Author Topic: New or used GPS Frequency Standard?  (Read 6363 times)

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Offline FriedMuleTopic starter

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New or used GPS Frequency Standard?
« on: April 27, 2021, 08:53:51 am »
When looking for a GPS 10MHz Frequency Standard do I either get some new and for me unknown brands or the green eBay thingies. If I try to find Agilent or main brands like that, do I find old used models.

If I want to play with more accurate frequencies, is an old used GPS  Frequency Standard from a main brand name best or a Ling Hong Chu from eBay?
Do any of you have any recommendations?

A bit of info, no I am not trying to surpass NASA but I would like to know my Frequency Standard is significantly better than the integrated you get on scopes, frequency counters and so on.
Even if I appear online is it not necessary so, my computer is on 24/7 even if I am not on.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: New or used GPS Frequency Standard?
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2021, 10:00:23 am »
Currently there are many for sale on Ebay which are based on an A-brand GPSDO module. The advantage is that these have well aged OCXO. I have bought one (to have an extra GPSDO -go figure-) and it seems to work very well when compared to a new GPSDO design. In the end a GPSDO isn't black magic; the most important thing is to have good GPS reception. The modules from Ebay which are built from decommissioned telco equipment likely to have more modern (=more sensitive) receivers compared to receivers from the 80's.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2021, 10:02:21 am by nctnico »
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Offline bingo600

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Re: New or used GPS Frequency Standard?
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2021, 10:31:22 am »
Now that the source of Oscilloquartz (Star4) , seems to have "dried up"

I'd go for a Used Samsung like this one , good critic on time-nuts & here
https://www.ebay.com/itm/254609356856

https://www.ebay.com/itm/293878344715


Raw board (NOTE 6v) , you need a 50pol to 2.5mm print
https://www.ebay.com/itm/303377095479

via Bidding , usually ends on 30..35$
https://www.ebay.com/itm/265135016057

I'd prob. get the first (finished model)

Or a Trimble Thunderbolt (Time nut favorite)
Needs 5v, +12v og -12v
https://www.ebay.com/itm/332390729098

I use this 26dB Timing antenna  (N conn)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/402232021010

You could try a "Puck" in the window first.

/Bingo
« Last Edit: April 27, 2021, 10:39:47 am by bingo600 »
 

Offline FriedMuleTopic starter

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Re: New or used GPS Frequency Standard?
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2021, 12:48:08 pm »
Thank you both, I am planning to "trow" an GPS antenna on the roof to get the best reception.
I have the possibility to get a HP Z3805A 10811 DOCXO 16 channel GPS for nearly nothing and it has run in an unknown time. Is it a good unit to use and rely upon?
Even if I appear online is it not necessary so, my computer is on 24/7 even if I am not on.
 

Offline bingo600

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Re: New or used GPS Frequency Standard?
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2021, 05:46:10 pm »
Thank you both, I am planning to "trow" an GPS antenna on the roof to get the best reception.
I have the possibility to get a HP Z3805A 10811 DOCXO 16 channel GPS for nearly nothing and it has run in an unknown time. Is it a good unit to use and rely upon?

A Z3805A is a nice gpsdo - If it's nearly nothing grab it.
You will end up with several others in a short time anyways  :-DD :-DD
This stuff is addictive

I have a Z3801A (Older sibling to the 3805)- And suspect my GPS receiver might be dead ...
That's a bad thing , as working replacements are nearly impossible to get. Well there is a company that makes a "Clone" that speaks "Oncore VP" , but i heard it was quite expensive.

You might want to grab a Samsung anyway , before they are all gone - $100 is not bad - The extra $50 in VAT + Customs fee is ... But $150 isn't that bad too.
The "Pro/brand" ones usually only lasts for a period , then all the scrap stations they were pulled from are gone.

Remember to fire up LadyHeather to dicipline them , she can manage both.
You'd prob need a few USB->RS232 adapters (db9) , or some real ComPorts


« Last Edit: April 27, 2021, 05:51:35 pm by bingo600 »
 

Offline FriedMuleTopic starter

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Re: New or used GPS Frequency Standard?
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2021, 08:37:43 pm »
I did look at the Samsung but would it not be better to shoot the sky with a GPS Rubidium Frequency Standard instead?
I mean if it gets addictive? :-)
Even if I appear online is it not necessary so, my computer is on 24/7 even if I am not on.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: New or used GPS Frequency Standard?
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2021, 04:38:46 am »
Thank you both, I am planning to "trow" an GPS antenna on the roof to get the best reception.
I have the possibility to get a HP Z3805A 10811 DOCXO 16 channel GPS for nearly nothing and it has run in an unknown time. Is it a good unit to use and rely upon?
Don't get too hung up on perceived 'quality' of old HP gear. Anything over US $50 is probably too much to spend on it.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline FriedMuleTopic starter

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Re: New or used GPS Frequency Standard?
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2021, 07:31:11 am »
On eBay is there several units everything from old and abused to new and prices from cheap to "are you insane" :-)
I have looked at this https://www.ebay.de/itm/124698714192 unit but again can you trust it to be accurate?
Even if I appear online is it not necessary so, my computer is on 24/7 even if I am not on.
 

Offline MIS42N

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Re: New or used GPS Frequency Standard?
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2021, 09:10:56 am »
If all you are looking for is something a bit more accurate than what you've got, just about any GPSDO should do. I have been experimenting, build my own. Today I was finally able to use some decent equipment to see what actually came out of the latest circuit. It was a usable 10MHz +- 0.01Hz square wave, 3V p-p into 50 ohm, from less than $20 (Australian) parts (excluding power supply and GPS + antenna - the power supply is a junk box 8V DC wallwart, the GPS module and antenna can be quite expensive but in this case about another $20). The focus was on lowest cost rather than best performance. I haven't tested commercial units but one could guess they should do as well or better. Take note of the recommendation by others that a decent GPS signal is required. I sent the NMEA output of the GPS to VisualGPS for analysis (quite an old program, but it gives you important information like HDOP, view of the sky, signal strength).

If you need better than 1ppb accuracy (i.e. 10MHz +- 0.01Hz) then you may need to do some searching. But for most people the 1ppb is more than good enough.
 

Offline bingo600

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Re: New or used GPS Frequency Standard?
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2021, 10:06:32 am »

Quote
I have looked at this https://www.ebay.de/itm/124698714192 unit but again can you trust it to be accurate?

That's a X72 Rubi inside that box.
Pro: It's small
Con: In general small is NOT good for Rubi's

Somewhat pricey for an X72 w. a tripple distamp , in a box

/Bingo
« Last Edit: April 28, 2021, 10:09:01 am by bingo600 »
 

Offline bingo600

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Re: New or used GPS Frequency Standard?
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2021, 10:08:13 am »
Don't get too hung up on perceived 'quality' of old HP gear. Anything over US $50 is probably too much to spend on it.

The OCXO is prob worth 2 x that amount alone, if it behaves.
I'd give $100 in a heartbeat

But would prob go for a Samsung , that havent had 15+ years of on time.
And the newer Lea6T is prob. much more (1PPS) accurate than the VP/UT that's in the Z3805

Never knew that there was an "original" Z3805 w. DOCXO 10811 and a 16-chan receiver.

Does not "compute" ....
https://time-nuts.febo.narkive.com/BeaMLAgl/what-s-best-an-hp-58503a-z3805a-or-z3801a-upgraded-to-58503a


/Bingo
« Last Edit: April 28, 2021, 10:36:40 am by bingo600 »
 

Offline FriedMuleTopic starter

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Re: New or used GPS Frequency Standard?
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2021, 07:10:28 pm »
What I am not sure of is the GPS part, I understand that the frequency standard "asks" the satellites about the precise "tick" and then correct for any errors and continue to count on its own until next contact?
How often does it happen?
How much can the frequency standard go out of accuracy?
How accurate is the satellites?

What I am aiming at / asking for is, if a trashcan-unit with a stability of pudding was contacting the satellites every second would it maybe be more accurate than a top of the pop unit that only asks once a year. :-)
Even if I appear online is it not necessary so, my computer is on 24/7 even if I am not on.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: New or used GPS Frequency Standard?
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2021, 11:02:34 pm »
Don't get too hung up on perceived 'quality' of old HP gear. Anything over US $50 is probably too much to spend on it.

The OCXO is prob worth 2 x that amount alone, if it behaves.
I'd give $100 in a heartbeat
But be honest: is that because the OCXO has such great specs or just because it has HP printed on it? Ebay is filled with more modern OCXOs which have decent specs and probably cost less. $100 buys you a very nice new OCXO as well.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2021, 11:06:28 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline MIS42N

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Re: New or used GPS Frequency Standard?
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2021, 11:03:58 pm »
What I am not sure of is the GPS part, I understand that the frequency standard "asks" the satellites about the precise "tick" and then correct for any errors and continue to count on its own until next contact?
How often does it happen?
How much can the frequency standard go out of accuracy?
How accurate is the satellites?

What I am aiming at / asking for is, if a trashcan-unit with a stability of pudding was contacting the satellites every second would it maybe be more accurate than a top of the pop unit that only asks once a year. :-)
The details of how it works is complex, I can't claim to understand it all. The satellites broadcast continuously, the receiver uses techniques to resolve each satellite signal from the total received signal. I believe the receiver could calculate its position every millisecond if necessary. The sort used for GPSDO don't need to, as the position is usually fixed. Instead they produce something (a frequency or timing signal) based on the received data. A common timing signal is one pulse per second, the accuracy varies with the receiver. The cheapest modules with good reception can vary hundreds of nanoseconds. The best are around 10 nanoseconds. Almost all receive only the L1 band, but dual band receivers are appearing. This allows the receiver to calculate and compensate for ionospheric conditions that the L1 only can't. The error then is very low.

Some receivers can generate a reference signal (say 10MHz) directly, maybe 'good enough' for what you want. A GPSDO uses the timing signal (a minimum of once a second, but some like old Jupiter receivers produced a 40kHz signal) to compare a local oscillator to the signal and correct the oscillator if necessary. This answers one of your questions, the satellite data is checked at least once a second.

The usual disciplining technique is a phase locked loop, in which case the oscillator long term will produce 10,000,000 cycles every second, within the accuracy of the satellites themselves. They are corrected by signals from the ground every day. Reputedly the long term error is less than 1 part in 10E14.

Most people are interested in the shorter term actual frequency of the local oscillator. This depends on the quality of the oscillator and the disciplining algorithm. Even a trash can pudding when disciplined is more accurate than just about any standalone piece of equipment (excluding rubidium or cesium beams). Your application determines your desired accuracy. My current aim is to act as a refernce for WSPR amateur radio signals, these need to be quite accurate and stable. 1 part in 10E9 is adequate.
 

Offline Conrad Hoffman

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Re: New or used GPS Frequency Standard?
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2021, 11:56:56 pm »
I've been really happy with the Leo Bodnar Mini. Seems to pick up signal anywhere, even in my basement lab, and can be set to almost any needed frequency. Only downside is I don't know if it can be used with Lady Heather.
http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=107&zenid=4a68ee4ed7bd23f9b353e3dbdd6cb616
 

Offline FriedMuleTopic starter

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Re: New or used GPS Frequency Standard?
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2021, 11:58:50 pm »
Great answers from your all!
Sorry for this question but now does my ignorance shine in all its glory! :-)

Let's say you have two units, one with an accuracy of 10E8 and one 10E14, if they both check every seconds, how much can they manage to differ in one second? Are we not talking about both being equal accurate?

What I need and what I would like differs a great deal, I can easily get by with a 10E6 but to fun and giggles would 10E14 or even higher and pleasure my internal NERD! :-)
I am of cause not interested in paying for a new top of the range atomic clock but it looks like you can get a lot of fun for <$1000-$1500
Even if I appear online is it not necessary so, my computer is on 24/7 even if I am not on.
 

Offline MIS42N

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Re: New or used GPS Frequency Standard?
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2021, 01:45:05 am »
What I need and what I would like differs a great deal, I can easily get by with a 10E6 but to fun and giggles would 10E14 or even higher and pleasure my internal NERD! :-)
I am of cause not interested in paying for a new top of the range atomic clock but it looks like you can get a lot of fun for <$1000-$1500
My limited experience is 1 part in 10E9 (i.e. 10MHz +- 0.01 Hz) is easily achieved. There are quite a few factors that affect the outcome - the oscillator (usually stable to 10E11 or 12), the control voltage applied to the OCXO, usually from a DAC. Because the DAC has discrete steps (e.g. 16 bit DAC from a 5V source has steps of about 75µV) the control is not totally accurate (consider the oscillator has a sensitivity of 0.1V per Hz - a change of 1V would change the frequency by 10Hz - then 75µV changes the frequency by 750µHz. That could produce an error of up to 3.7 * 10E-11 that can't be corrected). Then there's the power supply to the DAC. A typical 7805 regulator can have a 1mV/°C change due to temperature changes. If the control voltage is 2V for example, then this affects the control voltage by 2/5 or 0.2mV. Then there's how the intrinsic variability of the resolved GPS time due to ionospheric conditions, satellite errors, transitions from one satellite to another, etc etc. The usual technique is to average over a period (e.g. have a PLL with a long time constant) because the statistical average is more accurate than the individual readings.

1 part in 10E10 is achieved with care. Usually enough to have a stable environment (temperature doesn't change quickly).

1 part in 10E11 requires attention and compensation for temperature effects, and a decent DAC.

1 part in 10E12 is the realm of rubidium standards. I think it is difficult to go beyond this point without spending big bucks. If the reference is 10MHz this is an error of 1 cycle per day. There are not too many oscillators that are that stable, so the accuracy is determined by the disciplining. And the received signal is not guaranteed to be that stable either due to daily changes in the atmosphere.

So good luck getting to 10E14. Hope you have a healthy bank balance.

 
 
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Offline tkamiya

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Re: New or used GPS Frequency Standard?
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2021, 05:45:31 am »
My suggestion is Thunderbolt, red label, and in a thick aluminum case.

Thunderbolt because it's very popular, common, and there are wealth of knowledge, as well as software support available.
Red label because blue one is newer and costs more.  Some specs are better with older ones. (see below)
Thick case because it only requires single voltage for power.  It contains DC/DC converter.  Thin one will require 3 voltages.

There are at least two different OCXO inside.  One labeled PIEZOs are to be avoided.
http://www.ke5fx.com/tbolt.htm

What you see on eBay as new often (almost always) contain surplus GPSDO board, so they aren't really new.  So unless you want to spend $1000 ish, consider buying used.  Also, eBay types can have any GPSDO board inside, and you can't always go by appearance.  There are no manuals or official documentation.  So you are left on your own.   

That's my opinion anyway....
 

Offline tkamiya

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Re: New or used GPS Frequency Standard?
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2021, 06:01:08 am »
By the way....

Please keep in mind, 10^-13 level accuracy is only possible when you average, say, for 24 hours.  From second to second, you would have several orders of magnitude worse.  This is pretty much true on any working unit.  GPSDO works in a way where OCXO will beat and checks against GPS signal through complex algorithm.  So good thing is, error will not accumulate.  But if you "yank" the oscillator often, you will get jitter (short term drift).  If you "yank" less often, you will start to see drift more and bigger jump but in short term, jitter will be less.  Then there is a temperature change.  You'd think OCXO will not be affected by ambient temp but it does...  That will further limit your ability to be accurate and stay accurate in short term.  Short term stability of GPSDO is worse than plain OCXO because of this.  I've actually tested this in my lab...
 

Offline FriedMuleTopic starter

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Re: New or used GPS Frequency Standard?
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2021, 09:44:55 am »
As you do all write, is 10E14 a bit over what any normal setup can handle.
And yes 10E14 was the Porsche end of the spectrum. You know if you shall 3 miles down the road would a bicycle be enough but it's a lot more fun to cruse in a Porsche :-)

I do not need 10E14 at all and if I want the highest precision do I let my frequency counter make an average over several hours.
I have an antenna on my roof and is planning on mounting a GPS antenna in the top, it will do that it has nearly 360 deg view all the way around.
The most of the year am I able to keep the temperature at 72.5 deg F or 22.5 deg C 24/7 with only 0.5 deg variation.

My only "problem" is to find the most accurate unit while still keeping my sanity (what's left) :-)
You do all suggest great units or solutions but I do not have enough knowledge to decide among them.
Naturraly have I read what I could find about the units but I end up in not understanding the advantages vs disadvantages by choosing one over the other.
Even if I appear online is it not necessary so, my computer is on 24/7 even if I am not on.
 

Offline MIS42N

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Re: New or used GPS Frequency Standard?
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2021, 12:22:52 pm »
As you do all write, is 10E14 a bit over what any normal setup can handle.
And yes 10E14 was the Porsche end of the spectrum. You know if you shall 3 miles down the road would a bicycle be enough but it's a lot more fun to cruse in a Porsche :-)

I do not need 10E14 at all and if I want the highest precision do I let my frequency counter make an average over several hours.
I have an antenna on my roof and is planning on mounting a GPS antenna in the top, it will do that it has nearly 360 deg view all the way around.
The most of the year am I able to keep the temperature at 72.5 deg F or 22.5 deg C 24/7 with only 0.5 deg variation.

My only "problem" is to find the most accurate unit while still keeping my sanity (what's left) :-)
You do all suggest great units or solutions but I do not have enough knowledge to decide among them.
Naturraly have I read what I could find about the units but I end up in not understanding the advantages vs disadvantages by choosing one over the other.
I think your best option is to spend a small amount to get a cheap unit and play with it. It may be all you need. I may be wrong, but I get the impression that most people who spend a lot of money on GPSDOs do it for interest and as a hobby. They don't have a use for it, just pursue accuracy as a 'game'. If you want to play 'the game' you will learn from the cheap unit what to look for in a better unit.

If you have around $60,000US, then buy a 5071A Cesium Beam standard, it's about as good as it gets. You keep your sanity but lose your retirement savings.

For most units between the cheapest and the most expensive the market determines you get what you pay for. It is like the decision on buying a car - new model or better quality used model. Was your first car a new Porsche or cheap second hand. Most of us start at the bottom then buy better and more appropriate models when we understand our needs. Perhaps that's the way to look at a GPSDO. 
 

Offline tkamiya

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Re: New or used GPS Frequency Standard?
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2021, 05:08:14 pm »
I'm curious.  Where did you read GPS can achieve 10^-14?  Which model?  Is this a long term figure or a short term?

If you want THAT kind or anything close to, antenna is an important factor, too.  GPS signal is below noise.  Professional timing antenna is much better in dealing with this.  Something like THIS: https://www.ebay.com/itm/184503369787?hash=item2af542003b:g:VhwAAOSwKP1flMQV will be great to have.  New ones pop up around the same price if you watch for one.  Feed it with a good coax.

If you want just ANY GPSDO, I have stacks of them but they don't use TCXO and because of architecture, jitter is pretty bad.  Like someone said, I'm going to suggest with just start with something and get your knowledge up.  Then you'll be better positioned to make a selection that will suit your needs and also set a realistic goal.
 

Offline bingo600

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Re: New or used GPS Frequency Standard?
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2021, 05:32:07 pm »
Professional timing antenna is much better in dealing with this.  Something like THIS: https://www.ebay.com/itm/184503369787?hash=item2af542003b:g:VhwAAOSwKP1flMQV will be great to have.  New ones pop up around the same price if you watch for one.  Feed it with a good coax.

 I have excactly the same "Ice Cones"  in 40 & 26 dB.

I'd go for a 26dB , not a 40dB 

In fact i had to take down my 40dB , and get a 26dB instead.
As the 40dB was giving out too much signal for my modern receivers ...
The tbolt didn't seem to mind though , but the LEA's etc was not appy.

It was easier for me to get a new antenna than to attenuate + dc-block & power inject.


@OP
You seem to have changed your req's , to the best , $1000/1500 etc ....
My advice is to get the first now , the rest will follow by them self  ;D

Now go get the Samsung ....
The "Chinese" Z3805's arent worth $400+


/Bingo
« Last Edit: April 29, 2021, 05:36:25 pm by bingo600 »
 

Offline tkamiya

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Re: New or used GPS Frequency Standard?
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2021, 06:37:13 pm »
I didn't realize I pointed to 40dBi kind.  Yes, I do recommend 26dBi type.  That's what I use. 

I have one in attic and I have one outside.  I can see attenuation but they both work well.  I use Andrew Helix for one feed line and LMR400 for another.  I know it's an overkill but I had them.  Then the signal goes to 4 channel and 8 channel HP signal divider. 

Fun stuff to play with....  I just wish I had better reference to quantify and characterize each of them.  The best I have right now is various Rubidium and old Cesium.  I got a price for Microsemi 5071A.  It is more like US$90K now + maintenance agreement + extended warranty....  It's quite a bit beyond my means.
 

Offline FriedMuleTopic starter

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Re: New or used GPS Frequency Standard?
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2021, 09:06:07 pm »
Yes I know what you mean and you are right, what I am trying to do is to get a great unit that I know will be a one time buy. To use your analogy about the car: if you know you have to use that car every day and maybe can't afford or bother to change the car to another unit every 4th year, Then may you chose to invest a bit more in the car to know its reliable the next 10 years.
Also, I hope to connect my lab to this one unit and know it's better that what you get in most standard scopes and so on.

Right now do I have the possibility to get a Z3805 w. DOCXO 10811 and a 16-chan receiver very cheap but why buy it if its less accurate than the other units I own.
Even if I appear online is it not necessary so, my computer is on 24/7 even if I am not on.
 


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