Author Topic: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.  (Read 23882 times)

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Online Alex NikitinTopic starter

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Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« on: August 16, 2016, 11:11:03 am »
I've used Pomona 3770 gold plated Tellurium Copper posts with good results for a while, however recently I've ordered a somewhat cheaper "Mueller" posts from Digikey, and found these to be a Chinese copy of Pomona ones, of inferior quality (cracks in the plastic, not as accurate shape) and - most important difference - Pomona posts are gold plated over copper directly, but Mueller ones have a Nickel layer as well (and still the gold layer peels off easily). Pomona posts cost only about 30% more.

Pomona 3770-0/2 - Digikey p/n 501-1612-ND, 501-1699-ND

Mueller BU-P3770-0/2 - Digikey p/n 314-1200-ND, 314-1196-ND

Cheers

Alex
 
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Offline d-smes

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2016, 06:40:10 pm »
Did you call Digi-Key about this?   They should have traceability of the parts they stock to the manufacturer and I bet they would like to know of the quality difference.   Maybe it's Mueller that decided to outsource the part instead of manufacture them...
 

Offline chickenHeadKnob

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2016, 12:24:52 am »
This is a very timely warning for me as I was just about to order the mueller posts. The plating layers should not come off, that is an indication there was a contaminant on the surface. Is the base metal on the mueller really copper? I would think one way to cheap out is to use brass  and simply claim copper which what I suspect most of the ebay sellers do as they think no one will check.
 

Offline KE5FX

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2016, 12:46:00 am »
Tellurium, huh?  I don't want to be around when they test those things for thermal EMF...
 

Online Alex NikitinTopic starter

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2016, 07:27:05 am »
This is a very timely warning for me as I was just about to order the mueller posts. The plating layers should not come off, that is an indication there was a contaminant on the surface. Is the base metal on the mueller really copper? I would think one way to cheap out is to use brass  and simply claim copper which what I suspect most of the ebay sellers do as they think no one will check.

No, the main body on Mueller posts appears to be copper, I've checked by cutting a bit off.

Cheers

Alex
 

Offline Dr. Frank

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2016, 09:19:07 am »
I also would suggest Pomona, for use with high precision standard resistors:

The Pomona 3770 jacks have superior insulator material, it's made from PC, poly carbonate.
This material has electrical parameters of about 10^13 Ohm * m for bulk, and 10^15 Ohm for surface resistance

I also bought the equivalent high quality jacks from mc, multi-contact, PK4-TS (also CuTe alloy). These use PA, poly amid, which is mechanically better, but its resistance parameters are an order of magnitude worse, i.e. 10^12 Ohm *m / 10^14 Ohm .

For voltage references, that makes no difference, but for a 10kOhm resistor, that already yields a possible error of up to 1 ppm.

Frank
« Last Edit: August 17, 2016, 09:23:00 am by Dr. Frank »
 

Offline TiN

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2016, 12:59:32 pm »
There are also these. They are very similar to ones used in Fluke gear.
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Offline splin

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2016, 01:39:33 pm »
and - most important difference - Pomona posts are gold plated over copper directly, but Mueller ones have a Nickel layer as well (and still the gold layer peels off easily). Pomona posts cost only about 30% more.

Poor quality plating is not acceptable of course but is a Nickel layer a few microns thick going to make any difference to thermal EMFs? Unless you have a *great* deal of heat flowing through the connector, I doubt that the temperature difference across the Nickel layer could be more than a few micro Kelvins which translates to a few tens of pico volts. The Nickel is supposed to help avoid corrosion due to pinholes which can ocurr when the gold is plated directly onto copper.

Does anyone have any objective measurements which demonstrate that Nickel plating has any significant effect on thermal EMFs?

 

Offline Dr. Frank

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2016, 03:19:26 pm »
There are also these. They are very similar to ones used in Fluke gear.

These are made from nylon, which is the trademark for PA.. so not the best insulator.. or they made some improvements.
Look like the jacks, which WEEKOM is using. Expensive.

Frank
« Last Edit: August 17, 2016, 06:37:47 pm by Dr. Frank »
 
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Offline BU508A

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2016, 05:03:31 am »
There are also these. They are very similar to ones used in Fluke gear.
These are made from nylon, which is the trademark for PA.. so not the best insulator.. or they made some improvements.
Look like the jacks, which WEEKOM is using. Expensive.

I've requested some weeks ago a quote from LowThermal. This is what I got:

    sales@lowthermal.com wrote:

    10  2758-00 (black)    $23 USD each
    10  2758-02 (red)   $23 USD each
    10  2758-Fork      $2.99 USD each
    10  2758-Ring      $2.99 USD each

Plus shipping, VAT, customs fee etc. of course.

Andreas
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Offline orin

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2016, 06:06:17 am »
I also would suggest Pomona, for use with high precision standard resistors:

The Pomona 3770 jacks have superior insulator material, it's made from PC, poly carbonate.
This material has electrical parameters of about 10^13 Ohm * m for bulk, and 10^15 Ohm for surface resistance


I like the 3770s, but only available in Red or Black from the usual suspects at the moment.

I replaced the binding posts on my Fluke 731B with them, but I think I had to go with the 3750 which is brass/gold plating for the guard terminal.

Orin.
 

Offline wiss

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2016, 08:38:44 pm »
Pomona posts are gold plated over copper directly, but Mueller ones have a Nickel layer as well (and still the gold layer peels off easily). Pomona posts cost only about 30% more.

Is it gold then? Or titaniumnitride?
 

Offline MisterDiodes

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2016, 11:51:13 pm »
I feel like I stumbled onto an Audiophool thread:  If the connectors are expensive, they MUST be good!!  :)

Seriously, be aware:  I have had the opposite experience:  I have some Pomona jacks that are gold over nickle (and lousy mechanical quality), and the Mueller posts that are gold over Te-CU (104 alloy).  Ordered probably a few years ago.  Of course generally you don't use TeCu wire, so regular 110 copper works also...when it's clean.

The "Low Thermal" jacks are suspect also - I'm holding one in my hands, and its gold over what looks to be thin electroless nickle.  I contacted the owner, who confirmed that he didn't think they are actually TeCu, and couldn't confirm the exact coating process.  I thinks it's a replacement part for whatever instruments he reps.  They aren't worth the price IMHO.  We tested them at the lab and they don't work 25 times better than our self-built $1 posts.  They work about the same, actually.

 He's also got spade lugs which are garden variety spades that are gold plated.  They aren't TeCU either.  You can send any crimp lugs to a plating house for gold plating, it's cheap and common.  They don't work any different than the 12 cent spade lug without the plating.

We just machine our own posts from TeCu or regular 110 copper, keep them clean and skip the gold.  The gold only adds a few uV noise - maybe a little more convenient to keep clean but we never use it.  Use a ceramic or teflon insulator, and regular nuts / washers in copper.  Use colored nylon washers at the base for color coding.  Skip the expensive "Low Thermal" leads - clean copper works fine.  The silver-coated stuff is stiff and hard to get a repeatable compression on.  Sometime on finicky setups we use teflon - insulated wire - but watch out for how that material cold-flows and creeps into crimped connections.  Use guard circuits well, and then the wire type is even less important.

For resistor standards under 10k you'll be using 4 wire anyway - and if designed right the binding posts won't matter much.

The bottom line: Mount your binding posts on a good thermal conductor, keep the copper connections clean, and use a small, precision torque wrench on spring-loaded nuts to make a repeatable compression force on the wire - that will make more difference than thermal volatge anyway.  The thermal voltage will generally not be an issue if both binding post are at about same temperature, so keep them covered and draft-free.

SKIP the BANANA plugs if you want repeatable readings.  Those really have no place in precision measurements, usually.

This is how its done at our cal lab, and is by far the most cost-effective way to get repeatable results even into sub ppm range.  We ditched the expensive low thermal connector baloney years ago, and never looked back.

If your binding post system costs more than a few dollars per post, it's maybe not the best way.. at least that's what we've found out during testing.

« Last Edit: August 20, 2016, 04:18:20 pm by MisterDiodes »
 

Offline onemilimeter

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2017, 03:41:09 am »
Recently I ordered Mueller (BU-P3770-0 & BU-P3770-2) and Pomona (3770-0 and 3770-2) binding posts from element14 and Digi-Key. I just received those from element14. The quality of the Mueller parts is quite poor compared to the Pomona parts. For example, the gold-plating layer of the Mueller parts looks inconsistent - some look golden-shinny while other look faded-shinny. Besides, as written on the package, the Mueller parts are all made in China. Still waiting for the parts from Digi-Key, not sure the Mueller parts from Digi-Key will have the same problem.

After inspection the Mueller parts (BU-P3770-0 & BU-P3770-2) ordered from element14, I also found "crack" in the plastic of one of the binding posts.  >:(

Today, I received the Mueller (BU-P3770-0 & BU-P3770-2) from Digi-Key. After inspection, I again also found "crack" in the plastic of one of the binding posts ordered from Digi-Key.  :palm:

By the way, can we consider or still consider Mueller a branded name or trusted brand in the connector industry? (I think the answer is NO)

P/S: Just found this thread after I ordered the binding posts  |O :palm:
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 02:59:34 am by onemilimeter »
 
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Offline TechnicsHiFiFan

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2019, 03:23:48 am »
Hello Alex
That is interesting,. I got Mueller TE coppper posts and the plastic has broken on some. I didnt think the Pomoma would be any different. Also the gold has gone on my posts also.

Ive used them on my speakers and amplifer terminals
 

Offline MiDi

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2019, 05:07:11 am »
This Pomona 3770 are ~1 year old and still looking good.
It seems that the Mueller P3770 are not the same as the Pomonas - even though one would think.

I am not convinced of the quality at that price-point - I would expect better.
In comparison to the Mueller, which are not cheap either, the Pomonas seem to be better.
There are not many options for TeCu posts, so one has to accept the bad bang-for-the-buck.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2019, 05:09:58 am by MiDi »
 

Offline dietert1

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2019, 09:55:54 am »
During the last days i got two offers on copper binding posts which were 30 $ per piece and 66 $ per piece. I also got two different kinds of chinese "pure copper" binding posts, that were all white metal inside (gold plated iron). Multi-contact parts that used to be made from copper, are now brass. So i bought some Pomona 3770.
Their body is copper, yet i noticed that the insulated thumb nut is brass. Don't know why they are doing that. Spade lugs will be sitting between the brass nut and the copper body. Maybe one can use some kind of nylon washer to keep the brass part off.

Regards, Dieter
 

Online wraper

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2019, 10:03:25 am »
and - most important difference - Pomona posts are gold plated over copper directly, but Mueller ones have a Nickel layer as well (and still the gold layer peels off easily).
Nonsense. Nobody will plate gold on copper directly if there is no intention to make short lasting crap.
Quote
With direct gold-on-copper plating, the copper atoms tend to diffuse through the gold layer, causing tarnishing of its surface and formation of an oxide and/or sulphide layer.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2019, 10:06:41 am by wraper »
 

Offline MiDi

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2019, 10:46:47 am »
Nonsense. Nobody will plate gold on copper directly if there is no intention to make short lasting crap.

If done properly (with the help of black magic) this makes sense: e.g. LowThermal, Fluke
 

Offline branadic

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2019, 02:09:07 pm »
I'm sure you need an intermediate layer in any case, be it nickel or silver, otherwise the gold will diffuse into the copper. There is no black magic going on, it's simply chemistry.

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Online wraper

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2019, 02:19:10 pm »
I'm sure you need an intermediate layer in any case, be it nickel or silver, otherwise the gold will diffuse into the copper. There is no black magic going on, it's simply chemistry.

-branadic-
Silver won't do as intermediate layer. It has the same problem with gold as copper but to even worse extent.
 

Online wraper

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2019, 02:26:24 pm »
Nonsense. Nobody will plate gold on copper directly if there is no intention to make short lasting crap.

If done properly (with the help of black magic) this makes sense: e.g. LowThermal, Fluke
It says no nickel. But does not say something like 'no intermediate layer' or 'direct plating'. So I have doubts about that.
 

Offline Magnificent Bastard

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2019, 03:57:13 pm »
The best binding post for low thermal EMF's is solid copper without any plating at all.  That's why quality nanovoltmeters only use pure copper in the input circuitry, including the connectors and cabling.  This does mean that you are expected to keep these connections clean and clear of any copper oxide before making any measurements.  The gold plating is for lazy people that don't want to keep their connections clean, and it comes with "issues".  In my experience, a freshly stripped hunk of plain old cheap Bell telephone wire on freshly cleaned (with DeOxit) solid copper binding posts has performed the best with regard to thermal EMF's.  Try not to "over think" the problem.
 

Offline dietert1

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2019, 04:22:29 pm »
Could you recommend a reliable source for plain, pure copper binding posts? I tried to buy something labeled "pure copper" from china and they sent gold plated iron. Appears like they didn't know any better.

Regards, Dieter
 

Offline MiDi

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2019, 06:03:27 pm »
It says no nickel. But does not say something like 'no intermediate layer' or 'direct plating'. So I have doubts about that.

How would you interpret:
Quote
tellurium copper and are direct plated with gold
 
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Offline MiDi

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2019, 07:48:01 pm »
Could you recommend a reliable source for plain, pure copper binding posts?

Seems you missed the group buy.
 

Offline dietert1

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2019, 08:48:08 pm »
Yes, and i think some of the remarks in this discussion are pretty academic. How about the advantages of implementing a complete metrology lab with silver instead of copper. Conductivity of silver is better than copper, isn't it? If you can't find silver binding posts, make them!

Regards, Dieter
 

Offline FriedLogic

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2019, 12:02:15 pm »
I see that Pomona also does a tin plated brass version. Are there any particular issues with tin as a plating?
 

Offline klimm

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2020, 03:47:08 pm »
Yeah, I know it is an old thread but to keep the things about low EMF  connected...
 
... How about the advantages of implementing a complete metrology lab with silver instead of copper. Conductivity of silver is better than copper, isn't it? If you can't find silver binding posts, make them!

Regards, Dieter

With respect to silver, having some silver connectors I am considering this my self but seemingly, the silver connectors tend to develop an oxide layer as I find in a paper. Now, copper does this too. 
 

Offline Lesolee

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2020, 09:42:38 am »
Poor quality plating is not acceptable of course but is a Nickel layer a few microns thick going to make any difference to thermal EMFs?

and - most important difference - Pomona posts are gold plated over copper directly, but Mueller ones have a Nickel layer as well (and still the gold layer peels off easily).
Nonsense. Nobody will plate gold on copper directly if there is no intention to make short lasting crap.
Quote
With direct gold-on-copper plating, the copper atoms tend to diffuse through the gold layer, causing tarnishing of its surface and formation of an oxide and/or sulphide layer.

Our suppliers won't plate gold directly on brass for this same reason. They insist on a 10nm nickel flash. Other interlayers are probably available.

I know this is an old thread, but Mouser just started selling the Mueller ones, and I bought one.  |O
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2020, 02:15:24 pm »
Ag vs Cu:  look it up!  The conductivity of silver is only 5% higher than copper.  In normal conditions, Cu oxidizes, forming a copper oxide semiconductor, but Ag reacts with sulfur in the atmosphere to form the black tarnish you see on silverware.  The advantage of gold is that the surface will remain untarnished in normal conditions.
 

Online leighcorrigall

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2021, 01:15:41 pm »
There seems to be only two commercially available options that I am aware of for Copper-Tellurium:

LowThermal 2758 (33 USD, quoted May 26 2021 ; 30 USD each in quantities 1-9 & 28.50 USD each to quantities of 99, quoted November 12 2020)
Advantages:
-Au plated Cu-Te (for 'lazy people')
-appearance

Disadvantages:
-insulation is Nylon (not as good as polycarbonate)
-cost keeps rising
-often backordered (next availability, mid-July)

Pomona 3770 (12 USD, price from Mouser on May 27 2021)
Advantages:
-cheap
-Au plated Cu-Te (for 'lazy people')
-superior polycarbonate insulation

Disadvantages:
-looks cheap
-comes with inferior nuts and washers that should not be used for metrology grade applications

Does anyone have other suggestions for Binding Posts? Keep in mind that most of us do not have a machine shop to make our own. I love the new Fluke and Advantest posts, but I doubt they sell them to us plebeians. If anyone has some LowThermal posts that they don't mind parting with, please PM me. Thanks!
« Last Edit: May 27, 2021, 01:37:53 pm by leighcorrigall »
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Offline exe

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2021, 08:52:14 pm »
-insulation is Nylon (not as good as polycarbonate)

In which situation that would be an issue?
 

Offline Dr. Frank

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2021, 09:36:52 pm »
-insulation is Nylon (not as good as polycarbonate)

In which situation that would be an issue?

For building high precision resistance standards and dividers!

Taking a 10kOhm resistor in a metal shielding box and to ensure <= 0.5ppm error from the insulation would require > 1011 Ohm insulation from each of the binding posts.
I have used the obsolete CuTe binding posts from multi contact, PK4-TS, I think the plastic was PA, and you could easily measure too high leakage currents of ~ nA @ 100V test voltage, (don't remember the exact measurements any more) leading to nearly 1ppm error..

If you realize a precision divider like 720A, or the 752A, there's the very same situation, even worse, as the resistance values used are orders of magnitude higher.

Therefore PC of the Pomonas 3770 is superior for these use cases.

Another disadvantage is that latter might be more brittle.. I have had no problem so far.

Frank
« Last Edit: May 27, 2021, 10:21:16 pm by Dr. Frank »
 
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Online leighcorrigall

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2021, 09:57:40 pm »

For building high precision resistance standards and dividers!

Taking a 10kOhm resistor in a metal shielding box and to ensure <= 0.5ppm error from the insulation would require > 1011 Ohm insulation from each of the binding posts.

...


Exactly. I am in the process of ordering a NIST Calibrated Vishay Y473310K0000S0L (HZ Series) 4-wire resistor with PMO and I am concerned about the quality of binding posts for the job. Hence, my inquiry of binding post options. I suppose there will be less interference because of the kelvin connections, but I don't want to risk anything unnecessarily. I am not exactly an expert, but I understand the importance of materials selection. Pomona 3770 binding posts seem to be the best option unless I can get my hands on something better. Still considering the LowThermal option and mounting the posts on something with higher electrical resistance and a layer of shielding. Tricky business.
MASc, EIT, PhD Candidate
 
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Offline branadic

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2021, 10:00:49 pm »
Pomona 3770 are quite brittle and I also had some of them broken, because they were delivered with obvious strain cracks inside the plastic, but BU-P3770 by Mueller Electric are even worse.

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Offline BU508A

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2021, 10:26:33 pm »
I don't know your timeline, but from time to time,
some broken (for parts, not working) ESI SR1010 resistor boxes are showing up on ebay.
If you could get one of those, then you can get some very high quality low-thermal EMF binding posts (and some good resistors too).

Examples:
ESI SR1010 series:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=esi+sr1010&_sop=12

A bit more expensive: ESI SR1030 series:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=esi+sr1030&_sop=12

Example for a 100kOhm steps unit:


« Last Edit: May 27, 2021, 10:31:34 pm by BU508A »
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Online leighcorrigall

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2021, 11:08:21 pm »
I don't know your timeline, but from time to time,
some broken (for parts, not working) ESI SR1010 resistor boxes are showing up on ebay.
If you could get one of those, then you can get some very high quality low-thermal EMF binding posts (and some good resistors too).

Examples:
ESI SR1010 series:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=esi+sr1010&_sop=12

A bit more expensive: ESI SR1030 series:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=esi+sr1030&_sop=12

Example for a 100kOhm steps unit:


Great suggestion!

I notice that there are subtle differences between the two types of binding posts used on the SR1010 Series. See the lower resistance range. The SR1030 seems to be using all the same type.

My guess is that ESI is still using the same recipe as what they are listing today: https://www.ietlabs.com/binding-posts-bp-1000.html

They use polycarbonate insulators and have stood up to the test of time.

Thank you, BU508A.
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Offline BU508A

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2021, 01:46:25 pm »
Just for entertainment reasons I've requested a quote for 10 red and 10 black binding posts.

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Online Kosmic

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2021, 02:27:51 pm »
Just for entertainment reasons I've requested a quote for 10 red and 10 black binding posts.



Probably better to live with the fact that the Pomona binding post might break  :)
 

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2021, 02:31:37 pm »
Just for entertainment reasons I've requested a quote for 10 red and 10 black binding posts.



Probably better to live with the fact that the Pomona binding post might break  :)

Better to live in a country that has a lower relative currency to the USD. Apparently, they are making so much money from these binding posts that they can charge the same magnitude in any country.  :-DD

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Offline martinr33

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2021, 05:59:59 pm »
I sort of like the idea of stripping a cheap 1010 for sockets. I'd feel better about if there was a busted, broken one up for sale.

However, for $300, a little labor, and maybe a crisis of conscience you get 26 battle-tested black nut gold-plated banana jacks (the metallic nuts don't have the panel insulator).

On the down side, no colors, and the obsession as to what to do with a stack of wafer resistors.

 
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Offline Robert763

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2021, 04:42:30 pm »

For building high precision resistance standards and dividers!

Taking a 10kOhm resistor in a metal shielding box and to ensure <= 0.5ppm error from the insulation would require > 1011 Ohm insulation from each of the binding posts.

...


Exactly. I am in the process of ordering a NIST Calibrated Vishay Y473310K0000S0L (HZ Series) 4-wire resistor with PMO and I am concerned about the quality of binding posts for the job. Hence, my inquiry of binding post options. I suppose there will be less interference because of the kelvin connections, but I don't want to risk anything unnecessarily. I am not exactly an expert, but I understand the importance of materials selection. Pomona 3770 binding posts seem to be the best option unless I can get my hands on something better. Still considering the LowThermal option and mounting the posts on something with higher electrical resistance and a layer of shielding. Tricky business.

Kelvin connections will not help with leakage resistance. In fact with all else being equal a 4 terminal resistor will have more leakage then a two terminal because there are more insulators to leak.
A guarded connection will compensate for leakage.
It can also be misleadng to just consider the bulk resistivity of the raw plastic used for insulators to compare different terminals. While it obviously has an influence, so does the shape and size of the insulator. Additives such as dyes can also have a big influence.
 
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Offline TimFox

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2021, 04:57:15 pm »
Also, the bulk resistivity of an insulating material allows you to estimate the leakage resistance through the insulator, but often the leakage is dominated by surface "creepage" along the insulator.  Guarding is effective against surface effects.
 
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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #44 on: June 22, 2021, 05:44:24 pm »
I was really hoping that my research into binding post alternatives would pay off when I spoke with Guildline https://guildline.com/primary-electrical-metrology/resistance-standards/precision-dc-air-standard-resistors. Apparently, this international metrology company with a branch in Canada are now switching over to LowThermal 2758 Series binding posts too. According to a representative, they used to make their own binding posts from beryllium-copper and are phasing these parts out for something readily available.  :palm:

My current lead is JP FineChem (E&C) https://www.jfine.co.jp/eng/e_c/resistorbox/, who manufacture ultra-high voltage precision resistors and enclosures with Miyama Electric Co binding posts http://www.miyama.co.jp/products/category/miyama_cat-202011G.pdf. See the MT-122,123,124, and 129 Series binding posts. Some of the JP FineChem product illustrations that appear in colour show the conductors as gold plated (see attached). Maybe they haven't cheaped out on the base metal? When I find out if they are really copper (with either beryllium or tellurium alloying elements) I will let people know.  :-+
« Last Edit: June 22, 2021, 05:48:44 pm by leighcorrigall »
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Offline mawyatt

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #45 on: June 23, 2021, 01:16:09 am »
Also, the bulk resistivity of an insulating material allows you to estimate the leakage resistance through the insulator, but often the leakage is dominated by surface "creepage" along the insulator.  Guarding is effective against surface effects.

Guarding can be a very effective technique. We utilizing "Guarding" to reduce surface contamination leakage effects to electron/seconds levels with specialized high sensitivity Night Vision Imaging chips (patent 8102452 Electron Imaging Pixel Leakage Reduction), where every electron mattered. The technique was "borrowed" from the 1960s (maybe earlier) concept of reducing cable capacitance by driving the cable inter-shield with a replica of the analog signal on the center conductor. Since the displacement current (capacitive current) is proportional to capacitance times voltage rate of change (I=C*dv/dt), the voltage rate of change was significantly reduced because the differential voltage between the center conductor and shield was reduced, thus dv/dt ~ 0. Since there is no dv/dt, the signal experiences no displacement current, thus no capacitance! This works well if the center and shield voltages don't deviate from each other, or in other words the center and shield voltages have the same phase change (and voltage level) along the cable. Very clever technique from the old analog days, wouldn't be surprised if the old Tektronix didn't have a hand in this "Guarding" development way back then.

Best,
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
~Wyatt Labs by Mike~
 
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Offline TimFox

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #46 on: June 23, 2021, 03:14:00 am »
Actually, guarding goes back to the very old days of electrical bridges.  A reasonably modern version is the Keithley 515A:  http://doc.xdevs.com/doc/Keithley/515/515A%28Model515A%29.pdf
 

Offline RaymondMack

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #47 on: July 02, 2021, 03:10:54 am »
Ag vs Cu:  look it up!  The conductivity of silver is only 5% higher than copper.  In normal conditions, Cu oxidizes, forming a copper oxide semiconductor, but Ag reacts with sulfur in the atmosphere to form the black tarnish you see on silverware.  The advantage of gold is that the surface will remain untarnished in normal conditions.

It depends on the trace gases present, but Silver generally does not oxidize as fast as copper. If you have a natural gas heating system, then you will have much higher trace compounds that will react with silver and cause it to oxidize at an accelerated rate.

I have many silver plated RF connectors that still look white and (mostly) oxide free that are well over 10 years old. On the other hand, I have bought random lots of vintage RF connectors from eBay that had some silver connectors that were black as sin (though they cleaned up nicely using the aluminum foil and sodium bicarbonate trick). I also have some stripped copper wire that has turned brown in just over a week (which can be removed with citric or ascorbic acid when tin or zinc is not present).

As for earlier comments about direct gold plating: Gold will readily diffuse into copper without a diffusion barrier like nickel present. However, if the plating is thick enough, then you can get away without using the diffusion barrier. Commercially speaking, this requires much more gold than manufacturers would like to use. With the exception of audio fools, you really only see this approach done on older test/calibration equipment. For example, this is the plating process HP used on the 419A DC Null Voltmeter's input terminals. Leeds and Northrup's binding posts (for bare copper wire connections) also use gold flash directly on copper. They also chose to save costs with a brass nut since the copper wire would directly touch the gold-on-copper terminal.

A diffusion barrier is really just a way to cut costs (and use a thinner plating). It is not a set-in-stone requirement.

Personally, I hate cleaning bare copper. So I tend to avoid using it outside of critical short term applications. Unfortunately, most modern gold platings (i.e., economically thin platings) aren't that great either. I've seen 40 micron or less platings of gold literally peel off due to holes in the gold surface coat that allow chemical attack of the underlying nickel to take place. Older stuff that had over 40 micron coatings seem to last forever under minimal connect/disconnect cycles. So there is some optimal thickness here.

From what I've seen firsthand, the "heavy" gold flash platings (usually having a dull sheen) have the highest wear characteristic since the plating is so thick. Thin platings of gold in high friction environments (i.e., a 4mm banana plug or cable) do not last long and the nickel under coat becomes visible after a while.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2021, 03:16:28 am by RaymondMack »
 
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Online leighcorrigall

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #48 on: July 09, 2021, 05:27:47 pm »

...

My current lead is JP FineChem (E&C) https://www.jfine.co.jp/eng/e_c/resistorbox/, who manufacture ultra-high voltage precision resistors and enclosures with Miyama Electric Co binding posts http://www.miyama.co.jp/products/category/miyama_cat-202011G.pdf. See the MT-122,123,124, and 129 Series binding posts. Some of the JP FineChem product illustrations that appear in colour show the conductors as gold plated (see attached). Maybe they haven't cheaped out on the base metal? When I find out if they are really copper (with either beryllium or tellurium alloying elements) I will let people know.  :-+

According to the manufacturer,  MT-123/MT-124 conductor material is nickel-plated brass. The HVR10000 resistance standard conductor material is gold plated.

JP FineChem must request customized binding posts from Miyama in a bulk order.

Sorry friends. Looks like there are Pomona, LowThermal, and ESI that can be purchased new in low quantities.  :'(
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Offline martinr33

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #49 on: July 18, 2021, 09:47:09 pm »
Viborrg has some pricey, but well built, products with high-grade copper. These products are built as audio exotica, but have decent materials.

http://www.viborgaudio.com/en/Product/SDFFASD/

However - they seem a lot more expensve than can be justified over the Pomonas.

Bananas are harder to find. Vibor spring bananas are about $8 each, and I found some tubular bananas for $20 each.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01KTBBVNO/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Gold over silver spades are about $4 each.

On eBay, I have come to the conclusion that " pure copper" means "brass".

If they are not brass, they are pot metal (low grade zinc alloy). Pot metal connectors appear to be used in that infamous 10V reference.

The low cost Pomona TeCu banana sockets have zinck plated hardware. You would have to source copper nuts and washers or solder to the terminals.














 
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Offline notfaded1

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #50 on: July 23, 2021, 04:54:35 pm »
If they are not brass, they are pot metal (low grade zinc alloy). Pot metal connectors appear to be used in that infamous 10V reference.
What's the infamous 10V reference?

Thanks,

Bill
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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #52 on: August 10, 2021, 10:07:06 am »
I have built a 1% high resistance box, for internal insulation/megger testing, for which i had used a brass-gold plated multi-comp binding post (SPC15203 and SPC15208). They were pretty cheap USD 4 each. The values i recorded had a good repeatability. I had tested only till 1 gig ohms at 1000 volt. I was thinking of upgrading the box with 1 tera ohms resistors and binding post that can withstand 10kV. Not sure if i can use the same binding post and test 1 tera ohms at 10kV. The multi-comp datasheet does not have any technical details other than max 15Amps. Any leads for upgrade will be helpful.
 

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #53 on: August 10, 2021, 12:02:36 pm »
I have built a 1% high resistance box, for internal insulation/megger testing, for which i had used a brass-gold plated multi-comp binding post (SPC15203 and SPC15208). They were pretty cheap USD 4 each. The values i recorded had a good repeatability. I had tested only till 1 gig ohms at 1000 volt. I was thinking of upgrading the box with 1 tera ohms resistors and binding post that can withstand 10kV. Not sure if i can use the same binding post and test 1 tera ohms at 10kV. The multi- (Attachment Link) comp datasheet does not have any technical details other than max 15Amps. Any leads for upgrade will be helpful.

Welcome GWL,

As I mentioned previously, JP Fine Chem designs and manufacturers ultra-high voltage resistance references:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/low-thermal-emf-binding-posts-a-quality-warning/msg3592418/#msg3592418
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/low-thermal-emf-binding-posts-a-quality-warning/msg3604042/#msg3604042

JP Fine Chem (also known as E&C) uses custom-made Miyama binding posts. You might not be able to acquire these binding posts as a consumer, but you could ask anyways. I spoke to a representative at DMTL from the UK (https://www.dmtl.co.uk/) and they were very helpful in answering my questions.

The JP Fine company also makes high voltage measuring equipment:
https://www.jfine.co.jp/eng/e_c/voltage/index.html

By the way, what brand are your tera-ohm resistors? I would love to know your experience with them in the precision resistors general thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/precision-resistors-general-thread/
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Offline e61_phil

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #54 on: August 13, 2021, 10:31:13 pm »
I have built a 1% high resistance box, for internal insulation/megger testing, for which i had used a brass-gold plated multi-comp binding post (SPC15203 and SPC15208). They were pretty cheap USD 4 each. The values i recorded had a good repeatability. I had tested only till 1 gig ohms at 1000 volt. I was thinking of upgrading the box with 1 tera ohms resistors and binding post that can withstand 10kV. Not sure if i can use the same binding post and test 1 tera ohms at 10kV. The multi- (Attachment Link) comp datasheet does not have any technical details other than max 15Amps. Any leads for upgrade will be helpful.

Nice box!

I'm interested in your 10kV setup: Do you have 10kV with such low uncertainties that it make sense to measure with 10kV instead of 1kV?

I can generate 10kV with <10ppm uncertainty, but that is a lot of effort.
 

Offline martinr33

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #55 on: August 24, 2021, 12:00:20 am »
Unpleasant discovery.

When installing copper binding posts - make sure that the front terminal nuts are loose, several turns or so.

Otherwise, when you tighten the rear nut, you will hear the snap of your post breaking at the wire holes. It doesn't take much, you can do it with a nut driver.

Low thermal copper is not as strong as brass.
 

Offline dietert1

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #56 on: August 24, 2021, 05:16:49 am »
If you want something stronger, you can try EIZZ EZ-303. Those are speaker terminals made from CuTe (!) and they are about 15 € per piece. I got some at www.audiophonics.fr.
They look like having about twice as much copper than a Pomona 3770.

Regards, Dieter
 
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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #57 on: August 24, 2021, 08:42:31 am »
If you want something stronger, you can try EIZZ EZ-303. Those are speaker terminals made from CuTe (!) and they are about 15 € per piece. I got some at www.audiophonics.fr.
They look like having about twice as much copper than a Pomona 3770.

Regards, Dieter

Nice find, Dieter.

It would be nice to know what insulating material they use if they have not already said so. If you can, see if there is a thin nickel coating or something else suspicious hiding under that 'gold' coating with a strong magnet. Sometimes they will gold coat iron.

I love how it is blatantly obvious that these posts came from China. When I get back from vacation I am going to see if my friend can identify the manufacturer so we can avoid the middle man.  :-DD
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Offline dietert1

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #58 on: August 24, 2021, 10:02:51 am »
Yes, when they arrived, the first thing i did was look at the inside, and it had a similar reddish shine like the Pomonas. Nothing silvery. The body doesn't react at all with a strong magnet, including the set screw. The gold plated decoration of the knob and the back nut show a minute, hardly detectable attraction.
I bought from France to save time, they had some stock.

Meanwhile we also have a second SR1010 with 100 Ohm steps and with copper binding posts while the first one with 1 KOhm steps has binding posts made of white, non-magnetic metal.

Regards, Dieter
 

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #59 on: August 24, 2021, 10:05:54 am »
If you want something stronger, you can try EIZZ EZ-303. Those are speaker terminals made from CuTe (!) and they are about 15 € per piece. I got some at www.audiophonics.fr.
They look like having about twice as much copper than a Pomona 3770.

Regards, Dieter

Nice find, Dieter.

It would be nice to know what insulating material they use if they have not already said so. If you can, see if there is a thin nickel coating or something else suspicious hiding under that 'gold' coating with a strong magnet. Sometimes they will gold coat iron.

I love how it is blatantly obvious that these posts came from China. When I get back from vacation I am going to see if my friend can identify the manufacturer so we can avoid the middle man.  :-DD
Here you go:
http://eizz.cn/en-us/x23.html
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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #60 on: August 27, 2021, 03:09:51 am »
They do look nice, and that is a good price.

However - the Aliexpress ones call out brass, but also mention no nickel plate, which I have only seen on copper terminals. No nickel plate is consistent with the lack of magnetic attraction.

We may need some filing to see.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32722111716.html
 

Offline dietert1

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #61 on: August 27, 2021, 08:25:06 am »
I would not trust that aliexpress any more than the EIZZ web page.
As far as i understand they have them in brass and CuTe (different product IDs). If i buy from a french company selling it as CuTe, i can insist. As i wrote above, i did the filing as soon as they arrived and it looked like the CuTe of the Pomonas, and softer than brass.
Recently we got a FLIR camara, and one day i will buy one of those handheld X-Ray analyzers they use for metallurgy (garbage recycling). As far as i understand it discovers traces of Pb in RoHS products and many other metals, depending on the setup.
Or make a thermal EMF voltage setup to do a real measurement.

Regards, Dieter
« Last Edit: August 27, 2021, 03:11:24 pm by dietert1 »
 

Offline OscarM

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #62 on: January 12, 2023, 07:38:09 pm »
This seems as good as place as any (even if it is old) to post this picture.

I received these from Digi-key last week.

When is a 3770-0 not a 3770-0 ?

Its not obvious but they are still in the original packaging.
It isn't a trick of the lighting.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2023, 07:40:15 pm by OscarM »
 

Offline sahko123

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Re: Low thermal EMF binding posts - a quality warning.
« Reply #63 on: January 12, 2023, 10:28:35 pm »
one of those is the 3760 which is tin plated. So pomona must have screwed up the packaging
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