Author Topic: Lowest drift, lowest noise voltage reference (ADR1000AHZ)  (Read 58206 times)

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Offline YetAnotherTechie

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Re: Lowest drift, lowest noise voltage reference (ADR1000AHZ)
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2021, 07:10:58 pm »
I seem to have missed the big ADR1000 sale :))) Where do you get them?
They are already available in alibaba  :-DD
 
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Offline ScoobyDoo

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Re: Lowest drift, lowest noise voltage reference (ADR1000AHZ)
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2021, 08:08:55 pm »

Hello everyone - I have an update for all potential ADR1000AHZ buyers:

They can buy through ADI’s distribution arm.   It is called ADX
Analog Devices Express (ADX) | Design Center | Analog Devices
https://www.analog.com/en/design-center/device-programming.html

Also any customer can reach out to Rui Zhou or Carlos Sanchez to inquire about product availability and sales of the ADR1000AHZ. 
We can provide them with a datasheet but no extensive technical support.  This is why it is not on the web.

Carlos.Sanchez@analog.com
Rui.Zhou@analog.com

Best regards
ScoobyDoo
 
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Offline ScoobyDoo

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Re: Lowest drift, lowest noise voltage reference (ADR1000AHZ)
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2021, 07:05:39 pm »
Hello Folks

                good news is coming - Carlos, Rui and ADI team are adding the ADR1000AHZ in the ADI webshop online - part will be visible within a day or so.

You will be able to pay with credit card - no credit letter is needed

To be updated soon !

Best regards
ScoobyDoo
 
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Offline Andreas

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Re: Lowest drift, lowest noise voltage reference (ADR1000AHZ)
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2021, 04:34:21 am »
They are already available in alibaba  :-DD
but who wants the SMD plastic package?

Mouser germany also lists the device (0 Stock limited availability)
https://www.mouser.de/ProductDetail/Analog-Devices/ADR1000AHZ?qs=%2Fha2pyFadugtPWjaDttya%2FKT5U0JA9UT00v1%252BPGnc%252Bo%3D

has someone got already a offer from them?

with best regards

Andreas
 

Offline quarks

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Re: Lowest drift, lowest noise voltage reference (ADR1000AHZ)
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2021, 08:48:31 am »
not yet

EDIT: today Mouser wrote me they cannot make me an offer for ADR1000
« Last Edit: September 24, 2021, 09:40:18 am by quarks »
 

Offline ScoobyDoo

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Re: Lowest drift, lowest noise voltage reference (ADR1000AHZ)
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2021, 09:11:46 pm »
Hello folks
                The ADR1000AHZ is now available from the ADI online webshop.
The MOQ has been set as low as one to reach all Voltnuts - (MOQ = 1).
The part will be monitored for a period of at least six months to understand if this is a viable (sustainable) path for ADI - so pls. order as much as you can ...
ADI might raise the MOQ to 5 coming days ...
You need to be logged in in order to view the part and price

Best regards
ScoobyDoo
 
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Online TiN

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Re: Lowest drift, lowest noise voltage reference (ADR1000AHZ)
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2021, 04:10:23 am »
Inspired by chuckb and his light show experiments I've reattached camera onto microscope over my decapitated ADR1000 chipie and turned off all lights in lab. And after some pondering at camera settings (ended up ISO1600 30", so kinda grainy) we got stray photos escaping zener effect region. ADR1000 is very poor LED in that regard. And yes, when I triggered battery operated photoflash (to get countour exposed) I can see a big jump in output 6.611850V voltage on K2002. So it's photodetector now too.







YouTube | Metrology IRC Chat room | Let's share T&M documentation? Upload! No upload limits for firmwares, photos, files.
 
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Offline martinr33

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Re: Lowest drift, lowest noise voltage reference (ADR1000AHZ)
« Reply #32 on: September 17, 2021, 05:41:35 am »
ADR1000AHZ is at MOQ of 5 in the US. I may try and call them tomorrow.
 

Offline chuckb

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Re: Lowest drift, lowest noise voltage reference (ADR1000AHZ)
« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2021, 12:22:27 pm »
TiN
Was the glowing chip at 4 or 8ma?
 

Offline Noopy

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Re: Lowest drift, lowest noise voltage reference (ADR1000AHZ)
« Reply #34 on: October 02, 2021, 05:07:25 am »


Of course I had to take some pictures of the ADR1000 too.  ;D
Special thanks to harerod (https://www.harerod.de/) for donating the part.  :-+








In the ADR1000 pin 4 is connected to the case. In the LTZ1000 (https://www.richis-lab.de/REF03.htm) the case wasn´t connected to pin 4 directly. There was just a connection through the substrate.




The die attache is done with some glue like material.
LTZ1000 was soldered which gave you a temperature resistance of 80K/W.
LTZ1000A was glued with some special fluffy polymer you can see in the LT1088 too (https://www.richis-lab.de/LT1088.htm). The temperature resistance was risen to 400K/W.
For the ADR1000 216K/W had to be good enough.




A very clean edge! Perhaps it´s normal. Perhaps they expended effort to get cleaner edges since impurities due to sawing of the wafer can worsen the stability?




Analog applied two layers of metal.






ADR1000 is quite similar to the LTZ1000 but the heater structure is much simpler, no more spare structures.




Let´s take a closer look at the circuit. There are two additional bondpads leading to the reference circuit.








With the two metal layers the circuit is a little harder to read...




The active parts are the same as in the LTZ1000 but here we have the possibility of a 4-wire-connection! VREF and GND are connected a second time directly at the zener-transistor-combo so the bias current and the traces conducting the current don´t interfere with the reference voltage. The sense traces are connected to the two unused bondpads.




Trying to clarify the connections.






And of course I had to light it up (5mA).  ;D
It looks like the light is more uniform than in the LTZ1000. Perhaps here we see one reason for the lower noise figure? A more uniform structure in the buried zener?


https://www.richis-lab.de/REF19.htm

 :-/O

Offline branadic

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Re: Lowest drift, lowest noise voltage reference (ADR1000AHZ)
« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2021, 07:03:30 am »
Thanks for the pictures. I'm somewhat of two minds, on one side I like to see some of the insides, on the other hand all that parts are lost forever :(

Quote
In the ADR1000 pin 4 is connected to the case. In the LTZ1000 (https://www.richis-lab.de/REF03.htm) the case wasn´t connected to pin 4 directly. There was just a connection through the substrate.

The die attache is done with some glue like material.
LTZ1000 was soldered which gave you a temperature resistance of 80K/W.
LTZ1000A was glued with some special fluffy polymer you can see in the LT1088 too (https://www.richis-lab.de/LT1088.htm). The temperature resistance was risen to 400K/W.
For the ADR1000 216K/W had to be good enough.

That's a mistake, LT used ICA aka conductive adhesive in the LTZ1000, the die isn't soldered. In the LTZ1000A the adhesive is filled with glass beads, a material that hasn't many suppliers and was thought of for ADR1000 too, as said by Eric Modica at MM2021.

Quote
A very clean edge! Perhaps it´s normal. Perhaps they expended effort to get cleaner edges since impurities due to sawing of the wafer can worsen the stability?

Looks like a normal wafer saw cut with diamond blade.

Quote
ADR1000 is quite similar to the LTZ1000 but the heater structure is much simpler, no more spare structures.

Ah, you missed that part of explaination on that by Eric Modica.

Quote
The active parts are the same as in the LTZ1000 but here we have the possibility of a 4-wire-connection!

I already spotted that force-sense connections on the pictures provided by TiN. Unfortunately the package is missing two more pins to make use of them. Maybe at some point we will see ADR1000 in a different 10-pin package too?

-branadic-
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Offline dietert1

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Re: Lowest drift, lowest noise voltage reference (ADR1000AHZ)
« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2021, 08:00:25 am »
At least they could have bonded the second connection to the existing pins. The weak points are the two wire bonds on each wire and redundancy would already help. I'd consider that half ready.

Regards, Dieter
 

Offline Kleinstein

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Re: Lowest drift, lowest noise voltage reference (ADR1000AHZ)
« Reply #37 on: October 02, 2021, 08:26:36 am »
I would not consider the lack of kelvin sensing a real problem. The temperature is quite constant and thus a constant resistance for the trace and bind wire.
A slightly wider trace my be possible if the extra one for kelvin sensing is made thinner or left out. Even the pin temperature is still quite stable. The current is also constant and thus only a rather constant part of maybe 1 mV or so.
 

Offline Noopy

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Re: Lowest drift, lowest noise voltage reference (ADR1000AHZ)
« Reply #38 on: October 02, 2021, 08:42:15 am »
Thanks for the pictures. I'm somewhat of two minds, on one side I like to see some of the insides, on the other hand all that parts are lost forever :(

You are right but after all the ADR1000 is still in production.


LT used ICA aka conductive adhesive in the LTZ1000, the die isn't soldered. In the LTZ1000A the adhesive is filled with glass beads, a material that hasn't many suppliers and was thought of for ADR1000 too, as said by Eric Modica at MM2021.

Thanks for the info!
That means that in the LT1088 they used something different:
https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/application-notes/an22.pdf
"air impregnated polymer die attach"


Quote
ADR1000 is quite similar to the LTZ1000 but the heater structure is much simpler, no more spare structures.

Ah, you missed that part of explaination on that by Eric Modica.

That´s right. Can you enlight me?

Offline imo

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Re: Lowest drift, lowest noise voltage reference (ADR1000AHZ)
« Reply #39 on: October 02, 2021, 08:57:11 am »
Ask ADI for chips/dies only. I bet you get them for a small fraction of the ADR1000 price.
And you may experiment - I think bonding 10 wires cannot be a big problem in Germany..
 

Offline Kleinstein

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Re: Lowest drift, lowest noise voltage reference (ADR1000AHZ)
« Reply #40 on: October 02, 2021, 09:05:28 am »
Just massive glass beads would not help much with thermal conductivity. It would need some hollow glass beads to really make a difference.
Massive beads would only help to get a thicker layer, which may be enough.

For a low power use, there would be the option to use the power of the external heater transistor too. Just spread it out evenly to make good use of it instead of putting the transistor in the most distant corner of the circuit.
 

Offline harerod

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Re: Lowest drift, lowest noise voltage reference (ADR1000AHZ)
« Reply #41 on: October 02, 2021, 11:25:58 am »
Thanks for the pictures. I'm somewhat of two minds, on one side I like to see some of the insides, on the other hand all that parts are lost forever
...

I had a similar emotion, when I randomly picked that poor little lamb out of its flock.
Noopy contacted me to buy an ADR1000, with the express intention to provide die pictures for the EE community. The reason why I decided to support his work, is because noopy has been sharing the excellent results of his considerable efforts with the community for years.
I also hope that the high quality of his pictures will keep serving as a basis for technical discussions and keep many others from cracking components open, since they would have a hard time generating better results.
 
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Online Dr. Frank

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Re: Lowest drift, lowest noise voltage reference (ADR1000AHZ)
« Reply #42 on: October 02, 2021, 12:53:49 pm »
...
And of course I had to light it up (5mA).  ;D
It looks like the light is more uniform than in the LTZ1000. Perhaps here we see one reason for the lower noise figure? A more uniform structure in the buried zener?


https://www.richis-lab.de/REF19.htm

 :-/O

Hello Noopy,
thank you for the die pictures and your analysis.

In the session, I posed the question to Eric Modia, how they achieved these 50% noise level compared to the LTZ.
His answers were
1. "Pure luck"
2. "Due to the lower reference voltage, the zener structure of the ADR1000 operates in the Zener effect mode, compared to the LTZ which operates in the more noisy Avalanche mode"

That sounded reasonable at first, but I can't judge his statement.

Anyhow, after my next question Eric seemed to be surprised, that the ADR1000 can be (and should be) operated with an un-heated TC = 0ppm/K by choosing appropriate zener and collector currents.
His advise though, to use 8mA for the zener, is definitely a wild guess and not necessary at all. See my measurements in this thread.

Frank
« Last Edit: October 02, 2021, 02:18:23 pm by Dr. Frank »
 
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Offline magic

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Re: Lowest drift, lowest noise voltage reference (ADR1000AHZ)
« Reply #43 on: October 02, 2021, 01:51:22 pm »
Comparing the images side by side, I see that dimensions and layout are almost the same as LTZ1000.
Several people who attended the MM mentioned that the chip was under development for many years. Is this a rebranded "LTZ1001" from Linear or a clone that AD worked on before the merger?
 

Offline branadic

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Re: Lowest drift, lowest noise voltage reference (ADR1000AHZ)
« Reply #44 on: October 02, 2021, 02:43:39 pm »
Eric Modica (ADI) mentioned, that ADI wanted to have their own LTZ1000-like reference for products such as AD5791, that's why they started the development.

-branadic-
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Offline ScoobyDoo

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Re: Lowest drift, lowest noise voltage reference (ADR1000AHZ)
« Reply #45 on: October 02, 2021, 05:28:39 pm »
Hello all Voltnuts,

Before there was any internal noise of the LTC M&A - the ADI VP responsible for Voltage reference devices spotted the AD5791 board - he was not thrilled - and wanted to have his own premier Voltage Reference circuit on the board.

The legacy LTZ1000(A) was designed by Carl Nelson and Mark Glanville  (mask designer) hence the initials CN MG on lithography/die.

The ADR1000 was designed by Eric Modica, Paul Henneuse (retired), and Mark Reisiger and had many R&D pitstops - this design initiated 4-5 years before the M&A with LTC.

The VP of ADI would never have launched this project if he had been aware about the M&A talks with LTC.

After the acquisition of LTC the ADI team had access to Carl Nelson (LTC) and heavily leaned on his wide shoulders to bring it to a successful ending ...

Best regards
ScoobyDoo

https://readingjimwilliams.blogspot.com/2011/08/app-note-22.html
« Last Edit: October 03, 2021, 04:22:30 am by ScoobyDoo »
 
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Offline Noopy

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Re: Lowest drift, lowest noise voltage reference (ADR1000AHZ)
« Reply #46 on: October 02, 2021, 07:45:59 pm »
Quote
ADR1000 is quite similar to the LTZ1000 but the heater structure is much simpler, no more spare structures.
Ah, you missed that part of explaination on that by Eric Modica.
That´s right. Can you enlight me?

Would you please share your knowledge?


Ask ADI for chips/dies only. I bet you get them for a small fraction of the ADR1000 price.
And you may experiment - I think bonding 10 wires cannot be a big problem in Germany..

Worth a try.  :-+
Bonding such small wires is no easy task. If you look too long at the pictures you often think a little probing would be no problem but without special equipment that is no fun.


It looks like the light is more uniform than in the LTZ1000. Perhaps here we see one reason for the lower noise figure? A more uniform structure in the buried zener?
In the session, I posed the question to Eric Modia, how they achieved these 50% noise level compared to the LTZ.
His answers were
1. "Pure luck"
2. "Due to the lower reference voltage, the zener structure of the ADR1000 operates in the Zener effect mode, compared to the LTZ which operates in the more noisy Avalanche mode"

Answer 2 seems wrong. In the zener mode the tempco would move into the negative area, wouldn´t it?

Offline imo

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Re: Lowest drift, lowest noise voltage reference (ADR1000AHZ)
« Reply #47 on: October 02, 2021, 07:59:34 pm »
@Noopy:
1. in the presentation EricM explained why they went with a single duo heating ring..
2. bonding - not easy but in DE there is a lot of manufacturers/r&d_centers where they can bond a chip into a package. They usually use ceramic packages with N-pins for prototyping/measurements, afaik.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2021, 08:30:16 pm by imo »
 

Offline Noopy

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Re: Lowest drift, lowest noise voltage reference (ADR1000AHZ)
« Reply #48 on: October 02, 2021, 08:08:35 pm »
@Noopy:
1. in the presentation EricM explained why they went with single heating's ring..
2. bonding - not easy but in DE there is a lot of manufacturers/r&d_centers where they can bond a chip into a package. They usually use ceramic packages with N-pins for prototyping, afaik.

Can I download this presentation somewhere?

Online Dr. Frank

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Re: Lowest drift, lowest noise voltage reference (ADR1000AHZ)
« Reply #49 on: October 02, 2021, 08:54:54 pm »
It looks like the light is more uniform than in the LTZ1000. Perhaps here we see one reason for the lower noise figure? A more uniform structure in the buried zener?
In the session, I posed the question to Eric Modia, how they achieved these 50% noise level compared to the LTZ.
His answers were
1. "Pure luck"
2. "Due to the lower reference voltage, the zener structure of the ADR1000 operates in the Zener effect mode, compared to the LTZ which operates in the more noisy Avalanche mode"

Answer 2 seems wrong. In the zener mode the tempco would move into the negative area, wouldn´t it?


Hi Noopy,
please carefully read my question. Here I reproduced his answer concerning the noise, but not about the T.C.!
Or what's your point?

The T.C. of the zener diode is indeed depending on its absolute value, or in other words, if it's in either zener or Avalanche mode, I guess.
The trick with LTFLU, SZA263 and ADR1000 (unintentionally?) is, to inversely match its T.C. with the -2mV/K of the transistor BE diode.
Therefore you have a limited choice of zener voltages which will do the job.

Frank
 
« Last Edit: October 02, 2021, 08:58:50 pm by Dr. Frank »
 
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