Author Topic: I'm building an ultra-precision high resistance bridge(now: panel finished)  (Read 21493 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline zlymexTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 556
  • Country: cn
Current status: power supply and the main board finished. Panel just finished. 

Reasons
 - Commercial high ohmmeters/bridges are not very good in accuracy and precision
 - Metrology grade bridges such as used in NIST or MI 6600A are unobtainium
 - Absolute necessary when DIY high resistance standards
 - There are many high resistance resistors need testing
 - High ohm-nutting.
 - The knowledge and learning curve of high resistance bridge is also related to weak current measurement.

Requirement
These are my ultimate goals.
 - Comparison decade resistors of 1M, 10M, 100M, 1G, 10G, 100G and 1T
   (It is the limitation of test range makes the the low uncertainty possible. If a resistor box instead of a dummy is used, any intermediate value can be measured but with increased uncertainty)
 - Test voltage: 100V, 50V and 10V for Rs and Rx, 10V for dummy.
 - Dummy resistors can either be internal(from 100k to 1G) or external.
 - 10:1 ratio allow easy step up.
 - Noise and linearity: 0.1ppm (1M), 1ppm(100M)
 - Resolution, same or better than above
 - Range +-2% and 0.2%(+-2000ppm)
 - Comparison uncertainty 0.3ppm (10M. much depending on the value of resistors to be compared, degrade for high resistance)
 - Measurement method: substitution, 1:1 and 10:1 comparison, direct measurement
 - Output: 4 digits LED readout and Voltage output(-2V to 2V, 1ppm/mV)


Panel

 - Dark blue for sockets, light blue for display, green for operation
 - Double circle for triaxial BNC sockets, single circle for normal BNC sockets
 - Rs and Rx can be selected by switch.
 - Rd can be either external or internal of 100k, 1M, 10M and possible 100M
 - There is a coarse and a fine adjustment knob for offset
 - The range of the LED display is -19999ppm to +19999ppm
   A switch provide fine display mode for -1999.9ppm to +1999.9ppm
 - There are two Voltage input sockets, one for 126V external power(also for charging), and 21V for another battery charging

Calibration
Calibration is necessary for comparison or direct measurement(not necessary for substitution)
Calibration is done for every Rd involved(one calibration for one Rd, including internal Rd)
Calibration procedures:
 - Connect a Standard resistor Rs and switch the 'Source' to Rs
 - Switch the dummy select to one of the internal dummy resistors or switch to external position and connect a dummy resistor Rd.
 - Switch power on, wait for stable.
 - Turn the fine adjustment knob to left most, adjust coarse knobs to display the deviation of Rs
 - Record the knob reading on paper, this is the calibration value for the corresponding Rd.

Operation procedures for substitution methord:
 - Connect a Standard resistor Rs and a test resistor Rx to be compared
 - Switch to one of the internal dummy resistors or switch to external position and connect a dummy resistor Rd.
 - Switch the 'Source' to Rs and switch power on
 - Adjust two knobs to display the deviation of Rs
   For example, if Rs is calibrated as -28.9ppm, adjust so that the LED reads -28.9ppm
 - Switch the 'Source' to Rx, the deviation of Rx will be displayed in ppm on the LED or can be read/recorded from the 'Rec Out'.

Operation procedures for comparison or direct measurement:
In these cases, Rs is not to be used, Rd may or may not be used.
 - First of all, the bridge and the Rd has to be calibrated before.
 - Switch Rd select to external and connect a Rd(for comparison) or switch to an internal Rd(for direct measurement).
 - Connect Rx, Switch the source select to Rx and switch the power on
 - Turn the fine adjustment knob to left most position and adjust the coarse to the calibrated value.
 - The offset of Rx is displayed on the LED or from 'Rec Out'.

High resistance buildup system

 - Higher resistances are step up on lower resistances, forming a calibration chain
 - Many of my intended high resistances are Hamon style as well.
 - The first link in the chain is the 100k Hamon which will be compared with my SR104 when connected as 10k and used as 1 Meg standard when connected in series.
 - The second link in the chain is SR1050 10Meg Hamon, configurable from 1M to 100M, will be compared with the 100k Hamon at 1M level and used as a temporary 100 Meg standard.
 - Similarly, the third link is 1G Hamon, and the fourth, 100G Hamon. There will be Hamons of other value or repeated Hamon such as 100M and 10G as drawn by dashed line.

Making considerations
 - Thermal EMF, not important, 1uV = 0.01ppm for 100V. Therefore, not low thermal EMF or power reversal used.
 - Contact resistance, not important, 0.1 Ohm = 0.1ppm for 1M, 0.1 Ohm = 0.001ppm for 10M
 - Interference, use metal box, screened connections, battery powered.
 - Leakage, guarded. The guard will keep the voltage of the outer screen very close to the inner conductor thus minimize the leakage. Also, PTFE materials are used whenever possible.
 - Guarding current: 1uA to 10uA. That is to say, 1/10 Meg guarding resistor for 10V, 10/100 Meg guard resistor for 100V
 - Humidity, sealed box, with moisture absorbent inside
 - Dust, plastic bag covers the box when not in use
 - Battery life, bridge, 600mAh type, 0.3mA consumption, 2000 hours in one charge.
 - Battery life, others(LED display and opamp), 3400mAh*5, 20mA consumption, >150 hours per charge.
 - Power supply circuit, linear, low-power type.
 - Temperature drift, use foil type for critical internal resistors
 - Shock, firm fix of batteries and board.


Schematics
Simplified.

The principle is simple, just another modified Wheatstone  bridge. Detector U1 together with Left two arms plus and an photocoupler form a feedback amplifier. Because this electo-meter grade U1 draws very tiny current(max 25fA), and also because voltage at point B and D are fixed, voltage at point A is proportional to Rsx. In theory, this point A can be used as the output owing to it is a low internal resistance, but in practice, the voltage is high, and need a long scale DMM to resolve the small relative change of this voltage.
Then the right two arms(R1 and R2) will step down this high voltage, and make the output earth referenced. That is to say, if the bridge is balanced, voltage at point C will be zero. However, this step down lost some magnitude, so I use another opamp U2 to magnify the signal to it's original value or even higher. This U2 isolates the relatively high resistance bridge arms from output, and also the magnification can be adjusted by R3. Because the current of R1 and R2 is 250uA, Ib of U2(<0.1nA ) contribute to less than 0.25ppm offset.

There are many advantages in this circuit:
 - The bridge balancing is automatic
 - Balancing is very fast compared to dual active arm method.
 - Only one critical point(point D), and the potential of this point is very close to ground(it is the virtual ground of U1), making the guarding very easy(no guard drive is necessary).
 - The output is linear (be noted that the output of a normal Wheatstone bridge is none-linear, this  none-linearity play an insignificant role in normal value resistors where deviation is very small, but become troublesome for high resistance bridges where the deviation of resistors may be very large )
 - Sensitivity of the bridge is precisely known(100uV/ppm or 1mV/ppm) and does not vary with battery voltage.
 - Batteries are all ground referenced! This avoid so many troubles as encountered in float batteries design. It's also possible to implement a mains power supply or external power supply.
 - The output is the deviation of Rx (or Rs), making it easy to use a very cheap meter to distinguish sub-ppm level.
 - The bridge is simple in design, small in size, easy to construct, cheap to make.
 - Potable, stand-alone use, no other expensive or bulky equipment necessary such as programmable calibrators or electrometer.
 - Most of all, ultra-precision. Common error sources have been identified and handled accordingly.

Sensitivity analysis
This refereed to the determination of how every components affect the output, thus used for components selection.
Step one, formula the output equation
The voltage at point A, Va=Rsx*Isx=Rsx*(Id-Ik1)=Rsx*(-Vb/Rd-Ik1)
where Vb and Id is the voltage and current of the dummy resistor, Ik1 is the leakage convert to point D.
The voltage at point C, Vc=R2*(Rsx*(-Vb/Rd-Ik1)-Vb)/(R1+R2)+Vb+R2*Ik2
where  Ik2 is the leakage convert to point C
The output voltage Vout=(R4/R3+1)*(Vc-Vos)

Step two, analyse how each component affect the output.
This can be done by one of the following three ways
 - partial differential, and calculate
 - calculate in Excel
 - simulation
I've done all three and the results are exactly the same as follow:

Column 1 is the component name, column 2 is the amount of output change by certain change in the component. As can be seen that 1fA change of Ib of U1 will make the output change by 1uV, 1pA of Ib of U2 changes output by 4.4uV.
Column 4 is similar to 2 except the output unit changed to ppm.
Column 5 is similar to 4 but on condition that deviation of Rsx at 10000ppm(0.1%)

Step three, select components according to the above results and the requirements.
As can be seen that R1, R2 and Rd are very important, choose the best you have.
Although Ik1 affect the output very little, it is for Rsx=100 Meg, will be 1000 times worse if Rsx=100G. In order to measure 100G, a good electro-meter type opamp is necessary.
Similarly, a chopper-stabilized opamp is used for U2.

Step four, characterize the performance of the bridge according to the components used for different operation mode.
For substitution, because the swap time usually short ranging from several seconds to not more than one minutes, the value change of components will be very small compared to noise and interference.
For comparison or direct measurement, if the calibration gap is longer than hours, the tempco of components will play important roles for errors. There will be aging effects as well.

Detailed schematics and more explanation

Guarding and switching circuit added. Red path is the high voltage output(point A in simplified), permanently connected to inner conductors and middle shields of the two triax sockets of Rs and Rx. Outer shields are connected to ground(not drawn). Middle shields provide the guarding and the potential are exact the same as inner conductors. Rsg is the internal guarding resistor of Rs(may or may not present, won't affect the guarding in both cases), Rxg is similar. The lower part of the guarding resistors are connected to ground.  The inner conductor of lower part of Rs and Rx will be either connect to ground or connected to point D(as in simplified diagram). In both cases, the potentials are all at ground level, making the these resistors power-up through out the test period except in very small transit gaps where Rs and Rx are switched. These power-up-all-the-time conditions are very important for high resistors where capacitor charge time and dielectric absorption time cannot be ignored.
Dummy resistors can be externally connected just like Rs or Rx, or can be selected internally from a group of seven resistors.
Purple line is the critical path which any leakage should be controlled to 1E-15 level if a 1T resistor is to be tested. The switch is well tested to have insulation resistance of greater than 1E13, and all the terminals and outer metal shield are all zero or very near to zero potential, forming a natural guarding. Rp protected U1 during Rs and Rx switching and there is a guarding ring on both sides of the PCB.   
Cf is the feedback capacitor to obtain stability in the presence of input capacitor, which should be carefully selected for ultra-low leakage(less than Ib is preferred at 2V). Four possible types should be considered: polystyrene, NP0/C0G, PTFE and air.
R2 is the starting current provider for this high voltage PS2513, and R11 increase the loop gain above 1 to avoid oscillation.
The value of the upper-right arm of the bridge is 400k, making use of my available ten 40k AE foil resistors. It is also switchable to 200k and 40k making the test voltage 50V and 10V.
The value of the lower-right arm of the bridge is 40k, consisting of a 40k//7.5M plus an adjustable string of 500 Ohm 10-turn pot etc.
Battery two(Batt2) is charged thru connector V_In2 and a reverse protection diode D2, but is still measurable thru the same socket because R7 is present. Similarly, Batt1 can be charged and monitored by V_In1, D1, and R6.

There are some weak points though, mainly concern the leakage:
 - Ib of U1, typical 10fA, max 25fA for LTC6001A, may further reduced of better opamp is used such as ADA4530-1.
 - Leakage of Cf. The requirement for Cf may change for different external resistors. It is very difficult to make a low leakage switchable Cf.
 - leakage of the dummy resistor switch.

Test Range



Low voltage power supply

Five 18650 cells inside the case provide the power. By use of HT Low power LDOs to achieve +4.2V, -3.0V and -12.8V.
+4.2V is used for LED display and is simulated by dummy load RL1.
+4.2V and -3.0V are used by opamp U1 and U2, and is simulated by dummy load RL2.
A 10V precision shuntable reference LT1021-10 is power by a constant current source of 2mA(by 2SK170 JFET and a 100 Ohm resistor) providing -10V necessary for low-side of the bridge(simulated by dummy load RL3).

Internal dummy resistor and switch
It's convenient to use internal dummies. The requirement for dummy resistors are short-time stability and not too much deviation.

It's peculiar to place 1M at the end because I want a dummy of 2Meg in order to test my 20Meg resistors to assemble my 100Meg standard, which is the starting point of this high resistance bridge any way.  I may add more dummy resistors than charted such as 1G, 10G if the test shows good results.

Output and Adjustment

The output is split into three part:
 - Record out.
 - LED display(not drown)
 - An analog meter. This is for the quick adjustment.

I modified the coarse adjustment pot to a multi-turn so that to extend the applicable Rs. Ideally it should be a 330 Ohm but I only have 1k, has to parallel another 500 ohm.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2016, 07:07:48 am by zlymex »
 
The following users thanked this post: quarks, Vgkid

Offline zlymexTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 556
  • Country: cn
Re: I plan to build a high resistance bridge
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2016, 02:36:50 am »
Mini survey of existing high precision high resistance measurement

1. Guarded Wheatstone Bridge
This is the fundamental way, adopted by NBS/NIST long time ago.

Detector D is a commercial electrometer, it must be ground referenced, therefore the V must be floated.

Cons:
- Manual balancing, resulting complexity, multiple leakage points and time consuming
- Float battery, difficult to change voltage, multi-leakage path, and need guard drives(high voltage, may be separately powered)
- A detector is needed, outside the bridge box
- Measurement range only upto 10G

Ref: NIST Technical Note 1298, NIST Measurement Service for DC Standard Resistors, pp.20
http://www.nist.gov/manuscript-publication-search.cfm?pub_id=17477
(Note: this technical note is obsolete so is the Guarded Wheatstone Bridge)


2. Modified Wheatstone Bridge('active-arm' bridge)

Replacing two resistor arms of A and B from the above circuit by two programmable voltage sources.
The apparent advantage of this configuration is automatic balancing. By reading from D, the system know the status and adjust V1 and/or V2 accordingly, and read the output D again, adjust again if necessary.
Another good thing about this method is the total control of V1 and V2, making the very large arm ratio such as 1000:1 possible, and free adjustment of test voltage from very low to 1000V. 
NIST adopt this method soon it come out and still use it now. 
MI 6600A and 6650A are the commercial versions.

Cons:
- Have to use bulky, expensive commercial voltage generators(programmable DC calibrators) and a electrometer as the detector.
- Linearity depends on voltage generators
- Slow to operate as the time constant is large and takes several loop cycles to reach to the final value.
- Need a dedicated software(balancing algorithm)

Ref: Automated Guarded Bridge for Calibration of Multimegohm Standard Resistors from 10M to 1T
www.nist.gov/calibrations/upload/automated-guarded-bridge.pdf
NIST Technical Note 1458, NIST Measurement Service for DC Standard Resistors
http://www.nist.gov/calibrations/upload/tn1458.pdf


3. Binary Voltage Divider

Adopted from Cutkosky Divider and commercialized as 6000B by MI.
Measurement is automatic.
Not very good for resistors higher than 1G as the accuracy of 1G measurement already gone up to 5ppm.

Ref: Resistance Measurements Systems w/Sub PPM Accuracy - 1u? to 1G?
http://www.mintl.com/media/pdfs/tech/1uohm_1Gohm_insert.pdf
http://www.mintl.com/media/pdfs/6000B.pdf

4. DMM based

The advantage of this method is the ease of construction, by making use of existing equipment in a lab such as DC source and an DMM. However, it suffered from leakage of the DMM making it difficult to measure high resistance such as above 10G.



There is an articel 'North American One Gigaohm Interlaboratory Comparison 2006–2008'
http://www.ohm-labs.com/pdfs/1%20G%20ILC%20Paper.pdf
Where table 7 lists the methods to test 1G resistor used by the participants.


There are 8 MI 6000B(30.4ppm),  3 Active Arm Bridges(13.5ppm), only 1 Wheatstone Bridge(67.9ppm), 1 DMM based(39ppm), 2 Teraohmmeter related(313.7ppm).
Brackets in ppm are the averaged uncertainty for that method. As can be seen that,  Active Arm Bridge has the best uncertainty, and the Teraohmmeter method is the worset.


Building materials, components, purchase/ arrivals

Ordered the case, will be arrive next week, size 260mm by 185mm by 96mm, smaller than a A4 paper, but big enough for the bridge. I'll use it in table top manner.

Ordered the LED meter as well. It is a 0.2V full scale voltmeter. I'll try modifying the decimal point when it arrives.
(the LED meter in the photo cannot display negative number)
2016-4-4 Panel meter arrived, display negative OK.
2016-4-7 Case arrived. Will keep me busy on this week end.

to be cont......
« Last Edit: April 25, 2016, 05:04:19 pm by zlymex »
 
The following users thanked this post: quarks, chickenHeadKnob

Offline zlymexTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 556
  • Country: cn
Re: I plan to build a high resistance bridge
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2016, 02:39:22 am »
Building progress

2016-4-2, Power supply board done and tested.
2016-4-4, Main board done but not tested.
2016-4-5, Shift the decimal point 3 digits so that it display 1999.9 instead of 1.9999. Not a very easy task though because the display is multiplexed. I have to add a transistor.
2016-4-7, Main board tested together with the power supply board and the display, functionally okay.
2016-4-9, Power supply board modified: add battery protection and auto on/off for hi-voltage.
2016-4-9, Batteries finished. One is 18V of five 18650 cells, the other is 125V of 32 lithium cells. Both packs are triple plus insulated(extra for cells, external wrapping and PTFE sheet).
2016-4-10, Panel almost finished.

to be cont......
« Last Edit: April 10, 2016, 11:44:01 pm by zlymex »
 
The following users thanked this post: quarks, chickenHeadKnob

Offline zlymexTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 556
  • Country: cn
Re: I plan to build a high resistance bridge
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2016, 02:40:44 am »
Testing/modification/improvements

Some insulation resistance in Ohms, measured with 1V voltage.

 A. 3.9pF ceramic capacitor?5E13
 B. 20pF ceramic capacitor, >1E14, dielectric absorption
 C. Base and emitter revere current of 9014 BJT, 0.03pA
 C. Base and emitter forward 0.1V biased current, 0.6pA
(current of base and collector is larger than the above in both directions)
 D. Cat 5 twisted pair, >1E14, dielectric absorption
 E. Cat 6 twisted pair, 5E12
 F. Piece of dual wire, 5E11
 G. An very old vari-capacitor, severe dielectric absorption
 H. A potential meter/Varistor, terminal and case, 5E11
 I. Adjacent tracks of veroboard, with flux 1E11, flux cleaned 1E13, warshed with alcohol 5E14.



to be cont......
« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 05:48:10 am by zlymex »
 
The following users thanked this post: quarks

Offline zlymexTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 556
  • Country: cn
Re: I plan to build a high resistance bridge
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2016, 02:42:38 am »
Reserved for future use.
to be cont......

(The End)
 

Offline Vgkid

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2710
  • Country: us
Re: I plan to build a high resistance bridge
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2016, 04:15:57 am »
Bookmarked, looking forward to this.
If you own any North Hills Electronics gear, message me. L&N Fan
 

Offline zlymexTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 556
  • Country: cn
Re: I plan to build a high resistance bridge
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2016, 06:12:36 am »
You might want to check out the ADA4530-1...  WAY better specs than anything else available, and made for your application...  (Bonus: built-in guard buffer too!)

-Ken
Thanks very much, looks superb, I already start looking for them. The price is a bit high in China though probably because its a new IC.
In the mean time, I'll test the bridge by LMC6001A(<25fA) or LMC6062(10fA typical), which will be suffice for <100G comparison.
 

Offline quarks

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 874
  • Country: de
Re: I plan to build a high resistance bridge
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2016, 07:15:57 pm »
Bookmark  :-+
 

Offline mmagin

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 610
  • Country: us
Re: I plan to build a high resistance bridge
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2016, 07:54:50 pm »
Interesting. I'm new to this kind of nuttery, but this seems really similar to an old differential voltmeter.  (I recently got a beautifully restored Fluke 801 which i've been playing with.)

Is input bias current or input offset voltage more important?  I would have naively gone for a good chopper-stabilized opamp.  I guess it's just a choice between which contributes the least to total errors.
 

Offline zlymexTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 556
  • Country: cn
Re: I plan to build a high resistance bridge
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2016, 12:36:11 am »
Interesting. I'm new to this kind of nuttery, but this seems really similar to an old differential voltmeter.  (I recently got a beautifully restored Fluke 801 which i've been playing with.)

Is input bias current or input offset voltage more important?  I would have naively gone for a good chopper-stabilized opamp.  I guess it's just a choice between which contributes the least to total errors.
Yes, I had an old differential voltmeter too(Fluke 887), where they use known resistors plus current(KVDivider) to null the unknown voltage, while here we use known divider to null the unknown resistor.

That is a very good question concerting the selection of opamp(used as null meter) that I've missed out.

In the old days people use bridges to measure low resistance such as Thomas one ohm, they use Galvanometer which could be regarded as opamps with very large Ib but very small Vos. On the contrary, high resistance bridges need the opposite, that is, opamps of very small Ib is preferred in order to distinguish the very small current flow thru the test resistor. As for the requirement for Vos, it depends very much on the resolution, and the resolution depends on the voltage used in the bridge, the sensitivity of the bridge, and most of all, the requirement for precision. Old commercial null detectors(such as in Fluke 845 and Keithley 155, also in many differential voltmeters) use real chopper amplifiers because there is no opamp at that time to satisfy the requirement of both low Ib and low Vos at the same time.

In the case of electrometers, such as Keithley 610C and 617, where a very small current must be detected, they employ JFET pairs. However, Keithley use LMC6001(I use it too in my schematics) in their more modern model 6517.

It's interesting that I read some manuals yesterday on Siemens analog multimeters. They made different models for low current and low voltage separately,  one is called uA MULTIZET(for low current) the other is called mV MULTIZET(for low voltage).  This is a clear indication that low voltage and low current cannot be easily satisfied at the same time.

As for a chopper-stabilized opamp, the very small Vos(uV range) make it ideal for precision bridges. However, the Ib is a bit large, not good for Giga-ohms or above, but good enough for lower impedance detection. DiligentMinds.com suggested a very good opamp(ADA4530-1) for electrometers and with good enough property on Vos than can also be used for null detectors.
 
The following users thanked this post: mmagin

Offline mmagin

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 610
  • Country: us
Re: I plan to build a high resistance bridge
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2016, 01:15:47 am »
In the old days people use bridges to measure low resistance such as Thomas one ohm, they use Galvanometer which could be regarded as opamps with very large Ib but very small Vos. On the contrary, high resistance bridges need the opposite, that is, opamps of very small Ib is preferred in order to distinguish the very small current flow thru the test resistor. As for the requirement for Vos, it depends very much on the resolution, and the resolution depends on the voltage used in the bridge, the sensitivity of the bridge, and most of all, the requirement for precision. Old commercial null detectors(such as in Fluke 845 and Keithley 155, also in many differential voltmeters) use real chopper amplifiers because there is no opamp at that time to satisfy the requirement of both low Ib and low Vos at the same time.

I never thought of it like this before, but is Ib actually a common-mode current?  i.e. even with a bridge in balance and no voltage difference between the + and - inputs of a fet input pair,  it wants to sink (or source) the same amount of current from both inputs?  What I'm getting at -- even though in theory a bridge in balance has no current flow from the left side to the right side, with a real-world fet opamp connected, Ib does matter?
 

Offline zlymexTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 556
  • Country: cn
Re: I plan to build a high resistance bridge
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2016, 07:55:51 am »
I never thought of it like this before, but is Ib actually a common-mode current?  i.e. even with a bridge in balance and no voltage difference between the + and - inputs of a fet input pair,  it wants to sink (or source) the same amount of current from both inputs?  What I'm getting at -- even though in theory a bridge in balance has no current flow from the left side to the right side, with a real-world fet opamp connected, Ib does matter?
In the old days yes, when the bridge is balanced, you connect a passive detector like Galvanometer(just a coil inside), there would be no current. However it's different for an opamp, you have to provide the current Ib whether it is sink or source, whether the bridge is in balance or not.

There is one instance, where the bridge is a kind of balanced(left two arms are equal to right two arms), you connect an opamp(or not) with positive input to one side and negative input to the other side, the bridge is still balanced. But in practice, This kind of connection of opamps seldom happen, they either tight one input to the ground or being compensated like that in my simplified schematics.

In the case of substitution method in a bridge circuit(like my simplified schematics), the Ib of the opamp(it does affect the bridge balance) will have very little influence on the final result, owing to the fact that Ib will affect Rs and Rx in the same manner, and will be canceled out in theory.
 
The following users thanked this post: mmagin

Online Kleinstein

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 14192
  • Country: de
Re: I plan to build a high resistance bridge
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2016, 11:20:31 am »
With conventional OPs the bias current is about the same with both inputs, but not exactly. So with symmetric impedance some compensation is possible. With AZ OPs however the bias is approximately opposite for both inputs.

An alternative to the ADA4530 could be the LMP7721.
 
The following users thanked this post: mmagin

Offline zlymexTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 556
  • Country: cn
Re: I plan to build a high resistance bridge
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2016, 11:54:18 am »
An alternative to the ADA4530 could be the LMP7721.
The current noise of LMP7721 is much larger than that of ADA4530-1 or LMC6001 making it difficult to use in high source impedance circuit. I've asked NS whether it is a typo in the datasheet and they say no, the low Ib of LMP7721 is achieved by cancellation from another current of roughly the same value but different sign, the noise will be even increased after the cancellation.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 12:12:30 pm by zlymex »
 

Offline Vgkid

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2710
  • Country: us
Re: I plan to build an ultra-precision high resistance bridge
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2016, 05:37:12 am »
Some other research...
That was an interesting read, thanks.
If you own any North Hills Electronics gear, message me. L&N Fan
 

Offline zlymexTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 556
  • Country: cn
Re: I plan to build an ultra-precision high resistance bridge
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2016, 06:38:46 am »
Some other research...
Thanks for the paper. It is indeed very important to maintain point A to virtually zero. I've modified my schematic just for that This eliminate the guard drive as well.  I won't use two voltages because it too complex to put them into a small box.
 

Offline zlymexTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 556
  • Country: cn
Update: panel almost finished.
I like analog display which will speed up the adjustment process. However, this gives an ancient looks and makes the power switch rather weird. 
 

Offline tronde

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 307
  • Country: no
Where did you find those negative capable LED-meters? I have several 4.5 digit, but they are all positive-only.
 

Offline zlymexTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 556
  • Country: cn
 
The following users thanked this post: tronde

Offline zlymexTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 556
  • Country: cn
Update: panel finished.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 05:37:59 pm by zlymex »
 

Offline mmagin

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 610
  • Country: us
I love those locking, turn-counting knobs!  I have an Austron 1250 which has one for the fine frequency adjust.
 

Offline TiN

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4543
  • Country: ua
    • xDevs.com
Now we talking. Much better this way, that power button was really out of wack.
Nice build quality too, wish to see more photos. I can provide hosting for hi-res photos if you need.
YouTube | Metrology IRC Chat room | Let's share T&M documentation? Upload! No upload limits for firmwares, photos, files.
 

Offline AF6LJ

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2902
  • Country: us
That looks really nice.  :-+
Sue AF6LJ
 

Online Dr. Frank

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2384
  • Country: de
Lymex,

wow, I really like that Retro look!

Your circuitry also, of course!

Frank
 

Offline Vgkid

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2710
  • Country: us
Nice job. Has a very 60-70's industrial look to it.
If you own any North Hills Electronics gear, message me. L&N Fan
 

Offline zlymexTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 556
  • Country: cn
Thanks very much everybody for the compliments. I've updated the main posts for the completely new schematics(and the theory of operations). I also included a mini survey of existing high precision high resistance measurement method in the second post.
 

Offline zlymexTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 556
  • Country: cn
Re: I plan to build a high resistance bridge
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2016, 06:15:34 am »
You might want to check out the ADA4530-1...  WAY better specs than anything else available, and made for your application...  (Bonus: built-in guard buffer too!)

-Ken
After more than one month's waiting, the mail arrived today. ^-^

Another separate mail of NP0/C0G capacitors also arrived, some will be used for the switchable feedback capacitors for the amplifier.

« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 06:29:49 am by zlymex »
 

Online HighVoltage

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5470
  • Country: de
Very nice project.
How did you bring the text on to the surface?
There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can not.
 

Offline zlymexTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 556
  • Country: cn
Very nice project.
How did you bring the text on to the surface?
Thanks. I color printed everything on a self-adhesive A4 paper with background scanned from the aluminium cover. Then I covered it with a water proof, transparent sticker. Lastly, remove the back paper and align it very carefully with the cover(already with all the holes) and tick to it.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf