Author Topic: Fixed vs Adjustable frequency Rubidium oscillator.  (Read 6565 times)

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Offline tkamiyaTopic starter

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Fixed vs Adjustable frequency Rubidium oscillator.
« on: June 25, 2020, 05:48:01 am »
It is my understanding that there are two kind of Rubidium Oscillator:

1)  10 MHz OCXO is phase locked through division to Rubidium that is locked. Output is derived directly from 10MHz (for example)  These types are of fixed frequency output.
2)  OCXO is phase locked through division to Rubidium, but OCXO is at frequency other than 10MHz.  Frequency needed are synthesized through DDS.

Advantage of 1 is low phase noise.
Disadvantage of 1 is that output frequency is fixed.

Advantage of 2 is output frequency is adjustable.
Disadvantage of 2 is relatively high phase noise owing to ultimate frequency being result of DDS.

My understanding is PRS10, FRS, LPRO, LPRO101 are type 1
On the other hand, FA5650, and FA5680 are type 2.  I know there are few more.

I am hard time understanding the merit of type 2.  High phase noise is basically a very fast frequency instability.  When one Chooses rubidium, goal is high stability. 

I even have a fixed frequency 10MHz frequency standard made with FA-5650A.  Why is this????
To use as a lab standard, is this sufficient??
 

Offline ArthurDent

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Re: Fixed vs Adjustable frequency Rubidium oscillator.
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2020, 02:42:42 pm »
When you say ‘fixed frequency’ you apparently referring to an output of only 10 Mhz, not that the output frequency is fixed, i.e., not adjustable. All Rb standards have to be able to adjust the servo loop to trim the VCO used to generate the frequency output. The Rb cell acts as a narrow band filter to control a voltage controlled oscillator of some sort.

You could still use an Rb oscillator that outputs 10 Mhz and feed that to a DDS circuit to get whatever frequency you want. Bottom line is what are you using the output for? If you need some frequency other than 10 Mhz you are probably going to have to live with DDS at some point in the frequency generating string and you can decide whether to get a Rb unit with the DDS built in; or use a 10 Mhz Rb unit and build the DDS circuitry yourself.
 

Offline tkamiyaTopic starter

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Re: Fixed vs Adjustable frequency Rubidium oscillator.
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2020, 04:28:17 pm »
No, I mean fixed at a given frequency and  I know VCO or VXO is always involved.

I've only seen fixed frequency one at 5MHz, 10MHz, 15MHz, 20MHz, and 100MHz.  That's understandable, as some lab may require 5MHz standard.  If someone is working with optical network, much higher one may be preferred.  They are designed for one frequency OUTPUT only.

I understand, for very special applications, flexible/adjustable ones would be handy.  But still, increased amount of jitter is involved.  But as a lab standard, what is the benefit?  As I said, I have a commercially made frequency standard for 10MHz that includes variable frequency type SET at 10MHz.  Since this is a lab standard, it was likely designed to synchronize equipment.  Why would someone choose this verses native 10MHz fixed type?

 

Offline David Hess

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Re: Fixed vs Adjustable frequency Rubidium oscillator.
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2020, 05:39:56 pm »
Obviously they would chose a variable frequency output if a fixed output was not available in the frequency they needed.

And most equipment which can operate off of an external reference phase locks a low phase noise internal reference to the external reference anyway.  All of my timer/counters do this.

GPS receivers also do what you describe.  Most use an internal DDS driven by a fixed frequency reference to generate timing signals which results in timing jitter but a very few lock their internal frequency reference to GPS producing jitter free timing data.
 

Offline tkamiyaTopic starter

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Re: Fixed vs Adjustable frequency Rubidium oscillator.
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2020, 09:49:05 pm »
I've only seen few circuits but the ones I saw (counters), it was detecting a presence of signal at external reference input, and if there is one, switch over to that signal.  There were no attempt at phase locking internal ones.  At least in my lab, external lab standards are much more accurate than internal ones; although, they may have more jitters. 

What counters have you seen that does locking internal by external thing??  I once wondered about this, too...
 

Online syau

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Re: Fixed vs Adjustable frequency Rubidium oscillator.
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2020, 10:53:51 pm »
I've only seen few circuits but the ones I saw (counters), it was detecting a presence of signal at external reference input, and if there is one, switch over to that signal.  There were no attempt at phase locking internal ones.  At least in my lab, external lab standards are much more accurate than internal ones; although, they may have more jitters. 

What counters have you seen that does locking internal by external thing??  I once wondered about this, too...

Stanford Research SR620
 

Offline tkamiyaTopic starter

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Re: Fixed vs Adjustable frequency Rubidium oscillator.
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2020, 11:04:00 pm »
That's a top-of-the-line counter.  For that kind of money, I'd expect it to make toast if I set parameters right.

Kidding aside, that's a counter that has resolution of 20ps.  I'd expect they go extra mile to eliminate all possibilities of instability.  I want one!
 

Online 5065AGuru

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Re: Fixed vs Adjustable frequency Rubidium oscillator.
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2020, 04:34:19 am »
The main advantage of what you call a type 2 is driven mainly by cost and also by size. With the VCXO oscillator of say 50.255XX MHz directly driving the SRD in the cell you eliminate the multiplier stages that would have been required to get the 5 or 10MHz OCXO up to say 60Mhz. since the VCXO frequency is high enough to drive the DDS directly you get an elegant system with minimal parts count that can be stuffed into a smaller package. Either type as a lab standard can have comparable Allan Deviation performance and short term frequency stability, and if locked to GPS the long term stability is good too!

Cheers,

Corby
 

Offline tkamiyaTopic starter

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Re: Fixed vs Adjustable frequency Rubidium oscillator.
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2020, 02:24:42 am »
Corby,

Having your opinion means a lot to me.  Thank you very much for responding.

Currently, I don't posses an ability to measure phase noise.  Getting a decent and consistent Adev has been a constant (and illusive) challenge as well.  I have put them on hold as I was starting to obsess on it.

I often hear, the type 2, as I call it, has a larger phase noise that uses such as multiplying 10MHz to 10GHz, they are unsuitable.  Yet, you say it is usable as a lab standard.  In my lab, I have equipment such as 2GHz signal oscillator, 26GHz S/A, and various counters INCLUDING HP53132A, and 5370B.  HP5370B, as you know has 20pS resolution in time interval resolution.  Would type 2 (as I call it) be suitable for reference in such cases?  I'm sure signal generators and S/A would be fine, as they won't be multiplying.  But 5370 concerns me as it is capable of such a fine interval measurement. 

Could you help me understand the limitation of type 2 rubidium oscillators?  (I don't know what else to call it!)  Compare to GPSDO, that also have quite a short term noise, how bad are they really?  Is my concern warranted or overblown?

Thank you.
 

Online 5065AGuru

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Re: Fixed vs Adjustable frequency Rubidium oscillator.
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2020, 04:13:12 am »
Well the short answer is "I don't know"!
I think this might be a good experiment to try.
Setup your 5370B and feed it a stable signal while using its internal reference.
Then try the 1 and 2 type Rubidium as the reference and see if the counts show any difference.
For some applications I know from experience that for short sampling times (below 10 Sec.) a good Quartz like a 10811-60109 will give the best results (a 5061A/B or 5065A with the 10811 retrofit in open loop). Above 10 Sec. I'd use my 5065A (in operate mode).
The PR10 and LPRO are I believe what you would call type 1 and both give good performance.
www.ke5fx.com has some nice noise and stability comparisons between the various Rubidium units!

Cheers,

Corby
 

Offline tkamiyaTopic starter

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Re: Fixed vs Adjustable frequency Rubidium oscillator.
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2020, 09:22:13 am »
Corby,

There lays the problem.  I have a lot of "standards", but I have no idea how stable they are.  I have been trying to measure Adev of them well over a year by now but have yet to achieve a reliable result.  Their must be a systemic problem somewhere in my system.  tvb has been trying to help me identify it.  Bob has been coaching me on them.  I started obsessing on it, so I had to put that project on hold.

I have a box made with 05071-60219 that came out of HP5071A, and I have 10811-60109 (I believe) in HP105B.  They work.  That's all I can say about them.  All of my standards are second-hand purchase and none of them has been accurately characterized.  They are quite old as well, so I have no reason to believe their performance is reflective of the original specifications.  I literally have a rack full of OCXO to GPSDO, to Rb to Cs.  Except for Hydrogen Maser, I have everything.  Yet I can trust none.

If I can have JUST ONE trust worthy and well characterized standard, my life will be a lot easier.  It's like trying to measure the size of ants by rubber ruler.
 

Offline tkamiyaTopic starter

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Re: Fixed vs Adjustable frequency Rubidium oscillator.
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2020, 11:44:01 pm »
Just wanted to thank everyone for their contribution and education!
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: Fixed vs Adjustable frequency Rubidium oscillator.
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2020, 12:15:17 am »
What counters have you seen that does locking internal by external thing??  I once wondered about this, too...

My Racal-Dana 1992 does.
 

Online JohnPi

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Re: Fixed vs Adjustable frequency Rubidium oscillator.
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2020, 05:35:32 pm »
And th HP53132A, 53131A can be set to automatically switch to an external 10 MHz.
 

Offline tkamiyaTopic starter

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Re: Fixed vs Adjustable frequency Rubidium oscillator.
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2020, 06:02:05 pm »
That, I knew....  I have two HP53132A.

What's odd is, in auto select reference mode, it will switch from internal to external.  But never external to internal.  There must be a reason for it but I find that annoying.
 

Offline retrolefty

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Re: Fixed vs Adjustable frequency Rubidium oscillator.
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2020, 08:14:16 pm »
Corby,

There lays the problem.  I have a lot of "standards", but I have no idea how stable they are.  I have been trying to measure Adev of them well over a year by now but have yet to achieve a reliable result.  Their must be a systemic problem somewhere in my system.  tvb has been trying to help me identify it.  Bob has been coaching me on them.  I started obsessing on it, so I had to put that project on hold.

I have a box made with 05071-60219 that came out of HP5071A, and I have 10811-60109 (I believe) in HP105B.  They work.  That's all I can say about them.  All of my standards are second-hand purchase and none of them has been accurately characterized.  They are quite old as well, so I have no reason to believe their performance is reflective of the original specifications.  I literally have a rack full of OCXO to GPSDO, to Rb to Cs.  Except for Hydrogen Maser, I have everything.  Yet I can trust none.

If I can have JUST ONE trust worthy and well characterized standard, my life will be a lot easier.  It's like trying to measure the size of ants by rubber ruler.

 As it's been said, person with one watch always knows the time, person with two (or many) never quite sure.
 

Offline tkamiyaTopic starter

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Re: Fixed vs Adjustable frequency Rubidium oscillator.
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2020, 10:53:46 pm »
However, a person with just one watch never will know when it's entirely off!  So there!!

As a junior time nuts, I'm tired of hearing the line.

I collect physical watches, including 120 year old kind, too.  That one stays within a second a day.  A mechanical 120 year old watch!
 

Offline ArthurDent

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Re: Fixed vs Adjustable frequency Rubidium oscillator.
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2020, 12:07:05 pm »
However, a person with just one watch never will know when it's entirely off!  So there!!

As a junior time nuts, I'm tired of hearing the line.

I collect physical watches, including 120 year old kind, too.  That one stays within a second a day.  A mechanical 120 year old watch!

I just like the complexity and detail inside some watches that the average person would never see.
 

Offline tkamiyaTopic starter

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Re: Fixed vs Adjustable frequency Rubidium oscillator.
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2020, 12:50:05 pm »
That's a beautiful Ulysse Nardin!  I wasn't aware it made pocket watches.  Can I see the dial?

I like unique and odd watches.  I had some usual, famous, and popular brands but I didn't have that much attraction to them once I had them.  So I sold those and bought a bit of test gear....  My current favorite is Corum Bubble and the aforementioned railroad watch.  I am somewhat sad that USA used to make such a fine piece of watches and marble of ingenuity, and none of that is left now.

I have a local watch maker taking care of my pieces.  After a over-haul, the railroad watch keeps +/- 1 sec a day.  I mentioned it to him, and he smiled and said, "I hate it when that happened".  We had a good laugh.
 

Offline notfaded1

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Re: Fixed vs Adjustable frequency Rubidium oscillator.
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2020, 06:49:21 pm »
Man Corby your super 5065A with the 10811 retrofit in open loop with the filter... if only these units were around any more!  You scored some really good hardware that just isn't around anymore!  If you ever want to sell anything let me know please.  :-+

Bill
.ılılı..ılılı.
notfaded1
 

Offline ArthurDent

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Re: Fixed vs Adjustable frequency Rubidium oscillator.
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2020, 10:24:57 pm »
tkamiya - "That's a beautiful Ulysse Nardin!  I wasn't aware it made pocket watches.  Can I see the dial?"

This Ulysse Nardin has a plain navy gun metal case and is a combined chronograph/pocket watch which accounts for the complexity of the movement. I got it about 50 years ago after the previous owner had dropped it and it stopped working. He was going to chuck it in the trash but I said I'd take it if they were going to throw it out and he just gave it to me! Here is a photo of the face plus a couple of other watches, including a low end USSR commemorative watch that works okay.
 

Offline kbrill

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Re: Fixed vs Adjustable frequency Rubidium oscillator.
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2020, 07:28:50 pm »
tkamiya:

While of no great importance Efratom FRK series were not uncommonly made for 3.579 MHz NTSC & 4.433 MHz Pal frequencies . I briefly owned an NTSC version packaged in a utilitarian oversized enclosure and on more than one occasion declined to purchase others .

Ken

 

Offline tkamiyaTopic starter

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Re: Fixed vs Adjustable frequency Rubidium oscillator.
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2020, 04:06:17 am »
ArthurDent:

Are you going to get your watch fixed?  I have a local watch maker who can do that sort of things.


Kbrill:

I'd love to hear more about your story.  What went wrong?
 

Offline Johnny B Good

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Re: Fixed vs Adjustable frequency Rubidium oscillator.
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2021, 12:19:01 pm »
Obviously they would chose a variable frequency output if a fixed output was not available in the frequency they needed.

And most equipment which can operate off of an external reference phase locks a low phase noise internal reference to the external reference anyway.  All of my timer/counters do this.

=====snipped=====


 As does my own much modified "Toy" FY6600-60M AWG with its CQE 10MHz OCXO (plus 3N502 clock multiplier) inspired by Arthur Dent's own OCXO upgrade postings into the FY6600 topic thread.

 Arthur had chosen a simple mechanical switching of external/internal references but concerns (possibly unfounded) that the inevitable glitches this would introduce onto the FPGA 's 50MHz clock input might cause lock ups, led me to use the external 10MHz reference to injection lock the internal 10MHz OCXO to avoid the possibility of such lock ups (glitchless, smooth transitions to and from the external reference).

 I'd totally missed the even better PLL solution in my researching frequency injection locking solutions until after I'd successfully implemented my own frequency injecting module :palm: The only reason I've not re-implemented the external reference input module as a PLL controller is simply because the injection circuit works so well and ICBA to rip it out and start over :)

 Both methods have the distinction of automating the change-over and eliminate an unnecessary mechanical change-over switch. When the existing internal reference is already a high quality low phase noise oscillator (in this case, the original cheap 'n' nasty SMD 50MHz XO most certainly wasn't!), injection or phase locking it to an external low phase noise atomic standard (GPSDO or RFS) is the obvious "no-brainer" solution - surely all such test gear with an external reference socket implements a PLL or injection locking methodology?

 The FE5680A based diy project videos that pollute YouTube have just the same long term frequency stability as the Efratom LPRO 101 units but their choice of DDS to generate the required locked to the XO reference hyperfine transition frequency of the rubidium vapour cell does introduce unwanted spurs and jitter on the XO output making it unsuited for use directly as a reference for use by GHz rated transverters unlike that of the LPRO101's 10MHz output. However, the use of a "Clean up" VC(OC)XO phase locked to the FE5680A's 10MHz output neatly solves that issue.

 The complicated, DDS free, method used by the Efratom design to generate the hyperfine rubidium transition frequency from a 20MHz VTXO doesn't allow an exact frequency match, requiring a tiny 'bending' of the rubidium vapour cell's frequency output via the C field control which is a necessary 'evil' to fine tune all of these secondary atomic standards regardless of their design.

 Even though in principle the FE5680A could eliminate such fine tuning, courtesy of the DDS technology, they still require the use of the C field for fine tuning the rubidium hyperfine transition frequency - rubidium vapour lamps and cells are at the mercy of the buffer gasses used and their behaviour in regard of temperature and pressure, making them 'secondary standards' in more ways than just the obvious one of not being caesium upon which the SI second unit of time is based upon.

 As for generating frequencies other than the 10MHz output from a RFS, the obvious solution is to use a good quality DDS based AWG or RF generator equipped with an external 10MHz reference input socket to phase lock their on-board low phase noise VC(OC)XO to, which permits even the direct use of an FE5680A, spurs and all.

 I'm currently in the middle of my own Efratom LPRO101 based RFS project (namely housing it in an instrument case sized enclosure to allow me to tightly control its baseplate temperature (and, ultimately add barometric pressure compensation) using a PWM controlled air re-circulation fan (unventilated enclosure design). I've been on yet another quest for best practical methods on PWM fan speed control which has proved, as with so many previous internet research efforts, to be more like (to mix metaphors) a hunt to pull hens' teeth from out of the jaws of Unicorns. As for the question of RFS baseplate temperature control, forget it! There's absolutely fuck all to be found on that subject! >:( >:( >:(

 Anyway, discovering this topic thread was simply the side effect of my internet search for ideas and enlightenment on how to achieve the best possible stability from my RFS project. You have the staggering lack of interest on the part of DIYers building their own rubidium lab frequency references from used surplus RFS kit to the best possible standard over and above simply acquiring one to plonk into a case and sit on a handy shelf in their workshop/lab to thank (or curse) for my presence here. >:D

 John
John
 

Offline HB9EVI

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Re: Fixed vs Adjustable frequency Rubidium oscillator.
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2021, 01:12:57 pm »
Like already reported, the FA-5650A is a noisy devices; first reports about its uselessness for microwave applications date back to about 2010 from KA7OEI, to my memory he also shows a way how to clean up the signal with a rubidium locked oscillator
 


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