Author Topic: How much would you pay for a assembled 10V reference?  (Read 1665 times)

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Offline The Soulman

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How much would you pay for a assembled 10V reference?
« on: June 12, 2019, 07:57:43 pm »
Because my hand assembled nicely aged and highly beloved dual lt1021 voltage reference is missing in action thanks to DHL.  :--

edit: arrived safely after two weeks. :)

I'm looking at building a new one, or better two, or..
To ease assembly a nice pcb will be designed.

The focus will be:

* "low cost"
* good long-term stability (buried zener either way)
* can be shipped as a letter (or book) max height 30mm
* metal housing
* on-board temp. sensor


Similar devices are:

Doug Malone's voltage standard:
http://shop.voltagestandard.com/product.sc;jsessionid=070D2648EEAA7B01A9A816457C444946.p3plqscsfapp004?productId=6&categoryId=1)

and

AB -precision DVR1 voltage standard:
https://www.ab-precision.de/products/electrical-standards/


Is there an interest in such a product? and if so what features/specs would you like and in what price range?
« Last Edit: June 15, 2019, 10:15:09 am by The Soulman »
 

Online RandallMcRee

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Re: How much would you pay for a assembled 10V reference?
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2019, 09:02:59 pm »
I think a lot would also depend on the type of calibration that you can offer. Can you specify?

For example, Doug Malone specifies an in-cal 3458a and the burn-in time. He also allows for a re-calibration after some amount of time.

 

Offline bob91343

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Re: How much would you pay for a assembled 10V reference?
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2019, 09:06:25 pm »
I have five 10V reference DIP ICs selected by a switch.  They are very good, run off a wall wart, mounted on the bench.

Have you looked into that sort of thing?  I think they are very accurate; certainly they all correlate very well with my HP3456A.
 

Offline The Soulman

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Re: How much would you pay for a assembled 10V reference?
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2019, 09:35:36 pm »
I think a lot would also depend on the type of calibration that you can offer. Can you specify?

For example, Doug Malone specifies an in-cal 3458a and the burn-in time. He also allows for a re-calibration after some amount of time.

It depends, at the moment I could offer 0,05% initial accuracy, if I could sell one hundred devices I'd purchase a traceable fluke 732
and null against that.  :)

 

Online maginnovision

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Re: How much would you pay for a assembled 10V reference?
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2019, 09:39:05 pm »
.05% is sort of useless for a reference. Handheld meters have better accuracy. How long would you age them? Would you include your data from ageing? Would you measure and include noise specifications? For comparison I paid about €200 for an ltz1000 ref aged >10000 hours, have data from that time, noise specs, calibration data(including copy of Cal cert from device used for Cal) and 1 free calibration.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2019, 09:44:39 pm by maginnovision »
 

Offline The Soulman

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Re: How much would you pay for a assembled 10V reference?
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2019, 09:56:28 pm »
I have five 10V reference DIP ICs selected by a switch.  They are very good, run off a wall wart, mounted on the bench.

Have you looked into that sort of thing?  I think they are very accurate; certainly they all correlate very well with my HP3456A.

Yes, but I like a more finished product that could easily shipped around.
As per my original plan, let other voltnuts measure my reference (to a better accuracy) and ship it back to me so I could compare it with my
"gold-standard" and measure the difference.

How would you know your DIP ICs and 3456 aren't all of by a couple volts?  :)

 

Offline Macbeth

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Re: How much would you pay for a assembled 10V reference?
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2019, 10:09:41 pm »
I will start the bids. I would pay a tenner for a 10 volt ref, and sick squid for a 6.8 volt ref. This is The Queens GBP here, not that EURO/USD rubbish.  :-DD
 

Offline The Soulman

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Re: How much would you pay for a assembled 10V reference?
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2019, 10:12:02 pm »
.05% is sort of useless for a reference. Handheld meters have better accuracy. How long would you age them? Would you include your data from ageing? Would you measure and include noise specifications? For comparison I paid about €200 for an ltz1000 ref aged >10000 hours, have data from that time, noise specs, calibration data(including copy of Cal cert from device used for Cal) and 1 free calibration.


That is a pretty good deal, is that a board or a completed ref including housing and connectors?
Also 10.000 hours ageing is a pretty long time, something I'm not able to offer on the short term.

Can you post a link were these are available?
 

Offline Magnificent Bastard

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Re: How much would you pay for a assembled 10V reference?
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2019, 10:28:31 pm »
.05% is sort of useless for a reference. Handheld meters have better accuracy. How long would you age them? Would you include your data from ageing? Would you measure and include noise specifications? For comparison I paid about €200 for an ltz1000 ref aged >10000 hours, have data from that time, noise specs, calibration data(including copy of Cal cert from device used for Cal) and 1 free calibration.

The initial accuracy of the reference is nearly irrelevant.  The uncertainty of the calibration is what is important.  In other words, the output could be 10.050012V, but this value is known to (say) +/-5ppm at a k-factor of 3 (which is ~99.97% uncertainty).  5ppm would be difficult to achieve with a non-heated reference that is not kept in an oven at a continuous temperature-- and even with that you are limited by the output 1/f noise <= 1Hz.  You might be able to get an LM399 (heated) reference to hold still for 2ppm, but below that you would need to change to an LTZ1000.  So, it kind of depends on what you want to do with this reference-- if it is just for standard jelly-bean handheld DMMs, then the specs can be relaxed-- if is for calibration of a 6+1/2 digit DMM, then the 2ppm device will be needed, and for better than 6+1/2 digits, then an LTZ1000 will be needed.

Remember, the artifact (voltage reference) must have at least 4X less uncertainty than the instrument you are calibrating with it.
 

Offline Terry01

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Re: How much would you pay for a assembled 10V reference?
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2019, 10:29:44 pm »
I think that's a tough market your trying to break into there buddy considering what is already on offer for a very reasonable $65!
I hope it works out for you but I think it will be a very hard sell.
Sparks and Smoke means i'm nearly there! 8)
 

Offline Magnificent Bastard

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Re: How much would you pay for a assembled 10V reference?
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2019, 10:37:00 pm »
I think that's a tough market your trying to break into there buddy considering what is already on offer for a very reasonable $65!
I hope it works out for you but I think it will be a very hard sell.

I think that the hardware is nearly irrelevant.  The hardware only has to be good enough to transfer the value of a metrology-grade reference (732A/B/C at very low uncertainty), and maintain that calibration for at least 30 days through shipping, temperature swings, etc.  What you are buying is the calibration-- the hardware is only a necessary evil.  A calibration of about 0.5ppm will set you back about $200, and Fluke's 0.06ppm calibration will be around $550 (plus shipping and insurance).  So, a $100 would be a good price for 1ppm, and maybe $50 to $75 for a 2ppm calibration (not including the hardware).  There is no way around the economic math on this.
 

Offline tautech

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Re: How much would you pay for a assembled 10V reference?
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2019, 10:40:22 pm »
I'm looking at building a new one, or better two, or..
To ease assembly a nice pcb will be designed.

The focus will be:

* "low cost"
* good long-term stability (buried zener either way)
* can be shipped as a letter (or book) max height 30mm
* metal housing
* on-board temp. sensor


Similar devices are:

Doug Malone's voltage standard:
http://shop.voltagestandard.com/product.sc;jsessionid=070D2648EEAA7B01A9A816457C444946.p3plqscsfapp004?productId=6&categoryId=1)

and

AB -precision DVR1 voltage standard:
https://www.ab-precision.de/products/electrical-standards/


Is there an interest in such a product? and if so what features/specs would you like and in what price range?
This one too from member IanJ:
https://www.ianjohnston.com/index.php/onlineshop/handheld-precision-digital-voltage-source-v2-detail

Not low cost but as always you get what you pays for.  :P
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline The Soulman

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Re: How much would you pay for a assembled 10V reference?
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2019, 10:49:08 pm »
I will start the bids. I would pay a tenner for a 10 volt ref, and sick squid for a 6.8 volt ref. This is The Queens GBP here, not that EURO/USD rubbish.  :-DD

That sick squid sounds tempting but I'm looking for something around/below the 50 euro area, all depends
on the specs/features people come up with.

If it is just me I'd go for the LT1021DMH-10 again, to minimize long-term drift leave the trim pin not connected, so no trimming and/or temperature compensation.
Instead something like a lm35 temperature sensor on the same board close to the v-ref to keep track of temperature and made available on a separate output.
Power input would be a common barrel jack, that would accept 15 to 30 volts dc, current consumption below 10mA.

Calibration is the main reason for me to have started this whole journey, I currently don't own anything traceable or even very accurate by specs.
 

Offline Terry01

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Re: How much would you pay for a assembled 10V reference?
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2019, 11:01:12 pm »
I will start the bids. I would pay a tenner for a 10 volt ref, and sick squid for a 6.8 volt ref. This is The Queens GBP here, not that EURO/USD rubbish.  :-DD

That sick squid sounds tempting but I'm looking for something around/below the 50 euro area, all depends
on the specs/features people come up with.

If it is just me I'd go for the LT1021DMH-10 again, to minimize long-term drift leave the trim pin not connected, so no trimming and/or temperature compensation.
Instead something like a lm35 temperature sensor on the same board close to the v-ref to keep track of temperature and made available on a separate output.
Power input would be a common barrel jack, that would accept 15 to 30 volts dc, current consumption below 10mA.

Calibration is the main reason for me to have started this whole journey, I currently don't own anything traceable or even very accurate by specs.

Save yourself a PITA buddy and buy one of the few on offer already from various tried and tested means?  :)
Sparks and Smoke means i'm nearly there! 8)
 

Offline The Soulman

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Re: How much would you pay for a assembled 10V reference?
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2019, 11:07:06 pm »
I think that's a tough market your trying to break into there buddy considering what is already on offer for a very reasonable $65!
I hope it works out for you but I think it will be a very hard sell.

(I assume you are referring to Doug Malone's voltage reference)

It's not the type of device I would buy only because of the housing and connectors.
And him being in the US shipping costs to the EU might be prohibitive, also he is out of stock at the moment just like
the last couple of times I've check.
 

Offline The Soulman

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Re: How much would you pay for a assembled 10V reference?
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2019, 11:16:01 pm »
I will start the bids. I would pay a tenner for a 10 volt ref, and sick squid for a 6.8 volt ref. This is The Queens GBP here, not that EURO/USD rubbish.  :-DD

That sick squid sounds tempting but I'm looking for something around/below the 50 euro area, all depends
on the specs/features people come up with.

If it is just me I'd go for the LT1021DMH-10 again, to minimize long-term drift leave the trim pin not connected, so no trimming and/or temperature compensation.
Instead something like a lm35 temperature sensor on the same board close to the v-ref to keep track of temperature and made available on a separate output.
Power input would be a common barrel jack, that would accept 15 to 30 volts dc, current consumption below 10mA.

Calibration is the main reason for me to have started this whole journey, I currently don't own anything traceable or even very accurate by specs.

Save yourself a PITA buddy and buy one of the few on offer already from various tried and tested means?  :)

What would be the fun in that.  :)
If there is already a good supplier of this type of thing (50 euro ballpark) in the eu area please let me know, because I couldn't find one.

Anyway whatever I come up with will be made better than Awesome!  :-DD  :box:
 

Online maginnovision

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Re: How much would you pay for a assembled 10V reference?
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2019, 11:29:55 pm »
.05% is sort of useless for a reference. Handheld meters have better accuracy. How long would you age them? Would you include your data from ageing? Would you measure and include noise specifications? For comparison I paid about €200 for an ltz1000 ref aged >10000 hours, have data from that time, noise specs, calibration data(including copy of Cal cert from device used for Cal) and 1 free calibration.

The initial accuracy of the reference is nearly irrelevant.  The uncertainty of the calibration is what is important.  In other words, the output could be 10.050012V, but this value is known to (say) +/-5ppm at a k-factor of 3 (which is ~99.97% uncertainty).  5ppm would be difficult to achieve with a non-heated reference that is not kept in an oven at a continuous temperature-- and even with that you are limited by the output 1/f noise <= 1Hz.  You might be able to get an LM399 (heated) reference to hold still for 2ppm, but below that you would need to change to an LTZ1000.  So, it kind of depends on what you want to do with this reference-- if it is just for standard jelly-bean handheld DMMs, then the specs can be relaxed-- if is for calibration of a 6+1/2 digit DMM, then the 2ppm device will be needed, and for better than 6+1/2 digits, then an LTZ1000 will be needed.

Remember, the artifact (voltage reference) must have at least 4X less uncertainty than the instrument you are calibrating with it.

I don't know what those numbers have to do with anything, he said .05%(500ppm) not 0.05ppm. Unless I'm wrong about that. If .05ppm I'd buy one.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2019, 11:31:37 pm by maginnovision »
 

Offline Terry01

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Re: How much would you pay for a assembled 10V reference?
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2019, 11:39:06 pm »
I will start the bids. I would pay a tenner for a 10 volt ref, and sick squid for a 6.8 volt ref. This is The Queens GBP here, not that EURO/USD rubbish.  :-DD

That sick squid sounds tempting but I'm looking for something around/below the 50 euro area, all depends
on the specs/features people come up with.

If it is just me I'd go for the LT1021DMH-10 again, to minimize long-term drift leave the trim pin not connected, so no trimming and/or temperature compensation.
Instead something like a lm35 temperature sensor on the same board close to the v-ref to keep track of temperature and made available on a separate output.
Power input would be a common barrel jack, that would accept 15 to 30 volts dc, current consumption below 10mA.

Calibration is the main reason for me to have started this whole journey, I currently don't own anything traceable or even very accurate by specs.

Save yourself a PITA buddy and buy one of the few on offer already from various tried and tested means?  :)

What would be the fun in that.  :)
If there is already a good supplier of this type of thing (50 euro ballpark) in the eu area please let me know, because I couldn't find one.

Anyway whatever I come up with will be made better than Awesome!  :-DD  :box:

Something you make yourself will be awesome for sure.

Message Doug and he'll let you know when there will be more available and the costs. He'll give you a shout when yours is ready if you decide to go with it. I had to wait on one but it wasn't that long and costs to the UK was bearable. I got the DMM check but the 10v ref for $65 isn't a bad deal at all.

Good luck however you go buddy.  :)
Sparks and Smoke means i'm nearly there! 8)
 

Offline The Soulman

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Re: How much would you pay for a assembled 10V reference?
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2019, 11:56:04 pm »
.05% is sort of useless for a reference. Handheld meters have better accuracy. How long would you age them? Would you include your data from ageing? Would you measure and include noise specifications? For comparison I paid about €200 for an ltz1000 ref aged >10000 hours, have data from that time, noise specs, calibration data(including copy of Cal cert from device used for Cal) and 1 free calibration.

The initial accuracy of the reference is nearly irrelevant.  The uncertainty of the calibration is what is important.  In other words, the output could be 10.050012V, but this value is known to (say) +/-5ppm at a k-factor of 3 (which is ~99.97% uncertainty).  5ppm would be difficult to achieve with a non-heated reference that is not kept in an oven at a continuous temperature-- and even with that you are limited by the output 1/f noise <= 1Hz.  You might be able to get an LM399 (heated) reference to hold still for 2ppm, but below that you would need to change to an LTZ1000.  So, it kind of depends on what you want to do with this reference-- if it is just for standard jelly-bean handheld DMMs, then the specs can be relaxed-- if is for calibration of a 6+1/2 digit DMM, then the 2ppm device will be needed, and for better than 6+1/2 digits, then an LTZ1000 will be needed.

Remember, the artifact (voltage reference) must have at least 4X less uncertainty than the instrument you are calibrating with it.

I don't know what those numbers have to do with anything, he said .05%(500ppm) not 0.05ppm. Unless I'm wrong about that. If .05ppm I'd buy one.

The original question and answer:

I think a lot would also depend on the type of calibration that you can offer. Can you specify?

For example, Doug Malone specifies an in-cal 3458a and the burn-in time. He also allows for a re-calibration after some amount of time.

It depends, at the moment I could offer 0,05% initial accuracy, if I could sell one hundred devices I'd purchase a traceable fluke 732
and null against that.  :)



To clarify, at this moment I can't offer a calibration with useful uncertainties, let a alone traceable to any national standard.
I could order 0,05% accurate parts so that would be something.

The idea I have is to make something sturdy and compact that can be mailed around in a cal-club type fashion,
so it will gather calibration points just like rolling stones gathers moss, or something like that.
And if it gets lost or damaged a replacement is readily available (for purchase..).

No can do on 0.05ppm accuracy, however I might know a competitor that is willing to sell you that.
 

Online maginnovision

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Re: How much would you pay for a assembled 10V reference?
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2019, 12:28:02 am »
I understand. I think what you could do is find someone to help or work with you to do this. You could design/build and someone else could calibrate and ship. You do need to at least make sure the lt1021s you'd be using are stable.
 

Offline bob91343

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Re: How much would you pay for a assembled 10V reference?
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2019, 02:33:34 am »
While it's true that I don't really know how close my ICs and my 3456A are, they come from different sources and agree amazingly well.  I also got hold of a 3455A that stopped working but until that happened it agreed with the 3456A to the last digit.

So I think that, statistically, I am pretty much spot on with this gear.  And if I am off a few microvolts I would neither know nor care.  Certainly more accurate than any other instrument I or my friends have.
 

Offline Magnificent Bastard

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Re: How much would you pay for a assembled 10V reference?
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2019, 02:51:40 am »
Evidently, people did not read my post.  I NEVER mentioned 0.05ppm.

I have asked, "what is this for, and what do you expect it to do for you?"

STILL no answer...    |O
 

Online maginnovision

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Re: How much would you pay for a assembled 10V reference?
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2019, 03:00:53 am »
He mentions voltage-standard.com's and ab-precision.de's standards so I assume he's going for a proper calibrated voltage reference.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2019, 08:06:02 am by maginnovision »
 

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Re: How much would you pay for a assembled 10V reference?
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2019, 05:16:12 am »
Word proper has different meaning for different people.  :popcorn:
In reality there is market for all various references, be it $50, or $500, or $5K one. Heck, there is market even for $500k reference, but it's very little and niche :)
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: How much would you pay for a assembled 10V reference?
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2019, 07:21:22 am »
Because my hand assembled nicely aged and highly beloved dual lt1021 voltage reference is missing in action thanks to DHL.  :--

I'm looking at building a new one, or better two, or..
To ease assembly a nice pcb will be designed.

The focus will be:

* "low cost"
* good long-term stability (buried zener either way)
* can be shipped as a letter (or book) max height 30mm
* metal housing
* on-board temp. sensor


Similar devices are:

Doug Malone's voltage standard:
http://shop.voltagestandard.com/product.sc;jsessionid=070D2648EEAA7B01A9A816457C444946.p3plqscsfapp004?productId=6&categoryId=1)

and

AB -precision DVR1 voltage standard:
https://www.ab-precision.de/products/electrical-standards/


Is there an interest in such a product? and if so what features/specs would you like and in what price range?

As stated, component cost plus £10.

If aged and calibrated, significantly more.
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