Precision Resistors - General Thread

[ManateeMafia]

I came across this document from IET in regards to the oil filled SR-1030 series. Chapter 6 talks about their recommended oil and how to test if it is contaminated enough to warrant doing an oil change.

https://www.ietlabs.com/pdf/Manuals/SR1030_im.pdf

[ITTSB.Europe]

Hello Everyone,

Let's talk about precision resistors! This is an open invitation for members to contribute to a list of resistor sources and provide a discussion about their own experiences with resistors. 

..................  My Advantest R6581T is being sent to the TransCat calibration centre in Texas, so it might be a while before I can contribute to that venture...

So far, I have collected a list of my own (MegaOhms to TeraOhms range) and maybe we can combine our knowledge to benefit the community.

All those clues makes it clear to me, that this conversation will not deliver anything useful regarding modern products and solutions.

Few years ago VISHAY accepted to collaborate with me about the promotion (due my Blog) of their latest Hermetically sealed Vishay Foil Resistors the ones dedicated for calibration.   
Because of that received YES from VISHAY, I did challenged HIOKI Japan, about me getting a sample of their finest resistor meter, which out to be aware that VISHAY was all ready a HIOKI customer, and that the specific instrument (of my choice as sample), it was in use all ready from Vishay at Israel, in their production lines as THE inspecting device of new resistors production.
According the measurements of the HIOKI (self calibrated meter),  the new products  are labeled and shipped to the customer.

The measurement of the HIOKI resistance meter, does not change, no matter of the room temperature that could be 12C ~ 35C, when the DUT is one of those Hermetically sealed Vishay Foil Resistors.
For three years I was trying to document changes of temperature coefficient of my resistance samples, and this was not possible because resistance does not change at within planet temperature range.
 
An benchtop DMM will never be equal to dedicated and modern resistance meter.
In conclusion, two brands hold in their hands the present and future of our precision resistors.   
Best third or fourth or fifth measurement device, this is unimportant when the target this is precision resistors production. 
 

[leighcorrigall]

An benchtop DMM will never be equal to dedicated and modern resistance meter.

Fair enough. Vishay is out of my measuring capabilities. 

EDIT: Not everyone uses Vishay resistors for every application. The point here is to form a discussion about resistor products manufactured by a variety of companies. Each resistor company, model, make, is going to have its differences. Maybe it will be beneficial if there is a general thread for people to read about them and make decisions on what resistors to buy for their design.

To clarify, the DMM is being calibrated so that I can check my other equipment is within specifications before I conduct measurements. My plan is to determine whether the purchased resistors (a sample set) are within the specifications outlined by the manufacturers. This should be possible with enough contributions from other members to form a statistical outcome. Provided that enough people contribute, we might be able to help each other determine skew points too.

Most of the resistors that I have are greater than 1 MΩ. Thus, VCR and TCR should be measurable in this range for me considering I have a high-voltage source, a decent DMM, and a precision temperature control environment.

I will leave the low resistance measurements to people with the capabilities.

You sound like you might have decent equipment. Would you like to contribute? 

[alm]

I did challenged HIOKI Japan, about me getting a sample of their finest resistor meter, which out to be aware that VISHAY was all ready a HIOKI customer, and that the specific instrument (of my choice as sample), it was in use all ready from Vishay at Israel, in their production lines as THE inspecting device of new resistors production.
According the measurements of the HIOKI (self calibrated meter),  the new products  are labeled and shipped to the customer.

What model is this meter? Do you have a link? Datasheet?

The measurement of the HIOKI resistance meter, does not change, no matter of the room temperature that could be 12C ~ 35C, when the DUT is one of those Hermetically sealed Vishay Foil Resistors.
For three years I was trying to document changes of temperature coefficient of my resistance samples, and this was not possible because resistance does not change at within planet temperature range.

What is the long term accuracy? Transfer accuracy? Temperature coefficient? Is this awesome stability because of the bridge, or because of the reference resistor?

An benchtop DMM will never be equal to dedicated and modern resistance meter.
In conclusion, two brands hold in their hands the present and future of our precision resistors.   
Best third or fourth or fifth measurement device, this is unimportant when the target this is precision resistors production. 

So how does this mythical instrument that apparently has no equal in the world work? A direct current comparator bridge like those made by Measurement International for lowish resistance values? A Wheatstone bridge as might be used be used for high resistance values? Or just a more fancy constant current source + voltmeter (or constant voltage + ammeter) setup?

[Echo88]

https://www.ittsb.eu/  "Reviews of ONLY THE BEST !!   Tools for truly experienced and productive human brains."
Im sure its this one: https://www.ittsb.eu/Ultra-High-Precision-resistors-Box.html#RM3542A
RM3542A-datasheet https://www.hioki.com/download/33016

"In conclusion, two brands hold in their hands the present and future of our precision resistors."

    

[leighcorrigall]

I did challenged HIOKI Japan, about me getting a sample of their finest resistor meter, which out to be aware that VISHAY was all ready a HIOKI customer, and that the specific instrument (of my choice as sample), it was in use all ready from Vishay at Israel, in their production lines as THE inspecting device of new resistors production.
According the measurements of the HIOKI (self calibrated meter),  the new products  are labeled and shipped to the customer.

What model is this meter? Do you have a link? Datasheet?

The measurement of the HIOKI resistance meter, does not change, no matter of the room temperature that could be 12C ~ 35C, when the DUT is one of those Hermetically sealed Vishay Foil Resistors.
For three years I was trying to document changes of temperature coefficient of my resistance samples, and this was not possible because resistance does not change at within planet temperature range.

What is the long term accuracy? Transfer accuracy? Temperature coefficient? Is this awesome stability because of the bridge, or because of the reference resistor?

ITTSB.Europe may be referring to the following Hioki product line (SM7110, SM7120, SM7420):

Super MegaOhm Meters: https://hiokiusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/SM7110E9-17B.pdf

EDIT: Echo88 seems correct. They posted just before I saw their links.

Quite impressive, but I still do not understand ITTSB.Europe's argument that 'this conversation will not deliver anything useful'.

At least now we are all aware of an unobtainable device that can measure better than anything else. 

[leighcorrigall]

https://www.ittsb.eu/  "Reviews of ONLY THE BEST !!   Tools for truly experienced and productive human brains."

Ah, I remember this website! This might be a good read. Thank you for the link.

[RaymondMack]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but HIOKI is not known for producing world class instruments. I've owned one of their "HI-Tester" battery impedance meters and I wasn't blown away by the build quality or knobology of the front panel. It was of acceptable quality though. That said, these newer instruments that leighcorrial has linked a pdf to do look nice, but not earth shattering. Current Keysight and Keithley electrometer/high resistance gear offer as good, if not better performance. Production equipment is not the same a metrology equipment. NIST makes custom standards and test setups while VISHAY is apparently buying their production line gear from HIOKI. I can't see how that makes HIOKI the go to source for resistance measurements. Sorry ITTSB.Europe I don't buy your blatant self-promotion of HIOKI. They are okay, but are not and have never been a premier instrumentation manufacturer.

[Stray Electron]

https://www.ittsb.eu/  "Reviews of ONLY THE BEST !!   Tools for truly experienced and productive human brains."

   I'm curious about this statement that he made:

"When Vishay Foil Resistor brand asked me of what quantity of samples I am going to need, I did the smart thought to order one more from all values.
When samples arrived, I did measure all packs of ten resistors, and best one of its value this kept so to become part of this new project with code name: Ultra-High Precision resistor box!! "

    If he indeed tested at least ten of every resistor value then I would like to know what the range of measured values were and also what the resistor specification was.

   The article seems to be long on claims but short on facts and real numbers.

[TiN]

HIOKI RM3542A is pretty boring (metrology wise) 6.5 digit meter, clearly designed for speedy production line testing. It is no wonder that this meter was unable to measure any change in much more demanding VPG resistors, as it does not have the resolution or accuracy needed. Best Hioki's accuracy is 70 ppm a year for 10kOhm, so nothing to write home about and typical cheaper 6.5 digit benchtop DMMs like 34465A already have better specifications and performance. Obviously this is not any use for standard resistance metrology and calibration use when single-digit ppms are at stake.

Sadly ITTSB's does not provide any useful insight about RM3542A instrument either, not a single test result , measurement data or even just teardown presented on his site ;(. Marketing claims caveat emptor.

[ITTSB.Europe]

https://www.ittsb.eu/  "Reviews of ONLY THE BEST !!   Tools for truly experienced and productive human brains."

Ah, I remember this website! This might be a good read. Thank you for the link.

Dear Mr. Leigh Corrigall, my website this is made so to assist people up to your own caliber (level of education), as source of information.
In the end of the day, you are after of new experiences, and you will get them sooner than many others, I bet that you are well aware of working systematically about conquering new subjects. 

While your DMM of choice, this belongs to an old industrial test system, this will not stop you exploring resistors at the tolerance as low as 1%.

Thank you, you are welcome!   
 

[ITTSB.Europe]

HIOKI RM3542A is pretty boring (metrology wise) 6.5 digit meter, clearly designed for speedy production line testing. It is no wonder that this meter was unable to measure any change in much more demanding VPG resistors, as it does not have the resolution or accuracy needed. Best Hioki's accuracy is 70 ppm a year for 10kOhm, so nothing to write home about and typical cheaper 6.5 digit benchtop DMMs like 34465A already have better specifications and performance. Obviously this is not any use for standard resistance metrology and calibration use when single-digit ppms are at stake.

Sadly ITTSB's does not provide any useful insight about RM3542A instrument either, not a single test result , measurement data or even just teardown presented on his site ;(. Marketing claims caveat emptor.

ITTSB respects the work of the best engineers of our planet, and it will never publicly display the gold-plated internals of an HIOKI best in class tool.
Amateurs and hobbyist as you are, they can find other web places to kill time or for their entertainment.

And now its time for my own moment of entertainment  , the castle of HIOKI it open it doors only to real KNIGHTS and you are not one of us, no matter of how you much you are trying to look as one of us.
   

[2N3055]

Self image inflation problems ??

[ITTSB.Europe]

Self image inflation problems ??

Read and ignored. 
When I do ignore stupidity, I gain more quality time for my self.

[The Soulman]

HIOKI RM3542A is pretty boring (metrology wise) 6.5 digit meter, clearly designed for speedy production line testing. It is no wonder that this meter was unable to measure any change in much more demanding VPG resistors, as it does not have the resolution or accuracy needed. Best Hioki's accuracy is 70 ppm a year for 10kOhm, so nothing to write home about and typical cheaper 6.5 digit benchtop DMMs like 34465A already have better specifications and performance. Obviously this is not any use for standard resistance metrology and calibration use when single-digit ppms are at stake.

Sadly ITTSB's does not provide any useful insight about RM3542A instrument either, not a single test result , measurement data or even just teardown presented on his site ;(. Marketing claims caveat emptor.

ITTSB respects the work of the best engineers of our planet, and it will never publicly display the gold-plated internals of an HIOKI best in class tool.
Amateurs and hobbyist as you are, they can find other web places to kill time or for their entertainment.

And now its time for my own moment of entertainment  , the castle of HIOKI it open it doors only to real KNIGHTS and you are not one of us, no matter of how you much you are trying to look as one of us.
   

What makes gold plating on the inside do any good apart from corrosion prevention?

btw, with regards to actual performance, data speaks louder than words.

[TimFox]

His expertise speaks for itself.

[Echo88]

"Complete analysis of RM3542A features this can be found by simply reading it User Manual (PDF), this presentation was indented to be a celebration in favor of Vishay Foil Resistor brand and of HIOKI E.E. Corporation."

Our shiny Knight writes marketing wank for gear.

[2N3055]

Self image inflation problems ??

Read and ignored. 
When I do ignore stupidity, I gain more quality time for my self.

Just to make sure i got it right, you just called me stupid?
I know it seems redundant, I'm sorry, but I'm not very smart so just wanted to make sure i understood right.

So I can crawl under my stone and live my life in shame and misery that I insulted a shiny, honorable knight with my presence and my audacity to speak up without permission..
And cry softly in my misery, not to disturb greatness of Your Highness..

...said he, and went off to whip himself for the sins he committed.
 

[ITTSB.Europe]

"Complete analysis of RM3542A features this can be found by simply reading it User Manual (PDF), this presentation was indented to be a celebration in favor of Vishay Foil Resistor brand and of HIOKI E.E. Corporation."

Our shiny Knight writes marketing wank for gear.

Is this the opinion of a Playmobil?
It was my favorite toy, but I never started a serious conversation with one of them.
Are you a Chinese living in Germany?  My writing it is a pain to them no matter of their location.
But one device manufactured by 100% Japanese components it is a source of admiration, always was.
This is no SONY TV set, this made in China. 

[TimFox]

Could you re-phrase the last two lines of that post?

[ITTSB.Europe]

His expertise speaks for itself.

You are a true source of amusement, the expertise this is measured by you giving exams every single day.
And the amount of your worth or value, this is a decision of the better ones than you.
If they decide that you do measure up, then your name gets recorded in their wall too.
http://www.vishaypg.com/foil-resistors/case-studies/

[TimFox]

My name is already written in the Book of Life, thank you.

[Echo88]

Geez, cant even argue anymore with you. Just seems wrong after visiting your forum.

[dietert1]

As far as i understand, personal attacks like the one started by TiN are undesirable in this forum. If you have nothing to contribute but aggression and personal disappointments, please stop it. As far as i remember, the most recent contribution of TiN in this forum about the LM399 cool-down did not at all require a metrology DMM.
There are technicians who want to be engineers and engineers who want to be scientists. No problem.

Regards, Dieter

[Simon]

Can we quit the arguing please. I'll read through in a bit and work out if anyone needs banning.

OK, I see, it's our old friend Kiriakos returned. Well your choice mate, start the same crap as before and you get banned like before