Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services

[Oldtestgear]

This warning applies to ALL customers of Keysight that are NOT either an Incorporated Business or VAT Registered.  I have a few instruments that I bought new through Keysight distributors & have never had a problem with Keysight UK untli now.
In 2018 I bought a 34470A plus a DSOX4024A (the scope thanks to a 30% trade in offer by Keysight) plus a U1241C later in the year. I get the 34470A calibrated at approximately 18 month intervals until now. This month I checked the price & then filled out the online forms to arrange collection plus get a pro forma invoice in order to pay the almost £200 cost. 

It seems that Keysight Corporate were very happy to take my money for instruments but are completely unwilling to actually supply any form of service because I am not a suitable customer for their products. I did send them an email explaining my reasons for buying their equipment plus my 40 years experience in the electronics industry.  This elicited a phone call from Germany apologising for their behaviour but still refusing to actually calibrate my 34470A.

This is the cut & paste from their message:

Dear Phil
I'm really sorry but I need to provide you with the following information as we are no longer able to service your equipment:
Keysight products are designed, manufactured, and tested for professional and industrial use. They are not designed or tested for use by Consumers. While we thank you for your interest in our products, we are unable to supply them to you nor are we able to provide support for those products.
Should you have questions, please call 0800 0260637 or send an email to contactcentre_uk@keysight.com

Best regards
Keysight Technologies UK Limited


You have been warned!
 There is a similar post in the Buy/Sell/Wanted section relating to spare parts & buying from Keysight but htis specifially relates to SERVICE & CALIBRATION.

Cheers

Phil

[perdrix]

Hmmm ... Shouldn't this be in the Test Equipment?

Either way it's appalling!

David

[chekhov]

Now people need a "Right to calibrate" 

[tggzzz]

Sigh. I used to say "HP is alive and well, but is now called Agilent Keysight". That's becoming more difficult.

Sounds like an opportunity for someone to set up a shell company

[Grandchuck]

I suppose it is very difficult to factor in 'good will' to a business model?

[tggzzz]

I suppose it is very difficult to factor in 'good will' to a business model?

That was a central part of Bill 'n' Dave's HP Way. It worked and paid dividends for decades - and allowed HP to become a large company.

[tggzzz]

On HPAK groups.io, Dr David Kirby made the interesting suggestion "So in summary, I would say if one argues with Keysight, they will probably back down. Otherwise say you are a consultant and use it professionally! You don't need to be either VAT registered or have a limited company to use something professionally."

I wonder if that would work,

[mikeselectricstuff]

So just make up a company name.

[tggzzz]

So just make up a company name.

VAT number or limited liability company number might be an impediment.

[mikeselectricstuff]

So just make up a company name.

VAT number or limited liability company number might be an impediment.

Was that actually mentioned in Keysight's Email? The OP mentions it, but was that actually stated by KS, or just an assumption?
Also, other calibration houses are available, you don't need to use Keysight to calibrate KS gear.

[TheSteve]

So now we need to determine if this is a global thing or something localized to a region to maybe get around some consumer protection laws.

[Kleinstein]

There is a chance that KS is trying to get a system of limited sales channels limited to some customers or regions. The is a chance there is still a local UK KS distributor and calibration service, just at a different company. This may be mainly a brexit related problem as handling customs gets more complicated without a VAT number.

At least for the DMM and a DSO the calibration should not be limited to KS, though it would be nice to have more competition.

Currently, with a shortage in parts I can even understand them to perfer buisiness customers: for one, there are less consumder protection laws and a company is more likely so send in the meter for calibration than a private customer.

[bdunham7]

So now we need to determine if this is a global thing or something localized to a region to maybe get around some consumer protection laws.

I'm pretty sure that this is either a result of a legitimate interpretation of a boneheaded "consumer protection" law or a boneheaded interpretation of a legitimate consumer protection law.  I don't know which law specifically, but I seriously doubt Keysight is intentionally shunning paying customers just because they don't like them. 

[bdunham7]

I'm really sorry but I need to provide you with the following information as we are no longer able to service your equipment:
Keysight products are designed, manufactured, and tested for professional and industrial use. They are not designed or tested for use by Consumers. While we thank you for your interest in our products, we are unable to supply them to you nor are we able to provide support for those products.

If you want to pursue this with them, try pointing out that they already sold the product to you and withdrawing the requisite and expected support, service and warranty after the sale is a predatory and deceptive trade practice that you believe violates UK consumer protection law.  Invite them to rectify their error before you are compelled to consult either a solicitor or the appropriate government agency. Hopefully that will make someone's head explode in the legal department.

Otherwise you need to utilize a friend with an incorporated business.  If this is truly a legal snare for them and they otherwise have good intentions, they won't care what the business is--it could be a laundromat or a TV repair shop.
 

[Conrad Hoffman]

They said for professional use. I'd make the case that you're a professional, having worked in the business for a few decades. We have some high end LCR meters here and I was appalled to find they wanted in excess of $3k to calibrate them. Each.

[Cerebus]

My guess is that they can't tell their arse from their elbows and understand the difference between professional and consumer supplies in UK law. Consumer purchases give you additional protections as far as fitness for purpose is concerned when you're 'sold' to, professionals are supposed to be competent enough to satisfy themselves as to fitness for purpose and so don't get those protections. What 'consumer' would be looking to calibrate a 7 1/2 digit DVM I really can't imagine (Yes, I know one might be a amateur, but needing a 7 1/2 digit DVM indicates the same kind of competence to make your own purchasing choices as a fully fledged professional).

It should be sufficient to say to them that you can confirm that this is a professional purchase of goods or services as far as the law is concerned. That absolves them of liability. If they are so stupid to not accept that then it's an indication that the rot has well and truly set in, and that they are no longer themselves fit for purpose. As soon as this kind of bureaucratic nonsense sets in it's time to abandon any company that adopts it as a supplier because, while the current example probably won't bite most people in the arse who are buying professionally, who knows what silly rule they are going to make up next that flushes your investment in Keysight gear down the toilet?

I wonder what Keysight think this will do to the resale value of their equipment if people get wind that spares and service are going to be unobtainable if you are arbitrarily labelled as a 'consumer' rather than a professional. Whoops, looks like people did get wind, because I would not be at all surprised if the largest concentration of purchasers of secondhand test gear on the planet are here, reading this.

I'll hazard a guess that a lot of people get to buy Keysight gear professionally because they can sell the beancounters on it having a useful resale value after they've taken the full measure of tax write downs off the taxman. I've had use of this argument myself when getting the company to shell out for a, then, frightening expensive logic analyser from HP. When the beancounters find that Siglent et al have the same specifications, a fraction of the price, and Keysight gear now has no secondary resale value I wonder how much will get bought new 'professionally' in the UK? Hey @EvilDanaherCorporation, what support will your many brands give to amateurs and students buying your kit?

I'm struck by the double stupidity of this. Surely everybody knows that the best way to build a future for a professional brand is to get it into the hands of students. One of the ways to make sure that students won't use your gear is to make sure that there's no support available if you're anything other than a employee of a tidily documented corporation with a purchase order burning a hole in your pocket.

[dietert1]

A speculation:
Imagine the ownership cost of a NIST traceable josephson array. Now imagine some hobbyist getting a perfect calibration, let's say the black edition HP 3458A and that person starts distributing precision calibration all over the world for the price of postage. In another thread i read the statement: "When i tried to get an official calibration i recognized how my private equipment was superior to the central metrology lab of my state."
That can't work. Maybe precision calibration is a value that needs supervision, similar to IP.

Regards, Dieter

[bdunham7]

It should be sufficient to say to them that you can confirm that this is a professional purchase of goods or services as far as the law is concerned. That absolves them of liability.

Without knowing the exact laws and interpretations in play, you have no idea whether that is true.  I know of cases of all sorts of goods that are legally restricted to sale only to qualified customers. The required qualifications can be a specific professional license, a general business license, a specific regulatory business license or some other very specific requirement.  Some manufacturers and wholesalers restrict their sales to businesses that have a resale license, even if the goods are not for resale. (cleaning supplies for a restaurant, e.g.)  The decision to make these restrictions can be based on legal requirements related to the products themselves, legal requirements due to the nature of the seller's business entity and licenses or simply a desire on the part of the seller to not be encumbered by the various requirements of selling direct to consumers. 

Unless you know why Keysight made this decision, you shouldn't assume idiocy or malice on their part.  My best educated guess is that they are worried about some right that has been endowed to 'consumers' by some law or decision, such as a mandatory warranty or something like that. 

[perdrix]

"... my private equipment was superior to the central metrology lab of my state."

Let me think: Fluke 732A, 3458A, Datron 4808

Yes better uncertainties than 99% of cal labs in the entire country

David

[Cerebus]

It should be sufficient to say to them that you can confirm that this is a professional purchase of goods or services as far as the law is concerned. That absolves them of liability.

Without knowing the exact laws and interpretations in play, you have no idea whether that is true.  I know of cases of all sorts of goods that are legally restricted to sale only to qualified customers. The required qualifications can be a specific professional license, a general business license, a specific regulatory business license or some other very specific requirement.  Some manufacturers and wholesalers restrict their sales to businesses that have a resale license, even if the goods are not for resale. (cleaning supplies for a restaurant, e.g.)  The decision to make these restrictions can be based on legal requirements related to the products themselves, legal requirements due to the nature of the seller's business entity and licenses or simply a desire on the part of the seller to not be encumbered by the various requirements of selling direct to consumers. 

Unless you know why Keysight made this decision, you shouldn't assume idiocy or malice on their part.  My best educated guess is that they are worried about some right that has been endowed to 'consumers' by some law or decision, such as a mandatory warranty or something like that.

And what did I say? "My guess is that they can't tell their arse from their elbows and understand the difference between professional and consumer supplies in UK law. Consumer purchases give you additional protections as far as fitness for purpose is concerned when you're 'sold' to, professionals are supposed to be competent enough to satisfy themselves as to fitness for purpose and so don't get those protections."


There are no UK laws restricting the sale of test equipment or calibration services therefore. None. Nada. Zip.

Don't call me out for an expressly stated guess and then substitute your own guess that is substantially the same, especially when I think it's fair to say that a UK resident is probably in a better position to know what laws are in play relating to the sale of goods than a resident of the USA.

[mikeselectricstuff]

There are no UK laws restricting the sale of test equipment or calibration services therefore. None. Nada. Zip.

The only actual legal restriction I can think of is the sale of leaded solder.

There are also no licensing requirements for most businesses, certainly none that are likely to be buying KS gear

KS saying that they are "unable" to supply or support their products is simply not true. They are not willing to.
Anyone can go to RS, Farnell etc., or even Keysight's own ebay store and buy their stuff.
This needs escalating.

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

So now we need to determine if this is a global thing or something localized to a region to maybe get around some consumer protection laws.

I'm pretty sure that this is either a result of a legitimate interpretation of a boneheaded "consumer protection" law or a boneheaded interpretation of a legitimate consumer protection law.  I don't know which law specifically, but I seriously doubt Keysight is intentionally shunning paying customers just because they don't like them.

My understanding is that it's "a legitimate interpretation of a boneheaded 'consumer protection' law." I believe there are some restrictions around "industrial equipment" [probably not the correct legal term] being sold to non-industrial parties (aka individuals). I do not know the details but @oldtestgear I'm looking into it with Peter.

[bdunham7]

Don't call me out for an expressly stated guess and then substitute your own guess that is substantially the same, especially when I think it's fair to say that a UK resident is probably in a better position to know what laws are in play relating to the sale of goods than a resident of the USA.

I didn't 'call out' (strong language there!) your guess regarding what particular aspect of UK consumer law may be involved.  I refuted the logic of the specific statement that I quoted.  That was not a guess, it was a definitive statement about what you think would legally constitute a 'professional' and provide the seller with absolution from liability.  I am, as you note, not a UK solicitor, but I can tell you in general that the more you know about them, the less clear such issues become.  Unless you have some basis for your assertion that a bare claim of professional status is enough to absolve a seller of all liability under UK consumer law, I'd consider that to be a rash and simplistic bit of advice in the best case.

[EEVblog]

Remember the time when Bill Hewlett himself gave a 12yo Steve Jobs the parts needed to build his oscillator?
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/what-we-can-learn-from-the-gutsy-way-steve-jobs-landed-a-job-at-hp-2015-7?r=US&IR=T

Those were the days...

[Cerebus]

Don't call me out for an expressly stated guess and then substitute your own guess that is substantially the same, especially when I think it's fair to say that a UK resident is probably in a better position to know what laws are in play relating to the sale of goods than a resident of the USA.

I didn't 'call out' (strong language there!) your guess regarding what particular aspect of UK consumer law may be involved.  I refuted the logic of the specific statement that I quoted.  That was not a guess, it was a definitive statement about what you think would legally constitute a 'professional' and provide the seller with absolution from liability.  I am, as you note, not a UK solicitor, but I can tell you in general that the more you know about them, the less clear such issues become.  Unless you have some basis for your assertion that a bare claim of professional status is enough to absolve a seller of all liability under UK consumer law, I'd consider that to be a rash and simplistic bit of advice in the best case.

Sigh. The use of 'professional' is misleading, UK law simply differentiates between 'consumer' and non-consumer sales. Section 2(3) of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 defines '“Consumer” means an individual acting for purposes that are wholly or mainly outside that individual’s trade, business, craft or profession.'. If the vendor asks "Is this for private or business use?" as the means of ascertaining whether consumer or B2B sales terms apply under the law you appear to be arguing that they shouldn't be allowed to rely on the reply.

[bdunham7]

If the vendor asks "Is this for private or business use?" as the means of ascertaining whether consumer or B2B sales terms apply under the law you appear to be arguing that they shouldn't be allowed to rely on the reply.

No, I'm saying I don't know if they can rely on that reply and I would not automatically assume that they can.  I was using the term 'consumer protection' in the broadest sense when I was speculating, but we have no idea what the basis is for the sales restrictions by Keysight.  I sort of doubt it has anything to do with expanded warranty rights or the like (although the new right-to-repair laws might be worth researching), it seems more like the sort of thing that would be the result of liability concerns where the stakes are much higher.  I hope they do explain, because AFAIK other vendors have not taken this position.  And withdrawing support from already-sold products seems particularly difficult to justify--I can't imagine them deliberately damaging their own reputation without at least thinking that they have a compelling reason.

[knapik]

Now people need a "Right to calibrate" 

I work in a calibration lab for the supplier of a lot of test equipment manufacturers and you'd be surprised just how unwilling they are to provide service manuals, calibration manuals and god forbid schematics.

[tocsa120ls]

What an odd endorsement for Tektronix.

[glosair]

Had this kind of a problem with an alarm system.

"Can I order some extra parts for my alarm system please?" "What's you BSIA number" "I don't have one, it's my alarm" "Sorry we only supply to professionals"

I did a charge back (after 2.5 years) against the company that supplied me and got my money back!

[porker1972]

This thing about sales to an individual is down to two legal problems the manufacturer can get themselves into: Public Liability Insurance and Export Licencing. Breach of these is ruinous to a company with unlimited fines and jail for executives of the companies that breach these rules. We all know there are different safety and EMC standard for industrial and consumer products, but also requirements for user manuals and other materials. The product liability insurance is based on the class of product being sold.

American companies have to certify sales so they don't go to embargoed countries or people on a restricted party list, or used in certain applications (e.g. nuclear, defence). As such, they require resellers to check sales are to legitimate businesses in that country, and verify them. (In fact the UK did this too: I was at a distributor in the 90s when I took an order for some components from an individual with an Ulster accent who wanted to collect. Shortly afterwards I got a call from a UK security agency who asked us to delay the goods so they could turn up to follow the buyer).

Distributors (mostly) also only sell to businesses - it is in part a contractual thing with their suppliers, and also as they don't want to be liable for consumer returns rights and warranty obligations. If you buy from them as an individual, you are in breach of their terms of sale!

[Oldtestgear]

Firstly, many thanks to everyone that has commented on my post. I will try to answer as many of the questions as I can. I do not want to get into a debate about the legalities of this.

FirstlyWas that actually mentioned in Keysight's Email? The OP mentions it, but was that actually stated by KS, or just an assumption?
Also, other calibration houses are available, you don't need to use Keysight to calibrate KS gear.
 

Yes, I was recommended by Keysight to be either VAT registered and /or  an incorporated business. Not in an email but in telephone conversations about the problem of being  an acceptable customer. Is this essential? No idea but it was recommended.
Other calibration housess ar available. True but how many can actually calibrate (& adjust if necessary) a 7.5 digit DMM?  I spent a while looking for an acceptable alternative based upon their declared capability. All ISO17025 test house are certified in the UK by UKAS  & full details are published on their website.  After a morning of hunting around to check the labs I was aware of & those recommended to me, the result was disappointing. The only lab I found with the declared competency was Fluke in Norwich. They would willingly calibrate it but the cost was eye wateringly high (to me anyway).

Test houses /cal. labs. work for their market sector. This is how they survive & having a modest capability is absolutey great if it fulfils the customers requirements. I am sure that there are very few csutomers that want a 7.5 diggit DMM certified by a third party  company rather than the OEM. Posiibly a wrong assumption on my part.

On HPAK groups.io, Dr David Kirby made the interesting suggestion "So in summary, I would say if one argues with Keysight, they will probably back down. Otherwise say you are a consultant and use it professionally! You don't need to be either VAT registered or have a limited company to use something professionally."

I argued & they did not back down despite an mail describing my 40 year experience in the industry.

speculation:
Imagine the ownership cost of a NIST traceable josephson array. Now imagine some hobbyist getting a perfect calibration, let's say the black edition HP 3458A and that person starts distributing precision calibration all over the world for the price of postage. In another thread i read the statement: "When i tried to get an official calibration i recognized how my private equipment was superior to the central metrology lab of my state."
That can't work. Maybe precision calibration is a value that needs supervision, similar to IP.

This is the Metrology section of the EEVBLOG. I would bet serious money that many of the  VOLT NUTS here do have a better calibration facility than many (most?) local calibration labs.  A cal lab needs to actually make money to survive & cannot waste it on facilities & equipment that does not add value to their bottom line.  Besides Keysight does calibrate their equipment for other labs. It is the natural flow down of capability.  Any hobbyist buying a black edition 3458A , & has the controlled environment to use it fully,  is either very rich or a committed VOLT NUT. My wife would just describe them as "mad". She may have a point.

My understanding is that it's "a legitimate interpretation of a boneheaded 'consumer protection' law." I believe there are some restrictions around "industrial equipment" [probably not the correct legal term] being sold to non-industrial parties (aka individuals). I do not know the details but @oldtestgear I'm looking into it with Peter.

Thanks Daniel for offering to look into this. I would stress that everyone I have dealt with at KS (UK) & KS Germany has been very pleasant & seem to have tried very hard to get this problem solved. I am deifinitely angry about the sudden block on getting a calibration without hassle but not at the messengers.

What an odd endorsement for Tektronix.

 Tektronix Uk suggested using Keithley to calibrate it ( they also recommended Fluke of course) plus a couple of other companies. Keithley are in Germany which now makes it too difficult to consider trying.

Thanks again to everyone who has posted here.

Phil

[HighVoltage]

Remember the time when Bill Hewlett himself gave a 12yo Steve Jobs the parts needed to build his oscillator?
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/what-we-can-learn-from-the-gutsy-way-steve-jobs-landed-a-job-at-hp-2015-7?r=US&IR=T

Those were the days...

Personally I had amazingly positive experience with Keysight and really thought that the HP spirit had survived. But I also got to know the opposite. Times have changed.

I have my own business in Germany and luckily I still can buy replacement parts from Keysight, as long as they are available.

Interesting thread to follow. Looking forward to see, how this one ends.
 

[tggzzz]

This thing about sales to an individual is down to two legal problems the manufacturer can get themselves into: Public Liability Insurance and Export Licencing.

I ran into the export licencing issue 30 years ago when I was an HP employee. I needed to import a munition made by HP to be used inside an HP building. The paperwork wasn't too much trouble.

Now, why was that piece of test equipment classed as a munition? I don't know, but will speculate that Ulster accents were involved

[Cerebus]

After a morning of hunting around to check the labs I was aware of & those recommended to me, the result was disappointing. The only lab I found with the declared competency was Fluke in Norwich. They would willingly calibrate it but the cost was eye wateringly high (to me anyway).

Try Calmet in Teddington (https://www.calmet.co.uk). Their UKAS accredited capabilities take them well into 7 1/1 digit territory (accredited 10V to 0.3ppm versus 34470  8+2ppm@24 hours) and they are a proper cal lab, not monkeys doing token calibrations for electrician's "testers" (sic). Not surprising really when a walk will take them to NPL where the national traceability standards are kept. No idea what their pricing is like.

[tggzzz]

Caution: since I know little about the topic, this speculation is worth what you paid for it.

As I understand it, in the UK it is entirely possible to trade as a business without a VAT number and without Companies House allocating you a number.

In that case, would Keysight be satisfied with a purchase order from "Mousetrap Consultants"?

[Cerebus]

As I understand it, in the UK it is entirely possible to trade as a business without a VAT number and without Companies House allocating you a number.

I have my own limited company that is VAT registered, and in the past I've also run a business as an unregistered sole trader so I know the ropes.

In the UK, you have to register for VAT if your turnover is, or is reasonably likely to be more than £85,000 in any year (full set of thresholds here: https://www.gov.uk/vat-registration-thresholds). Below that threshold you do not have to register for VAT, but you may register if you so choose. Once you have registered you are required to charge VAT, supply quarterly VAT returns, keep suitable formal records and obviously pay over VAT to the government that you have collected over and above the VAT that you have paid out to suppliers, so the advantage of registering and claiming input tax is offset by the records keeping and reporting requirements. Thus many people who may register but are not required to do so choose not to register. Most people will acquire the addition expense of paying a professional accountant if they opt to or are required to register for VAT.

Many, many, sole traders and partnerships run a business in the UK without forming a corporation, without registering for VAT and without being required to hold a general 'business license' as is common in the more bureaucratic parts of the world. It's very common for tradesmen like electricians and plumbers to operate a business on this basis.

There used to be an intermediate ground between being a sole trader/partnership  and running a registered company of having a Registered Business Name, but that was abolished some years ago in 1982. You only had to have a registered name if you wanted to use a trading name other than your own, other than that it was entirely optional.  I used to have a Registered Business Name back in the 70s because it allowed you to open a bank account in that name and avoid having to refer to yourself as "Jerry Mouse trading as Mousetrap Consultants" on your letterheads, invoices etc.

One requirement that is placed on electricians working as sole traders by the IET wiring regulations/BS 7671 - having test equipment that is traceably calibrated. Bit of a gotcha for them if they opt to buy Keysight test gear but Keysight will subsequently refuse to recognise them as legitimate businesses because they aren't VAT registered or haven't formed a limited liability company.

[rf-messkopf]

This warning applies to ALL customers of Keysight that are NOT either an Incorporated Business or VAT Registered.

This warning must be extended to Rohde & Schwarz as well.

Recently they terminated without any notice all accounts on their GLORIS service platform that they believe belong to private individuals. See the attached screenshot after an attempt to log in; I get "Ihr Konto ist deaktiviert." ("Your account was deactivated.") From what I hear they also no longer respond to emails from individuals.

This means that I no longer have the possibility to issue service requests or order spare parts. Even worse, I no longer have access to the download section of GLORIS. That means no user and service manuals, no firmware, no drivers, etc., unless they are linked on their public web page. This is not only a problem when it comes to older equipment, but also for newer and current equipment not all documents are publicly accessible (e.g., option manuals and service manuals).

The fact that I am no longer able to order any spares as I am unfortunate enough to count as an unimportant private individual in the eyes of R&S, my testgear effectively becomes a collection of time bombs for which I paid several 10,000 Euros.

I'm struck by the double stupidity of this. Surely everybody knows that the best way to build a future for a professional brand is to get it into the hands of students. One of the ways to make sure that students won't use your gear is to make sure that there's no support available if you're anything other than a employee of a tidily documented corporation with a purchase order burning a hole in your pocket.

I couldn't agree more. With this move the Chinese manufacturers look more and more attractive when it comes to low end and midrange gear. Add to that things like the rather mediocre newer power supplies by R&S that barely meet their specifications, and several UI blunders.

If someone from R&S is reading here, there is a saying in German: "Hochmut kommt vor dem Fall" ("arrogance goes before a fall").

[tggzzz]

That's useful information about R&S.

I haven't got any of their equipment, and now I never will.

[bdunham7]

This warning must be extended to Rohde & Schwarz as well.

Recently they terminated without any notice all accounts on their GLORIS service platform that they believe belong to private individuals.

If someone from R&S is reading here, there is a saying in German: "Hochmut kommt vor dem Fall" ("arrogance goes before a fall").

I thought it was just me or that they didn't like the fact that I inquired about a spare part (just a rear foot....) for a 9-year old CMU-200.  Their reply, by email:
   
Dear Brian *******,
There is an updated status available on your ticket 262449.
The status has changed from Waiting for Customer to Resolved.
What does this mean?
We have a proposed solution for your ticket:
no answer - no Validation - set obsolete

And when I went to log into Gloris to see the actual support ticket, I found that my account was similarly deactivated with no explanation--so I'm left with just 6 words of terse contempt.  IOW--F-U dude, you aren't our type.  For me, no big deal as the CMU-200 was a cheap spectrum analyzer/generator project for me, so I can cross them off my Christmas card list and forget about it.  If I had a more modern, support-expected instrument that I'd paid real money for, I'd go up in flames.

I've actually seen similar behavior before in a companies where I had some knowledge of what was going on, and in those cases they were aggressively "leaning" their operations so as to make the company look better for someone to acquire them.  The acquisitions happened, but the fate of the actual company operations, product line, etc was not good--they were essentially dissolved and the acquirer just took the bits they wanted.  So good luck to all of you at R&S.

[Bud]

I am sorry to see this happening, and believe me i am with you, as i am in the same boat in terms of using aftermarket equipment, but this is really just seems to getting back to how it was before companies started onboarding individuals. There was no access to parts back then , when was it, before mid-2000 or something ( could had been earlier than that). In fact i was stunned when big boys like Agilent started working with individuals, it was like - "really? I can't beleive i can order stuff now!"

So what is happening now may represent a shift in paradigm back to the original model, after some years of trying to get engage private individuals and non- incorporated small businesses. Perhaps that did not improve the bottom line to the brands.
As to me, i am coming fro the old school when i did not expect to be dependent on Big Boys support, so frankly i give no sh!t to this change, i have never been depended on it.

[mendip_discovery]

This is very odd behaviour but not unheard of. I once had to repair a crimp tool for a customer, I ordered the parts (a spring) from Tyco and did the repair. A few months later I needed another, they wouldn't sell me a spring, I had to send it to their UK repair centre for £200 for a £10 spring. I work for a calibration lab and that has always annoyed me when we have to send to a repair centre.

I would love to know the reasoning behind the shift away from private individuals as customers. I wonder if there is some daft law change (DPA?) that means that they can't hold data for the public on a business system for the risk of getting done big time.

I currently send my Agilent to a firm down on the cost but their turnaround time is annoying so I am looking elsewhere, I might go for CMR as they have always been good to me. I may have to dig into the Unc as that is what heavily dictates my own Unc Budget. My plan was to go to Keysight but if they are being dicks I would prefer not to send them money.

[bdunham7]

So what is happening now may represent a shift in paradigm back to the original model, after some years of trying to get engage private individuals and non- incorporated small businesses.

I think a lot of other things changed between then and now.  I don't recall ever not being able to get something from various big companies, but for many of them you had to do it through a dealer.  Service manuals and parts lists were published, but weren't available on the internet since it basically didn't exist yet.  I think the direct support model emerged because of the shift from dealers that offered support (remember the term Value Added Reseller from when HP was still one company?) to volume discount distributors.  There may have been very highly specialized equipment manufacturers that didn't want to deal with some hobbyist that happened to get hold of a random bit of their product, but I don't recall any examples.

Now you may find companies that simply have no real support to offer to anyone, or ones that have been acquired, reorganized or simply atrophied and don't have anything for their former--or even current--product lines.  But telling actual current, paying customers to go away seems outrageous, especially for a company that promotes its used and refurbished products on eBay. 

[TimFox]

Does Keysight do this to individuals in the US?

[thinkfat]

A speculation:
Imagine the ownership cost of a NIST traceable josephson array. Now imagine some hobbyist getting a perfect calibration, let's say the black edition HP 3458A and that person starts distributing precision calibration all over the world for the price of postage. In another thread i read the statement: "When i tried to get an official calibration i recognized how my private equipment was superior to the central metrology lab of my state."
That can't work. Maybe precision calibration is a value that needs supervision, similar to IP.

Regards, Dieter

Said hobbyist would not be accredited as being part of a traceable calibration chain. The service might technically be perfect but it would not matter to anyone who actually needs to have, and provide, a paper trail as proof.

[dietert1]

Yes, and Keysight is trying to make that criterion of traceability (which is about procedures) into paperwork, as it always used to be. You are paying for papers and don't know what they give you anyway. Some days ago i saw the calibration certificate of a new Keysight 3458A and as far as i remember there was absolutely no technical info in it - i mean no measurement results, no info about actual procedures performed.

Regards, Dieter

[bdunham7]

Does Keysight do this to individuals in the US?

From the terms and conditions posted on their eBay store:

For EU customers: Keysight products are designed
manufactured, and tested for professional and industrial
use. They are not designed or tested for use by Consumers.
 While we thank you for your interest in our products,
we are unable to supply them to you.

It seems pretty clear that they have an EU-specific concern.  Appears to not affect the USA, although it also appears that they haven't been informed about Brexit yet...

[mikeselectricstuff]

Does Keysight do this to individuals in the US?

From the terms and conditions posted on their eBay store:

For EU customers: Keysight products are designed, manufactured, and tested for professional and industrial use. They are not designed or tested for use by Consumers. While we thank you for your interest in our products, we are unable to supply them to you.

Appears to not affect the USA, although it also appears that they haven't been informed about Brexit yet...

Does Ebay allow terms like that ?

[bd139]

Interesting thread.

I think people (and at Keysight) need to read up on the Consumer Rights Act 2015. When the goods are transferred to a consumer by definition the legislation is enforceable. There is no secondary contract or terms here and it is binding. You can't assign a purpose past the function of the device. You can however pull all your products off Farnell, RS, CPC, ebay and choose not to sell them to consumers and only direct for business. And of course we know what a shit show that'd be considering Keysight UK couldn't even get their Spanish payment handling division to call me to take payment for some knobs a year or so ago.

For premium prices, we expect premium service regardless of who we are for customers. The IT industry learned a long time ago that you need to treat private customers well because they're the professionals doing things in their spare time. When someone turns up and says "hey we need a tool to solve problem X" the last thing you want to be told from your engineers is "Keysight are dicks" which is what the presentation is here.  There's a huge pile of corporate corpses due to that one. I'm doing my best to murder a company now for being difficult with me. In fact I take pride in such things.

Chinese vendors looking good here. Most of the products are cheaper than a Keysight calibration so you can just throw them away and buy another one 

Edit: also Keysight might want to remove all those trendy YouTube videos targeting "makers" who are not professional engineers if their policy is to not sell to them.

[tggzzz]

Edit: also Keysight might want to remove all those trendy YouTube videos targeting "makers" who are not professional engineers if their policy is to not sell to them.

Add the appropriate snark to each of those videos.

[tggzzz]

There are many Keysight adverts at the top of this forum's pages.

If they won't sell to private people on this forum, why are the adverts there, and are they appropriate?

[Villain]

Yes, and Keysight is trying to make that criterion of traceability (which is about procedures) into paperwork, as it always used to be. You are paying for papers and don't know what they give you anyway. Some days ago i saw the calibration certificate of a new Keysight 3458A and as far as i remember there was absolutely no technical info in it - i mean no measurement results, no info about actual procedures performed.

Regards, Dieter

What you are referring to is the certificate that is delivered from the keysight factory with the shipment of the unit if the customer does not buy any calibration with the unit. Of course the unit still is calibrated, but you do not get the data. Only if you buy one of the many calibration options you will get the measurement results with the unit.

[bd139]

I got measurements with my U1241C about 3 years ago…

[TimFox]

I took a quick look at the Keysight used-equipment ad at the top of the page, indicating UK as my country, and saw nothing about this issue, although there was a standard statement about conforming to US export-regulation requirements.

[Arhigos]

Some days ago i saw the calibration certificate of a new Keysight 3458A and as far as i remember there was absolutely no technical info in it - i mean no measurement results, no info about actual procedures performed.

Regards, Dieter

There is different levels of calibration. Yes, cheapest perfomance check without data will get you a certificate that says unit passed  perfomance test, or unit failed perfomance test. Procedure name should be a part of certificate anyway.

If you pay extra $$ you will receive certificate with data.

[Mr. Scram]

Considering more than one big brand manufacturer has similar ideas, we might conclude that the response to market pressure by cheaper oriental manufacturers is to reduce service down to a similar nonexistent level for part of their customers. What an odd response. I'm not sure what kind of brilliant market analysis has lead to these decisions but it sure does look like a good way to have your brand's relevance and recognition evaporate very quickly. Believing this would not impact the professional side of things seems rather naive. These are not two discrete and separate worlds.

[bd139]

Very good point. The software industry is way ahead of this for once. If you compare to the proliferation of open source software that is. The arrogant vendors first ignored the competition. Then they got eaten by it. I suppose the next stage is that the big brand manufacturers will stop you buying it and only lease their products to you for a monthly fee while cutting costs on support and harping on about capex vs opex. Eventually they'll have to audit customers and end up employing an army of goons to enforce licenses 

[bdunham7]

I suppose the next stage is that the big brand manufacturers will stop you buying it and only lease their products to you for a monthly fee while cutting costs on support and harping on about capex vs opex. Eventually they'll have to audit customers and end up employing an army of goons to enforce licenses 

That was the last stage.  The current stage is bilking investors with fairy tales about how hard they can screw their customers and still retain their business.

[TimFox]

Before I retired, my employer had usual calibration practices,with external services.  I needed to measure a large (roughly 36 in) dimension, so I borrowed the largest calipers from our machine shop.  I wanted to estimate the accuracy, but the calibration sheet just said “Yes”.

[bd139]

I suppose the next stage is that the big brand manufacturers will stop you buying it and only lease their products to you for a monthly fee while cutting costs on support and harping on about capex vs opex. Eventually they'll have to audit customers and end up employing an army of goons to enforce licenses 

That was the last stage.  The current stage is bilking investors with fairy tales about how hard they can screw their customers and still retain their business.

Ahh yes the Fortive business model 

[porker1972]

You're going to be in for a shock if you read the terms of sale for most electronics distributors. They are almost all business to business only. They don't do B2C so consumer protection law doesn't apply. How do they get around that? Well, let's look at their T&Cs:

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/generalDisplay.html?id=aboutRS/terms-conditions-of-sale
1.5 RS is a business-to-business supplier. The RS website is intended for use by business customers and not by private individuals acting as consumers (“Consumers”)....

https://uk.farnell.com/terms-of-purchase#2
2. Business customers
The Company is a business to business supplier. The Catalogue and any specialogues and other product brochures produced by the Company are intended for use by business customers and not consumers. By ordering, the Customer confirms that he, she or it wishes to obtain the Supplies for the purposes of his, her or its business and not as a consumer.

So if you're buying as an individual and not as a business, you're in breach of their contract that you agree to when buying from them. Good luck fighting that one!

[mikeselectricstuff]

You're going to be in for a shock if you read the terms of sale for most electronics distributors. They are almost all business to business only. They don't do B2C so consumer protection law doesn't apply. How do they get around that? Well, let's look at their T&Cs:

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/generalDisplay.html?id=aboutRS/terms-conditions-of-sale
1.5 RS is a business-to-business supplier. The RS website is intended for use by business customers and not by private individuals acting as consumers (“Consumers”)....

https://uk.farnell.com/terms-of-purchase#2
2. Business customers
The Company is a business to business supplier. The Catalogue and any specialogues and other product brochures produced by the Company are intended for use by business customers and not consumers. By ordering, the Customer confirms that he, she or it wishes to obtain the Supplies for the purposes of his, her or its business and not as a consumer.

So if you're buying as an individual and not as a business, you're in breach of their contract that you agree to when buying from them. Good luck fighting that one!

Yes but neither actually refuse to sell to you. I don't think anyone seriously expects standard "consumer" service from a trade-oriented supplier.
The issue is a supplier flat-out refusing to deal with someone who is neither a Ltd company nor VAT registered on the incorrect presumption that they are a "consumer". 

[mikeselectricstuff]

Another data point. Rapid Electronics makes no mention of excluding consumers, and their terms implicitly include them .
For example

8.1 If you purchase Goods from us via our catalogue or on the website and you are a UK/EU consumer, you are able to cancel your order with us for any reason or no reason at all within thirty (30) days following receipt of your Goods by providing us with notice.

They don't sell Keysight, but do sell Tektronix,TTi, Fluke, Flir, Keithley to name a few.

https://www.rapidonline.com/terms

The only thing they refuse to sell to non-account holders is leaded solder, due to specific legislation.

MCS also have no terms excluding consumers

[YetAnotherTechie]

If the brand representatives that lurk here could point the specific legislation that's scaring them off, maybe we could look into it to find a solution/compromise...

[tocsa120ls]

I wonder if this has something to do with Right to Repair... which is mostly relevant for private users, as any corporation will just bin the malfunctioning test gear and budget a new one (I mean look at what Shahriar fixes lately, I think the last two testers had a bad connector). Solution: don't sell to the pain-in-the-arse small customer which you will have to provide support for at least 2 years (EU law).

[mikeselectricstuff]

If the brand representatives that lurk here could point the specific legislation that's scaring them off, maybe we could look into it to find a solution/compromise...

I think they just want to avoid the requirements of legistation designed to "protect" consumers, avoid paying liability insurance that covers the stupid things that idiot consumers do, and justify the use of industrial EMC emissions limits.
I have no issue with any of that, only the way they decide whether someone is a "consumer".
A simple waiver is all that would be necessary, but big companies have to run everything through their legal dept, whose job encourages them to say "no".

[bd139]

Probably.

The key thing here is you can’t override statutory law, even in click through T&Cs, only control your supply chain, which they don’t do here. So the whole thing is moot.

If you buy something on Farnell (off account), enjoy your 6 year warranty under CRA 2015. But you might have to run it through MoneyClaim to get them to do anything.

My father found this out the hard way once and lost the goods, the money and some extra money in costs paid.

Or you can buy your stuff from a reputable manufacturer like TTi who will hand hold you through servicing a 20 year old bit of kit quite happily.

[alanambrose]

Yeah, I found this a few month's ago when I inquired about the cal of my 3458As in the UK. I still have not got round to that yet (: I wondered at the time whether it was something to do with German law and all the Keysight stuff was going through Germany? I know some German suppliers won't supply to you unless you are a legit business. Fine for me as I have a legit UK ltd co. Although I was a bit surprised.

The easiest solution is to get a small friendly legit business with a VAT #, incorporation # etc to put it through their books and just repay them the fees. You won't have much of a indemnity that way as it'll be through a third party, but you probably don't care about a guarantee on a cal service.

Alan

[Keith956]

I had a similar brush with Keysight recently. I wanted a spare part for a HP test fixture, rather than shelling out £550 or so for a new one. So I enquired from the Customer Services people in Winnersh Triangle. First they said the part was 'not for trade sale'.

I questioned why (considering it was listed as a 'replacement part' in the manual) wasn't it available? And I do have a UK registered company number for the last 3 years, albeit with a low turnover, but specifically to appear as a B2B customer. It seemed odd, as only a year ago I'd successfully got a 34401A rear panel replacement from them with no fuss.

They relented after a while, and asked me to submit a PO. I did, for 2 of the parts, thinking a spare would be useful. Only to be told by Keysight that I only had permission for 1! Who, I wonder, decides all of this? Does each order go through some official whose job is to yay or nay the request?

Anyhow after resubmitting the PO, and being phoned for a credit card number for payment in advance, about 3 weeks later the part arrived from Germany. In a sizeable box about 40cmx40cm, for a 1cm part...

A few days later I got an email survey request on how my dealings with the customer centre went. So of course I mentioned that I had specified many 100k$ worth of HP products over the years and up till now had always felt that HP/Agilent/Keysight's after sales support was a differentiator, and without that I'd just buy Chinese.

[mikeselectricstuff]

They relented after a while, and asked me to submit a PO. I did, for 2 of the parts, thinking a spare would be useful. Only to be told by Keysight that I only had permission for 1! Who, I wonder, decides all of this? Does each order go through some official whose job is to yay or nay the request?

If parts have limited availability, it's not necessarily unreasonable to limit purchase quantities

[Keith956]

If parts have limited availability, it's not necessarily unreasonable to limit purchase quantities

Well that may be a reason, but I somehow doubt it. Of course if they start rationing new product too I might start to believe it.

To be honest I was surprised that parts were available at all for equipment that is out of warranty. The amount of time they must spend dealing with small enquiries can't be profitable.

[zitt]

R&S and Keysight needs to listen up here...
I am a hobbyist by night... but have engineer approval/recommendations in my day job for a major fortune 500 company.

As of this moment; based upon the comments posted here...
I have no intention of EVER specifying recommending another product from either company.

You need to make this right with all your EU customers (business or individual) if you ever want me to personally recommend your products in the future.

[bd139]

Well a week of deafening silence later from keysight….

[JonM]

Presumably this is not an issue in the US, but after seeing this thread mentioned on Twitter last weekend I decided that I should call in my credit card number for my annual scope service contract on Monday. There were no issues although it is a drawn out process that shows how Keysight is not really setup to handle individuals. I started a thread on this a couple of years ago (oddly no one commented) and don't remember all the issues I reported getting the service contract setup, but the renewal process is:

1) You get an emailed quote well in advance of expiration, 2) You have to call the person who issued the quote to tell them that you want to renew, if your cc number has not changed that person can submit the renewal, 3) Since I had a new cc someone else had to call me to get the number, then he submitted a ticket to the Activation Team. On Wednesday I got the renewal documents via email. In the meantime I had to answer a SPAM phone call from Colorado in case it was a question about the renewal.

A one year service contract for a DSOX3024T is US$120 + local tax which seems quite reasonable just considering the administrative overhead. You would think that they would offer a three year contract, but (at least a couple of years ago) they explicitly stated that they only do one year contracts for individuals.

I have purchased all of my Keysight equipment from Test Equity (which also requires phone calls). I recently purchased the new EDU power supply and was going to try Keysight Direct but they first had a nine week delivery and then said that the EDU PS was only available from distributors.

Now, I can think of some lab products that could be a problem if sold to individuals. Last year I was considering the purchase of a fairly powerful laser and wondered how much trouble it was going to be. The laser company has my long time employer's logo on their Web site and I wrote a PhD thesis with "Laser" in the title, so that might have helped. However, after being pulled fully out of retirement I have no time so that was not tested.

[mjs]

One good reason for not selling or providing this kind of products or services to private customers are the consumer protection laws. I understand why we have those laws - to force companies provide some quality to people (also called voters). The downside is this kind of sometimes ridiculous limitations.

I've got my own company (similar to LLC) for hobbies. On the other hand, in Finland almost no company will check whether you're really representing a real company as long as you pay by CC / cash. I've also bought some 'professional' stuff for friends through my company every now and then - but would never do that for somebody I don't know well enough not to get me into trouble through consumer protections laws.

[TimFox]

So now we need to determine if this is a global thing or something localized to a region to maybe get around some consumer protection laws.

I'm pretty sure that this is either a result of a legitimate interpretation of a boneheaded "consumer protection" law or a boneheaded interpretation of a legitimate consumer protection law.  I don't know which law specifically, but I seriously doubt Keysight is intentionally shunning paying customers just because they don't like them.

My understanding is that it's "a legitimate interpretation of a boneheaded 'consumer protection' law." I believe there are some restrictions around "industrial equipment" [probably not the correct legal term] being sold to non-industrial parties (aka individuals). I do not know the details but @oldtestgear I'm looking into it with Peter.

It has been two weeks since this posting.  Is there any news or reply out of Keysight?

[Cerebus]

[Rohde and Schwarz]

Dear rf-messkopf,

we have checked back with our customer support and we did not terminate GLORIS accounts of individuals in general and if we do so, i.e. because the individual has more than one account, you usually get a notification. Please check back with customersupport@rohde-schwarz.com to see what happened and what we can do.

Our customer support also tries to help with any issues that occur in relation to our instruments no matter if the request comes from an individual or a company. They can provide access to an archive of historic documentation and will try to help with expertise if it is possible to repair or provide spare parts. If so, business customers can order this service directly with R&S and private individuals can address our partner Sky Messtechnik or one of our distributors.

Hope this helps to clarify the situation and with your individual problem
R&S Social Media Team

[Rohde and Schwarz]

Dear Brian,

I just replied to rf-messkopf. But just in case you did not see this: we checked back with the customer support and it is not because we deactivate accounts of individuals but there must have been some other issue with your account. Please address customersupport@rohde-schwarz.com with details of the problem and your account so that the colleagues can resolve the issue.

Thanks and have a nice weekend
Rohde & Schwarz Social Media Team

[bd139]

You know it's bad when R&S are more active on a Keysight thread than Keysight are 

I love how latest Keysight YT video caption is "Frank Alandt, Keysight Senior Services Account Manager, discusses how he helped a research center keep their project on track by providing technical expertise and committed turn-around time for support."

[rf-messkopf]

Dear rf-messkopf,

we have checked back with our customer support and we did not terminate GLORIS accounts of individuals in general and if we do so, i.e. because the individual has more than one account, you usually get a notification. Please check back with customersupport@rohde-schwarz.com to see what happened and what we can do.

Our customer support also tries to help with any issues that occur in relation to our instruments no matter if the request comes from an individual or a company. They can provide access to an archive of historic documentation and will try to help with expertise if it is possible to repair or provide spare parts. If so, business customers can order this service directly with R&S and private individuals can address our partner Sky Messtechnik or one of our distributors.

Hope this helps to clarify the situation and with your individual problem
R&S Social Media Team

Dear R&S Team,

thank you for getting back to me in this matter. It is reassuring to hear that R&S is still willing to make manuals and other information available to private individuals. In fact, I had very good experiences with R&S in this regard in the past. I was all the more appalled that apparently this service was no longer available to private individuals. If Sky Messtechnik and other distributors in Germany (Datatec?) can sell the full inventory of R&S spare parts, that would be an acceptable solution.

I will contact the mentioned email address to get my Gloris account back working, and I'll report here about the outcome.

Thanks again for looking into this issue.

Thanks are also due to forum user Rich@RohdeScopesUSA, who helped in the background, and with whom I've been in contact in the past two weeks.

Mario

[maxwell3e10]

I tried to get a quote from Keysight for a fancy microwave generator using company e-mail. Their "Instant quote" feature that I used in the past doesn't seem to work anymore. So a representative contacted me to confirm that my configuration was valid. After another couple of days and e-mails - still no quote.

[2N3055]

Keysight turned around their business since 2014 and more than quadrupled profits. 
There is series of videos from upper management from their "2020  Investor day" (and previous years too), where, in clear language they outline Keysight strategy.
Basically, they are converting from perpetual licenses to software as a service (you will rent software, not buy it), to high profit industries where they don't sell T&M equipment but "provide solutions to industries" where there are high profit margins, and pulling out of low profit areas. They outsource 50% of all manufacturing, and will "optimize" that even more.

Basicaly, they are going the way the IBM went a decade ago (I guess Keysight also made that strategy then, it's just takes time to implement it), where they basically stopped making computers, except some special servers and mainframes, sold Thinkpad to Lenovo, and just do software and integrations..

Their behaviour will follow this strategy. A small bussines that buys one 3000T series device is NOT their target market.

[bd139]

Yep. Look how successful Lenovo are now compared to IBM.

[Towger]

Classic short-term gain. By the time management retiree with their good pensions they will be in serious trouble again.  You need to look after the little customers, they may become big customers and even if they don't the big customer's employees who make decisions may also have once been a small customer.  The type of business does not matter, I have personally seen it happen.  Sales reps blowing their budget wine and dining management to get a big contract, not knowing their companies past sins have ruled them out at the started block.

[rf-messkopf]

I will contact the mentioned email address to get my Gloris account back working, and I'll report here about the outcome.

My Gloris account is working again. Thank you R&S for resolving this quickly.

[The Bootloader]

R&S and Keysight needs to listen up here...
I am a hobbyist by night... but have engineer approval/recommendations in my day job for a major fortune 500 company.

This times 1000000. The electronics industry is a small one. People move around and talk to each other.
Hardware design is hard, we don't need suppliers that make our work more difficult than needed.

Hopefully Keysight can find a solution to properly support all of their customers.
With all the efforts they do in marketing (Keysight University, ...), it would be a waste not to do so.

[bdunham7]

it is not because we deactivate accounts of individuals but there must have been some other issue with your account. Please address customersupport@rohde-schwarz.com with details of the problem and your account so that the colleagues can resolve the issue.

OK, I did that and I got a proper e-mail this time with the explanation that due to security issues, R&S does not permit corporate accounts to register with generic emails (gmail, hotmail, yahoo, etc) and private account holders with such emails would need to provide a model and serial number of an R&S device to reactivate their account.  I provided the model and serial numbers and my account is now active again.  I'm still working on the spare parts angle.  If anyone knows of an R&S distributor willing to take an order for one rear foot (p/n 1096.2493.00 drawing # 5063  "RUECKWANDFUSS 50MM", a rear foot assembly) let me know.

Thanks to Rich@RohdeScopesUSA for whatever went on in the background.

[Rich@RohdeScopesUSA]

Hi Everyone - I'm happy to see the Gloris accounts are getting back up and running.  Thanks to my colleagues in Munich for figuring out the glitch there. 

I think I've replied to all the PMs - I apologize for my slowness in getting back to some of you.  Please don't hesitate to let me know if I didn't get back to you 

-Rich

[TimFox]

So now we need to determine if this is a global thing or something localized to a region to maybe get around some consumer protection laws.

I'm pretty sure that this is either a result of a legitimate interpretation of a boneheaded "consumer protection" law or a boneheaded interpretation of a legitimate consumer protection law.  I don't know which law specifically, but I seriously doubt Keysight is intentionally shunning paying customers just because they don't like them.

My understanding is that it's "a legitimate interpretation of a boneheaded 'consumer protection' law." I believe there are some restrictions around "industrial equipment" [probably not the correct legal term] being sold to non-industrial parties (aka individuals). I do not know the details but @oldtestgear I'm looking into it with Peter.

This reply from Keysight on July 16 seems to be their latest reply.  Does anyone know what the current situation is?

[Cerebus]

[Fx: sounds of stridulation]

[TimFox]

Here in the American Midwest, we have cicadas this year, drowning out the crickets.

[rf-messkopf]

I'm still working on the spare parts angle.  If anyone knows of an R&S distributor willing to take an order for one rear foot (p/n 1096.2493.00 drawing # 5063  "RUECKWANDFUSS 50MM", a rear foot assembly) let me know.

No idea about US distributors, but I heard the other day that someone successfully ordered trim parts from Datatec (https://www.datatec.de/). So far I've only bought new kit from them, but they have been very quick and helpful. Another option in Germany would be Sky Messtechnik (https://www.sky-messtechnik.de/), as was suggested above.

According to https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/service-support/service-sales-locator/distributor-locator_253996.html, an option in the US could be ConRes (https://www.conrestestequipment.com/). I actually bought used R&S equipment (ex rental) from them. Sometimes this turns out to be cheaper than buying local, despite shipping costs and import duties.

[bd139]

I think Keysight lawyers must be on holiday 

[Uky]

As a member of the group that handled procurement requirements at the university where I worked,
I was able to have a paragraph included in the rules that clearly stated that under no circumstances should any instrument we purchased
have embedded or application software that had (extra/additional) license costs associated with it. Ie: The features included when purchased should be perpetual
without any need for annual license renewal even if such procedure was free of charge.

[wolfy007]

I know in Australian education sector we definitely look at costs now with tightening budgets and covid hurting income. As I work worked for the Engineering and Information Sciences faculty, I have been asked by and seen many lecturers/supervisors/researchers looking to reduce costs, and having annual 'rental' agreements will definitely hurt a companies options in being picked as an equipment source.

I now work for the Universities central IT group, but once again here we are looking at any cost saving we can make. I know in arts one group that moved from Adobe Photoshop to Affinity Photo in a bid to reduce annual costs as another example.

[Cerebus]

I now work for the Universities central IT group, but once again here we are looking at any cost saving we can make. I know in arts one group that moved from Adobe Photoshop to Affinity Photo in a bid to reduce annual costs as another example.

I used to work in producing commercial software, one of the early (1980s) AI tools. We fully understood the value of "poisoning the minds of the young" as our CEO used to describe it and would offer massive educational discounts to get our products used in a teaching context. Our market was small and niche enough, and the software sales cycle personal enough (i.e. every customer met a salesman) that it wasn't hard for us to track the effects of this. We knew and could prove that educational sales converted into commercial sales as graduates moved on into industry. Any company that forgoes this free sales channel or puts barriers in the way of it (like making themselves too expensive for academia as you've illustrated) is stupid.

[2N3055]

My son at his university has available in labs Rigol and Keysight scopes. He tells me that his fellow students already don't have prejudice and don't think some equipment is inferior just because of name. They will chose Rigol scope if it has measurement that Keysight doesn't (if you didn't buy a license, for instance) with no problem. I think cat is out of the bag already for new generations...
They don't care as long as they can afford it and it does the job..

[Uky]

The lack of freely available support documentation (known as CLIP) with schematic drawings, parts lists, etc is in my opinion another reason to be careful when selecting an instrument supplier. The instruments used at my workplace has to be there for a long time. Thus, the strategy that I implemented was this:

If the instrument did not need to meet any stringent specifications that required a brand new state of the art device, I always purchased old second hand instruments where CLIP was available. Such instruments are quite inexpenceive. As long as they work, fine. If they fail, I was normally able to fix them. If not, the low cost meant that they could be discarded without any "financial pain". If there was a need for performance, the first rule stated in a previous post applied.

[2N3055]

The lack of freely available support documentation (known as CLIP) with schematic drawings, parts lists, etc is in my opinion another reason to be careful when selecting an instrument supplier. The instruments used at my workplace has to be there for a long time. Thus, the strategy that I implemented was this:

If the instrument did not need to meet any stringent specifications that required a brand new state of the art device, I always purchased old second hand instruments where CLIP was available. Such instruments are quite inexpenceive. As long as they work, fine. If they fail, I was normally able to fix them. If not, the low cost meant that they could be discarded without any "financial pain". If there was a need for performance, the first rule stated in a previous post applied.

So you basically won't buy any electronic device ever again, unless it was made before, say, 1980es... ??

[Uky]

Yes we did. We purchased two signal analyzers which both failed following a power cycling after an O/S (Windows) update resulting in a lost calibration, (possibly caused by the FPGA in the LO-module being erased in the process), over their entire frequency range. The cost estimate for repairing them was US $7000 a piece, corresponding to almost half the price we initially payed for them. Needless to say - We rejected the quotation and the plan was to relocate them to a place where we could use them in a narrow band application.

[nctnico]

The lack of freely available support documentation (known as CLIP) with schematic drawings, parts lists, etc is in my opinion another reason to be careful when selecting an instrument supplier. The instruments used at my workplace has to be there for a long time. Thus, the strategy that I implemented was this:

If the instrument did not need to meet any stringent specifications that required a brand new state of the art device, I always purchased old second hand instruments where CLIP was available. Such instruments are quite inexpenceive. As long as they work, fine. If they fail, I was normally able to fix them. If not, the low cost meant that they could be discarded without any "financial pain". If there was a need for performance, the first rule stated in a previous post applied.

So you basically won't buy any electronic device ever again, unless it was made before, say, 1980es... ??

In the end modern equipment isn't made from unicorn pixy dust but from parts you can buy (new or from discarded equipment). Even without a schematic any EE with some talent where it comes to repairs can fix a piece of equipment. There are people who are specialised in doing repairs on undocumented equipment commercially. If I'm not mistaken forum member Jwalling is such a person.

[wraper]

In the end modern equipment isn't made from unicorn pixy dust but from parts you can buy (new or from discarded equipment). Even without a schematic any EE with some talent where it comes to repairs can fix a piece of equipment. There are people who are specialised in doing repairs on undocumented equipment commercially. If I'm not mistaken forum member Jwalling is such a person.

If you cannot obtain the firmware needed for repair, you are screwed regardless of you skill.

[HighVoltage]

Most equipment repairs are easy, even on new type of equipment and even on modern Keysight instruments.
What usually fails are power supplies and power rails.
If one has to look deeper, it usually leads to a good repair after hours of searching but if special firmware or unobtanium chips are required, a schematic would also not help.

What worries me with Keysight is also the approach of limited licensing.
That should not be the case after spending lots of money for an instrument.

[bdunham7]

In the end modern equipment isn't made from unicorn pixy dust but from parts you can buy (new or from discarded equipment). Even without a schematic any EE with some talent where it comes to repairs can fix a piece of equipment. There are people who are specialised in doing repairs on undocumented equipment commercially. If I'm not mistaken forum member Jwalling is such a person.

I repair both older, 'documented' stuff and newer stuff, although I do it for pocket change and don't want to do it for regular commercial customers--the type that need it yesterday.  Some things are unicorn pixie dust--and that applies to old as well as new--and I'm not sure I could say that one variety was easier than another to repair.  When we are talking about repairing test equipment, it pays to remember that often the older stuff worth repairing was very expensive when new.  Just because its market value has declined doesn't necessarily mean the difficulty and expense of repairing it has declined as well.  Experience and spare parts supply management are pretty important, probably just as important as schematic-divining and reverse engineering skills.

[nctnico]

In the end modern equipment isn't made from unicorn pixy dust but from parts you can buy (new or from discarded equipment). Even without a schematic any EE with some talent where it comes to repairs can fix a piece of equipment. There are people who are specialised in doing repairs on undocumented equipment commercially. If I'm not mistaken forum member Jwalling is such a person.

If you cannot obtain the firmware needed for repair, you are screwed regardless of you skill.

Not for someone who specialises in such repairs; these people have collections of firmware at their disposal which they gathered from previous repairs en FUBAR equipment procured from various sources.

And I also second what HighVoltage wrote: most of the repairs are power supply related.

[wraper]

Not for someone who specialises in such repairs; these people have collections of firmware at their disposal which they gathered from previous repairs en FUBAR equipment procured from various sources.

As if. Sure they have some firmware dumps. But not even close to what is needed and not even remotely everything can be dumped from equipment. Even if you have another piece of equipment, good luck reading some read protected MCU.

[bdunham7]

Not for someone who specialises in such repairs....And I also second what HighVoltage wrote: most of the repairs are power supply related.

Specialization helps, since you can choose to specialize in things for which you have the firmware, parts, knowledge, etc.  But in the wider world, many things end up being BER or just plain not repairable at any price because of these issues.  And while I'll happily repair PSUs as needed, there's a lot of stuff that I see that goes way beyond that.  Of course if you only count the repairs and not the broken units that didn't get fixed, perhaps the PSU percentage goes up, especially for the less determined.

[nctnico]

Not for someone who specialises in such repairs; these people have collections of firmware at their disposal which they gathered from previous repairs en FUBAR equipment procured from various sources.

As if. Sure they have some firmware dumps. But not even close to what is needed and not even remotely everything can be dumped from equipment. Even if you have another piece of equipment, good luck reading some read protected MCU.

That is grasping at straws. The reality is that you don't need that data because MCUs don't fail (or better put: MCUs have such an insignificant failure rate that it is easy enough to procure a replacement board). Hard drives & SSDs OTOH do fail regulary but are easy to clone.

[wraper]

Not for someone who specialises in such repairs; these people have collections of firmware at their disposal which they gathered from previous repairs en FUBAR equipment procured from various sources.

As if. Sure they have some firmware dumps. But not even close to what is needed and not even remotely everything can be dumped from equipment. Even if you have another piece of equipment, good luck reading some read protected MCU.

That is grasping at straws. The reality is that you don't need that data because MCUs don't fail (or better put: MCUs have such an insignificant failure rate that it is easy enough to procure a replacement board). Hard drives & SSDs OTOH do fail regulary but are easy to clone.

Do you ever repair any equipment? What you just wrote is nonsense, MCU and other components which contain firmware fail often enough to be a big problem for independent repairs. Or firmware/config data just gets corrupted without any component failure.

[nctnico]

If you have read what I have been posting over the years then you'd know I have a whole bunch of repairs under my belt. The majority of those without access to schematics.

[wraper]

If you have read what I have been posting over the years then you'd know I have a whole bunch of repairs under my belt. The majority of those without access to schematics.

Then you had an extreme luck if almost all of your repairs came down to fixing PSU.

[mendip_discovery]

Oi Kids, stop fighting    this ain't "I am a better repairer than you" thread.

I doubt Keysight UK gives much of a rats ass about losing members of the public from their customer base, it is just a small amount of the market and in many cases, they are not worth it compared to a firm sending in 20k of calibration a year. They may have their reasons and we aren't aware of them. It may be because they are restructuring or they have lost a few engineers and don't want to compromise the customer care to the big customers. I very much doubt they will turn up here to speak about the issues.

One way to get around this may be to ask your local cal lab how much they would charge to sub out your meter to Keysight. I suspect a small lab would charge you some extra fees but happily do it for you[1]. Another is to take a bit of time on the UKAS website and find a lab[2] with a decent budget and go with them for calibration. I just spend a few hours last night looking at a better lab for my work kit as the current lab isn't good with the customer service.


[1] Last week we have several off the street customers who wanted their electrical test gear done, its not mega money but we take the attitude it all adds up.
[2] Yes its not Keysight, but here in the UK we have UKAS and they are pretty good at checking labs to make sure they are up to the task. You can ask the lab for an example cert and compare it to the holy grail.

[bd139]

As mentioned before you have to look after all customers not just the high rollers. The little ones might be big ones down the line. The software industry learned that one after shooting it’s own toes off through the 90s.

[mendip_discovery]

Oh, I agree. But they also have to look after the big customers who spend 100k a year, they will just take the work elsewhere and the firm loses out on significant money it is short-sighted but they are possibly looking after the books for the moment. I have seen labs getting into a right mess because one or two of the elders leave and they take with them 40 years of experience and this causes a bit of a void, it is not easy to find cal engineers. You have the likes of Tr*sc*l buying up labs and making a big dent in the market. I suspect they are just doing some transition stuff and the sales droids are trying to avoid the one item a year customers as they are pressured to go after the bigger customers. It may ease out in 6months time. But if it doesn't just go elsewhere there is a lot of other labs out there doing a very good job.

[2N3055]

As mentioned before you have to look after all customers not just the high rollers. The little ones might be big ones down the line. The software industry learned that one after shooting it’s own toes off through the 90s.

As I wrote before, current management doesn't think so. Just watch videos I linked if you want details.
But basically it is same old "we are culling all parts of business that is not high profit margin" and going for latest fads of software as a service (rent vs buy), putting that software service in a cloud etc etc..
They literally state their business  is NOT sale of T&M equipment but adjacent services and software. They only sell you scope as a platform to sell you software and options on it. Hardware is only sales enabler and not a primary income source. And they prioritize all development and product lines to support only markets that are high stakes and deep pockets because they are prepared to pay more. All simple T&M equipment (ones we discuss here) will be just there to complement the offering.
They don't care for places where one disgruntled man can make choice not to buy Keysight.. Their primary business is signing contracts with the likes of US Air Force for equipping them with  T&M solutions  for all their needs..

[Resonant]

As mentioned before you have to look after all customers not just the high rollers. The little ones might be big ones down the line. The software industry learned that one after shooting it’s own toes off through the 90s.

 Keysight.. Their primary business is signing contracts with the likes of US Air Force for equipping them with  T&M solutions  for all their needs..

It looks like the high rollers are also getting fed up.
In the US presidential decree of 9th July

Section  (s)  The Secretary of Defense shall:….

(iii) not later than 180 days after the date of this order, submit a report to the Chair of the White House Competition Council, on a plan for avoiding contract terms in procurement agreements that make it challenging or impossible for the Department of Defense or service members to repair their own equipment, particularly in the field.'

But back to the original issue.. the support of independent engineers and enthusiasts by Keysight, it is in my view short sighted, I use a lot more of Keysight and Agilent than any other brand of test equipment but if it not going to be supported or make me jump through hoops, even if it is only for spare parts and information, I will have to rethink my purchase decisions. In the past Keysight have been happy to do videos with Dave on their services and how they changed after Agilent but now seem to be drifting back to the bad old ways and their lack of response to this thread is poor.

If this behaviour is the new norm then the catalogues and websites of suppliers like Keysight should carry a health warning.
Along the lines of:-
If you are not a major corporate company purchasing equipment and services over $xxx per annum then you purchase this equipment entirely at your own risk and we will not provide support or service under any circumstances.

Perhaps we should have sticky thread where clear warnings can be placed of companies which will not provide good support and information and those that do, to inform forum member's purchase decisions.

Resonant

[bd139]

As mentioned before you have to look after all customers not just the high rollers. The little ones might be big ones down the line. The software industry learned that one after shooting it’s own toes off through the 90s.

As I wrote before, current management doesn't think so. Just watch videos I linked if you want details.
But basically it is same old "we are culling all parts of business that is not high profit margin" and going for latest fads of software as a service (rent vs buy), putting that software service in a cloud etc etc..
They literally state their business  is NOT sale of T&M equipment but adjacent services and software. They only sell you scope as a platform to sell you software and options on it. Hardware is only sales enabler and not a primary income source. And they prioritize all development and product lines to support only markets that are high stakes and deep pockets because they are prepared to pay more. All simple T&M equipment (ones we discuss here) will be just there to complement the offering.
They don't care for places where one disgruntled man can make choice not to buy Keysight.. Their primary business is signing contracts with the likes of US Air Force for equipping them with  T&M solutions  for all their needs..

I worked in defence T&M. They're actually fairly demanding on the price front. There are budgets that need to be met and a tendering process. The only thing they win at is volume which pays the sales commission. That's where the problem is; commission focus.

[dietert1]

Somewhere in the basement we still have three Tektronix 7912A digitizers (used to be working 15 years ago).
"This October 10, 1975 TekWeek describes a half a million dollar waveform system built using 26 7912D digitizers.  This system was built for the Air Force Weapons Lab and was deployed on the TRESTLE (Wikipedia page) test site for evaluation of EMP susceptibility..."
Anybody who ever got "preowned" test equipment from the US should be aware we are harvesting the extraordinary US military budgets of the past, whatever the labels are on the equipment. No guarantee things will stay like that. Maybe future budgets will be needed for something else, who knows.

Regards, Dieter

[mendip_discovery]

To add to this, our lab contacted Keysight UK as a customer of ours wants to get an RF Dummy load calibrated. They wouldn't deal with us because the effort of setting up an account would be more than the calibration is worth to them.

[IconicPCB]

A little gem from today's mail box:

https://support.keysight.com/KeysightdCX/s/?language=en_US

[2N3055]

A little gem from today's mail box:

https://support.keysight.com/KeysightdCX/s/?language=en_US

We cannot see what it was when you have logged in to your account..

[bd139]

Another screwed customer here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/a-broken-34470a-and-keysights-terrible-customer-service/msg3642043/

I think based on the complete lack of any word from Keysight here that they have clammed up entirely and decided the most business friendly option is let dissent grow among their current and future customer base. Classic strategy known as “the ostrich”.

Perhaps someone should start posting this thread on their YouTube video comments.

[tggzzz]

Perhaps this is why the auction prices of old HP/Agilent equipment is going up faster than I would expect.

[bd139]

Everyone stock piling it because the current stuff is clearly garbage with garbage support.

I only buy their stuff with a service manual which barely tips into Agilent branded universe. If I can’t fix it I don’t want it.

Honestly the sales and support is better on products from China which are 1/3 the initial outlay.

[tggzzz]

HPAK's 6+ digit DMSs have a reputation for using selected voltage references, and they appear to be relatively stable.

ISTR reports that ?Silglent? equivalents are less stable. More subtle than a display failure, but invisibly problematic.

[bd139]

There are of course other vendors such as Time, Keithley, Transmille if a moderately drifty reference isn't your thing

[2N3055]

HPAK's 6+ digit DMSs have a reputation for using selected voltage references, and they appear to be relatively stable.

ISTR reports that ?Silglent? equivalents are less stable. More subtle than a display failure, but invisibly problematic.

34465 and 34470 probably do use aged refs. 34461 and 34460 don't. They do drift in a first year too.
34465 and 34470 do too but not much.
After a year they all get very stable though. So you would really want to buy new one, and have it adjusted after a year. Then it would be really good.
Truth is, my Rigol DM3068 also did drift a bit in first year. Now it's 3 something years old and the last year or two didn't move much, few ppms.. It is easily on par with 34465.
It is not only reference, resistors need to recover from thermal shock and go through initial aging. Board has to settle too.

Problem is that you would really want to keep sending it for yearly checks anyways. Especially if you have only one. If you have 3 meters of comparable accuracy, you cross check as sanity check and for non critical work you're good. But if you have only one, you never know... And there is the point where you need service..

[BU508A]

Looks like Daniel is active here in the forum but for some reason he doesn't want to respond here or in the other thread with the broken 34470A.

Imo not the best PR Keysight is performing here. 

[2N3055]

Looks like Daniel is active here in the forum but for some reason he doesn't want to respond here or in the other thread with the broken 34470A.

Imo not the best PR Keysight is performing here. 

I would not lay it so hard on Daniel. If what we see is change by corporate decisions (as it seems to be) his hands will be tied, and he might even be ordered not to comment.
You can see that people are being served exact phrases and language carefully crafted by lawyers.
In my experience, Daniel helped to many people above and beyond on many occasions, even volunteering to help, without help being directly solicited.

So maybe we should be fair to him and not make this situation uncomfortable, where he is put in a position that he is "demanded" to do something he cannot do.
So maybe a bit of camaraderie for our colleague,  Daniel "the person".. 
I'm sure many of use have been in similar situations..

Regards to all.

[BU508A]

You should read a little more carefully what I wrote and how.
Daniel is very helpful and supports people where he can.
I am well aware that Keysight may have muzzled him,
which is why I blame Keysight for the poor PR and not Daniel.

[bd139]

Yes this is never the fault of an individual.

(Unless there’s a lawyer behind it all!)

[2N3055]

You should read a little more carefully what I wrote and how.
Daniel is very helpful and supports people where he can.
I am well aware that Keysight may have muzzled him,
which is why I blame Keysight for the poor PR and not Daniel.

No, no, it WASN't a critique to you. I apologize if it came that way.
Your post merely reminded me that I wanted to say that. Before there is flurry of "Daniel this, Daniel that..."

Best,

[Cerebus]

My suspicion is that Daniel is quietly fuming because some little jobsworth* in Keysight Germany is undoing all the good work he's been doing over the years.

Nobody ought to read anything here as criticism of Daniel - in a public forum he can't very well say that he thinks his own company is making a pig's ear of this. At least he has the consolation that he doesn't work for Apple - I wouldn't want to be one of their corporate apologists at the moment!

* An English expression for the kind of inflexible individual who when asked to do something reasonable uses company policy as the excuse not to, with the phase "It's more than my job's worth". Closely allied to, and frequently used with, the English idiom for someone who has been given a little authority and has allowed it to go to their head and become dictatorial - a "little Hitler". Normally I'd regard that a tad insensitive to use about or in the presence of Germans but in this case ...

[EEVblog]

I don't think there is anything anyone can do here, the lawyers have deemed it so for whatever reason and that's that, and Keysight management aren't going to go against the lawyers.

I reckon that if someone were to set up an Incorporated Business or suitably VAT Registered company, then well, there is no limit to how many "contractors" that said company can have that can use that VAT/business number or whatever to get products and services 
 

[tggzzz]

I don't think there is anything anyone can do here, the lawyers have deemed it so for whatever reason and that's that, and Keysight management aren't going to go against the lawyers.

I reckon that if someone were to set up an Incorporated Business or suitably VAT Registered company, then well, there is no limit to how many "contractors" that said company can have that can use that VAT/business number or whatever to get products and services 

Well, yes, but...

Who in "KeysightSuxCo" would be willing to take responsibility (whatever that means) for the actions of unknown third parties, and "police" the business they are doing through KeysightSuxCo?

Being able to disprove accusations of ITAR violations and money laundering spring to mind.

[nctnico]

I reckon that if someone were to set up an Incorporated Business or suitably VAT Registered company, then well, there is no limit to how many "contractors" that said company can have that can use that VAT/business number or whatever to get products and services 

IOW: a local Keysight equipment dealer!

[Cerebus]

I don't think there is anything anyone can do here, the lawyers have deemed it so for whatever reason and that's that, and Keysight management aren't going to go against the lawyers.

Rather a case of the tail wagging the dog there, if that's true.

A former colleague gave me some very good advice in regard to dealing with corporate lawyers. He said that if you go to your lawyers and ask "Is it legal for us to do this?" or "Do we have a legal problem if we do this?", it is in the habit of corporate lawyers to interpret that as "Find me a legal way to do this." with the result that you can end up with something other than you want and can go down some deeply unethical routes if you're not careful - corporate lawyers are conscienceless. The point being that most corporate lawyers are enablers, people who assist you in conducting your business as you want to, not guardians of all that is good, legal and true.

[bd139]

I think the corporate lawyer causality is the wrong way round. It's usually "you did what?" followed by "hey we found a loophole so no one is going to prison!"  followed by lines of coke, hookers and expensive champagne. Well that's how it works in the finance sector anyway 

As mentioned earlier I implore keysight to do what the corporate lawyers would have told them do, which is why I know the lawyer argument is wrong:

1. Remove all their products from resellers web sites and ebay where consumers can purchase the items.
2. Remove all marketing targeting non-commercial users (makers fad mostly).
3. Put out a formal statement regarding the support of keysight products purchased from date X
4. Put out a formal statement regarding the support of keysight products purchased before date X stating your statutory rights will not be affected.
5. Ask business customers to formally register accounts with Keysight.

None of that has happened (yet) so it's either in discussion, not in discussion or someone is going yadda yadda yadda with their finger in their ears. Some clarity would be nice but so far we had Daniel pop up and said "not his call" which it probably isn't.

I'd rather have been told "I have informed Keysight management of the concerns raised in this thread"

[EEVblog]

I reckon that if someone were to set up an Incorporated Business or suitably VAT Registered company, then well, there is no limit to how many "contractors" that said company can have that can use that VAT/business number or whatever to get products and services 

IOW: a local Keysight equipment dealer!

I thought that actually was one of the problems here? (maybe another thread) Wasn't an individual denied the purchase of a bit of gear though a legit dealer in their country?

[EEVblog]

I don't think there is anything anyone can do here, the lawyers have deemed it so for whatever reason and that's that, and Keysight management aren't going to go against the lawyers.

I reckon that if someone were to set up an Incorporated Business or suitably VAT Registered company, then well, there is no limit to how many "contractors" that said company can have that can use that VAT/business number or whatever to get products and services 

Well, yes, but...
Who in "KeysightSuxCo" would be willing to take responsibility (whatever that means) for the actions of unknown third parties, and "police" the business they are doing through KeysightSuxCo?
Being able to disprove accusations of ITAR violations and money laundering spring to mind.

Become a "used"  Keysight dealer maybe? I'm sure there are legal ways around every loophole.

[EEVblog]

I think the corporate lawyer causality is the wrong way round. It's usually "you did what?" followed by "hey we found a loophole so no one is going to prison!"  followed by lines of coke, hookers and expensive champagne. Well that's how it works in the finance sector anyway 

As mentioned earlier I implore keysight to do what the corporate lawyers would have told them do, which is why I know the lawyer argument is wrong:

1. Remove all their products from resellers web sites and ebay where consumers can purchase the items.
2. Remove all marketing targeting non-commercial users (makers fad mostly).
3. Put out a formal statement regarding the support of keysight products purchased from date X
4. Put out a formal statement regarding the support of keysight products purchased before date X stating your statutory rights will not be affected.
5. Ask business customers to formally register accounts with Keysight.

None of that has happened (yet) so it's either in discussion, not in discussion or someone is going yadda yadda yadda with their finger in their ears. Some clarity would be nice but so far we had Daniel pop up and said "not his call" which it probably isn't.
I'd rather have been told "I have informed Keysight management of the concerns raised in this thread"

Keysight will happily sell anyone a used scope on ebay through the adverising link above 

[nctnico]

I reckon that if someone were to set up an Incorporated Business or suitably VAT Registered company, then well, there is no limit to how many "contractors" that said company can have that can use that VAT/business number or whatever to get products and services 

IOW: a local Keysight equipment dealer!

I thought that actually was one of the problems here? (maybe another thread) Wasn't an individual denied the purchase of a bit of gear though a legit dealer in their country?

AFAIK some dealers (like Batronix in Germany) got ordered by Keysight to stop selling to individuals but that got reverted. But it seems Keysight has stopped offering services like sales, calibration and repairs to individuals.

[tggzzz]

I don't think there is anything anyone can do here, the lawyers have deemed it so for whatever reason and that's that, and Keysight management aren't going to go against the lawyers.

I reckon that if someone were to set up an Incorporated Business or suitably VAT Registered company, then well, there is no limit to how many "contractors" that said company can have that can use that VAT/business number or whatever to get products and services 

Well, yes, but...
Who in "KeysightSuxCo" would be willing to take responsibility (whatever that means) for the actions of unknown third parties, and "police" the business they are doing through KeysightSuxCo?
Being able to disprove accusations of ITAR violations and money laundering spring to mind.

Become a "used"  Keysight dealer maybe? I'm sure there are legal ways around every loophole.

I presume money laundering and ITAR apply no matter what the ostensible purpose of the business is.

[figgie]

Hi folks new here but not new to the world of dealer/distributor/manufacturing.

Just MAYBE, they have decided to let all the service go through the distribution channel instead of directly to them? Of course that is a massive ASSUMPTION that is the business model they are doing now.

As a real life example.

I am a dealer for some widgets (those widgets are for motorsport applications but that is not important).

When a customer buys said widgets from me. I am the support channel for said customer for that widget. If a customer decides to call the widget manufacture to go around me for support because of some issue or even misconfiguration. The manufacture will politely tell them that they need to contact the dealer that they bought said widget from and they WILL give the customer my information and hang up. Afterwards I, as the dealer, get an email stating the customers name and product that they called about along with serial number, I look through my records and if all is well, I am calling the customer to figure out what is the issue at hand if the customer has not called me about said issue yet.

This has been the way for ongoing support for many things.

Cars, no one goes to General Motors to say, I have issue so and so with my Chevy Volt. The customer goes to the local dealer preferably were they bought said Chevy Volt and gets the service for their Chevy Volt especially warranty work.

Same with Ferrari, no individual is going to call Ferrari SpA and get support regardless if you just plunked down $1,800,000 million dollars for the newest La Ferrari. Ferrari SpA will respond that you need to call the dealer that sold you that cool La Ferrari for service or warranty work, they will be even courteous enough to provide said dealer name and phone number so you can schedule an appointment but that is as far as Ferrari SpA might go.

This might be Keysight's first volley to separate support from the HQ to the sellers/distributors.

It is all a guess though!

[bdunham7]

This might be Keysight's first volley to separate support from the HQ to the sellers/distributors.

That would all be great....but who are the distributors that can provide any more support than packaging and shipping?  eBay?  Or is Keysight going to narrow their distribution channel to those distributors like Transcat that actually are capable of some level of support?  I suppose they could keep selling through mass market channels and still want their capable distributors to provide support, but I don't think that model would be well received.

[manupthehills]

Reading this and the other thread (in Metrology) on this subject concerned me a bit.
I'm a EE working in Silicon Valley and, like many, I have a more than decent personal lab that comes useful for hobby, working from home, consulting, and likely it will get even more useful in the future
Last year I had two DMMs calibrated by Keysight in Roseville: great experience with home pick-up and delivery, so, even if I could have waited some more time, I decided to have a power meter calibrated as a test to see what all this is about.

To date everything went smooth: within few days from my online request, I got a quote, they took my money, and came to pick-up the instrument as well. In few more days it should be back, hopefully.
Same good experience as usual, at least here. This new marketing approach toward "consumers", although mentioned in the latest version of their "terms of sale", seems being enforced outside the US only. For now.
There's still an open question about their service website: from my account I was able to place this calibration order but all the info about my assets are unavailable... The guy on the phone (while talking about the details of this calibration order) said that the data was migrated to a new system and they were experiencing glitches... If this doesn't resolve by itself I'll get on the phone to get a new answer.

[figgie]

This might be Keysight's first volley to separate support from the HQ to the sellers/distributors.

That would all be great....but who are the distributors that can provide any more support than packaging and shipping?  eBay?  Or is Keysight going to narrow their distribution channel to those distributors like Transcat that actually are capable of some level of support?  I suppose they could keep selling through mass market channels and still want their capable distributors to provide support, but I don't think that model would be well received.

it might not be well received but they are forcing the hands of the transcat, testequipment etc to be able to support said merchandise.

I do not know about keysight and what their official support model was but it looks l like it was a free for all and keysight themselves were in charge of support up until recently. Now keep in mind that i am talking a micro view of what is happening in HPAK UK.

It seems like HPAK US is not doing that CURRENTLY to my knowledge but It might not change based on volume sales or it might. It is a moving target until the dust settles.

Also keep in mind with the massive chip shortages happening across all industries, HPAK might be impacted (see GM shutting plants down due to said chip shortage).

[Oldtestgear]

I started the thread & it seems that I might be ending it too.

I have "given in" to Keysight's demand that I incorporate a company as the only way to get my 34470A calibrated.  It is definitely not a sensible option but it is pragmatic. I have completed the paperwork & notified Keysight. They have acknowledged my email & stated that full support is now available.  I hope to get the 34470A calibrated next week, with one of my newly acqured 3458As planned for late October assuming that both pass the dreaded long term drift test.

Not sure if I can help anyone else with parts or calibrations but am happy to try.  My new company is not intended to be profitable butcannot be run at a loss either.

If anyone is looking to buy a 3458A (with or without calibration) then please PM me to discuss. I will offer one for sale in the not too distant future.

Phil

[jc101]

I started the thread & it seems that I might be ending it too.

I have "given in" to Keysight's demand that I incorporate a company as the only way to get my 34470A calibrated.  It is definitely not a sensible option but it is pragmatic. I have completed the paperwork & notified Keysight. They have acknowledged my email & stated that full support is now available.  I hope to get the 34470A calibrated next week, with one of my newly acqured 3458As planned for late October assuming that both pass the dreaded long term drift test.

Not sure if I can help anyone else with parts or calibrations but am happy to try.  My new company is not intended to be profitable butcannot be run at a loss either.

If anyone is looking to buy a 3458A (with or without calibration) then please PM me to discuss. I will offer one for sale in the not too distant future.

Phil

Be interesting to know how long it takes, I couldn't find any details on their website.  I have a 34465A used for checking some custom built devices, so ideally I need to get an up to date calibration done. No reason to believe it's out, but to keep the paperwork people happy... It's my only meter though, so being without for a lengthy period will be a bit of a pain.

[tautech]

 
Google instrument calibration UK

[jc101]

Google instrument calibration UK

I was referring to the service from Keysight direct. I couldn’t see timescales on their website.

[Oldtestgear]

Be interesting to know how long it takes, I couldn't find any details on their website.

Keysight do not appear to quote timescales for a single calibration. Timescales are quoted  for support contracts probably as these help to tie you to Keysight but can also save money for regular  calibrations. In my experience (before all the issues) Keysight usually turned a fully working DMM around & back to the customer in a week or slightly longer. The 34465A is a simple instrument for Keysight to calibrate as it is an automated process.  When I finally get everything resolved I will be able to tell you how long it takes.

Phil

[perdrix]

Google instrument calibration UK

And then ask for their uncertainly budgets - you quickly find out that there's few or none apart from Fluke and Keysight that can tackle a 3458A, or 34470A

[porker1972]

Hi folks new here but not new to the world of dealer/distributor/manufacturing.

Just MAYBE, they have decided to let all the service go through the distribution channel instead of directly to them? Of course that is a massive ASSUMPTION that is the business model they are doing now.

As a real life example.

I am a dealer for some widgets (those widgets are for motorsport applications but that is not important).

When a customer buys said widgets from me. I am the support channel for said customer for that widget. If a customer decides to call the widget manufacture to go around me for support because of some issue or even misconfiguration. The manufacture will politely tell them that they need to contact the dealer that they bought said widget from and they WILL give the customer my information and hang up. Afterwards I, as the dealer, get an email stating the customers name and product that they called about along with serial number, I look through my records and if all is well, I am calling the customer to figure out what is the issue at hand if the customer has not called me about said issue yet.

This has been the way for ongoing support for many things.

Cars, no one goes to General Motors to say, I have issue so and so with my Chevy Volt. The customer goes to the local dealer preferably were they bought said Chevy Volt and gets the service for their Chevy Volt especially warranty work.

Same with Ferrari, no individual is going to call Ferrari SpA and get support regardless if you just plunked down $1,800,000 million dollars for the newest La Ferrari. Ferrari SpA will respond that you need to call the dealer that sold you that cool La Ferrari for service or warranty work, they will be even courteous enough to provide said dealer name and phone number so you can schedule an appointment but that is as far as Ferrari SpA might go.

This might be Keysight's first volley to separate support from the HQ to the sellers/distributors.

It is all a guess though!

There was a distributor for Hameg (before R&S bought them) in the UK. On their website they had the message "if you've bought from RS or Farnell, call them for support", I guess they got peeved for being the help line for the catalogues.

But anyway... I'm amazed that so many electronics engineers on here are able to judge the reasons why a company have made a decision based on a single poster's experience, and then also have better knowledge of consumer and commercial law, public liability requirements, testing and approval... than a $5B company... who have staff that sit on the boards of the testing and approval agencies relating to their products.

[AVGresponding]

Hi folks new here but not new to the world of dealer/distributor/manufacturing.

Just MAYBE, they have decided to let all the service go through the distribution channel instead of directly to them? Of course that is a massive ASSUMPTION that is the business model they are doing now.

As a real life example.

I am a dealer for some widgets (those widgets are for motorsport applications but that is not important).

When a customer buys said widgets from me. I am the support channel for said customer for that widget. If a customer decides to call the widget manufacture to go around me for support because of some issue or even misconfiguration. The manufacture will politely tell them that they need to contact the dealer that they bought said widget from and they WILL give the customer my information and hang up. Afterwards I, as the dealer, get an email stating the customers name and product that they called about along with serial number, I look through my records and if all is well, I am calling the customer to figure out what is the issue at hand if the customer has not called me about said issue yet.

This has been the way for ongoing support for many things.

Cars, no one goes to General Motors to say, I have issue so and so with my Chevy Volt. The customer goes to the local dealer preferably were they bought said Chevy Volt and gets the service for their Chevy Volt especially warranty work.

Same with Ferrari, no individual is going to call Ferrari SpA and get support regardless if you just plunked down $1,800,000 million dollars for the newest La Ferrari. Ferrari SpA will respond that you need to call the dealer that sold you that cool La Ferrari for service or warranty work, they will be even courteous enough to provide said dealer name and phone number so you can schedule an appointment but that is as far as Ferrari SpA might go.

This might be Keysight's first volley to separate support from the HQ to the sellers/distributors.

It is all a guess though!

There was a distributor for Hameg (before R&S bought them) in the UK. On their website they had the message "if you've bought from RS or Farnell, call them for support", I guess they got peeved for being the help line for the catalogues.

But anyway... I'm amazed that so many electronics engineers on here are able to judge the reasons why a company have made a decision based on a single poster's experience, and then also have better knowledge of consumer and commercial law, public liability requirements, testing and approval... than a $5B company... who have staff that sit on the boards of the testing and approval agencies relating to their products.

If you'd read other threads containing current issues with poor reliability and poor UI issues with modern HPAK instruments, you'd realise the problem is an overpopulation of MBA's, lawyers, and accountants.
It was engineers that made the business, it will be bean-counters that will milk it to death.