Author Topic: LT1021CMH based mini-reference  (Read 34013 times)

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Offline iMo

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Re: LT1021CMH based mini-reference
« Reply #75 on: April 18, 2023, 07:22:36 am »
Why not? Put the diodes on the opposite side of the trim divider.. (low side)..
« Last Edit: April 18, 2023, 07:24:15 am by iMo »
 

Offline BD1QMP

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Re: LT1021CMH based mini-reference
« Reply #76 on: April 18, 2023, 11:12:10 am »
Why not? Put the diodes on the opposite side of the trim divider.. (low side)..

you are right. need adjust the diode position.

Temco of LT1021B is about 2ppm/degree, so I design some jumper to add in 1-5 diodes, but mine is negative, so I have to re-layout the pcb.
 

Offline GigaJoe

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Re: LT1021CMH based mini-reference
« Reply #77 on: April 19, 2023, 01:46:29 am »
i use plastic, had luck to adjust tempco to nothing , drop in the small oil bath and just a heater.  all this fit in metal thermos 0.5L wide one.
so far after 2 weeks ,  for a month  it just a fluctuation of few microvolts, and in overall it seems combination of ext. temp , imperfection of measurement etc ...
i use 2 pins only to solder dip8 to the board , 2 other over like spring\hanging wire ...

my point - i think plastic have some chance as well
(yes yes plastic and crystal fused together, atmospheric pressure, imperfection you name it ....)  but so far so good ...   
 

Offline iMo

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Re: LT1021CMH based mini-reference
« Reply #78 on: April 19, 2023, 07:39:08 pm »
What kind of oil do you use?
 

Offline GigaJoe

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Re: LT1021CMH based mini-reference
« Reply #79 on: April 19, 2023, 11:57:59 pm »
it was a pure mineral oil from a drug store ,   i think transformer oil will fit , but when i poke around some suppliers, they said there no mineral transformer oil in use , instead some  fluori...h..  something liquid.

aaand NTC resistor indicated that simply heating up , not really good idea at all,  due to internal temperature are balance between heat production and dissipation . so dissipation affected even by something lay nearby or more affected if on top ... so need some basic thermostat. 
 

Offline randymatt444

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Re: LT1021CMH based mini-reference
« Reply #80 on: April 26, 2023, 02:33:45 am »
New PCB 24hr Test

So now trying to figure out why this looks so good.

Also, I'm guessing the 34461A measurements is because of noise (?) :-//
« Last Edit: April 26, 2023, 02:37:33 am by randymatt444 »
 
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Offline Andreas

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Re: LT1021CMH based mini-reference
« Reply #81 on: April 26, 2023, 04:42:49 am »
Also, I'm guessing the 34461A measurements is because of noise (?)

Hello,

did you really use 100 NPLC integration time on the 34461A?
My 34401A typically has less than 3 uVpp in this case.

And your 34461A has obviously more T.C. than the voltage reference.

with best regards

Andreas


edit:
could be also the FAN within the 34461A:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/dmm-adc-noise-comparison-testing-project/msg652325/#msg652325

« Last Edit: April 26, 2023, 04:58:59 am by Andreas »
 

Offline randymatt444

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Re: LT1021CMH based mini-reference
« Reply #82 on: April 26, 2023, 04:58:57 am »
Also, I'm guessing the 34461A measurements is because of noise (?)

Hello,

did you really use 100 NPLC integration time on the 34461A?
My 34401A typically has less than 3 uVpp in this case.

And your 34461A has obviously more T.C. than the voltage reference.

with best regards

Andreas

Yes, double checked. I have another 34461A and a 34401A I'll hook up in parallel to check it out. This is buffered with an OP07 so that should be fine.
 

Offline GigaJoe

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Re: LT1021CMH based mini-reference
« Reply #83 on: April 26, 2023, 05:49:43 am »
How do i measure:

preparing 2 oil bath in thermos , room temperature , and around +35-40
stable 10V source ,   and DUT as 10V source. measure as difference between 2 source.
with difference method i can record faction of microvolts, on 3457

drop the DUT  in room temp . oil bath, settle time  around 10-15 min , record temperate , record diff. in voltage
drop the DUT  in hot  temp . oil bath, settle time  around 10-15 min , record temperate , record diff. in voltage

then  a simple math

i don't quite understanding of measuring how heater\air-conditioning acting for 24 hour , really ...
 

Offline iMo

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Re: LT1021CMH based mini-reference
« Reply #84 on: April 26, 2023, 06:43:00 am »
New PCB 24hr Test

So now trying to figure out why this looks so good.

Also, I'm guessing the 34461A measurements is because of noise (?) :-//

The 34461A measurement looks to me like a typical one, TC of the meter could be less than 0.5ppm/C and the TC of the 1021 could be less than 3ppm/C. Also the noise with its 10uVpp looks ok to me. Your meter is 399 powered (5-10uVpp) and the noise of your 1021 could be 10uVpp as well..

PS: in the excel you may calculate the standard deviation of your measurement, and you get "rms" noise. My guess it would be around 1uV (I got a running stddev upon last 100 samples typically between 0.6-1.2uV with 1021 epoxy refs and my 34401A).
« Last Edit: April 26, 2023, 06:55:56 am by iMo »
 
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Offline iMo

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Re: LT1021CMH based mini-reference
« Reply #85 on: April 26, 2023, 07:22:46 am »
FYI - here is a typical overnight run of two LT1021-10 epoxy (wired in parallel) with running stddev (over last 100samples)..
 
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Offline randymatt444

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Re: LT1021CMH based mini-reference
« Reply #86 on: April 26, 2023, 08:20:06 am »
PS: in the excel you may calculate the standard deviation of your measurement, and you get "rms" noise. My guess it would be around 1uV (I got a running stddev upon last 100 samples typically between 0.6-1.2uV with 1021 epoxy refs and my 34401A).

What is the sample rate you are logging? I'm using 3.6s (1,000 per hour).
 

Online Kleinstein

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Re: LT1021CMH based mini-reference
« Reply #87 on: April 26, 2023, 08:39:07 am »
The curve looks quite stable.  The step like features (some 5 µV step size) could be due to the reference inside the 34401 DMM, it is about the expected size for the LM399.
The epoxy version may still have slow drift from humidity effects.
 

Offline iMo

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Re: LT1021CMH based mini-reference
« Reply #88 on: April 26, 2023, 09:39:40 am »
PS: in the excel you may calculate the standard deviation of your measurement, and you get "rms" noise. My guess it would be around 1uV (I got a running stddev upon last 100 samples typically between 0.6-1.2uV with 1021 epoxy refs and my 34401A).

What is the sample rate you are logging? I'm using 3.6s (1,000 per hour).

I've been always logging with 100NPLC (aprox 4secs period).
 

Offline randymatt444

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Re: LT1021CMH based mini-reference
« Reply #89 on: April 26, 2023, 09:56:06 am »
I've been always logging with 100NPLC (aprox 4secs period).

So, with the Agilent DMM Utility set to 100 NPLC and sample set to "fastest" it's about 3.4sec, I set it to 3.6 so it would be 1K to 1 hr.
I'm kind of new to the logging part so I'm questioning everything.
 

Offline iMo

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Re: LT1021CMH based mini-reference
« Reply #90 on: April 26, 2023, 10:04:18 am »
The curve looks quite stable.  The step like features (some 5 µV step size) could be due to the reference inside the 34401 DMM, it is about the expected size for the LM399.
The epoxy version may still have slow drift from humidity effects.

Yep, those 5uV "steps" are due to popcorn of the LM399, the LT1021 may popcorn too, but with two LT1021 in parallel it comes from the 399, sure. There is always some TC with the 1021, humidity with epoxy, and most problematic is the hysteresis of the LT1021 in epoxy, at least with my samples. Up to 60ppm after a couple of months switched off (it takes aprox a month to get somewhere back with the voltage). I wonder how those various 1021-10 epoxy based cheapo references people produce and sell actually perform..
« Last Edit: April 26, 2023, 10:07:14 am by iMo »
 

Offline randymatt444

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Re: LT1021CMH based mini-reference
« Reply #91 on: May 11, 2023, 07:00:46 am »
....My examples of LM1021CMH are relatively noisy (noisier than a good LM399), with a rather large tempco (~10-15ppm/C) though the long term stability and hysteresis after one month appear to be very good. I have chosen this chip for a travelling reference mostly because it provides 10V with internal (i.e. placed in a hermetic case) resistors, so all critical bits (the reference, the step-up network and the resistor reference/divider) are in a hermetic packaging. OK, it is relatively noisy with 1ppm p-p of a pop-corn "jumps" but the long term stability appears to better than 1ppm/month (how much better only the time will tell) and it proved so far to be quite insensitive to travelling and temperature cycling from 5C to 40C.

I have ten LM129AH in a hermetic packaging, perhaps I'll build the next reference with that one (or 2-3 in parallel, or maybe 3 in series for ~20V main reference voltage) and see how that will work. Another option is my JVR metal can JFET based reference, which appear to be very stable (less than 5ppm drift over more than a year, essentially less than I could measure reliably) and has a low tempco around room temperature. It does rely upon some good resistors though and doesn't have a particularly low noise (~0.5ppm p-p).

Cheers

Alex

How are you guys measuring and logging the temperature? I mean, manufacturer, model, type (RTD, Thermistor, Other) of the thermometer and such, as I'm looking.

ThX

-Randy
« Last Edit: May 11, 2023, 07:04:52 am by randymatt444 »
 

Offline ejd.pol

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Re: LT1021CMH based mini-reference
« Reply #92 on: May 13, 2023, 01:29:25 pm »
Hello,

Thank you very much for sharing this design! The trick with the diodes to make temperature compensation is very neat.
I am considering building (at least) one of these references too, as the accuracy and stability seem quite high.
Before going into the build, I have a couple of questions, hope that you can answer them:

-What is the dependency of the temperature compensation circuit on the particular device?
 For example, could it be that for another device the number of diodes should be changed? How about resistor values?
 If changes may be needed, how would one go about figuring out which changes to make?

-Does it make sense, in addition to the temperature compensation, to protect the LT1021 from temperature swings
 by a) insulation or b) encasing it in a temperature controlled enclosure?

-Could it be useful to protect the device from physical stress on the leads?
 There are designs where the leads are not soldered directly to the PCB, but some thin and flexible wiring is inserted in between.
 The thin wires not only absorb the physical stress, they also constrain heat loss.

Regardless of insulation or stress-relief wiring, the temperature compensation circuit should
always be kept in good thermal contact with the LT1021 itself, of course!

Those are some first thoughts, I would be grateful to hear your insights!

Kind regards,

Evert-Jan

 

Offline Andreas

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Re: LT1021CMH based mini-reference
« Reply #93 on: May 13, 2023, 02:15:44 pm »
-Could it be useful to protect the device from physical stress on the leads?
Hello,

The metal can package is usually less sensitive to lead stress than SMD or DIP packages.
(Keep the leads long).

I usually make a test by bending the PCB. If the bending creates more than +/- 1 ppm shift I use some kind of stress relief.

with best regards

Andreas
 
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Offline randymatt444

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Re: LT1021CMH based mini-reference
« Reply #94 on: May 13, 2023, 09:42:41 pm »
-What is the dependency of the temperature compensation circuit on the particular device?
 For example, could it be that for another device the number of diodes should be changed? How about resistor values?
 If changes may be needed, how would one go about figuring out which changes to make?

This is a very good question.

The first step is to measure the tempco with no compensation diodes to see it's "natural" tempco. Then, I'm just guessing where to go next, (i.g., try 1, 2, 3 ...6 diodes).

There are folks here much more intune than myself that can probably answer this and calculate the numbers of diodes and the values of the associated resistors.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2023, 09:59:50 pm by randymatt444 »
 

Offline Andreas

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Re: LT1021CMH based mini-reference
« Reply #95 on: May 14, 2023, 04:59:56 am »
This is a very good question.

The first step is to measure the tempco with no compensation diodes to see it's "natural" tempco. Then, I'm just guessing where to go next, (i.g., try 1, 2, 3 ...6 diodes).

There are folks here much more intune than myself that can probably answer this and calculate the numbers of diodes and the values of the associated resistors.
Hello,

the influence of the trim pin on output voltage is usually given as "trim range" in the data sheet.
the T.C. of one diode is about -2mV/K.
All other is simple math. (can also be done by EXCEL or some LTSPICE model)

see for a different reference (with a thermistor and pot to trim T.C. according to Lars Walenius) also here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/ad587lw-10v-precision-travel-standard/msg1547132/#msg1547132

And of course you need many temperature sweeps to verify results.

How are you guys measuring and logging the temperature? I mean, manufacturer, model, type (RTD, Thermistor, Other) of the thermometer and such, as I'm looking.

Depends on the temperature range.
in 10-40 deg C range I usually use either a 33K NTC (cheap) or some kind of digital (calibrated) temperature sensor. (TMP112, SHT25, MS5611)
for larger temperature ranges a PT1000 measured ratiometric with one of my 24 Bit ADCs.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/lowest-drift-lowest-noise-voltage-reference/msg3758498/#msg3758498

with best regards

Andreas
 
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Offline iMo

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Re: LT1021CMH based mini-reference
« Reply #96 on: May 14, 2023, 07:28:51 am »
I spent months playing with 1021 (epoxy) and MAC-01 (metal) TC compensation - ntc thermistors as well as diodes. I would not do the exercise again. It is a difficult process (as Andreas has shown above) with many degrees of freedom (trim voltage ratio/trim range/trim input impedance/TC of trim input/TC of diodes/TC of thermistors/TC of trimmers/TC of resistors/long term stability of all above).. Better to jump straight into the world of 399/1399/1000/1001 references.
 
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Offline iMo

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Re: LT1021CMH based mini-reference
« Reply #97 on: May 14, 2023, 09:18:05 am »
In case you want to play with TC compensation (w/ diodes) of the 1021 in LTSpice - here is an example..
Mind the level of the compensation depends on the current flowing via the diodes too, as well as of the TC of the resistors..
The trim voltage should be around 5V.
As there is none TC in the model of the 1021 you may add the TC via the B source - see below.
Also - the TC21 is in ppm/C (ie. 3*1e-6/C in the example), the result in the graph - the "Slope" is in uV/C (ie. 2uV/C in the example, what is 0.2ppm/C).
The actual TC21 is an "U" or "S" shaped curve, thus to get better results you have to find the higher order TC21 equation (ie. like Andreas did for TC21_2*Temp_diff^2 and TC21_3*Temp_diff^3) and do use it in the B1 voltage source (see below an example).
« Last Edit: May 14, 2023, 11:15:26 am by iMo »
 

Offline ejd.pol

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Re: LT1021CMH based mini-reference
« Reply #98 on: May 14, 2023, 01:05:56 pm »
Hello,

Many thanks for all replies! I would have guessed that it is only to be expected that the TC of the LT1021 is device dependent,
because if there were a systematic TC, LT would have undoubtedly compensated that to make their product less temperature dependent.
So, perhaps (at best) there might be a correlation between devices of the same batch,
but in general, the TC measured over devices should be noise with average zero. Right?  :)

That means indeed that the TC needs to be determined per device.
So, before (slowly) becoming a volt-nut, I first need to become a temp-nut! (Resistance is futile....  :-DMM)
[Side note: I have designed and constructed a 0.1 ppb GPSDO, so I am also on my way to becoming a time-nut!  :D ]

What follows shows my current thinking (which is undoubtedly flawed), and I would be very grateful to receive your comments.

It so happens that I have a small metal box that used to be the enclosure of an OCXO, with two ground pins (connected to the box itself), and four signal pins.
I also have an LM35A, would that have sufficient accuracy to serve as the sensor in the measurements needed to assess the TC of the LT1021?

The initial idea is to put some isolation in the box, and in the isolated space put the LT1021, the temp sensor, and a heating element of some kind.
Then hook the sensor up to an ADS1115 (also available in my spare parts box), connect the ADC and the heating element to a controller (Arduino Uno or such),
and that should result in an oven that I can preset to an arbitrary (within reason) temperature. I need to take care to make a sufficiently stable supply for the sensor and ADC, of course.
(How about using an LT3042 for that purpose?) The build should be such that I can measure all four of my LT1021 (indeed in a metal can, not the plastic version).

Then there is the question of how to measure small changes in voltage as produced by the LT1021.
First of all, a stable reference is needed. This is almost a chicken and egg issue, but the most important thing is that the new reference is stable.
I do have an LM399H. With an opamp (LT1012 is ok here?) I could make a stable (but not very accurate) 10 Volt reference.
In fact, I could trim the LM399-based reference to the untrimmed LT1021.
Then I would need a difference amplifier to track the differences between the LM399 and the LT1021 references (another LT1012?). Gain set to 100 or so?

Come to think of it, I have two LM399...  Hmm... If I would build two such references, I could also measure how the difference develops between these two.
Just to get a better view on the drift of the LM399 references themselves. Would that make sense?

Anyway, after measuring all four LT1021, I could make temperature-compensation circuits for all four, and measure them again.
Then the best could be selected to be built into the oven permanently. So all trimming, compensation, etc. should be done at the target temperature. Say, 40 C?
Then, finally, the reference-in-the-oven can be trimmed. For trimming of my egg, I will need access to some professional reference chicken.
Or are there any other fun things to do with 6(!) references? (Bob Pease had a setup with 4x4 LM399, measuring drift within each group of 4, and across the four groups.)

The main purpose of all this is to learn, and also to see how far stability and accuracy can be pushed with moderate means.
Any comments and ideas are highly appreciated!

 

Offline Andreas

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Re: LT1021CMH based mini-reference
« Reply #99 on: May 14, 2023, 03:04:32 pm »
So, perhaps (at best) there might be a correlation between devices of the same batch,
but in general, the TC measured over devices should be noise with average zero. Right?  :)
Hello,

no.
Modern high end references like LT1021 or LT1236 are already individually factory trimmed for the temperature range intended.

Trimming is done at 3 temperatures only (e.g. 0 deg C, 25 deg C and 70 deg C for a comercial device).
a T.C. of 5 ppm / K means that the 3 temperature points lie in a window of +/- 350 ppm.
There is no guarantee being within the window for temperatures between the points and the curvature in between is also not defined.

So external trimming well below 1 ppm/K is always only possible for a limited (+/- 5 .. 10 deg C) temperature range.
For larger temperature ranges (10-40 deg C) I have already thought of a microprocessor with D/A converter or PWM trimming with a 3rd order temperature compensation.

Measuring T.C. is relative simple when measuring voltage differences.
One reference at stable temperature and the other in a temperature controlled environment.
A LM35 may be sufficient when the temperature swing is large enough. (well above 10 deg C).

Having only 2 references for regarding differences over time is not enough.
You never know if there is a slow drift in between how the absolute drift over time is.
So you need at least 3 references to sort out the bad one.

with best regards

Andreas



 


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