Author Topic: Ref80 - A competition to ADR1001?  (Read 20814 times)

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Offline dlebed

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Re: Ref80 - A competition to ADR1001?
« Reply #125 on: November 30, 2024, 08:44:55 am »
I finally got my GND measurement boards (with all GNDs routed separately). It took about two weeks as I've waiting for "After Dark" OSHPark's PCBs.

Here is the summary of my measurements
2449495-0

I put small resistors between each power and ground node to measure current between them.
NB: Current measurements might be affected by thermal EMF (shunt voltages were at most a couple mVs), so it's not ultra precise, but 100uA and 1mA are easily distinguishable.

Looks like pin names are assigned more or less correctly.

Findings:
- There is almost no current that goes into GND pin (13), only about 100uA - this might be a digital ground, indeed
- Pin 15 is main Zener ground, all 14mA goes through it and not through pin 14
- Pin 14 seems to be GND sense, <100uA current flows there
- Pin 4 is Zener + Force
- Pin 5 is Zener + Sense (~130uA flows there when idle)

When 1mA load is attached between pins 4 - 15 (proclaimed Force +/-), then current flowing into Pin 14 (GND_Sense) does not change at all, current into REFZ_Sense (5) drops by ~60uA.
When 1mA load is attached between pins 5 - 14 (proclaimed Sense +/-), then current starts flowing from Force pins. Amount of external current is different: entire 1mA flows between GND sense/force, but only 0.72mA flows between REFZ sense/force.

So we're probably looking at something like 10 Ohm resistance (3mV at 0.3mA) between REFZ sense (5) and force (4) pins.
2449499-1
 
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Offline Kleinstein

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Re: Ref80 - A competition to ADR1001?
« Reply #126 on: December 02, 2024, 10:13:58 am »
It is a bit surprising to get 2 so different Ref GND pins. There is not much headroom at the low side for any amplifier or active circuit for the pins 14 and 15. Much of the imbalance could be from the 4.7 ohm resistor to measure the current.

It is a bit surprising to see so little current to pin 13. I would have expected a little more, more like 1 mA for the amplifiers.

 

Offline magic

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Re: Ref80 - A competition to ADR1001?
« Reply #127 on: December 02, 2024, 10:33:54 am »
Can the buffer sink current? What happens to GND and supply currents then?

There seems to be no load regulation spec, not sure what to think about it.
 

Offline iMo

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Re: Ref80 - A competition to ADR1001?
« Reply #128 on: December 02, 2024, 01:35:19 pm »
The output load capability could be checked easily by loading the output by 3-4 resistors while measuring the output voltage. The excel will show you the slope with the output resistance then (like the "1R7" in case of the first ADR1001 samples).

PS: the load shall be lower than 1mA (DS), so for example load it w/ 330k, 100k, 33k, 10k..
« Last Edit: December 02, 2024, 01:45:35 pm by iMo »
Readers discretion is advised..
 

Offline Noopy

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Re: Ref80 - A competition to ADR1001?
« Reply #129 on: December 02, 2024, 02:42:45 pm »
I have some more information regarding the REF80:

A look at the publicly advertised processes from Texas Instruments suggests that the HPA07 process was used in the REF80. (I´m not sure about that!) This process dates back to 2003 and is referred to as “High-Performance Analog CMOS”. The HP180, which is based on the AN180, would also be conceivable. It is described as “extremely low-noise, high precision”. However, the HPA07 is also available as HPA07HV, where it allows up to 36V. The HP180 only allows 24V. This makes the HPA07HV somewhat more likely. The maximum heater voltage of the REF80 is specified as 42V. In my view it is possible that the HPA07HV can handle the 42V with additional measures.

The minimum structure width of the HPA07 is 0,3µm. Special isolation structures are available to shield sensitive circuit parts from potentially interfering circuit parts. MOSFETs, JFETs, NPN and PNP transistors can be integrated. The transistors have a very low noise level. The process offers metal-to-metal capacitors, IMD capacitors and titanium nitride polysilicon capacitors. In addition to polysilicon resistors, precision thin-film resistors can be used, which can also be tuned with a laser process. Polysilicon fuses and memory cells are available for configuration, including OTP EPROM and EEPROM. The top metal layer can be a particularly thick copper layer.

In the following pictures, layers of the integrated circuit have been removed piece by piece. This is not a professional delayering. For this reason, the removal of the layers is inhomogeneous and some structures can only be removed by underetching. Nevertheless, new interesting insights are gained.




Initial state: https://www.richis-lab.de/images/REF01/51x08XL.jpg (43MB)




After 12min HF: https://www.richis-lab.de/images/REF01/51x26XL.jpg (42MB)




After 5min HCL: https://www.richis-lab.de/images/REF01/51x27XL.jpg (45MB)




After 12min HF: https://www.richis-lab.de/images/REF01/51x28XL.jpg (45MB)




After 12min HF: https://www.richis-lab.de/images/REF01/51x29XL.jpg (47MB)




After 12min HF: https://www.richis-lab.de/images/REF01/51x30XL.jpg (45MB)




After 96min HF: https://www.richis-lab.de/images/REF01/51x31XL.jpg (47MB)




Many areas are surrounded by relatively thick frames. These are most likely the special insulation structures offered by the HPA07 process. Some elements can be clearly assigned to CMOS and bipolar transistors. The structures that can be seen here have an unusual asymmetry. They probably form so-called DEMOS, Drain Extended MOS.




In the book Silicon Analog Components by Badih El-Kareh and Lou N. Hutter, there is a comparison of DEMOS and LDMOS transistors. Lou Hutter was involved in the development of many processes at Texas Instruments.




In the left-hand area, a logic structure was already expected due to the wiring in the top metal layer. This is confirmed at the substrate level (blue). Above and below the control logic are two very similar blocks (cyan). Two rows of resistors and two rows of transistors are integrated in each block. Judging by the optical appearance, this could be a kind of simple DAC.

Under the four bondpads, which provide the reference voltage, there are some larger elements (yellow). Exactly the same elements can also be found under the four bondpads in the lower area. It therefore appears that this is actually a second output.

A very large area in the lower section of the die is covered with capacitors. The capacitors were realized in the metal layers and have already disappeared here. Underneath are some kind of strips. These appear to be further capacitors.

In addition to many smaller transistors, several larger transistor groups are integrated (red). The heater voltage is supplied in the top right-hand area and this is also where the output is located, which indicates when the set temperature has been reached. It is therefore not surprising that there are large transistors in this corner. Below the frame structure, which distributes the heater current, there are thin, long rows of transistors. It can be assumed that these transistors fulfill a task as part of the heating function. Outside this frame, four slightly larger blocks are arranged symmetrically. These could be the output stages for the reference voltage output. A certain amount of power loss is to be expected there, which is better distributed as symmetrically as possible. The smaller transistor strips inside the frame could be current sources for the four reference voltage sources.






The double lines that are typical for logic circuits can now be seen on the substrate (yellow). Some of the polysilicon strips that represent the gate electrodes have remained. While the logic within the double lines has a chaotic inhomogeneity, repetitive structures stand out on the left (cyan). These are most probably memory cells containing correction values. It appears that the memory cells are located in the middle and are flanked on the right and left by circuit parts via which the cells can be selected, written to and read out.




Here you can see the transistors and Z-diodes, which most likely supply the basic reference voltage. The many small elements that resemble dirt are the remains of the contacts between the layers. In more modern processes, these vias are lined with metals that do not dissolve and then remain as sleeves or cylinders.

The area on the right now also shows what is under the large cross-shaped metal surface in the middle. These are relatively simple structures.




In an intermediate step, it can be seen that a series of resistors were located in a higher layer. The resistors have surprisingly complex contacts and are embedded between the metal layers.




With the information obtained, the following assumption can be made. The voltage for heating the REF80 is fed via the metal layer to a frame of transistors that regulate the heating power (yellow). From there, the current is conducted to resistors (red) that surround the four reference voltage sources (green). A great deal of effort was put into the design of the heater resistors, presumably to distribute the heat as homogeneously as possible and to prevent electrical interference. Temperature sensors (purple) close the control loop.


https://www.richis-lab.de/REF46.htm#etch

 :-/O
 
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Offline iMo

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Re: Ref80 - A competition to ADR1001?
« Reply #130 on: December 02, 2024, 03:40:32 pm »
So.. do we need all this in order to generate 7V DC.. ?
 :phew:
 :-+
Readers discretion is advised..
 
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Offline Noopy

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Re: Ref80 - A competition to ADR1001?
« Reply #131 on: December 02, 2024, 04:13:28 pm »
It seems they tried to achieve a precision voltage reference by throwing everything they have onto a wafer.  ;D
The usual way you build analog precision parts today.  :D

Offline Kleinstein

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Re: Ref80 - A competition to ADR1001?
« Reply #132 on: December 02, 2024, 04:19:25 pm »
Chances are that some of the circuit is not used, especially the part connected to the 2nd output with the unused band pads / 2nd output.

Having many units in parallel and average is a way to get symmetry and this way get less sensitive to temperature gradients across the chip.
One a chip there is essentially no extra costs for 10 small transistors compared to 1 larger one with 10 x the area. It may even be easier as the small one are the more standard sizes for the process.

The digital trim part also needs quite some transistors / memory cells, but should not use much area. Much could be known working blocks taken over from other designs (e.g. OP-amps or ADCs). So this looks complicated, but could be easy for the designers.

The analog temperature regulation may need relatively large capacitance. The LTZ1000 uses quite large external capacitors in the temperature regulation. There can be a few ways to reduce it, but it still needs relatively large time constants.
 
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Offline iMo

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Re: Ref80 - A competition to ADR1001?
« Reply #133 on: December 02, 2024, 04:44:21 pm »
The REF81 will be with 2 outputs:
OUT1 .. 7.6V Vref as it is today
OUT2 .. via 8/10 bit serial input configurable (simple serial bitbanging), say 0.5V -7.6V in 8 or 10bit resolution
 ;)
Readers discretion is advised..
 

Offline dlebed

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Re: Ref80 - A competition to ADR1001?
« Reply #134 on: December 03, 2024, 07:07:47 am »
Quote
The output load capability could be checked easily by loading the output by 3-4 resistors while measuring the output voltage. The excel will show you the slope with the output resistance then (like the "1R7" in case of the first ADR1001 samples).

PS: the load shall be lower than 1mA (DS), so for example load it w/ 330k, 100k, 33k, 10k..

I already did that before (see my previous posts in this thread), my initial design with suboptimal GND connection had about 0.8Ohm output impedance.
Once I split GND I was able to see output impedance drop to about 0.4Ohm at 1mA load.
 
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Offline dlebed

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Re: Ref80 - A competition to ADR1001?
« Reply #135 on: December 03, 2024, 07:21:47 am »
REF80 noise

While my LNA is under construction, I got an LNA from trtr6842 (thanks!), so now I was able to measure REF80's noise compared to .... US Cal Club's 10V FX Reference that happen to visit me ;D
LNA https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/diy-0-1-to-10hz-noise-amplifier/

What I can say, it performs up to spec and is actually better noise-wise than FX Reference.

Here is the baseline noise from the LNA itself (inputs shorted).
2452057-0

REF80 Noise
40uF film capacitors on REF output, LTC3045 LDO as to filter out input supply noise, 15V supply voltage for heater/reference.



US Cal Club FX Reference
No modifications done, warmed up for multiple days already.



Summary:
REF80 has about 1.3uV p-p noise @ 7.6V (0.17ppm p-p) - datasheet states 0.16ppm p-p typ.
FX LTZ1000 has 3.09uV p-p noise @ 10V (0.3ppm p-p)
« Last Edit: December 03, 2024, 07:43:48 am by dlebed »
 
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Offline iMo

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Re: Ref80 - A competition to ADR1001?
« Reply #136 on: December 03, 2024, 07:45:46 am »
The LTZ FX noise (3.1uVpp @10V) looks rather high - at the 1399 level, imho..
Readers discretion is advised..
 

Offline Andreas

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Re: Ref80 - A competition to ADR1001?
« Reply #137 on: December 03, 2024, 09:19:25 pm »
Hmm,

for me it looks like there is a oscillation within the signal (mains hum?)
Can you do a FFT of the measured signals? (hope you have stored them).

Why do you use 0.5sec/div in one of the measurements?
(for measuring 0.1-10 Hz you need minimum 10 secs total aquisition time).
I would also use minimum 1000 kpts total aquisition (for having a high resolution FFT).

with best regards

Andreas
 

Offline Kleinstein

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Re: Ref80 - A competition to ADR1001?
« Reply #138 on: December 03, 2024, 09:31:49 pm »
An FFT on the noise data would make sense. I see little need in using 1M points. If the sample length is fixed the extra points would only give extra points for higher frequencies and there is little use in these. It would make sense to use a time window well more than 10s for the FFT, as the low end tends to be noisy. Some randomness can be an issue anyway if there is popcorn noise with a relatively low transition rate, like with most LM399. So one would look at the pp noise over many 10 second windows and than average the pp values (one could argue about averaging as power).

The FX ref. seems to have quite some popcorn noise with mulitple levels.
 

Offline dlebed

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Re: Ref80 - A competition to ADR1001?
« Reply #139 on: December 03, 2024, 11:40:13 pm »
FFT I originally attached was incorrectly labeled as REF80 while being an FX LTZ.
I will recapture the FFT for both the FX and REF80 and post the results.
I did that in peak hold mode to average aver time, I will pay more attention to settings this time.
Maybe I will eventually just use DMM7510 as a digitizer + some python for it to get better results.
 

Offline dlebed

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Re: Ref80 - A competition to ADR1001?
« Reply #140 on: December 04, 2024, 06:48:25 am »
Andreas, I used 0.5sec/div only for quick inherent noise estimation for the LNA itself (with shorted inputs).
As you can see the noise is an order of magnitude lower, so I did not spend much time capturing that.
Doing longer capture won't really change the the overall picture.

As Kleinstein mentioned, from time domain picture it's pretty clear that FX LTZ reference has quite a bit of higher frequency noise content, while REF80 is more smooth and does not have as much noise at higher frequencies.
TBH I have not yet checked this particular FX reference box schematic to see where this noise could be coming from (amplifier? resistors?).

I did a few longer FFT runs with the scope and the noise spectral density different is indeed there.

REF80 FFT
30 minutes averaging, p-p mean value (20 sec interval) over 30 minutes is 1.34uV for 7.6 VREF output (0.17ppm p-p), so no change from my previous shorter measurement.
Absolute maximum noise span over 30 minutes is (0.9-(-0.9)) = 1.8uV, which is 0.23ppm p-p.


FX LTZ100 FFT
8 minute averaging, p-p mean value (20 sec interval) over 8 minutes is 3uV for 10V VREF output (0.3ppm p-p), is aligned with my previous data.
Absolute maximum noise span over 8 minutes is (1.858-(-1.866)) = 3.7uV, which is 0.37ppm p-p.


Noise Spectrum
As you can see, REF80 has a different noise spectrum in 0.1-10Hz range with a clear peak (~ -148dBV) at around 0.1-0.2Hz region and average noise level of ~ -159dbV in 0.5-10Hz region.

FX LTX reference on the other hand has pretty much flat noise spectrum plot in 0.1-10Hz range with a level of ~ -148dBV.
 
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Offline iMo

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Re: Ref80 - A competition to ADR1001?
« Reply #141 on: December 04, 2024, 07:42:14 am »
When comparing with the ADR1001 - here is the noise in 0.1-10Hz I measured with my simple noise tester -> 1.6-2.3uVpp @10V in 10 independent 12secs long measurements, its 10V output buffered by the OPA189..
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/adr1001-ovenized-voltage-reference-system/msg5154198/#msg5154198
« Last Edit: December 04, 2024, 07:43:55 am by iMo »
Readers discretion is advised..
 

Offline dlebed

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Re: Ref80 - A competition to ADR1001?
« Reply #142 on: December 04, 2024, 08:30:35 am »
Here is LM399 result measured with the same setup for the sake of completeness.
Buffered 7V output (ADA4523-1) over 12 minutes gave mean 3.68uV p-p over 20 second interval, resulting in 0.52ppm p-p and 7.2uV absolute span (~1ppm p-p).
Nothing special, well known popcorn noise is present.
Y axis scale is different from the plots above.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2024, 04:56:45 pm by dlebed »
 

Offline Andreas

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Re: Ref80 - A competition to ADR1001?
« Reply #143 on: December 04, 2024, 08:06:27 pm »
Hmm,

but how is the behaviour near the mains frequency?
A transformer within 50 cm can create a significant peak even outside the bandpass filter frequency.

with best regards

Andreas
 

Offline dlebed

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Re: Ref80 - A competition to ADR1001?
« Reply #144 on: December 05, 2024, 06:08:12 am »
Andreas,

Here is behavior including mains frequency (60Hz).

LF LNA with shorted inputs
There is 54.5Hz small peak there, this seem to be something inherent to the setup.


REF80


FX LTZ1000


REF80's Power Supply


REF80 and LTZ references are powered by different power supplies, both are linear.
REF80 power comes from a custom built DIY PSU based on LT3081, its noise is aligned with LT3081's datasheet (27uV RMS), it's based on low-leakage shielded transformer.
There are also a few CLC filters in REF80's power supply chain.

All captures made with the same setup.

NB: FX's noise p-p level dropped from ~3uV p-p yesterday to ~2.1uV p-p today, I did not change anything and REF80's noise remained the same.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2024, 06:11:17 am by dlebed »
 
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Offline floobydust

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Re: Ref80 - A competition to ADR1001?
« Reply #145 on: December 05, 2024, 07:20:13 am »
Don't forget to examine for mains 2nd harmonic at 100/120Hz when using full-wave bridge rectification.

I'll use a simple signal tracer, an audio amplifier out of a LM386 $2 on Ali/eBay and listen to the noise.
You might hear hum, powerline hash, cell-phone/WiFi/cordless phone RF TX chirps, microphonics, LED/fluorescent lighting, AM radio, oscillations etc.
Saves a lot of time and you can also get a better idea of a lab's noise sources.
 

Offline Andreas

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Re: Ref80 - A competition to ADR1001?
« Reply #146 on: December 05, 2024, 08:11:57 am »
All captures made with the same setup.
With magnetic stray from transformers small changes in distance can have a large influence.
With each new measurement series I do a noise floor measurement and a check for mains frequency.

with best regards

Andreas
 
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