Author Topic: HP 3458A ; A/D board spare part availibilty and cost  (Read 46138 times)

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Offline rodpp

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Re: HP 3458A ; A/D board spare part availibilty and cost
« Reply #125 on: August 22, 2020, 05:43:49 pm »
Any news about the @TiN review of the 3458A Black?
 

Offline e61_phil

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Re: HP 3458A ; A/D board spare part availibilty and cost
« Reply #126 on: August 22, 2020, 05:48:56 pm »
So, this is an instrument that should not be turned off when seeking best metrological performance ... makes sense, I suppose :-\

Our local cal lab told me exactly that recently.
 

Offline niner_007

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Re: HP 3458A ; A/D board spare part availibilty and cost
« Reply #127 on: August 24, 2020, 12:56:13 am »
Thanks Dr. Frank.  The 3458A has been on continuously for a week and things are looking better. 

So, this is an instrument that should not be turned off when seeking best metrological performance ... makes sense, I suppose :-\
It’s not just the 3458A, any instrument subjected to drifts should be kept on, which is every instrument out there
 

Online Kleinstein

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Re: HP 3458A ; A/D board spare part availibilty and cost
« Reply #128 on: August 24, 2020, 06:46:46 am »
Thanks Dr. Frank.  The 3458A has been on continuously for a week and things are looking better. 

So, this is an instrument that should not be turned off when seeking best metrological performance ... makes sense, I suppose :-\
It’s not just the 3458A, any instrument subjected to drifts should be kept on, which is every instrument out there
It depends on the instrument: some parts that get quite hot in normal operation may show faster drifting and aging when on. This can be the LM399 reference or parts in RF gear that also run at relatively high power density. There it is a balance between the aging and thermal hysteresis effects from a changing temperature.  Having an instrument constantly powered also makes it easier to correct for drift, as the drift rate is more predictable.

The 3458 is better of running 24/7, though the power consumption is quite high. I am afraid the new black edition (and thus new boards) is not much lower in consumption (mainly the digital part may save a little.
 

Online dietert1

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Re: HP 3458A ; A/D board spare part availibilty and cost
« Reply #129 on: August 24, 2020, 09:39:44 am »
I think some people here try to use an instrument beyond its limits. A 3458A DVM lhat needs to be kept running 24/7 and needs to be kept at 23 +/- 1 °C and yet needs to be calibrated once a day is definitely used beyond its limits. It may be fun to try and work like that, but not very practical in terms of results. And Kleinstein mentioned it before: Power consumption is more than what is practical with batteries.

Regards, Dieter
 

Offline notfaded1

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Re: HP 3458A ; A/D board spare part availibilty and cost
« Reply #130 on: August 24, 2020, 01:28:43 pm »
I'm not so worried about the power consumption but more interested in the instruments stable state.  Something as sensitive as the 3458 seems to need some real time to "settle" into its most stable state if it's running correctly.  On one hand I feel like I might be using up my 3458's life but on the other I know this is it's stable state after running for a few months non stop and I can characterize it's base running capabilities without wondering if it's still going through a recovery from being turned off for an extended period.  In many ways it's similar to the way an OCXO needs time to become frequency stable (as much as it ever will be) after being turned off and it's oven cold... maybe a simple analogy but that's how I like to think of it.

Bill
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Offline Dr. Frank

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Re: HP 3458A ; A/D board spare part availibilty and cost
« Reply #131 on: August 25, 2020, 12:24:01 pm »
I'm not so worried about the power consumption but more interested in the instruments stable state.  Something as sensitive as the 3458 seems to need some real time to "settle" into its most stable state if it's running correctly.  On one hand I feel like I might be using up my 3458's life but on the other I know this is it's stable state after running for a few months non stop and I can characterize it's base running capabilities without wondering if it's still going through a recovery from being turned off for an extended period.  In many ways it's similar to the way an OCXO needs time to become frequency stable (as much as it ever will be) after being turned off and it's oven cold... maybe a simple analogy but that's how I like to think of it.

Bill
Bill,

the 3458A generally reaches its stable state (i.e. its specification limits) after a 2..4h warm up phase, with constant room temperature and an ACAL. There is no further settling time like an OCXO always shows.

Only if you make observations beyond (below) its specification limits, then you might observe subtle relaxation / hysteresis effects.
Practically speaking, when I let my 3458A settle longer, maybe 12h over night before making measurements, one can observe the last tenths of ppm drift, mainly caused by better stabilization of the temperature of the instrument or the room.

The question arises, what is really relevant for you, and which quantitative limits you are able to observe.
These limits you should define for your use case initially.
Also keep in mind, that running 24/7, the old version really consumes the lifetime of these EL2018 comparators, because they were getting quite hot, which is not the case any more with the Black Edition.
The inner temperature of the B.E. rises about 5°C less than the old version, due to use of modern components.

Let me illustrate this problem a bit deeper with several examples from practical experiences.

Remember, that no DMM is accepted as a reference standard (for Volt, Ohm) by any Standards Institute, even if Fluke or HP have once promoted the 8508A or the 3458A as metrology grade instruments.
Reason maybe that their internal references drift too much in comparison to pure DCV and Ohm standards.

The 3458A is used for metrology purposes at Standards Institutes as a Transfer Standard mostly, using its ultralinear A/D of < 0.02ppm INL, and they let it also run 24/7 to avoid the warm up and stabilization time of 2..4h.
Of course these 0.02ppm INL are not officially specified, but they were able to characterize each of their instruments, to achieve much lower specification limits, maybe including timely and temperature stability of the LTZ1000A reference and of the A/D.
       
Like the Standards Institutes, us volt-nuts may also be able to characterize and use the 3458 beyond (below) its specification limits, see TiNs efforts and measurements on his "Golden" DMMs, with near zero ppm drifts, and proven 0.02ppm INL.
My 3458A, with an oven set to 65..70°C and intermittently used, shows a DCV drift of only 1.8ppm over 7 years.
I'm comparing my continuously running LTZ references (and my VHP202 resistors) once a month, and the achieved repeatability, provided by the 3458A, is on the order of 0.2ppm only.  If it would be powered 24/7, I would not expect better numbers, which are already below the limits of what the specification delivers.

In contrast, crucial was the recent use of low thermal PTFE cables with reversed measurements, which obviously improved this repeatability.

I observed greater shifts up to 0.5ppm, reversible and non-reversible ones, when either the 3458A, or the references were physically transported.

Otherwise, judging from these limits, I could not observe any further instability disadvantages, or hysteresis effects by intermittent operation, which you might have suspected.

You should define for yourself, which metrological drift / stability parameters are relevant for your, by defining quantitative limits.
Then you should perform a reality check, if these limits are really affected by intermittent operation, I doubt that, and what your own capabilities are concerning stability figures. 
I mean, if you expect e.g. 0.1ppm stability for a specific parameter, and you were not able to check that, or your other equipment is much less stable, what would be the benefit?

The 3458As (sub ppm) stability, on 24/7 or intermittent operation, in the end will always play a minor role only, I assume.

Frank
« Last Edit: August 25, 2020, 04:23:44 pm by Dr. Frank »
 
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Offline martinr33

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Re: HP 3458A ; A/D board spare part availibilty and cost
« Reply #132 on: September 05, 2020, 06:43:25 pm »
I spent some time poking through the 3458A parts list on Keysight's store, to see if anything might have shaken loose on the A3.

There's this piece of text on the new and refurbished board pages:


"This part is not available for direct sale but an instrument repair is orderable through our service center. Please contact Keysight to inquire about returning your instrument for repair."
https://www.keysight.com/my/partDetail/03458-66523
https://www.keysight.com/my/partDetail/03458-69503

So this looks like a permanent situation.

Also, the Keysight full refurb is now $3099.
https://service.keysight.com/infoline/public/product-service.aspx?laf=mya&pn=3458A&lc=eng&cc=US
« Last Edit: September 05, 2020, 07:16:30 pm by martinr33 »
 
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Offline notfaded1

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Re: HP 3458A ; A/D board spare part availibilty and cost
« Reply #133 on: September 08, 2020, 05:49:29 pm »
Wow if you want your 3458A compared to the Primary Standards Lab Calibration (Josephson Junction) - Per Incident     US$ 2140.00  :o  I guess it doesn't get better than that.  It's really too bad they won't even sell you an A3 if you want to buy one anymore like most other parts if they have them in stock.

Bill
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Offline Grandchuck

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Re: HP 3458A ; A/D board spare part availibilty and cost
« Reply #134 on: September 08, 2020, 06:31:42 pm »
Bill, to me the absolute calibration is not as interesting as the stability (repeatability) of the measurements that I can obtain.  I joined the US Cal Club to see how close my meter is to what TiN and cellularmitosis have prepared.  In fact, I might just use that stuff to calibrate my 10 year old 3458A  >:D

As a hobbyist, that should suffice.  I doubt that I will ever have a truly professional use that demands traceability.  If I would, I would pony up the money (not over 2k, though  ;))
 
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Offline notfaded1

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Re: HP 3458A ; A/D board spare part availibilty and cost
« Reply #135 on: September 08, 2020, 07:31:55 pm »
It's interesting to see what it costs to get your meter calibrated to the Josephson Junction array though!  We don't pay for this for our meters at work.  Much of ours is done by a company called SIMCO.
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Offline martinr33

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Re: HP 3458A ; A/D board spare part availibilty and cost
« Reply #136 on: January 28, 2021, 12:28:12 am »
Just poking through the Keysight spare parts list again, most PCBs are now unavailable except for a handful of power supplies, the reference boards, and the F/R switch.

The new A/D board is at least priced (at $2232), but marked "available until gone". So maybe it will make a comeback.



 

Offline IanJ

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Re: HP 3458A ; A/D board spare part availibilty and cost
« Reply #137 on: January 28, 2021, 08:00:47 pm »
Just poking through the Keysight spare parts list again, most PCBs are now unavailable except for a handful of power supplies, the reference boards, and the F/R switch.

The new A/D board is at least priced (at $2232), but marked "available until gone". So maybe it will make a comeback.

I bought the F/R switch from Keysight after a Cal at Keysight they mentioned it gave them some possible instability.....so I bought the switch and fitted 1-year later just prior to the next Cal with Keysight.
I presume the switch is not bespoke to Keysight and is possibly available elsewhere......else, worth picking one up from them.

I also have one of the Ebay sourced Chinese supplied 3458A VFD's in a box, albeit I don't know how good they are.

Ian.
Ian Johnston - Original designer of the PDVS2mini || Author of the free WinGPIB app.
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Offline TheSteve

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Re: HP 3458A ; A/D board spare part availibilty and cost
« Reply #138 on: January 28, 2021, 08:39:49 pm »
Just poking through the Keysight spare parts list again, most PCBs are now unavailable except for a handful of power supplies, the reference boards, and the F/R switch.

The new A/D board is at least priced (at $2232), but marked "available until gone". So maybe it will make a comeback.

I bought the F/R switch from Keysight after a Cal at Keysight they mentioned it gave them some possible instability.....so I bought the switch and fitted 1-year later just prior to the next Cal with Keysight.
I presume the switch is not bespoke to Keysight and is possibly available elsewhere......else, worth picking one up from them.

I also have one of the Ebay sourced Chinese supplied 3458A VFD's in a box, albeit I don't know how good they are.

Ian.

They used to sell just the switch, now you need to buy the switch PCB assembly. 
I get the feeling soon there will be almost no parts sold for any product.
VE7FM
 
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Offline ScoobyDoo

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Re: HP 3458A ; A/D board spare part availibilty and cost
« Reply #139 on: February 20, 2021, 10:50:16 am »
Hello folks - I recently contacted a knowledgeable person inside US Keysight organisation.
Keysight decided to change its service policy for all PCB sub-assembly products ("replacement boards") -
not only for 3458A ... - but for all their standard metrology gear (with a few exceptions for high profile customers).
The new policy is that one needs to return unit for $.$$$ repair at "standard service cost".
I believe that Keysight PLM should make an exception for this unique instrument and the only way is that the owner's community generates enough noise to make Keysight PLM aware that they took wrong decision.
No one will return his unit to KS service center to swap his VFD display for about +3000 USD - it is a foolish decision by KS management and we should convince them to make an exception for this 3458A legacy instrument. If KS management really believes people will pay +3000 USD to service their instrument then their product managers are living on another planet ... - it looks like they want to destroy their own DMM business unit. People who turn their back to invest in high end Fluke (metrology) gear will probably not return as KS customer first two decades ...

Herzlichen Grüßen/Meilleures salutations/Best regards/Un saludo

Best regards
ScoobyDoo


« Last Edit: February 20, 2021, 12:22:08 pm by ScoobyDoo »
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: HP 3458A ; A/D board spare part availibilty and cost
« Reply #140 on: February 20, 2021, 11:27:36 am »
Thanks for the insight of Keysight!

No surprise here, this has been the trend at Keysight for a long time.
I think we can be happy that we could buy so many parts all these years.

Look at Keithley for instance, you can not get any internal parts for any
of their instruments and this has been like this for 10 years already.

There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can not.
 

Offline branadic

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Re: HP 3458A ; A/D board spare part availibilty and cost
« Reply #141 on: February 20, 2021, 11:48:06 am »
That is as silly as having the meter calibrated at Loveland and then transported via airplane back to original continent, while the meter is sitting in the back of the plane with temperatures as cold as ...
Would sometime help if managers would use the thing between their ears instead of smelling the fast dollar.

-branadic-
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Offline ScoobyDoo

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Re: HP 3458A ; A/D board spare part availibilty and cost
« Reply #142 on: February 20, 2021, 02:45:49 pm »
Hello Folks - Keysight recently created an update of their 3458A Assembly level & repair manual (03458-90018)

https://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/03458-90018.pdf?id=3092042

However I am asking myself the question which purpose this has as current owners have no access to the replacement boards - we all have to return unit to KS service centre and pay +3000 USD - what a joke ...

Is it politically incorrect to make statement that Keysight is misleading future customers with making this manual publicly available if these customers have no access to these boards and need to pass KS service centre and pony up +3000 USD ... - what an 1st April fools joke it looks like ... (?)

Herzlichen Grüßen/Meilleures salutations/Best regards/Un saludo

ScoobyDoo
« Last Edit: February 20, 2021, 02:57:39 pm by ScoobyDoo »
 

Online dietert1

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Re: HP 3458A ; A/D board spare part availibilty and cost
« Reply #143 on: February 20, 2021, 03:50:03 pm »
If you read page 101 of the document, the words are "Keysight can .. ", not "Keysight will ..". I haven't seen the numbers but probably they are suffering a lot from the Chinese taking away more and more of their global business. And maybe they are trying to focus on national business, where guarding IP is a little easier.

Regards, Dieter
 

Offline ScoobyDoo

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Re: HP 3458A ; A/D board spare part availibilty and cost
« Reply #144 on: February 20, 2021, 04:26:32 pm »
Hello Folks - the standard service cost at Fluke for their Metrology gear (F8508A/F8558A/F8588A) is less than 1300 € ... - Keysight charges a fee close to 3000€ "only" ...

At the end of the day ... only stability - accuracy - cost and total cost of ownership is what matters most ...

Herzlichen Grüßen/Meilleures salutations/Best regards/Un saludo
ScoobyDoo
« Last Edit: February 20, 2021, 04:53:30 pm by ScoobyDoo »
 

Offline ScoobyDoo

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Re: HP 3458A ; A/D board spare part availibilty and cost
« Reply #145 on: February 20, 2021, 04:52:09 pm »
1.) If you read page 101 of the document, the words are "Keysight can .. ", not "Keysight will ..".

2.) I haven't seen the numbers but probably they are suffering a lot from the Chinese taking away more and more of their global business. And maybe they are trying to focus on national business, where guarding IP is a little easier.

Regards, Dieter

A1.: Text says in US ... (Lawyers Talk - LoL)
A2.: They nursed Rigol (Pudong - Bejing in RPC) ... shot in their own foot and making a new mistake again ...

Herzlichen Grüßen/Meilleures salutations/Best regards/Un saludo
ScoobyDoo

« Last Edit: February 20, 2021, 04:56:32 pm by ScoobyDoo »
 

Offline Villain

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Re: HP 3458A ; A/D board spare part availibilty and cost
« Reply #146 on: February 20, 2021, 05:25:10 pm »
Well, lets keep it real. The people in this forum that complain about this situation (rightfully so or not does not really matter) are probably .01% of the customers. The other 99.99% are huge tech companies that just pay the 3k$ because they don't care, especially not the company engineer who needs his 3458A repaired, because the company pays for it, its not his own money.

That is the same reason for this "outcry" to be so "quiet" that it will fly under the radar entirely.

Again i am not saying that this is right or wrong.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2021, 05:27:44 pm by Villain »
 
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Online Kleinstein

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Re: HP 3458A ; A/D board spare part availibilty and cost
« Reply #147 on: February 20, 2021, 05:50:53 pm »
In countries like the US, GB or Germany it is not so bad to send the meter to KS to repair and get it back relatively fast. Often one would need a new cal with a repair anyway - so one may want to send the meter in anyway even if one would replace the board.  However the price looks relatively steep - given that the ADC failure is more like a know issue and likely not user fault. It may make a difference if the repair cost in clude calibration, but I am afraid this may be extra.

However in less developed countries with no local KS support, sending a meter out to repair can be major hassle. Also wages may be lower so that a repair, even at component level may be an option. A board swap is relatively easy especially with the relatively modular 3458 a very vialble way.

Sometimes speed may be more of an issue than costs - sending out just the board is natural half the time for shipping, and less risc of damage during transport. This also applies to more normal customers, unless next door to KS service center. Not all customers need a cal certificate - though a new cal after repair is defintely a good idea.
 

Offline saturnin

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Re: HP 3458A ; A/D board spare part availibilty and cost
« Reply #148 on: February 20, 2021, 06:18:55 pm »
Hello Folks - the standard service cost at Fluke for their Metrology gear (F8508A/F8558A/F8588A) is less than 1300 € ... - Keysight charges a fee close to 3000€ "only" ...
ScoobyDoo

Hmm...just to put it to perspective...fix-price repair of Keithley 2002 incl. traceable standard calibration under ISO9001 is 2’400€ (excl. tax of course) ... the offer is from Dec 2020. I also asked whether they sell a certain spare board, they said no - as I expected.  ;)
 

Offline e61_phil

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Re: HP 3458A ; A/D board spare part availibilty and cost
« Reply #149 on: February 20, 2021, 06:43:06 pm »
Hello Folks - the standard service cost at Fluke for their Metrology gear (F8508A/F8558A/F8588A) is less than 1300 € ... - Keysight charges a fee close to 3000€ "only" ...
ScoobyDoo

Hmm...just to put it to perspective...fix-price repair of Keithley 2002 incl. traceable standard calibration under ISO9001 is 2’400€ (excl. tax of course) ... the offer is from Dec 2020. I also asked whether they sell a certain spare board, they said no - as I expected.  ;)

That's interesting. I send our 8508A this year to Fluke and they charge 1282€ as a fix-price.
 


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