lose if it got out I wrote a fake review for $500. Most other serious reviewers feel the same way. (My reputation is pretty important to me; I wouldn’t compromise it for anything less than 9 figures.)
At any rate, review samples being provided by manufacturers is how the world works. Even the holy grail of impartial reviews, Consumer Reports, doesn’t buy every product they review. (Otherwise they couldn’t afford to review expensive items such as cars.)
This is also how products are reviewed before they are officially released (that includes everything from test gear to computers to cars).
Now, if the publication (or individual) in question runs advertising or sponsored content for a manufacturer of a product they review, I might give a bit less credibility to said reviewer (unless they have a history of not being influenced by their advertising department).
So, I can even swing this back the other way: If I were to pay for your product, out of my own pocket, to review, it would actually be *less* impartial than if you sent me one for free. Why? Cognitive bias. People who shell out money for something don’t want to feel as if they’ve been ripped off, so they will ignore the weak points and problems of something to justify their purchase. They end up convincing themselves the product is great. You see this all the time in the world of high end audio.
When I do reviews, I always tell my readers that a product was provided by the manufacturer for review (and I almost always send the products back or give them away, which I also disclose).
So, no offense but your objections aren’t really reasonable. In fact, it makes me think you’re afraid to have somebody impartially review the unit and are just coming up with BS excuses.
My latest buyer from here was on 10/9/2017. I encourage you to show some respect for yourself, and not to call others liars without some evidence to substantiate the claim. It's a matter of common decency and etiquette. Do you want others to think you're low class? As a man I have my word. I have not broken it. But you call it into question!"Even though this thread is here, I still get plenty of buyers off eevblog. Now that's saying something!"
It says that there's no such thing as bad publicity ;)
Consider the remote possibility that it maybe is a lie.
The same with the claims that god was co-designer. Or the customer list.
I actually misread the cert. Since Fluke Calibration encouraged me to display it with personally identifying info obfuscated--which was my actual objection--I have posted it. Don't sell yourself short by selling other people short. All things are pure to the pure, Suspicion is the device of a guilty mind.I don't want to reproduce the full document. Life is based on trust. People who find it difficult to trust do so because they are untrustworthy.
And there we have it. You say you have all the documentation. Then you offer an excuse for not showing it. When that excuse is demolished, you say "trust me". That is not how honest people behave. You can say what you like, you can claim to be "upright", you can imprecate the character of your critics, but when you wheedle out of every opportunity that is offered to you to substantiate your claims it is, at the very least, highly suspicious.
My original take on you was that you were either naive or inexperienced, then it changed to thinking that you were a little strange and a bit self-deluded and now it has changed again. With your constant twisting and turning to avoid actually answering your critics and sceptics, while still claiming that you have proof, there is now only one reasonable conclusion left, that you are acting deliberately. I believe that you have no proof and you know that the minute you produced what you actually have then the whole house of cards would come tumbling down and you would be publicly revealed for what you are.
The big problem as they would say in Scotland is that Awesome 14 's mouth is all brown and he is away with the fairies, nothing more needs to be added, that construction technique is so awful is is actually funny, worthy of the Marx Brothers, or Buster Keaton get intoduced to a soldering iron...I'll tell you what. I'll ship you the parts to make the board, and you show the community how much better you can do!
OK, I took some advice from that IT guy who summed up the thread. Why does my standard outperform the raw regulator IC? It's all in the datasheet, if anyone actually read the whole thing. Long-term drift: the IC is aged 1-2 years. That brings the drift way down. We age the entire assembly, so any other components that experience long-term drift benefit.
Why is the temp drift lower than the raw IC? A 100kohm NGT is wired into the trim circuit. When the temp rises, the resistance drops, and the output gain is decreased. The IC drifts up with temperature, so it evens out.
But that's not enough. Because the thermistor has to be a bit different for each individual IC, because temp drift is not constant between specimens. The manufacturer rates temp drift over a huge range. I'm only concerned with 17-26C. The drift is fairly flat there, and so is the NGT.
A pot used as a rheostat in parallel with the thermistor adjusts the resistance delta of the thermistor with temperature, which is all we really care about (how much does it change). It is the quantity of change that determines how much the TC compensates the output gain.
The absolute resistance in the TC circuit is not critical. By adjusting the rheostat, the resistance delta of the NGT decreases or increases with temp, giving less or more tempco. The copper heat pipe keeps the delta temp similar between the IC and the NGT.
Without it, calibration of the tempco would not be possible. The device would oscillate because of the tempco. The exact thickness of the heat pipe is critical. If it's too thin, it doesn't transfer enough heat. If it's too thick, it acts as a heat sink, which throws off the thermodynamic balance of the entire assembly.
Unlike that other guy who made the standards and then quit, I have a much faster way to test the tempco. Then, I only require the environmental chamber to test the final result.
Why is it so cheap? I am not ambitious. I make 1500% profit on the parts, after eBay and Paypal fees. I don't need to sell them for more! I'd feel guilty!
How can you do what no one else seems to be able to do for the price? I persist, I believe in myself, and I apply scientific principles in new ways. That's it. And, I received much welcome advice from a very intelligent MSEE, without whom the entire project would have failed.
No one is going to get a surprising result unless they try something new.
Why is the soldering so bad? Because it's made with a perf board. There are no solder pads. With traces I get stray capacitance, which causes oscillation.
How can you make such exaggerated claims? A: How would anyone know my claims are exaggerated if they haven't tested the device?
Why are you such an idiot? Well, I truly know nothing. But my IQ is a standard deviation of 4 from the mean. I don't consider myself intelligent. But compared to other humans I guess I am.
How can you show your face on eevblog? I have nothing to be ashamed of. I can show my face anywhere. I'd prefer to make a product that works right with bad soldering than one that has neat solder joints and doesn't work.
Why are your long-term drift figures so unbelievable? I just age the ICs for a long time.
How can you claim +-2ppm accuracy? I make the claims that are justified by experimental evidence. I haven't been able to get +-1ppm accuracy. So, I stick with +-2ppm.
Do you have any new specs? Yes, thank you for asking. Typical standard deviation of the output of 250 samples at 100PLC is 500nV. That means 99% of the readings are within 1.5uV of each other.
If you are willing to spend 800.00USD on a calibration from Fluke Calibration, why do scam everyone? I don't think anyone who intends to scam actually requires certified instruments.
Why did you allow everyone to call you a liar, and only after that post the cal cert? To piss you off!
Why don't you just leave us to our prejudices? Because ignorant is no way to go through life. I see a lot of technical skills on this board, but that's about where it ends. A man is measured by the kindness he displays to others.
Why is your design so stable? Mostly because I put it in a box. That prevents changes in thermal EMF caused by air currents across the IC pins. Read the datasheet!
Why should we accept you here? You have the mind of a child! I'm not asking for acceptance. I could never hope to attain unto the examples set by the other members on this board. I'd be happy if you just based your criticisms on experimental evidence rather than idle speculation. I mean, you use experimental evidence in every other area.
Are you mentally ill? I'm a creative genius. Mental illness seems to go along with that quite frequently. My prose have been compared to those of James Joyce and Virginia Woolf, two authors who were considered by many to be mad.
and by the way,
using a perfboard probably cuts down on warping of the board due to thermal gradients,
which can easily be simulated by using finite element thermal analysis,
sort of like drilling *MANY* holes in the board, instead of drilling them around the LTZ1000 in
some published pcb designs.
regards.
......................
Hello Awesome14,
actually it was me - in person - that revised latest datasheet of the LTZ1000A - and all comments were approved, typos removed and errors modified by engineers from LTC and this became DS LTZ1000 rev. E 11/15-2015.
Slot holes are effective for certain footprints (e.g. LTC6655 LS8) - some LTC videos prove this, and I discussed this also with a leading, eminent specialist in buried zeners - and his conclusion was that after many years monitoring slot holes on the LTZ1000 - they did not see any statistical effect and they stopped using slot holes more than one decade ago ... - those boards w/o slot-holes were shipped to CERN and other leading institutions.
Certain people that did not understand the way the LTZ1000(A) works and should be implemented - copied the black magic over and over ... - also the chinese do ... - very funny for insiders to see this happen
During all my observations I never spotted Fluke, Keysight, Keithley using slot-holes - Last couple of years I have invested many hundreds of hours in reading many articles, app. notes, from LTC a.m.o. ... about LTZ1000A - and if such design note from LTC would exist - I would probably have known this - and after more than 25 years as professional design engineer - I do not believe in VooDoo solutions ...
So I leave it up to you to proof - that I am wrong - by showing such design note from LTC discussing the effect of slot holes to improve the stability of the LTZ1000(A), i said in particular case for LTZ1000(A) ...
Good luck !
cheers
butterfly
This ap note applies to all LT references, although the example of slotting is applied to a different IC. The paper doesn't specifically exclude the LTZ1000. But the latest data sheet might be newer. Then LT should correct AN-82. http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/application-note/an82f.pdf (http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/application-note/an82f.pdf)
so the board stess "voo-doo" *does* apply to dip packages then, as used in calibratory d-105?
Since the LTZ1000(A) is a metal package, it is excluded. Here it is:
Hello VoltNuts - I spoke today with a main responsible of our national accredited Lab (CE approval) and apparently to export a DC source to europe in the way it is presented by Awesome14 - the manufacturer and export/import company - both are fully liable to comply with CE legislation (CE compliance, RoHS, etc. ... ).
So where are the documents that grant such export license to europe ... ?
best regards
Butterfly
Hello Awesome14 (Tom K.) - I am still waiting on you to show us that particular design note ... or went your B.S. generator out of service lately ... ?
http://www.atrixnet.com/bs-generator.html (http://www.atrixnet.com/bs-generator.html)Hello Awesome14,
actually it was me - in person - that revised latest datasheet of the LTZ1000A - and all comments were approved, typos removed and errors modified by engineers from LTC and this became DS LTZ1000 rev. E 11/15-2015.
...
So I leave it up to you to proof - that I am wrong - by showing such design note from LTC discussing the effect of slot holes to improve the stability of the LTZ1000(A), i said in particular case for LTZ1000(A) ...
Good luck !
cheers
butterfly
But the standard is designed to be operated in a controlled environment not to exceed 50% RH, and with a temp between 17-26C.
I haven't done any testing at RH above 50%, because I work in a standards lab with a controlled environment (RH 30-40%). I wasn't aware there was a market for high-humidity, low-cost standards. But, in any event, the unit is not designed to operate above 50% RH or above 26C.
From my friend volt nut I have the indication of around 0.3-0.4 ppm/% rH for the REF102 in plastic package.
Time constant of epoxy packages with humidity is around 3-7 days reaction time.
So my suggestion would be to do verification measurements in february / march when there is low humidity and in august / september with high humidity.
From a 5 V Reference (LT1027CN, 2 samples) I get a humidity coefficient of around 0.5ppm/%rH
Hello Tom K. (awesome14) - Oooh it was you working on this LTZ1000 reference ... ? We observed this ad with your great soldering artwork on Flebay - "used briefly for a prototype" :-DD :-DD :-DD
https://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-3458A-Voltage-Reference-Board-REV-A-03458-66509-LTZ1000/263337867308?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D49452%26meid%3Dfa21f476378b41c3b41e43bb691f0928%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D263337867308&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%253Af8c65513-cfbf-11e7-8aec-74dbd18045d9%257Cparentrq%253Ae55276b115f0ab6ac789a120fffb06cc%257Ciid%253A1 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-3458A-Voltage-Reference-Board-REV-A-03458-66509-LTZ1000/263337867308?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D49452%26meid%3Dfa21f476378b41c3b41e43bb691f0928%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D263337867308&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%253Af8c65513-cfbf-11e7-8aec-74dbd18045d9%257Cparentrq%253Ae55276b115f0ab6ac789a120fffb06cc%257Ciid%253A1)
A true craftsman at work ... :palm: :palm: :palm:
But the standard is designed to be operated in a controlled environment not to exceed 50% RH, and with a temp between 17-26C.
This is the first time, as far as I am aware, that you have specified this humidity limitation and, having just checked your ebay sale offer, there is no mention of that limitation there. I find that rather odd, to not mention a basic, critical design parameter. Heck, even my TV comes with that information clearly supplied.
You say:I haven't done any testing at RH above 50%, because I work in a standards lab with a controlled environment (RH 30-40%). I wasn't aware there was a market for high-humidity, low-cost standards. But, in any event, the unit is not designed to operate above 50% RH or above 26C.
Didn't it ever occur to you that: 1) Buyers of cheap voltage references aren't likely to be people running standards labs with highly controlled environments (if you can afford the air-con you can afford the 732), 2) that 50% RH is quite average for much of the temperate world, indeed it's most definitely not a "high-humidity" environment.
Well, I didn't solder on the board. I just dropped it onto some pins.I asked my Dad where he read the ap note on the LTZ1000, and he didn't remember. He only mentioned it in passing over the telephone when I was working on a LTZ1000 reference. But I did mock up a LTZ1000 reference and push on the IC a bit, and the voltage output changes.
Now, for Lars graphs; Good, solid work. I'm happy to have the info. If the unit was designed to operate at over 50% RH, I'd have a problem. But the standard is designed to be operated in a controlled environment not to exceed 50% RH, and with a temp between 17-26C.
Hello Tom K. (awesome14) - Oooh it was you working on this LTZ1000 reference ... ? We observed this ad with your great soldering artwork on Flebay - "used briefly for a prototype" :-DD :-DD :-DD
https://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-3458A-Voltage-Reference-Board-REV-A-03458-66509-LTZ1000/263337867308?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D49452%26meid%3Dfa21f476378b41c3b41e43bb691f0928%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D263337867308&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%253Af8c65513-cfbf-11e7-8aec-74dbd18045d9%257Cparentrq%253Ae55276b115f0ab6ac789a120fffb06cc%257Ciid%253A1 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-3458A-Voltage-Reference-Board-REV-A-03458-66509-LTZ1000/263337867308?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D49452%26meid%3Dfa21f476378b41c3b41e43bb691f0928%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D263337867308&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%253Af8c65513-cfbf-11e7-8aec-74dbd18045d9%257Cparentrq%253Ae55276b115f0ab6ac789a120fffb06cc%257Ciid%253A1)
A true craftsman at work ... :palm: :palm: :palm:
Relative humidity
Both Fluke (8060A,...) & Keysight (U125XB,...) warrant in their manuals that their handheld DMMs function at a relative humidity up to 80% ... so probably your toys were addressing the market of the high end DMMs such as 8508 - 3458A - 1281 and alike ?
Here is two screen shoots from excel with about two years of measurements of two D-105, two SVR-T and one VREF10. As reference I have an REF102CM (metal case) with temperature compensation that has been powered for 17 years. The VREF10 is compensated with the value 1.3ppm/C I got from the manufacturer. The others are not compensated. The room temperature has varied between 19 and 29 °C.
In the beginning I did a humidity test as can be seen in the graphs. Both D-105 and SVR874 were in a box with a large amount of silica gel prepared to get about 80-85%RH. As can be seen from the quick drop the box was not very tight. The VREF10 was in a plastic bag with a silica gel bag.
The D-105 and SVR874 were continuously powered about the first year. The last year it has been in a shelf in a box between measurements so now with a humidity of 35%RH in the room but above 50%RH most of the last two months the references probably have acquired humidity. This can be clearly seen on the D-105's as they dropped about 5ppm the last week when powered in the about 35%RH environment.
The VREF10 has only been powered about 15 minutes at every measurements. The original batteries are still ok!
Lars