Author Topic: Teardown: Standard Resistors  (Read 143265 times)

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Offline notfaded1

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Re: Teardown: Standard Resistors
« Reply #200 on: February 27, 2020, 02:20:18 am »
Here's some of mine... first is esi dekabox db62

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Offline notfaded1

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Re: Teardown: Standard Resistors
« Reply #201 on: February 27, 2020, 02:22:25 am »
Second is venerable General Resistance RTD-100

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Offline notfaded1

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Re: Teardown: Standard Resistors
« Reply #202 on: February 27, 2020, 02:23:39 am »
Next is Ohmite Decade-Ranger

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Offline notfaded1

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Re: Teardown: Standard Resistors
« Reply #203 on: February 27, 2020, 02:27:21 am »
I have more but need to take pics... amazing the variations in the designs inside and craftsmanship.  :-+  I have a Dekavider RV622A I've never opened before still with a 10V reference attached to it from an old CAL lab I wanna open.  For as old as it looks it was pretty on.  I'm not sure if they (the lab) made the top part or if this was some product someone sold?
« Last Edit: February 27, 2020, 02:44:06 am by notfaded1 »
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Offline Vgkid

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Re: Teardown: Standard Resistors
« Reply #204 on: February 27, 2020, 04:04:37 am »
Thanks for the teardowns, i was always curious what the esi low ohm decades looked like.
It looks like there are several GR rtd simulator owners here.
So you bought the rv622a mystery combo :)
If you own any North Hills Electronics gear, message me. L&N Fan
 
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Offline Edwin G. Pettis

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Re: Teardown: Standard Resistors
« Reply #205 on: February 27, 2020, 04:39:31 am »
No that grey chassis is a home grown attachment, not made by ESI.
 

Offline Vgkid

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Re: Teardown: Standard Resistors
« Reply #206 on: February 27, 2020, 06:41:52 am »
I could easily tell it was not esi  made.
If you own any North Hills Electronics gear, message me. L&N Fan
 

Offline notfaded1

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Re: Teardown: Standard Resistors
« Reply #207 on: February 27, 2020, 11:40:36 am »
Thanks for the teardowns, i was always curious what the esi low ohm decades looked like.
It looks like there are several GR rtd simulator owners here.
So you bought the rv622a mystery combo :)
I'll have to post some 3458 measurements of the mystery combo.  I spent a while last night working on raspberry pi3 with latest kernel getting Keysight 82357B GPIB working.  Thanks for your guide TiN it helped me look in the right direction.  Getting the kernel source version correct so I could compile kernel modules was the trickiest part.

Bill
« Last Edit: February 27, 2020, 12:30:43 pm by notfaded1 »
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Offline notfaded1

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Re: Teardown: Standard Resistors
« Reply #208 on: February 27, 2020, 12:37:06 pm »
I new the top part wasn't made by ESI but it almost looks factory produced.  Both the 10V reference and the 100:1 divider have matching cases on the back.  From preliminary tests it's pretty solid.  I'm sure the Dekavider won't be giving my F720A a run for its money but it seems to work pretty well.

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Offline serg-el

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Re: Teardown: Standard Resistors
« Reply #209 on: March 16, 2020, 09:01:20 pm »
An interesting site.  A lot of information.
http://etoysbox.jp/1_TestEquipment/17_Std_R/Std_R.htm
 
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Offline serg-el

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Re: Teardown: Standard Resistors
« Reply #210 on: May 29, 2020, 10:30:28 pm »

ADVANTEST 10k, find no spec, 1 hermetically sealed WW resistor inside.
:phew:
 

Offline ArthurDent

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Re: Teardown: Standard Resistors
« Reply #211 on: May 30, 2020, 12:26:58 am »
Here's a photo of the resistor string inside a Guildline 4281-G volt box.
 
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Offline ArthurDent

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Re: Teardown: Standard Resistors
« Reply #212 on: May 30, 2020, 12:28:32 am »
Here's a photo of the resistor string inside an ESI SV-194 volt box.
 

Offline wolfy007

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Re: Teardown: Standard Resistors
« Reply #213 on: June 08, 2020, 04:49:19 pm »
Australian made J.L.William Scientific Instruments (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_William) decade boxes, serial numbers 3548 & 5136, showing a slight change in enclosure but otherwise identical internally.

Also have a Lindeck Potentiometer by the same maker, but havent opened that one up yet.


« Last Edit: June 08, 2020, 05:01:35 pm by wolfy007 »
 
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Offline ArthurDent

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Re: Teardown: Standard Resistors
« Reply #214 on: June 09, 2020, 01:00:30 pm »
You don't need switches to select different resistor values. Unlike most of the resistance boxes shown above, some of the really old decade resistor boxes used tapered shorting plugs to connect for the various combinations. Here is a Welch Scientific 3 decade box that goes from 0 ohms to 111 ohms in 0.1 ohm steps. The tapered shorting plugs have very low contact resistance.

Some of the larger units could probably be used as cribbage boards as well.   :-DD

P.S. - the meter in the background is reading my LTZ1000A 10 volt reference.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2020, 01:15:46 pm by ArthurDent »
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: Teardown: Standard Resistors
« Reply #215 on: June 09, 2020, 03:35:52 pm »
Do you have any information on who made these resistor units sold by Welch?  Welch was an old Chicago company, which merged with Sargent in 1968, and now operates as Sargent-Welch from the Chicago suburbs, dealing in educational products.
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Teardown: Standard Resistors
« Reply #216 on: June 09, 2020, 04:16:34 pm »
As the thread is slowly migrating cover decade boxes and dividers too, I'll link my Muirhead D-801-D voltage divider.

As it is a Reyleigh divider, it has 20 matched resistors per decade. This allows it to maintain a constant input resistance (true potentiometer). The switch contacts are self-lubricating Silver-Graphite on Silver, with non-inductive windings on Mycalex cards. The residual resistance is <1ppm.




https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/kelvin-varley-reistor-porn/msg773770/#msg773770



« Last Edit: June 09, 2020, 05:18:24 pm by Gyro »
Best Regards, Chris
 
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Offline fenland787

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Re: Teardown: Standard Resistors
« Reply #217 on: July 15, 2020, 07:53:05 pm »
Hi,

Hope it's okay to jump on this thread but maybe you can help. I just got a Muirhead D-801-D delivered today - my first brush with a 'proper' voltage divider box - won on a well known auction site.

At first sight it seemed to function correctly other than a few switch positions being slightly sensitive to 'jiggling' the switch but then I noticed the '0.01' range went squiffy with the output voltage higher than it should be, in the 8 and 9 positions.

On opening the box, to my relief there was no sign whatsoever of anything having got hot, and apart from some of the switch contacts looking like some TLC with cotton buds and IPA would not go amiss all looked clean and good.

It was quickly evident that the end-end resistance of one side of the decade in question was exactly and precisely one resistor's worth too high at 1K0 rather than the 900R I was expecting, sooo:

1/ Hard to be sure by looking but based on the number of solder joints I think I see per stage, am I correct in my assumption that each of the resistors is actually wound as two in parallel to cancel winding inductance?

2/ If (1) is correct then my hope was that it could just be a 'dry joint'  (a cold joint on the other side of the Atlantic!)  but the 2.5 joints I can actually see/get to look fine so I have not tried a reflow (yet!).

3/ If (2) is actually a possibility, how easy is it to take things apart enough to get to any solder joints on the reverse side of the card and, indeed, are there any?

As a check I soldered a 200R type RC55Y precision resistor I happened to have in stock across the appropriate switch wires and the thing now works as it should.

As ever, thanks in advance for any pearls of wisdom....

Adrian
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Teardown: Standard Resistors
« Reply #218 on: July 16, 2020, 01:24:14 pm »
Hi Adrian, welcome.

Congratulations on your acquisition, if it's the one I think it is, the listing says "All switches and resistors visually checked. Cal checked" and mentions the 6-7 switch issue on the 0.01 decade to be fixed. I'm not sure if you have any comeback there.

It sounds as if it's generally in good condition anyway, and I can't see how any problem on that specific setting could be caused by any sort of overload. You might find the occasional unit that has been used as a rheostat, but for voltage divider use, they are pretty bulletproof. I would expect it to be well within spec anyway.

The contacts are solid silver stud with silver graphite wipers. The listing mentions DeOxit has been used. If the contacts are showing 'crud' then, yes, a good clean with IPA would be certainly be a good idea. The switches are supposed to be self-lubricating, but if it's been sitting for a long time, there's still the possibility of oxides or sulphides forming. Exercising the switches should be enough to clear that but I've found that the smallest trace of Electrolube EML, or even Vaseline keeps the surfaces well protected.

It was quickly evident that the end-end resistance of one side of the decade in question was exactly and precisely one resistor's worth too high at 1K0 rather than the 900R I was expecting, sooo:

1/ Hard to be sure by looking but based on the number of solder joints I think I see per stage, am I correct in my assumption that each of the resistors is actually wound as two in parallel to cancel winding inductance?

From memory, and looking at my photo above and the linked post, yes, I think most of the decades use parallel counter-windings to minimise inductance. I'm not sure about the highest one, I suspect that that one has enough resistance to swamp out the stray inductance.

Quote
2/ If (1) is correct then my hope was that it could just be a 'dry joint'  (a cold joint on the other side of the Atlantic!)  but the 2.5 joints I can actually see/get to look fine so I have not tried a reflow (yet!).

I suppose it's possible that one of the joints is dry, but construction quality is very high. Make sure you aren't seeing the effect of the next decade down, which is being switched in series with the resistor chain that is fooling you - it's best to measure the individual resistors and make sure you understand where the wiper position is when measuring them. I've attached the data page, which includes basic schematic below.

Quote
3/ If (2) is actually a possibility, how easy is it to take things apart enough to get to any solder joints on the reverse side of the card and, indeed, are there any?

Yes, that's entirely possible, the resistor cards would have been adjusted and matched before they were soldered into the switch banks. Maybe you can peer through between the solder joints from the other side of the switch with the aid of a strong light. Unfortunately, as you can see in the above photo, some of the 'pins' of the resistor card extend into the little holes in the switch body (bottom in the photo) for mechanical support, so you would need to unsolder all of its switch stud connections to get a card out. Entirely possible with care, but you need to be sure you need to first.

Quote
As a check I soldered a 200R type RC55Y precision resistor I happened to have in stock across the appropriate switch wires and the thing now works as it should.

Hmm, it does sound as if there's a problem then, but if the switch is twitchy then I'd address that first.


Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline fenland787

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Re: Teardown: Standard Resistors
« Reply #219 on: July 16, 2020, 02:21:06 pm »
Hi Chris,
Thanks for the speedy (and full) reply!

The switch contacts responded well to a clean and all is now stable.

Yes, I had checked the individual sections of the suspect decade and one measured 200 ohms where all the others were 100 and adding a 200 ohm resistor in parallel with the appropriate section brought everything right.

I'll now have a closer look. I think the fault can only be that one end of one winding is just not soldered or there has to be a break in the wire - given the simplicity of the device and if I rule out the supernatural, no other failure modes occur to me!

Adrian
 
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Offline Gyro

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Re: Teardown: Standard Resistors
« Reply #220 on: July 16, 2020, 04:42:14 pm »
You're welcome.

That looks pretty definitive then. Yes, it seems unlikely that it would  be a break in the wire - unless there is any visible damage (which would be pretty evident).

One thing you could try... very carefully scrape the insulation on the wire, just short of each solder joint and measure the resistance to that same stud. At the faulty one you should get a reading of 400R. If 3 joints are visible, that hopefully gives you a 75% chance without disassembly (or excessive disturbance)!
« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 04:47:08 pm by Gyro »
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline fenland787

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Re: Teardown: Standard Resistors
« Reply #221 on: July 16, 2020, 08:11:32 pm »
Ah-ha, problem found - and fixed?

I had decided that the best way to see what was going on was to remove the switch complete - only four easy solder joints to undo - having done that I could get it under my microscope easily. 

With the light shining 'just so' the last few mm of one of the windings looked a slightly different colour under the varnish with a very slight greenish tinge. Investigation with the tip of a scalpel revealed that the last 5mm or so was no longer wire but a brittle green 'string'!

Long story short, I simply scraped back 'till I had about 3mm of silver wire, scraped the varnish off the copper 'bus-bar' next to it, re-tinned both, taped the wire so it was in contact with the bus-bar and re-flowed the joint. The result was now about 66 ohms, removed the 200 ohm resistor I'd added and bingo - 100.002 (ish!) ohms.

I'm guessing some flux was left behind originally which over a long time ate up the nichrome(?) wire.

Now just clean everything up, re-assemble and see what we've got......

Adrian
« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 08:16:34 pm by fenland787 »
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Teardown: Standard Resistors
« Reply #222 on: July 16, 2020, 09:56:10 pm »
Good catch!  :-+

That's a little disturbing, I thought the varnish gave good protection. As you say, it could have been residual flux (combined with a damp environment maybe?).

Afaik, the wire is Manganin.

Chris


P.S. I'm going to have to do a paranoid inspection of mine now!
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline fenland787

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Re: Teardown: Standard Resistors
« Reply #223 on: July 17, 2020, 07:15:28 pm »
Hi Chris,

Yes, looking at it the varnish there do seem to be odd gaps here and there - and quite a few entombed brush hairs! I suppose I should re-annoint the area I've worked on, I use 1B31 conformal coat here for hand coating PCBs so I could use that but perhaps I should use something more like the original, is there a 'classic' type of varnish I should be using?

Thanks for the info on the wire type, I'm sure you're right and that would explain why it soldered so well without my having to reach for my bottle of Rubyfluid flux which is full of substances nobody in their right mind would want within 100 yards of an instrument like this!

All went back together fine and, yes, I think I can pronounce it fixed and tomorrow I can get on with using it for the job I intended, re-linearising the Data Precision 8200 following replacing a duff pot!

Thanks for the assistance, I am most appreciative!

Adrian
« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 07:19:15 pm by fenland787 »
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Teardown: Standard Resistors
« Reply #224 on: July 17, 2020, 10:17:29 pm »
You're very welcome Adrian,

Yes, it's fortunate that you didn't need anything aggressive to re-make the joint. Regarding the varnish, I would think that using modern conformal coat would be sensible. I suspect that the original varnish is too recent to be shellac - a gentle test of solubility in IPA or meths would be a clue there. It might even be something like the yacht varnish of the day (I don't know when polyurethane came in). I would just go with a nice blob of 1B31 on the repair and any gaps. It sounds as if they had a new painter on the job -  or an end-of-life paintbrush in use, the day that card was built!

I'm glad it ended well, I hope the linearity is up to expectations, as far as I can measure, my unit (S/N 370700) comes in better than .02% ratio accuracy.

Chris

« Last Edit: July 21, 2020, 09:19:03 am by Gyro »
Best Regards, Chris
 


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