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Offline Nuno_pt

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Kalibrierlabor - Calibration LAB
« on: September 15, 2016, 11:24:34 am »
Morning all,

While looking at some stuff relating to Calibrations, I've found this company in Germany "kalibrierlabor.de", does anyone know about this company?

Since I don't speak German, from what I can see on the Accreditation PDF < http://kalibrierlabor.de/urkunde.pdf > they use an HP3458, Datron 4700 (from what I see this is only good till 6 1/2 digits), Fluke 5220, but nothing else.

So with curiosity I've ask a quote to my K2000, and they quote it at 117.81€ with VAT, according to ISO 9000 (I can upload the PDF of the quotation if anyone want to take a look), but what I can't see is if they provide the data before and after the calibration and if that is on the price.

The prices seem a little on the low side.

Any input on this?


Nuno
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Offline e61_phil

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Re: Kalibrierlabor - Calibration LAB
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2016, 01:01:51 pm »
The uncertainties seems to be quite high.


"Zu jeder Kalibrierung erhalten Sie einen Kalibrierschein nach DIN ISO 9000 ff mit einem Protokoll der Messwerte."

They provide the data.
 
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Offline Nuno_pt

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Re: Kalibrierlabor - Calibration LAB
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2016, 01:07:00 pm »
e61_phil, that was what I seeing and trying to figure out.

Why the uncertainties are so high? This can be related to the Datron and Fluke?
Nuno
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Offline Kleinstein

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Re: Kalibrierlabor - Calibration LAB
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2016, 02:26:08 pm »
The uncertainties come from the instruments and how often and where they send there instruments for verification. If they are more into checking lower precision instruments at a lower precision instrument for a low price, this might be good enough. In Industry not many instruments need to be that precise.
 
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Offline Nuno_pt

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Re: Kalibrierlabor - Calibration LAB
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2016, 02:48:26 pm »
Just to compare I ask Tektronix in Germany a quote for the K2000, they quote 285€ with VAT for Cal + return shipping to Portugal, and 50€ for Data only.

So if I take about 35€ that is what should cost for Tek to send the K2000 to Portugal, the Tek price is 250€ with VAT + 50€ for the data = 300€.

Making the same math  117.81€ + 70€ (one shipping to Germany, one return shipping to Portugal) = 177.81€, so 177.81€ with VAT and Cal data.

The difference is 122.19€, would this make bigger difference?

I know you've to pay the brand of Tek, and of course low uncertainties, etc...

From the uncertainties I guess that for hobby use and 6.5d DMM this could be a low cost solution, but for the big boys 7.5, 8.5d DMM it's better go with the low uncertainties and with the brand.
Nuno
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Offline carl_lab

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Re: Kalibrierlabor - Calibration LAB
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2016, 06:22:36 pm »
If you are looking for calibration labs in germany you can try these:

http://www.f-e-s.de/
http://www.trescal.com/de_DE/location/region/1

I know them for years, both are reliable and have a fair price level.

Calibration for K2000/HP34401A/HP34410A costs about 90 EUR + tax (adjustment costs extra).
AFAIK they use HP3458A, Fluke 5700 etc. reference.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 03:39:43 pm by carl_lab »
 
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Offline Kjelt

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Re: Kalibrierlabor - Calibration LAB
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2016, 08:59:30 pm »
If you are looking for calibration labs in germany you can try these:

http://www.f-e-s.de/
http://www.trescal.com/de_DE/location/region/1

I know them for years, both are reliable and have a fair price level.

Calibration for K2000/HP34401A/HP34410A cost about 90 EUR + tax.
AFAIK they use HP3458A, Fluke 5700 etc. reference.
Thanks for that! If trescal will calibrate for around that price I would be tempted to calibrate one of my Keithleys. Will ask for a quote.
 

Offline Nuno_pt

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Re: Kalibrierlabor - Calibration LAB
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2016, 09:02:12 pm »
Hi Diligent,

Here in Portugal it's not Volt-nut country only about 2 or 3, and all of them send it abroad, I've check with a Portuguese Lab, ISQ < http://metrologia.isq.pt/LaboratorioElectrico.aspx > they have quoted the K2000 at 550€ with VAT, and no data, they are an NGO like you said.

The national institute doesn't service the general public, only companies and other Labs, and most NGO's are from other companies, like the Navy lab, Air Force Lab, National Comm Regulator (like FCC), etc....

So here not much chance, since this business is small, compare to US, and other countries.

For Resistance I can be ok, since I've a friend that is working on a factory of VitrOhm Resistors near my house, and they have Decades in a climatize room, but for the rest I'm dead.

So I was just let this go for awhile, but I start reading about Calibration and have seen a reference of this company, so in curiosity I ask them for quote, when I receive the 117€, I thought that this was not a bad price, but the uncertainties are a little on the high side, but could be good for hobbyists in EU, so I them quote Tek in Germany, they ask 285€ + 50€ for data, then carl_lab come up with this two companies, and now let's see what is the cost, maybe this topic can help some guys in EU looking to get the meters calibrate, and don't know any lab, here can be a list of some prices.

About the uncertainties, for hobby use would make a difference to send to Tek or to one of this companies with little higher uncertainties, but low cost? Maybe so.

For Volt-nut certainly not.

Tomorrow I'll ask for a quote on the two companies, I see that Trescal has a Lab in Madrid, let's see.
Nuno
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Offline Nuno_pt

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Re: Kalibrierlabor - Calibration LAB
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2016, 09:05:51 pm »
Thanks for that! If trescal will calibrate for around that price I would be tempted to calibrate one of my Keithleys. Will ask for a quote.

Kjelt, can you post here the info about the price. (Cal + data)

Nuno
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Offline Kjelt

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Re: Kalibrierlabor - Calibration LAB
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2016, 09:21:00 pm »
Sure will do ;)
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Kalibrierlabor - Calibration LAB
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2016, 08:08:50 am »
I need more information  :(
Does it need to be an accredited calibration or a non-accredited? What is the difference?  :-//
The data should it be to some standard like ISO or just a paper with the measured calibration data ?

Do I understand it correctly that a calibration will entail that the meter will now be "adjusted" and pretty accurate again or is it just a measurement and paper to tell you how much inaccurate the meter is against a standard?
Both are possible AFAIK.
 

Offline acbern

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Re: Kalibrierlabor - Calibration LAB
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2016, 08:24:51 am »
Personally, I would think the price of 117 is actaully very low, and a higher accuracy is not expectable. I even doubt they do an adjustment for that. Calibration does NOT mean adjustment. So be carefull what you get.
 
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Offline Nuno_pt

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Re: Kalibrierlabor - Calibration LAB
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2016, 09:14:10 am »
acbern,
The message to get the quote is already fill with this "Guten Tag, bitte senden Sie mir ein Angebot zur Kalibrierung des folgenden Gerätes: Keithley 2000 (Digitalmultimeter).", and they send me the file that is attach here, and they talk on adjustment on several pages of the website, according to google translate, but you can take a look and tell us, see here http://kalibrierlabor.de/pages/kalibrieren , and here are the uncertainties http://kalibrierlabor.de/urkunde.pdf .

When I ask Tek for a quote they send 285€ (this should be around 250€) + 50 for data, but they also don't refer to adjustment, will they do it? I don't know also.

I know the uncertainties can be a little on the high side, but one question here is would this be good enough for hobbyist use? Of course not for Metrology.

Yes, Calibration doesn't mean adjustment, I'll try Tek to see if the offer is for Cal only or it include adjustment also.



 
Nuno
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Offline e61_phil

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Re: Kalibrierlabor - Calibration LAB
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2016, 09:54:29 am »
"Stellt sich während der Kalibrierung heraus, dass Ihr Gerät außerhalb der zulässigen Toleranz liegt, wird es von uns wenn möglich justiert. Dieser Service kostet bei uns nichts extra!"

If the meter is out of spec, they will adjust it for free if possible.
 
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Offline carl_lab

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Re: Kalibrierlabor - Calibration LAB
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2016, 06:54:02 am »
They will not adjust it unless:
    ...
    • The meter falls outside of the yearly spec minus an optional guard-band.
Which guard band do you mean?
We adjust if the value is above 70% of specs, even above 100%.
Customer will get 2 calibration certificates ("as is" and "as left"), so he can decide, if additional action is needed.
 

Offline acbern

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Re: Kalibrierlabor - Calibration LAB
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2016, 08:19:10 am »
But is this adjustment really for free? It is hard to imagine a K2000 being measured, and in case of non-compliance, adjusted, and then the whole thing (cal data generation after adjustement) being done again for 100 euros.
 

Offline e-doc

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Re: Kalibrierlabor - Calibration LAB
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2016, 09:07:40 am »
No, it's not for free.
2 calibrations cost 2 calibrations. Plus adjustment.
Adjustment procedure for 34401A/410A /K2000 takes about double time as calibration only.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2016, 09:50:29 am by e-doc »
 

Offline carl_lab

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Re: Kalibrierlabor - Calibration LAB
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2016, 07:46:12 pm »
Thanks for explanation, DM!  :-+
 

Offline acbern

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Re: Kalibrierlabor - Calibration LAB
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2016, 01:25:11 am »
No, it's not for free.
2 calibrations cost 2 calibrations. Plus adjustment.
Adjustment procedure for 34401A/410A /K2000 takes about double time as calibration only.

Sure, expectable, but this is what the guys from Kalibrierlabor seem to say. From other labs I have got quotes with a factor of 2 including adjustement after first cal.

The other thing about calibrating precision gear (such as the 3458A) using a 5720/30 is that these calibrators are at or beyond their limits. There is a nice article from Fluke about this and guardbanding to somewhat resolve this issue.
The proper way to solve this imo is more manual work, e.g. using voltage standards and dividers (752) with tighter tolerance for the DC calibration; thermal transfer standards for AC, precision resistor standards for R and so on. I would always prefer this over an automated calibration, if the lab does it well. Unfortunatelly these days, few do this a all.
 

Offline e61_phil

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Re: Kalibrierlabor - Calibration LAB
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2016, 09:13:21 pm »
I asked kalibrierlabor.de to measure my DIY 10V Standard. It will cost 60€, but the lowest uncertainty is 10ppm :(
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Kalibrierlabor - Calibration LAB
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2016, 09:52:46 pm »
Just a question i know that the si standard meter is kept somewhere in a vault.
What was used as the standard for Voltage before 1990 when the josephson junction was degined, is that some chemical cell somewhere?
Can we build something similar?
« Last Edit: September 20, 2016, 09:55:44 pm by Kjelt »
 

Offline zlymex

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Re: Kalibrierlabor - Calibration LAB
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2016, 09:31:08 am »
Just a question i know that the si standard meter is kept somewhere in a vault.
What was used as the standard for Voltage before 1990 when the josephson junction was degined, is that some chemical cell somewhere?
Can we build something similar?

Standard cells were used before JJ Arrays.
http://digicoll.manoa.hawaii.edu/techreports/PDF/NBS84.pdf
 
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Offline Kjelt

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Re: Kalibrierlabor - Calibration LAB
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2016, 10:03:57 am »
Thanks, I had hoped it would be relatively simple to create such a standard Weston cell but reading that pdf we have to deal with very poisonous chemicals which are hard to obtain. Oh well another idea down the drain  :-[
Quote
Only four materials are required. These are mercury, cadmium,
sulfuric acid, and water, all of which may be puri
fied by distillation. To these four materials may
be added a fifth, CdSO4 8/3 H 2 O, to avoid preparing
it from cadmium and sulfuric acid; it may be puri
fied by repeated crystallizations from conductivity
water.
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Kalibrierlabor - Calibration LAB
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2016, 12:03:43 pm »
I'm playing with a saturated Weston cell at the moment:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/muirhead-std-and-ref-cells-all-catalogue-info-uploaded-!-(ayce)/msg1030098/?topicseen#msg1030098

The conclusions so far:

- Initial 0.01% tolerance
- They make very good thermometers and need a good temperature controlled enclosure... or one with high thermal mass and an accurate thermometer.

Chris
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 12:16:06 pm by Gyro »
Regards, Chris

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