Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services

[Villain]

Yes, and Keysight is trying to make that criterion of traceability (which is about procedures) into paperwork, as it always used to be. You are paying for papers and don't know what they give you anyway. Some days ago i saw the calibration certificate of a new Keysight 3458A and as far as i remember there was absolutely no technical info in it - i mean no measurement results, no info about actual procedures performed.

Regards, Dieter

What you are referring to is the certificate that is delivered from the keysight factory with the shipment of the unit if the customer does not buy any calibration with the unit. Of course the unit still is calibrated, but you do not get the data. Only if you buy one of the many calibration options you will get the measurement results with the unit.

[bd139]

I got measurements with my U1241C about 3 years ago…

[TimFox]

I took a quick look at the Keysight used-equipment ad at the top of the page, indicating UK as my country, and saw nothing about this issue, although there was a standard statement about conforming to US export-regulation requirements.

[Arhigos]

Some days ago i saw the calibration certificate of a new Keysight 3458A and as far as i remember there was absolutely no technical info in it - i mean no measurement results, no info about actual procedures performed.

Regards, Dieter

There is different levels of calibration. Yes, cheapest perfomance check without data will get you a certificate that says unit passed  perfomance test, or unit failed perfomance test. Procedure name should be a part of certificate anyway.

If you pay extra $$ you will receive certificate with data.

[Mr. Scram]

Considering more than one big brand manufacturer has similar ideas, we might conclude that the response to market pressure by cheaper oriental manufacturers is to reduce service down to a similar nonexistent level for part of their customers. What an odd response. I'm not sure what kind of brilliant market analysis has lead to these decisions but it sure does look like a good way to have your brand's relevance and recognition evaporate very quickly. Believing this would not impact the professional side of things seems rather naive. These are not two discrete and separate worlds.

[bd139]

Very good point. The software industry is way ahead of this for once. If you compare to the proliferation of open source software that is. The arrogant vendors first ignored the competition. Then they got eaten by it. I suppose the next stage is that the big brand manufacturers will stop you buying it and only lease their products to you for a monthly fee while cutting costs on support and harping on about capex vs opex. Eventually they'll have to audit customers and end up employing an army of goons to enforce licenses 

[bdunham7]

I suppose the next stage is that the big brand manufacturers will stop you buying it and only lease their products to you for a monthly fee while cutting costs on support and harping on about capex vs opex. Eventually they'll have to audit customers and end up employing an army of goons to enforce licenses 

That was the last stage.  The current stage is bilking investors with fairy tales about how hard they can screw their customers and still retain their business.

[TimFox]

Before I retired, my employer had usual calibration practices,with external services.  I needed to measure a large (roughly 36 in) dimension, so I borrowed the largest calipers from our machine shop.  I wanted to estimate the accuracy, but the calibration sheet just said “Yes”.

[bd139]

I suppose the next stage is that the big brand manufacturers will stop you buying it and only lease their products to you for a monthly fee while cutting costs on support and harping on about capex vs opex. Eventually they'll have to audit customers and end up employing an army of goons to enforce licenses 

That was the last stage.  The current stage is bilking investors with fairy tales about how hard they can screw their customers and still retain their business.

Ahh yes the Fortive business model 

[porker1972]

You're going to be in for a shock if you read the terms of sale for most electronics distributors. They are almost all business to business only. They don't do B2C so consumer protection law doesn't apply. How do they get around that? Well, let's look at their T&Cs:

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/generalDisplay.html?id=aboutRS/terms-conditions-of-sale
1.5 RS is a business-to-business supplier. The RS website is intended for use by business customers and not by private individuals acting as consumers (“Consumers”)....

https://uk.farnell.com/terms-of-purchase#2
2. Business customers
The Company is a business to business supplier. The Catalogue and any specialogues and other product brochures produced by the Company are intended for use by business customers and not consumers. By ordering, the Customer confirms that he, she or it wishes to obtain the Supplies for the purposes of his, her or its business and not as a consumer.

So if you're buying as an individual and not as a business, you're in breach of their contract that you agree to when buying from them. Good luck fighting that one!

[mikeselectricstuff]

You're going to be in for a shock if you read the terms of sale for most electronics distributors. They are almost all business to business only. They don't do B2C so consumer protection law doesn't apply. How do they get around that? Well, let's look at their T&Cs:

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/generalDisplay.html?id=aboutRS/terms-conditions-of-sale
1.5 RS is a business-to-business supplier. The RS website is intended for use by business customers and not by private individuals acting as consumers (“Consumers”)....

https://uk.farnell.com/terms-of-purchase#2
2. Business customers
The Company is a business to business supplier. The Catalogue and any specialogues and other product brochures produced by the Company are intended for use by business customers and not consumers. By ordering, the Customer confirms that he, she or it wishes to obtain the Supplies for the purposes of his, her or its business and not as a consumer.

So if you're buying as an individual and not as a business, you're in breach of their contract that you agree to when buying from them. Good luck fighting that one!

Yes but neither actually refuse to sell to you. I don't think anyone seriously expects standard "consumer" service from a trade-oriented supplier.
The issue is a supplier flat-out refusing to deal with someone who is neither a Ltd company nor VAT registered on the incorrect presumption that they are a "consumer". 

[mikeselectricstuff]

Another data point. Rapid Electronics makes no mention of excluding consumers, and their terms implicitly include them .
For example

8.1 If you purchase Goods from us via our catalogue or on the website and you are a UK/EU consumer, you are able to cancel your order with us for any reason or no reason at all within thirty (30) days following receipt of your Goods by providing us with notice.

They don't sell Keysight, but do sell Tektronix,TTi, Fluke, Flir, Keithley to name a few.

https://www.rapidonline.com/terms

The only thing they refuse to sell to non-account holders is leaded solder, due to specific legislation.

MCS also have no terms excluding consumers

[YetAnotherTechie]

If the brand representatives that lurk here could point the specific legislation that's scaring them off, maybe we could look into it to find a solution/compromise...

[tocsa120ls]

I wonder if this has something to do with Right to Repair... which is mostly relevant for private users, as any corporation will just bin the malfunctioning test gear and budget a new one (I mean look at what Shahriar fixes lately, I think the last two testers had a bad connector). Solution: don't sell to the pain-in-the-arse small customer which you will have to provide support for at least 2 years (EU law).

[mikeselectricstuff]

If the brand representatives that lurk here could point the specific legislation that's scaring them off, maybe we could look into it to find a solution/compromise...

I think they just want to avoid the requirements of legistation designed to "protect" consumers, avoid paying liability insurance that covers the stupid things that idiot consumers do, and justify the use of industrial EMC emissions limits.
I have no issue with any of that, only the way they decide whether someone is a "consumer".
A simple waiver is all that would be necessary, but big companies have to run everything through their legal dept, whose job encourages them to say "no".

[bd139]

Probably.

The key thing here is you can’t override statutory law, even in click through T&Cs, only control your supply chain, which they don’t do here. So the whole thing is moot.

If you buy something on Farnell (off account), enjoy your 6 year warranty under CRA 2015. But you might have to run it through MoneyClaim to get them to do anything.

My father found this out the hard way once and lost the goods, the money and some extra money in costs paid.

Or you can buy your stuff from a reputable manufacturer like TTi who will hand hold you through servicing a 20 year old bit of kit quite happily.

[alanambrose]

Yeah, I found this a few month's ago when I inquired about the cal of my 3458As in the UK. I still have not got round to that yet (: I wondered at the time whether it was something to do with German law and all the Keysight stuff was going through Germany? I know some German suppliers won't supply to you unless you are a legit business. Fine for me as I have a legit UK ltd co. Although I was a bit surprised.

The easiest solution is to get a small friendly legit business with a VAT #, incorporation # etc to put it through their books and just repay them the fees. You won't have much of a indemnity that way as it'll be through a third party, but you probably don't care about a guarantee on a cal service.

Alan

[Keith956]

I had a similar brush with Keysight recently. I wanted a spare part for a HP test fixture, rather than shelling out £550 or so for a new one. So I enquired from the Customer Services people in Winnersh Triangle. First they said the part was 'not for trade sale'.

I questioned why (considering it was listed as a 'replacement part' in the manual) wasn't it available? And I do have a UK registered company number for the last 3 years, albeit with a low turnover, but specifically to appear as a B2B customer. It seemed odd, as only a year ago I'd successfully got a 34401A rear panel replacement from them with no fuss.

They relented after a while, and asked me to submit a PO. I did, for 2 of the parts, thinking a spare would be useful. Only to be told by Keysight that I only had permission for 1! Who, I wonder, decides all of this? Does each order go through some official whose job is to yay or nay the request?

Anyhow after resubmitting the PO, and being phoned for a credit card number for payment in advance, about 3 weeks later the part arrived from Germany. In a sizeable box about 40cmx40cm, for a 1cm part...

A few days later I got an email survey request on how my dealings with the customer centre went. So of course I mentioned that I had specified many 100k$ worth of HP products over the years and up till now had always felt that HP/Agilent/Keysight's after sales support was a differentiator, and without that I'd just buy Chinese.

[mikeselectricstuff]

They relented after a while, and asked me to submit a PO. I did, for 2 of the parts, thinking a spare would be useful. Only to be told by Keysight that I only had permission for 1! Who, I wonder, decides all of this? Does each order go through some official whose job is to yay or nay the request?

If parts have limited availability, it's not necessarily unreasonable to limit purchase quantities

[Keith956]

If parts have limited availability, it's not necessarily unreasonable to limit purchase quantities

Well that may be a reason, but I somehow doubt it. Of course if they start rationing new product too I might start to believe it.

To be honest I was surprised that parts were available at all for equipment that is out of warranty. The amount of time they must spend dealing with small enquiries can't be profitable.

[zitt]

R&S and Keysight needs to listen up here...
I am a hobbyist by night... but have engineer approval/recommendations in my day job for a major fortune 500 company.

As of this moment; based upon the comments posted here...
I have no intention of EVER specifying recommending another product from either company.

You need to make this right with all your EU customers (business or individual) if you ever want me to personally recommend your products in the future.

[bd139]

Well a week of deafening silence later from keysight….

[JonM]

Presumably this is not an issue in the US, but after seeing this thread mentioned on Twitter last weekend I decided that I should call in my credit card number for my annual scope service contract on Monday. There were no issues although it is a drawn out process that shows how Keysight is not really setup to handle individuals. I started a thread on this a couple of years ago (oddly no one commented) and don't remember all the issues I reported getting the service contract setup, but the renewal process is:

1) You get an emailed quote well in advance of expiration, 2) You have to call the person who issued the quote to tell them that you want to renew, if your cc number has not changed that person can submit the renewal, 3) Since I had a new cc someone else had to call me to get the number, then he submitted a ticket to the Activation Team. On Wednesday I got the renewal documents via email. In the meantime I had to answer a SPAM phone call from Colorado in case it was a question about the renewal.

A one year service contract for a DSOX3024T is US$120 + local tax which seems quite reasonable just considering the administrative overhead. You would think that they would offer a three year contract, but (at least a couple of years ago) they explicitly stated that they only do one year contracts for individuals.

I have purchased all of my Keysight equipment from Test Equity (which also requires phone calls). I recently purchased the new EDU power supply and was going to try Keysight Direct but they first had a nine week delivery and then said that the EDU PS was only available from distributors.

Now, I can think of some lab products that could be a problem if sold to individuals. Last year I was considering the purchase of a fairly powerful laser and wondered how much trouble it was going to be. The laser company has my long time employer's logo on their Web site and I wrote a PhD thesis with "Laser" in the title, so that might have helped. However, after being pulled fully out of retirement I have no time so that was not tested.

[mjs]

One good reason for not selling or providing this kind of products or services to private customers are the consumer protection laws. I understand why we have those laws - to force companies provide some quality to people (also called voters). The downside is this kind of sometimes ridiculous limitations.

I've got my own company (similar to LLC) for hobbies. On the other hand, in Finland almost no company will check whether you're really representing a real company as long as you pay by CC / cash. I've also bought some 'professional' stuff for friends through my company every now and then - but would never do that for somebody I don't know well enough not to get me into trouble through consumer protections laws.

[TimFox]

So now we need to determine if this is a global thing or something localized to a region to maybe get around some consumer protection laws.

I'm pretty sure that this is either a result of a legitimate interpretation of a boneheaded "consumer protection" law or a boneheaded interpretation of a legitimate consumer protection law.  I don't know which law specifically, but I seriously doubt Keysight is intentionally shunning paying customers just because they don't like them.

My understanding is that it's "a legitimate interpretation of a boneheaded 'consumer protection' law." I believe there are some restrictions around "industrial equipment" [probably not the correct legal term] being sold to non-industrial parties (aka individuals). I do not know the details but @oldtestgear I'm looking into it with Peter.

It has been two weeks since this posting.  Is there any news or reply out of Keysight?