Author Topic: LM399/ADR1399  (Read 14310 times)

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Offline Noopy

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Re: LM399/ADR1399
« Reply #50 on: January 20, 2022, 02:51:48 am »
...

The effort they have put in this circuit is amazing.
At a constant temperature you would assume that something like this would give you already a quite stable voltage:


Offline MiDi

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Re: LM399/ADR1399
« Reply #51 on: January 20, 2022, 06:33:07 am »
Is there any information on the ADR1399 in ceramic HLS8 package? what is the exact reference number? Datasheet? specifications?

Not yet, but if there is, you will find it in specific ADR1399 HLS8 thread.
 

Offline Noopy

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Re: LM399/ADR1399
« Reply #52 on: January 21, 2022, 08:16:03 pm »


Now let´s take a look into a ADR1399!

Output voltage is 7,05V. The output impedance is lower than that of the LM399: 0,04Ω(typ) / 0,08Ω(max) vs. 0,5Ω(typ) / 1,5Ω(max).

The datasheet states a faster warm up time (0,1s vs. 2s). That´s interesting because the heater current is the same. Looking at the diagrams you see that the ADR1399 heater controller is just faster. There is a nice little overshoot while the LM399 heats slower but evenly.








The package looks like the package of the LM399.




The package and the die look quite similar to the LM399 but there are two bondwires for the shunt regulator.






The die looks quite similar to the LM399 but there are some differences. It seems like Analog Devices integrated some new functions while trying to leave the structures as similar as possible.






It´s a 399 designed by Analog Devices in 2019.




Seven masks like in the LM399. In the ADR1399 all of them are at the lower edge.
(Have you recognized the different symbols left of the letters? Nice...  8))




Let´s compare the ADR1399 with the schematic of the MAC199 which shows the LM399 circuit quite accurate.






There are a lot of circuit parts that look like LM399 but some of them are wired differently and some parts were added (red).




The circuit looks like this. The ADR1399 die allows Kelvin connection. There are two bondpads for the reference and control circuit and there are two bondpads for the power stage.

The zener D4 has an additional contact which makes it possible to connect the reference potential offside the bias current.

The control circuit T13/T16/T15/T14 is similar to the LM399 but here we have no additional current sink.

T18 seems to limit overvoltages that otherwise would cause current spikes that probably would damage the zener. The collector of T18 seems to be connected to R13/R20 coincidentaly. The collector base breakdown voltage is probably too high to be usefull. I assume R20 had just the right position to use its potential for the well of T18.

The output stage got an additional Transistor (T16), now it´s a Sziklai-Darlington-Stage. You probably need the higher current gain for the lower impedance of the shunt regulator.

The overcurrent protection was changed too. T10 drains base current of T11 if the voltage across R18 gets to high.




The buried zener is oval. It looks similar to the zeners of the LTFLU (https://www.richis-lab.de/REF04.htm).




And it glows in the dark...  ;D

Due to avalanche breakdown fast electrons lift electrons of the atoms on different higher stages. While falling back into their home position they emit different wavelengths.

The glow is located in the middle of the zener a little under the surface.




1mA




10mA

You can see the individual areas where the breakdown occurs. In the LTZ1000 we saw individual areas too (https://www.richis-lab.de/REF03.htm). In the ADR1000 the glow was a little more uniform (https://www.richis-lab.de/REF19.htm).  :-//




Here you can see the contact to the upper n-doped area (red). The contact for the bias current (black) and the additional contact for the reference voltage (cyan). It seems like the two "fingers" do some shielding against the additional contact.  :-//

R10 is low resistance probably because there is no additional current sink. One contact can be varied for different bias currents.

We have talked about the strange transistors. Magic has told us about tuning them for best performance of the reference. Here we see different but still strange transistors: T16 (left) contains two very big emitter areas. The T13 emitter area is very big too.

On the right side there are two contacts two lower the base resistance of T13 (yellow).




The resistor of the current limit circuit can be tuned a little.




Now let´s take a look at the heater.








The reference circuit is the same as in the LM399. Just the voltage divider is more complex (R6, R22, R23, R24, R25, R5). T4, the temperature sensing transistor, is equipped with a second base contact. With the voltage divider resistors and the second base contact you can tune the working temperature of the ADR1399.

The heater stage is the same as in the LM399 but the current limiter looks different. T19 is sensing the current through R1 and drives T3. Furthermore T19 sources its emitter current into the voltage divider of T4.

This circuit made it possible to accelerate the heater. At an cold start-up the heater works in current limit mode. T19 drives T3 which sinks current from T1/T2 to limit the current. Emitter current from T19 makes T4 sinking current too. Collector current of T4 increases with temperature. At some point T4 drains enough current to drive T1/T2 out of current limit area. As a consequence T19 sources less current into the voltage divider and T4 sinks a little less current slowing down the decrease in heater current or in other words holding a high heater current for a longer time.

C6 and R26/C1/R27 were probably necessary to prevent oscillations.




The ADR1399 has been sawn out of the wafer quite nicely while the last bit of the LM399 was broken.


https://www.richis-lab.de/REF20.htm

 :-/O

Offline NaxFM

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Re: LM399/ADR1399
« Reply #53 on: January 21, 2022, 08:34:00 pm »
Wow, thank you for this breakdown!

The 399 label in the die is very curious, makes me think that maybe they just wanted to create un updated version of the 399 but the characteristic were not really 100% compatible with existing designs and maybe decided to create a new part instead?
Of course with the oscillation problem they could have never sold it as a regular 399
« Last Edit: January 21, 2022, 10:18:24 pm by NaxFM »
 

Offline Noopy

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Re: LM399/ADR1399
« Reply #54 on: January 21, 2022, 08:40:22 pm »
 :-+

It seems that Analog wanted or had to change some parts but at the same time they tried to leave as much of the old circuit as possible.

Online Kleinstein

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Re: LM399/ADR1399
« Reply #55 on: January 21, 2022, 09:46:58 pm »
Wow, thank you for this breakdown!

The 399 label in the die is very curious, makes me think that maybe they just wanted to create un updated version of the 399 but the characteristic were not really 100% compatible with existing designs and decided to create a new part instead?
Of course with the oscillation problem they could have never sold it as a regular 399
A slight update with more current to the zener and thus less noise is definitely a good idea. AFAIK there was a similar part with a higher zener current and 10 V output (LM369).
 

Online magic

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Re: LM399/ADR1399
« Reply #56 on: January 21, 2022, 10:28:00 pm »
What's this?
(This is the part that the commies omitted, which made you think that they disconnected the PNP mirror from T16.)


I'm not sure if T10 and R9 aren't connected to T12 emitter rather than ground. But I have no answer to the question where is the resistor bypassing T11 BE junction in such case.

And I disapprove of your choice of graphics format for schematic drawings ;)
 

Offline Noopy

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Re: LM399/ADR1399
« Reply #57 on: January 22, 2022, 04:33:20 am »
What's this?
(This is the part that the commies omitted, which made you think that they disconnected the PNP mirror from T16.)


You talk about the LM399, aren´t you?
Well you can´t be sure if the second "collector connection" is a window in the base area (collector connection) or a emitter area (second emitter).
Of course a emitter would make more sense but it makes no sense to connect it to the collector!?


I'm not sure if T10 and R9 aren't connected to T12 emitter rather than ground. But I have no answer to the question where is the resistor bypassing T11 BE junction in such case.



I have a better picture for you.  :-+


And I disapprove of your choice of graphics format for schematic drawings ;)

Probably you are right...  ;D
 
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Online magic

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Re: LM399/ADR1399
« Reply #58 on: January 22, 2022, 09:33:24 am »
I have a better picture for you.  :-+
That's better :D

I'm talking about both LM399 and ADR1399. It definitely looks like an emitter to me.
It can't be a base connection (the circuit wouldn't work at all).
It's unlikely to be collector (a few collector connections marked in red for reference, look different to me).
There would be no point surrounding a collector connection with a base diffusion.

So what is this reverse biased emitter doing? :-//
 

Offline Noopy

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Re: LM399/ADR1399
« Reply #59 on: January 22, 2022, 04:15:15 pm »
Now I see your point!

My first guess was that there is a hole in the base area making it possible to connect the collector. Of course that would be a strange construction but connecting a spare emitter to the collector is strange too.  :-//
If it's a emitter it would act like a zener hopefully with a higher breakdown voltage than D4 - Vbe of T15. But then it would do nothing...

Perhaps that is something like the circuit you found in the Zeptobars-723: It doesn't make sense but it doesn't cause problems either. Perhaps there is a designer laughing about people like us thinking about this connection.  ;D

Offline Noopy

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Re: LM399/ADR1399
« Reply #60 on: January 24, 2022, 06:48:58 pm »




I have stripped the passivation and the metal layer.
=> Yes, it looks like the leftmost contact of T16 is another emitter.  :-+

https://www.richis-lab.de/REF20.htm#Update
 
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Offline Andreas

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Re: LM399/ADR1399
« Reply #61 on: January 26, 2022, 07:22:12 pm »
Hello,

perhaps interesting for those in DE or in EU: Availability status of ADR1399KH has changed from "0 stock" to some parts available end of February on Mouser.de

with best regards

Andreas
 

Offline Noopy

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Re: LM399/ADR1399
« Reply #62 on: February 04, 2022, 08:51:56 pm »
What's this?
(This is the part that the commies omitted, which made you think that they disconnected the PNP mirror from T16.)





I have a new theory about this structure. Perhaps that´s a lateral NPN in parallel to the vertical NPN. The left emitter could act as second collector.
I´m not sure why one should do this but it would explain why they connected a "emitter" of T16 to T15.


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