Author Topic: The history of development of HP 34401a  (Read 4075 times)

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Offline MrYakimovYATopic starter

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The history of development of HP 34401a
« on: May 18, 2022, 10:59:11 am »
Hello!

I'm just interested in how was the famous multimeter made... I looked at www.hpmemoryproject.com but there is no any related information... I like very vell that DMM and I would want to know who and how made it many years ago... Maybe there are some pictures: develop team, prototypes of PCB and so on...

P.S. Sorry for my english, I haven't practice in writing some time...
 

Offline alm

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Re: The history of development of HP 34401a
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2022, 01:47:03 pm »
See if you can find a HP Journal article about it. Figure out when it first came out, and read HP journal issues from around that date. It came out in the time that HP started to become less open about the technology behind their products, so I don't know if there is one and how much detail it would contain.

The HP 3457A and 3468A/3478A might be considered as its predecessors.

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Offline Keith956

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Online KE5FX

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Re: The history of development of HP 34401a
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2022, 08:49:47 pm »

Offline MrYakimovYATopic starter

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Re: The history of development of HP 34401a
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2022, 12:34:09 am »
Ad majorem Sci-Hub gloriam.
Oh yes! This service is fantastic!

Thank you a lot for the article!!! It's very interesting!
 

Offline Dr. Frank

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Re: The history of development of HP 34401a
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2022, 09:27:31 am »
Hello,
the 34401A is derived from the 3458A, especially concerning its A/D Multislope III.
Probably the 3458A R&D team directly transferred their ideas into the 34401A design.
It also came on the market soon after the 3458A, in 1991, I think. My privately acquired unit is from 1992, and still working properly.
As far as I remember, several remainder of the the 3458A R&D team also designed the 34465/470A, about 25years later,  and then retired afterwards.
I assume, that there is no big expertise left over @ KS to invent / develop the next innovative generation of DMMs.
Frank
« Last Edit: May 19, 2022, 09:57:32 am by Dr. Frank »
 
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: The history of development of HP 34401a
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2022, 12:01:18 pm »
Yes, allegedly many of the original 34401A designers were pulled out of retirement and helped with the design of the new generation, starting with the 34461A.

This attached picture of the 34461A design team was published, when the new meter came on the market.
There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can not.
 

Offline MrYakimovYATopic starter

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Re: The history of development of HP 34401a
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2022, 01:01:01 pm »
Hello, Dr. Frank!

I read much about HP 3458 in HP Journal. What about ADC they are different in hardware, however the algorithm is almost the same. And the ADC in HP 34401a I like a little more... I don't know why...

Excuse me, you mean that there aren't experts at Keysight to develop new DMM? Then how the're developing other instruments? Are they (the instruments) simpler than DMM?)))

HighVoltage, thank you very much for the picture! It's nice to meet them))
 

Offline Dr. Frank

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Re: The history of development of HP 34401a
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2022, 01:54:22 pm »
Hello, Dr. Frank!

I read much about HP 3458 in HP Journal. What about ADC they are different in hardware, however the algorithm is almost the same. And the ADC in HP 34401a I like a little more... I don't know why...

Excuse me, you mean that there aren't experts at Keysight to develop new DMM? Then how the're developing other instruments? Are they (the instruments) simpler than DMM?)))

HighVoltage, thank you very much for the picture! It's nice to meet them))

In a recent product presentation about the 34401As multislope III A/D, I remember to have read exactly that, i.e. simplified HW, same state machine principle like the 3458A. I don't find this presentation any more, maybe it is inside the old manuals.

Me and some of other volt-nuts in this forum followed closely the development, or better the changes due to bugs of the 3446x platform, especially the 465/470A ones. See former analysis of the 465A/470A in another thread. Therefore we came to know that several of the old 3458A designers were involved, and that they either retired, or went to Keithley.
The R&D story behind the 3458A BE is also known in parts.. why and how there was no deep redesign, and probably will not happen any more in the future.
The design of such an instrument (DMM) is also very complicated, mostly analogue magic, don't underestimate this, and do not compare that with those RF designs, which are a completely different kind of magic.
Good analogue designers are getting more and more rare, I fear.
RF designers will not necessarily have the wisdom to design good DMMs.

The most important business for KS are scopes, and so, especially margin-wise.
Just watch the current Keysight Live Lab, what products they promote the most.
   
Frank
« Last Edit: May 20, 2022, 01:57:43 pm by Dr. Frank »
 
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Online Kleinstein

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Re: The history of development of HP 34401a
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2022, 06:18:42 pm »
The front end of the 34401 is still relatively similar to the 3478 / 3457, with most of the switching in a hybrid with rather similar function, just good for 10 V at the input instead of 3 V.
The ADC is a kind of novelty - not a big step forward in performance, but relatively low cost and protected by a then new patent.
There are mainly 2 good points about the ADC in the 34401: it is relatively low cost (avoid selected/matched JFETs), though it still uses an ASIC and the INL is relatively good.  Noise and resolution (especially for faster conversions like 1 PLC) are not especially good.
The big point was more like a cheaper alternative to the 3457 and getting a 10 V prime range and no longer the odd 3 V of the 3457.

The odd part is that the ADC in the 3457 is good for 10 V, while the MS3 ADC would work more naturally and better with a 3 V input range. :-//
Looks a little like they had a 3 V range in mind when they designed the ADC.
 

Offline MrYakimovYATopic starter

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Re: The history of development of HP 34401a
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2022, 02:50:44 pm »
So if Keysight is now scope expert what's LeCroy is going to do? Two big scope developers... who bill be acquired first by another?

Ok, I'll look at the thread about 465A/470A. I know about only bug that made it impossible to measure above 700 VDC and 400 VAC. I don't remeber the exact numbers. This was disscussed somewhere in the forum.

And who is the DMM leader developer now? The Keithley is acquinted by Tektronix. Maybe Fluke?


 

Offline nightfire

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Re: The history of development of HP 34401a
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2022, 03:16:59 pm »
Are Fluke, Keithley and Tektronix not hold together by Danaher/Fortive? So basically they are in the same boat...
 

Offline MrYakimovYATopic starter

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Re: The history of development of HP 34401a
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2022, 01:33:23 am »
Are Fluke, Keithley and Tektronix not hold together by Danaher/Fortive? So basically they are in the same boat...
Oh! That's news to me! So, they are!
 

Offline JohanH

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Re: The history of development of HP 34401a
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2022, 09:09:43 am »
It's a shame there is no centralized information about this meter. It really should have at least a wikipedia page or something. There is a ton of information in various places.
 

Offline MrYakimovYATopic starter

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Re: The history of development of HP 34401a
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2022, 02:07:46 pm »
It's a shame there is no centralized information about this meter. It really should have at least a wikipedia page or something. There is a ton of information in various places.
Indeed! The DMM is the milestone! It should be describerd in detail as much as it possible! Peope must know everything about it!
 

Offline alm

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Re: The history of development of HP 34401a
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2022, 03:24:44 pm »
There's a TekWiki to collect information on old Tektronix equipment, but I'm not aware of a similarly popular resource for HP/Agilent or any other test equipment brand.

Online ahbushnell

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Re: The history of development of HP 34401a
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2022, 01:28:54 am »
It's a shame there is no centralized information about this meter. It really should have at least a wikipedia page or something. There is a ton of information in various places.
Go on Wikipedia and start your own page.  I did that. 
 

Offline MrYakimovYATopic starter

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Re: The history of development of HP 34401a
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2022, 01:33:24 am »
There's a TekWiki to collect information on old Tektronix equipment, but I'm not aware of a similarly popular resource for HP/Agilent or any other test equipment brand.
I know only this one: https://www.hpmemoryproject.org/
 

Offline chickenHeadKnob

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Re: The history of development of HP 34401a
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2022, 01:50:37 am »
There were wildfires in Santa Rosa a few years back that destroyed or at least partially damaged  the archives of keysight/Agilent.

https://www.theregister.com/2017/10/29/hewlett_packard_history_lost_to_santa_rosa_fires/
 

Offline MrYakimovYATopic starter

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Re: The history of development of HP 34401a
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2022, 02:16:10 am »
There were wildfires in Santa Rosa a few years back that destroyed or at least partially damaged  the archives of keysight/Agilent.

https://www.theregister.com/2017/10/29/hewlett_packard_history_lost_to_santa_rosa_fires/
It's so sory to hear that. Who lit the bonfire and forget to shut it off? The whole story (most part at least) of the greatest company was destroyed. HP/Agilent were always some sort of inspiration to me! Nice equipment! Great open service manuals with a little theory, circuit diagrams, drawings and so on. Their beautiful HP Journal was fine addition to all!
 

Offline chickenHeadKnob

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Re: The history of development of HP 34401a
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2022, 03:27:03 am »
There were wildfires in Santa Rosa a few years back that destroyed or at least partially damaged  the archives of keysight/Agilent.

https://www.theregister.com/2017/10/29/hewlett_packard_history_lost_to_santa_rosa_fires/
It's so sory to hear that. Who lit the bonfire and forget to shut it off? The whole story (most part at least) of the greatest company was destroyed. HP/Agilent were always some sort of inspiration to me! Nice equipment! Great open service manuals with a little theory, circuit diagrams, drawings and so on. Their beautiful HP Journal was fine addition to all!
Big wild fires happen in Southern California all the time. Some caused by people, intentional arson, some caused by power lines, sometimes it is lightning. It is like a disaster zone there.
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: The history of development of HP 34401a
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2022, 04:59:19 am »

Big wild fires happen in Southern California all the time. Some caused by people, intentional arson, some caused by power lines, sometimes it is lightning. It is like a disaster zone there.
don't forget the shake-rattle-n-roll. California is gods etch-a-sketch.
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Offline mawyatt

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Re: The history of development of HP 34401a
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2022, 01:23:49 pm »
Keysight's CTO, Jay A lost his home to the Santa Rosa fires, so did Keysight Technical Fellow Tim S. The fires spared most of the Santa Rosa facility, however the nice 1960s style motel down the street (can't recall the name) we stayed when visiting didn't survive.

The old HP and Tektronix manuals were technical novels, unfortunately long since forgotten as we don't see these anymore  :(

Best,
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Offline RoGeorge

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Re: The history of development of HP 34401a
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2022, 02:13:08 pm »
HP archives and Tektronix manuals are still around, read and referenced quite often in this forum.

A collection of links to find most of them for free:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/found-a-goldmine-looking-for-more-treasures-(hp-journal-and-alike)/


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