Author Topic: Precision Resistors - General Thread  (Read 34306 times)

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Offline ITTSB.Europe

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Re: Precision Resistors - General Thread
« Reply #50 on: August 14, 2021, 09:11:06 am »
Can we quit the arguing please. I'll read through in a bit and work out if anyone needs banning.

OK, I see, it's our old friend Kiriakos returned. Well your choice mate, start the same crap as before and you get banned like before  :popcorn:

I do not give a shit about banning as and before.  :)
Now get busy of taking heads of several accounts which polluting other people topics.
By this way you will prove your friendship to the ones who care for it.
 
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Precision Resistors - General Thread
« Reply #51 on: August 14, 2021, 11:21:47 am »
Sorted!
 

Offline TiN

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Re: Precision Resistors - General Thread
« Reply #52 on: August 28, 2021, 06:38:25 pm »
Got updated annual drift chart based on data of 21 (yep, twenty one) pcs ESI SR104 from different manufacturing dates. As memory refresher, these standards are specified at 0.5ppm/year drift by design (after first two years), but in reality and worldwide metrology labs experience they show much better performance numbers. This plot shows that too, based on calibrated units, owned by metrology enthusiasts. Most SR104 are stable to <0.1ppm/year.  :-+

Credits to zlymex for this work, I've just added few SR104s data and updates from 2019-2021 calibrations.



I'm very happy to own the golden one with <10 ppb/year drift.  :popcorn: (According to NMI-level calibrations I've got on it with uncertainty 0.10 ... 0.16 ppm).

If you have SR104 data/history , please do share so we can get this plot even bigger. Not easy nor cheap to monitor SR104's over multiple years.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2021, 06:50:36 pm by TiN »
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Offline mzzj

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Re: Precision Resistors - General Thread
« Reply #53 on: September 01, 2021, 03:27:09 pm »

If you have SR104 data/history , please do share so we can get this plot even bigger. Not easy nor cheap to monitor SR104's over multiple years.
Not SR104 but it looks like our 100ohm Tinsley 5685A has drifted less than 0.2ppm in 12 years. (half a guess as local NMI provides 0.4ppm uncertainty)
Many 5685A's are known to be stable to 0.2ppm over 20 years. (We got lucky with the tempco also, IIRC 0.05ppm/cel.)
 
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Offline leighcorrigallTopic starter

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Re: Precision Resistors - General Thread
« Reply #54 on: September 01, 2021, 05:58:24 pm »
Got updated annual drift chart based on data of 21 (yep, twenty one) pcs ESI SR104 from different manufacturing dates.

...


Amazing, Illya. This is what this thread is about!

EDIT: Are you sure you can assume that the ppm/a is a linear response? Most references illustrated do not have enough data to justify that assumption. The response might be more like a saturation curve. Unfortunately, it might take several decades of yearly measurements from the time of manufacturing to find out.

These resistors are most impressive. One day, I hope to own one too.  :-+

Does this chart have anything to do with your latest article https://xdevs.com/article/g6675a/;)

Regards.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2021, 07:21:48 pm by leighcorrigall »
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Online Kleinstein

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Re: Precision Resistors - General Thread
« Reply #55 on: September 01, 2021, 09:39:56 pm »
The drift does not have to be linear, but it also does not have to be a simple relaxation. The treatment in the time in between can have an effect, like vibrations and changes in temperature (e.g. hysteresis) and maybe the magnetic field. At the low level it is also some drift and adjustments at the national institutes. Part of the drift / noise may also be on that side. 
 

Offline TiN

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Re: Precision Resistors - General Thread
« Reply #56 on: September 01, 2021, 10:58:24 pm »
EDIT: Are you sure you can assume that the ppm/a is a linear response? Most references illustrated do not have enough data to justify that assumption. The response might be more like a saturation curve. Unfortunately, it might take several decades of yearly measurements from the time of manufacturing to find out.

I'd rather say the opposite if we trust statistics. There are 21 resistors of different year of manufacture and different owners/labs but they all somewhat came to same around 0.1ppm/year figure.  ^-^

Sure, there must be some non-linearity and outliers, but given the limited uncertainty (even best of the best labs can only give 0.1-0.2 ppm uncertainty of one fixed day measurement!) this does give idea that probability of good resistor jumping few ppm outside of expected value exists, but low (since it would need to jump back to same magnitude to reach last measured value).

Anyway, I'll continue with effort on my unit and hopefully will be able to answer your question by year 2032 or so.  :-//
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Offline leighcorrigallTopic starter

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Re: Precision Resistors - General Thread
« Reply #57 on: September 01, 2021, 11:25:22 pm »
The drift does not have to be linear, but it also does not have to be a simple relaxation.

I think Kleinstein is correct here.

Ultimately, these curves are so subtle that they would be very difficult to argue. I take back my previous criticism.

Half-jokingly, I have no doubt that TiN will have an answer for me on my 43rd birthday.  :-DD
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Offline TiN

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Re: Precision Resistors - General Thread
« Reply #58 on: September 02, 2021, 12:21:52 am »
Also side note, chart calibration points do take SI Ohm adjustment in 1990 into account.
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Online bdunham7

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Re: Precision Resistors - General Thread
« Reply #59 on: September 02, 2021, 12:34:31 am »
Got updated annual drift chart based on data of 21 (yep, twenty one) pcs ESI SR104 from different manufacturing dates.

Am I correct when I see that some of those only have two measurement points--for example the solid red one that shows 1969 and 2021?

And they all sort of go up at similar slopes over the years?
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline leighcorrigallTopic starter

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Re: Precision Resistors - General Thread
« Reply #60 on: September 02, 2021, 12:45:03 am »

Am I correct when I see that some of those only have two measurement points ...

This is why I made my point about the curvature. Any two points make a line. This is likely the best available data on a collection of standards.


...

And they all sort of go up at similar slopes over the years?

As pointed out earlier, the slopes are extremely gradual (which is great as a standard), it would be difficult to discriminate the data -- at least in my limited capacity.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2021, 12:46:42 am by leighcorrigall »
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Offline leighcorrigallTopic starter

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Re: Precision Resistors - General Thread
« Reply #61 on: September 03, 2021, 03:09:24 am »
Since custom Vishay voltage dividers are becoming difficult to purchase these days in reasonable timeframes, I have recently purchased two off-the-shelf Vishay SMNZ resistor networks based on Z-foil technology for a precision voltage application that I am working on as a substitute for a Vishay Accutrim trimming potentiometer and a VHD200 voltage divider. Originally, I was going to borrow the voltage buffer concept from kj7e https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/ltz1000-10v-buffer/msg1435737/#msg1435737 that relies on a trimmer to achieve 10 DCV.

SMNZ:
http://www.vishaypg.com/docs/63117/smnz.pdf

Accutrim:
http://www.vishaypg.com/docs/63056/12801285.pdf
http://www.vishaypg.com/docs/63054/Accutrim_1260_RJ24.pdf

VHD200:
http://www.vishaypg.com/docs/63036/vhd200_144.pdf

My interest in this resistor network technology began when TiN pointed out a significant disadvantage when using trimmers for precision voltage standards in a private email, which made me contemplate the use of a 4 resistor SOIC package instead. The disadvantage being that a trimmer can lose its position during transportation (rendering it pointless as a transfer standard), the trimmer TCR through the wiper is 25 ppm/°C (although promoted as '5 ppm/°C', which refers to the resistor itself), and thick film trimmers are not as stable as Vishay's Z-foil technology over time. I can ramble on about the trimmers, but you can read the datasheets for yourself. The advantage of the resistor network is that it is compact in size and will share a similar TCR. Furthermore, networks can provide a selectable fixed-resistance when the soldering connections or even with quality jumpers.

These are the various configurations that come to mind when applying a Vishay Y1747V0227AT9W (4 x 350 Ω SOIC-8 package):

configuration   resistance value
R|R|R|R      87.5
R|R|R      116.67
(R+R)|R|R      140
R|R         175
(R+(R|R))|R   210
(R+R)|R      233.33
(R+R+R)|R   262.5
R         350
R|R|R+R      466.67
R|R+R      525
(R+R)|R+R   583.33
R+R         700
R|R+R+R      875
R+R+R      1050
R+R+R+R      1400

The average resistance step size of the 4 x 350 Ω resistor network is about 50 Ω until 583.3 Ω, which is fairly reasonable for my application. If the maximum resistance limit of interest is 262.5 Ω, then the average resistance step size reduces to 30 Ω. Even though the resistor network cannot compete with the continuous resistance values that a trimmer provides for a voltage divider, this package balances versatility and stability in a precision application.

For context, my resistor application is a critical component to a 10 DCV output stage for an LTZ1000ACH output board. The design was modified from TiN's FX-ref board: https://xdevs.com/article/792x/

You can view my resistance network simulation with Falstad (open the attached txt file with https://www.falstad.com/circuit/) to get a sense of my application. The voltage divider network was designed to handle any LTZ1000 output and convert it into ~10 DCV.

1) The variable LTZ1000 input voltage range is based on the standard deviation of all available reported measurements (n = 16) I could find for the KX-ref, in addition to a multiplication factor of 4. This resulted in the range of approximately 7.047 to 7.216 DCV. Fun fact: my recent KX-ref is within this range (7.09295 DCV) but rather low in comparison to the mean. It is outside the limit of 1 standard deviation (7.11052 to 7.15267 DCV). The LTZ1000 datasheet provides a wide output range of 6.9 to 7.5 DCV.
2) Read the picture for a description of how to obtain ~10 DCV with the precision resistance network and a very small trimmer (if necessary). The simulation should be fairly intuitive. For example, with an input of 7.09259 DCV, the circuit can achieve an output of 9.951 DCV (0.5 % tolerance) without a trimmer. If a trimmer is necessary, then setting the trimmer to 70.2 Ω, it should be possible to achieve ~ 10 DCV. In this scenario, the optional trimmer would not contribute much to the overall TCR since the divider would be 10 kΩ / (703.33 Ω + 70.2 Ω).

Anyways. That is it for me. Hope I haven't confused anyone with my ramblings.  :-X

Enjoy!
« Last Edit: September 03, 2021, 01:38:52 pm by leighcorrigall »
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Offline leighcorrigallTopic starter

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Re: Precision Resistors - General Thread
« Reply #62 on: September 08, 2021, 06:07:08 pm »
Today, a package of glass-coated wire wound resistors arrived from Russia! A special thank you, shodan@micron.  :-+

You can learn more about them and their history at: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/mpx(mrh)-resistors/

A video from the thread: https://www.rvmagnetics.com/production  :popcorn:

Quick 4-wire 6.5-digit DMM measurement without shielding reveals the following:
20 MΩ: (- 0.0295 %, - 0.1235 %, - 0.0820 %, - 0.0975 %)
10 MΩ: (- 0.0040 %, + 0.0026 %, - 0.0122 %)
10 kΩ: (+ 0.326 %)

Very impressive values considering the age and that these resistors were sitting in a warehouse box for decades.




« Last Edit: September 24, 2021, 08:08:18 pm by leighcorrigall »
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Offline bsw_m

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Re: Precision Resistors - General Thread
« Reply #63 on: September 08, 2021, 06:42:45 pm »
Strange result for a 10k ohm resistor. They (S5-60) never drifted so much.
Please check your measurements.
 

Offline leighcorrigallTopic starter

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Re: Precision Resistors - General Thread
« Reply #64 on: September 08, 2021, 07:04:43 pm »
Strange result for a 10k ohm resistor. They (S5-60) never drifted so much.
Please check your measurements.

Thank you for pointing that out.

It is very likely that the Keithley 2000 DMM is not within tolerances. It is on loan until I get a replacement.  :'(

My Advantest R8340 says that it is 10.000 kΩ in two-wire mode. Until I get my Advantest R6581T calibrated/fixed, I won't be able to do much. I'll remeasure them again soon.
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Offline Anders Petersson

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Re: Precision Resistors - General Thread
« Reply #65 on: September 09, 2021, 11:54:57 am »
You can learn more about them and their history at: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/mpx(mrh)-resistors/

Shodan has sadly removed all his content from Eevblog. For some topics, information is still available in Russian at his site https://ampnuts.com/

My Advantest R8340 says that it is 10.000 kΩ in two-wire mode. Until I get my Advantest R6581T calibrated/fixed, I won't be able to do much. I'll remeasure them again soon.

Perhaps you have another 10 kOhm resistor with known value that you can check yout DMM against.
 

Online dietert1

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Re: Precision Resistors - General Thread
« Reply #66 on: September 10, 2021, 08:28:17 pm »
Look at this one and find the error!
On offer at ebay (US).

Regards, Dieter
 
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Online 2N3055

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Re: Precision Resistors - General Thread
« Reply #67 on: September 10, 2021, 08:35:33 pm »
Look at this one and find the error!
On offer at ebay (US).

Regards, Dieter

OK I give up, what's the error?
Do  you mean spec of 11111,10 while having last switch switching 0,01 ?
« Last Edit: September 10, 2021, 08:38:33 pm by 2N3055 »
 

Online iMo

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Re: Precision Resistors - General Thread
« Reply #68 on: September 10, 2021, 08:36:01 pm »
Decimal point in wrong position?
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Precision Resistors - General Thread
« Reply #69 on: September 10, 2021, 08:39:58 pm »
Decimal point in wrong position?
Switches go to 10...
 

Online dietert1

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Re: Precision Resistors - General Thread
« Reply #70 on: September 10, 2021, 08:42:25 pm »
I found another image with a Fluke hand meter indicating 11.11 KOhm. Each knob has positions 0 .. 10! So it's a creative interpretation of decimal numbers with a decimal point position that depends..

Regards, Dieter
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Precision Resistors - General Thread
« Reply #71 on: September 10, 2021, 08:52:27 pm »
I found another image with a Fluke hand meter indicating 11.11 KOhm. Each knob has positions 0 .. 10! So it's a creative interpretation of decimal numbers with a decimal point position that depends..

Regards, Dieter

Exactly, switches go to 10 and that means you have to carry 1 to next upper digit. So there are alternative combinations that give same nominal resistance.
Funny thing, 11111,10 spec is in original datasheet too. Maybe last digit is lost when set to max resistance..
I don't remember, it's been years since I used one, only remember laughing that resistance box needed a manual to operate. Guys in lab called it Enigma... :-)
But the specs are great...
 

Online The Soulman

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Re: Precision Resistors - General Thread
« Reply #72 on: September 10, 2021, 08:55:45 pm »
Just add up the numbers.
 

Online bdunham7

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Re: Precision Resistors - General Thread
« Reply #73 on: September 10, 2021, 09:01:37 pm »
Funny thing, 11111,10 spec is in original datasheet too. Maybe last digit is lost when set to max resistance..

It's not lost, just moved to the left like everything else. 

Why is the minimum specified as 100R?
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Online The Soulman

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Re: Precision Resistors - General Thread
« Reply #74 on: September 10, 2021, 09:14:36 pm »
Funny thing, 11111,10 spec is in original datasheet too. Maybe last digit is lost when set to max resistance..

It's not lost, just moved to the left like everything else. 

Why is the minimum specified as 100R?

Specified accuracy is from 100 to 10000 11111.10 Ohms, below it will work fine only less accurate (switch contact resistance is attributing more 
on lower ranges).
Above 10.000 Ohms it will still be pretty accurate, but it just isn't specified.

Edit: had to look at the picture again.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2021, 09:18:44 pm by The Soulman »
 


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