Author Topic: Ultra Low Noise Reference 2DW232, 2DW233, 2DW23x  (Read 243684 times)

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Offline ramon

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Re: Ultra Low Noise Reference 2DW232, 2DW233, 2DW23x
« Reply #600 on: April 17, 2019, 01:41:27 pm »
I still can't work out why they use such thick and incredibly stiff steel wires on these devices... both from the perspective of thermal emfs and cracking of the glass seals, visible in janaf's second photo (#602).

Can you provide a source of information regarding thermal emf of steel? I have tried many times to find such data without success.
Steel has a relatively low thermal conductivity.
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Ultra Low Noise Reference 2DW232, 2DW233, 2DW23x
« Reply #601 on: April 17, 2019, 04:26:50 pm »
Copper-steel (or ever copper-pure iron) thermal emf is hard to find (steel would depend on composition too). If the leads are indeed some Kovar alloy, as seems likely, then the thermal emf is around 40uV/'C.
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Ultra Low Noise Reference 2DW232, 2DW233, 2DW23x
« Reply #602 on: April 17, 2019, 04:55:34 pm »
The thermal EMFs should cancel out, as long as everything is at a stable temperature?
 

Offline Kleinstein

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Re: Ultra Low Noise Reference 2DW232, 2DW233, 2DW23x
« Reply #603 on: April 17, 2019, 05:23:48 pm »
At least most of the thermal EMF should cancel. It would be mainly the temperature difference between the solder junctions of the 2 relevant pins. In addition the temperature difference tends to be rather stable and the stable part would be seen as part of the reference.
 

Offline sorin

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Re: Ultra Low Noise Reference 2DW232, 2DW233, 2DW23x
« Reply #604 on: June 01, 2019, 02:28:45 pm »
Recently i bought 10 pcs 2DW232 from aliexpress.
Can anyone suggest me a simple method to test if them are originals or fake?
I have only 2 Multimeter (UT61E + AN850B), 1 Power Suply KA3005D and a Rigol DS2072A.

 

Offline 42Khz

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Re: Ultra Low Noise Reference 2DW232, 2DW233, 2DW23x
« Reply #605 on: June 01, 2019, 02:42:18 pm »
Recently i bought 10 pcs 2DW232 from aliexpress.
Can anyone suggest me a simple method to test if them are originals or fake?
I have only 2 Multimeter (UT61E + AN850B), 1 Power Suply KA3005D and a Rigol DS2072A.

The easiest way is to crack one open.
If it's a single die inside covered in some gunk it's probably real (I'm not aware of any fakes like that) and if it's two discrete zeners it's a fake.
 

Offline Kleinstein

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Re: Ultra Low Noise Reference 2DW232, 2DW233, 2DW23x
« Reply #606 on: June 01, 2019, 03:59:02 pm »
Looking inside is probably the easiest way.
A non destructive way would be to build a simple reference circuit and measure the noise. Chances are high the fake ones would be much higher noise. I would not mind "fakes" that are very low noise.
 

Offline stijena1973

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Re: Ultra Low Noise Reference 2DW232, 2DW233, 2DW23x
« Reply #607 on: September 02, 2019, 12:13:29 pm »
I suspect that the component is fake. BE junction of some si transistors in the opposite direction behaves as 5.6 V zener. Could it be a mislabeled transistor?

Check for hfe, just in case.
 

Offline sorin

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Re: Ultra Low Noise Reference 2DW232, 2DW233, 2DW23x
« Reply #608 on: September 02, 2019, 01:04:38 pm »
They are not  transistors.
 

Offline cape zoloh

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Re: Ultra Low Noise Reference 2DW232, 2DW233, 2DW23x
« Reply #609 on: September 20, 2020, 09:05:25 pm »
Sorry to bump this thread. If anyone got some of the 2DW233/2 (with the diamond mark) for sale (or trade), please send me a message!
« Last Edit: September 20, 2020, 09:11:47 pm by cape zoloh »
 

Offline MegaVolt

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Re: Ultra Low Noise Reference 2DW232, 2DW233, 2DW23x
« Reply #610 on: September 21, 2020, 12:44:58 pm »
Sorry to bump this thread. If anyone got some of the 2DW233/2 (with the diamond mark) for sale (or trade), please send me a message!
I bought here. There is a diamond sign.
Didn't check the parameters :(
https://aliexpress.ru/item/32871103478.html
 

Offline Pipelie

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Re: Ultra Low Noise Reference 2DW232, 2DW233, 2DW23x
« Reply #611 on: September 22, 2020, 06:58:51 am »
Sorry to bump this thread. If anyone got some of the 2DW233/2 (with the diamond mark) for sale (or trade), please send me a message!
I bought here. There is a diamond sign.
Didn't check the parameters :(
https://aliexpress.ru/item/32871103478.html

be ware that not all the 2DW232 with diamond mark is the low noise one. we have tested samples from several source and we found the date code start with 12-xx and 13-xx are most likely the low noise one. the newer one is probably not, such as the 14-xx to 15-xx we tested are kind of bad.
 
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Offline KK6IL

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Re: Ultra Low Noise Reference 2DW232, 2DW233, 2DW23x
« Reply #612 on: October 17, 2020, 04:58:18 am »

I ordered 20 from the address MegaVolt supplied, and received 2 packages of 20 each, date code 15-4 (and 2 credit card charges). I may or may not have double ordered, not being used to AliExpress. Inked markings not very distinct.

With Pipelie's warning, I wanted a quick noise test so set up a comparison with a LM329. I set up a test using my LM399 standard as the source, 3K resistor for the LM329, and 750 ohms for the 2DW323, pins 1 & 2. Measured with Tek 7A22 plug-in set to 1Hz-1kHz bandwidth. Photos captured with Hantek DSO connected to 7834 Vertical Output. LM322 voltage source measures 35.6uV P-P. LM329 measures 25.2uV P-P, and 2DW232 measures 5.2uV P-P.

 
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Online Andreas

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Re: Ultra Low Noise Reference 2DW232, 2DW233, 2DW23x
« Reply #613 on: October 17, 2020, 02:15:46 pm »
Hello,

so you have 1:50000 amplification?

Hmm, to measure 1Hz you would need a minimum sweep time of 1 second.
Otherwise you get another pole by the limited measurement duration.

with best regards

Andreas
 
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Offline KK6IL

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Re: Ultra Low Noise Reference 2DW232, 2DW233, 2DW23x
« Reply #614 on: October 17, 2020, 11:43:39 pm »
You're correct. The high pass filter on the 7A22 plug-in ( love those) was set to 1 Hz, but the sweep time would have to be set slow to actually show really low freq noise.

I was just glad to see that the 2DW232's from that site were real Diamond components and were low noise compared to the LM329's.

I built a copy of a "low noise" 60 db amp, and was trying to add that to the test setup to get further above the scope noise when my LM399 supply started latching into a 3.5V output mode,  |O so will need to build a low noise, higher current supply to do further testing. The DW will be good for that as I will only worry about short term stability, and not 0 TC.
 

Offline Kleinstein

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Re: Ultra Low Noise Reference 2DW232, 2DW233, 2DW23x
« Reply #615 on: October 18, 2020, 09:28:31 am »
Chances are that even the not so good 2DW232 would be OK at the higher frequency. The real test is for the low frequency range and 1/f noise. The 1/f noise is what depends one purity and can vary between batches.

For a simple noise test one would ideally have to independent references and than measure the difference.
There is no real need to have a separate low noise supply. The normal 1 OP amplification of the ref. and getting the current from the amplified voltage should be Ok. This may even work with an LM358 on a breadboard - though poor contacts can be a hassle.
The difficulty may be more in setting the right current as 1/f noise and temperature fluctuations can look similar.
 

Offline edavid

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Re: Ultra Low Noise Reference 2DW232, 2DW233, 2DW23x
« Reply #616 on: October 19, 2020, 03:46:51 pm »
be ware that not all the 2DW232 with diamond mark is the low noise one. we have tested samples from several source and we found the date code start with 12-xx and 13-xx are most likely the low noise one. the newer one is probably not, such as the 14-xx to 15-xx we tested are kind of bad.

Pipelie, what is your noise test method?
 

Offline Pipelie

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Re: Ultra Low Noise Reference 2DW232, 2DW233, 2DW23x
« Reply #617 on: October 20, 2020, 06:58:58 am »
Hi edavid,

the LNA I'm using is this one. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/diy-low-frenquency-noise-meter/50/
also check post #195 for user manual. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/diy-low-frenquency-noise-meter/175/

test method:


result of 2DW234:


and others


 
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Offline serg-el

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Re: Ultra Low Noise Reference 2DW232, 2DW233, 2DW23x
« Reply #618 on: January 30, 2021, 09:26:47 pm »
Something no one writes for a long time.
I will add my measurements 2DW232.
Purchased 30 pieces for aliexpress.
The logo and date are present.



The legs are entirely made of kovar.
They are attracted by the magnet quite strongly.

Measurements were performed by R6871E and TR6142.
Temperature sensors LM35.
Self-heating readings were taken after stabilization for 30 minutes.
2DW232 is wrapped in polyester quilt wadding and placed in a jar.
The jar is closed with a lid and crushed by a load.

The time of 30 minutes was chosen for a reason, but after the current was set and the temperature stabilized.
I got a stabilization time constant of ~ 25 minutes.
Despite the fact that according to the documentation, the operating current is not more than 30 mA, 2DW232 survived,
  and did not change my reading after I applied a current of 110 mA to it.
The characteristics of the dependence of the voltage and temperature of self-heating on the current are taken.

To find the zero temperature coefficient point, a macro was compiled in EZGPIB.
Turn off the current - hold 10 seconds for a little cooling - set the current - turn on the current - hold 3 seconds - 50 voltage and temperature measurements - repeat.
In my case, it turned out 11.4 mA.


The dynamic resistance is calculated based on the set current and the measured voltage.


If you need data in CSV format, I'll be happy to provide.
Any suggestions and comments are welcome.

Macro EZGPIB
Code: [Select]
Program V_I_Logger;                 // Программа для снятия ВАХ

const MakeModel_DVM='R6871E';             // Указать модель мультиметра
const MakeModel_PS='TR6142';              // Указать модель источника питания
const GPIB_address_DVM = 1;              // Указать адрес мультиметра на шине GPIB
const GPIB_address_PS = 4;               // Указать адрес источника питания на шине GPIB

const Directory = 'C:\Incoming';     // Путь для сохранения файла CSV
const Timeout = 5;
//const Descript = 'тест тока TR6142 ';     // Описание измерений
const Descript = '2DW232 1+ и 2- вывод CI5 IT6 11...13 mA';     // Описание измерений

var Filename : String;
var t_start_datetime: TDateTime;           
var t_acq_datetime: TDateTime;             
var tmp_str:String;
var elapsed_time:longint;
var Answer:String;
var Ivdc_set:String;

var Temp_in:String;
var Temp_out:String;
var Count:integer;
var Count_str:String;
var Count_single:single;
var Count2:integer;
var Make:String;
var Maker:TDateTime;
var i:integer;
var Answer_dbl:Double;

procedure Init_File;
begin;
   Maker := EZGPIB_TimeNow;                          // Дата/время создания файла
   EZGPIB_FileClearBuffer;
   tmp_str:='date';                                  // First column
   EZGPIB_ConvertAddToString(tmp_str,';');
   EZGPIB_ConvertAddToString(tmp_str,'VDC' + ';' );
   EZGPIB_ConvertAddToString(tmp_str,'Idc' + ';' );
   EZGPIB_ConvertAddToString(tmp_str,'Temp_in °C'+';');         
   EZGPIB_ConvertAddToString(tmp_str,'Temp_out °C'+ #13 + #10);     //  + пустую строку для более простого выделения столбца в Excel
   EZGPIB_FileAddToBuffer(tmp_str);                 
   Filename := Directory +'\';
   EZGPIB_ConvertAddToString(Make,Maker);
   Make := AnsiReplaceText ( Make, ':', '_');        //Замена недопустимых символов в имени файла
   EZGPIB_ConvertAddToString(Filename,Make);
   EZGPIB_ConvertAddToString(Filename,' '+ MakeModel_DVM);
   EZGPIB_ConvertAddToString(Filename,'.csv');       
   EZGPIB_FileWrite(Filename);                       // Save File
end;

procedure Save_Descript;
begin;
   EZGPIB_FileClearBuffer;
   tmp_str :='';
   EZGPIB_ConvertAddToString(tmp_str,Descript +#13+#10);     // Описание измерений
   EZGPIB_FileAddToBuffer(tmp_str);                   // Add to file buffer
   EZGPIB_FileWrite(Filename);                        // Save File
   EZGPIB_ScreenWriteLn(tmp_str);
end;   

procedure Save_File;
begin;
   EZGPIB_FileClearBuffer;
   tmp_str :='';   
   EZGPIB_ConvertAddToString(tmp_str,t_acq_datetime); // First column 
   EZGPIB_ConvertAddToString(tmp_str,';');             
   EZGPIB_ConvertAddToString(tmp_str,Answer);         // Second column
   EZGPIB_ConvertAddToString(tmp_str,';');   
   EZGPIB_ConvertAddToString(tmp_str,Ivdc_set);
   EZGPIB_ConvertAddToString(tmp_str,';');   
   EZGPIB_ConvertAddToString(tmp_str,Temp_in);
   EZGPIB_ConvertAddToString(tmp_str,';');   
   EZGPIB_ConvertAddToString(tmp_str,Temp_out); 
   EZGPIB_FileAddToBuffer(tmp_str);                   // Add to file buffer
   EZGPIB_FileWrite(Filename);                        // Save File
   EZGPIB_ScreenWriteLn(tmp_str);
   tmp_str :='';   
end; 

procedure Init_Device_DVM;
begin;
   EZGPIB_BusAutoOff; // Эквивалент команды ++auto 0
   EZGPIB_BusWriteData(GPIB_address_DVM,'Z');            // Reset to defaults
   EZGPIB_TimeSleep(5);
   EZGPIB_BusWriteData(GPIB_address_DVM,'ac');           // Acal execute
   EZGPIB_TimeSleep(3);
   EZGPIB_BusWriteData(GPIB_address_DVM,'++read_tmo_ms 5000'); // установка таймаута 10 сек
   EZGPIB_BusIFC; // Perform an Interface Clear
   EZGPIB_BusEnableEoi;
   EZGPIB_BusSetEos(0);           
   EZGPIB_TimeSleep(1);
   
    // IT8 100 PLC
    // IT7 50 PLC
    // IT6 20 PLC
    // IT5 10 PLC
    // IT4 5 PLC
    // IT3 1 PLC
    // IT2 10 msec
    // IT1 1 msec
    // IT0 100 usec
   
    //CI acal interval, min
   
    //F1  --> VDC
    //F2  --> VAC
    //F3  --> 2W Ohm
    //F4  --> 4W Ohm
    //F5  --> ADC
    //F8  --> VDC + ADC
    //F9  --> ADC + AAC
   
    //R5  --> 20 V
    //R6  --> 200 V   
   
   
    //R5  --> 20 mA
    //R6  --> 200 mA
   

   EZGPIB_BusWriteData(GPIB_address_DVM,'F1,R5,M1,IT6,SI0,TD0,AZ1,RE7,CI5');
   EZGPIB_TimeSleep(2);
   EZGPIB_BusWriteData(GPIB_address_DVM,'H0,S0,SL2,DL0,CS');
   EZGPIB_TimeSleep(5);
   EZGPIB_BusAutoOn;   
end;
procedure Init_Device_PS;
begin;
   EZGPIB_BusAutoOff;
   EZGPIB_BusWriteData(GPIB_address_PS,'C');
   EZGPIB_TimeSleep(1);
   EZGPIB_BusWriteData(GPIB_address_PS,'I3');

end;
// Main procedure 
begin;
   EZGPIB_screenclear;                      // Clear the Output Console
   EZGPIB_BusEnableEoi;
   EZGPIB_BusSetEos (0);
   Init_Device_DVM;                             // Send command strings to meter
   Init_Device_PS;
   Init_File;                             //
   Save_Descript;
   
   //EZGPIB_BusWriteData(GPIB_address_PS,'D.5');  //если надо задать начальный ток
   EZGPIB_BusWriteData(GPIB_address_PS,'E');
      EZGPIB_TimeSleep(0.5);
   
   t_start_datetime :=EZGPIB_TimeNow;     // Get time at beginning of each cycle
   elapsed_time:=0; 
   tmp_str :='';

   while (Count <= 130) and (not ezgpib_kbdKeyPressed) do begin;
    for Count:=110 to 130 do
  begin
     EZGPIB_BusAutoOff;
     EZGPIB_BusWriteData(GPIB_address_PS,'H');     //выдержка времени для короткого остывания 2DW232
             EZGPIB_TimeSleep(10);                          //   -//-
             EZGPIB_BusWriteData(GPIB_address_PS,'E');       // включение выхода TR6142
             EZGPIB_TimeSleep(0.5);
   
           Count_str := IntToStr (Count);     
   Count_single := EZGPIB_ConvertToFloatNumber(Count_str);
   Count_single := Count_single /10 ;
   Count_str := EZGPIB_ConvertToFixed(Count_single,1);  // ;
   Ivdc_set := Count_str;
   

           EZGPIB_BusWriteData(GPIB_address_PS,'D'+Count_str);
           EZGPIB_TimeWaitForMultipleOf(3);      //Выдержка между циклами после установки тока
       
    for Count2:=1 to 50 do
   begin
   EZGPIB_BusAddressDevice (1);

     repeat
       if ezgpib_kbdKeyPressed then exit ;
       EZGPIB_BusAutoOff;
       Answer:='';                             // Clear previous reading
       EZGPIB_BusWriteData(GPIB_address_DVM,'E');
       EZGPIB_BusWriteData(GPIB_address_DVM,'++read');
     i:=0;
       repeat
        EZGPIB_TimeSleep(0.0001);                             
        i:=i+1;
       until (EZGPIB_BusDataAvailable or (i>200000));     
      Answer:=EZGPIB_BusGetData;
     until Length(Answer)>1;     
          Answer_dbl:=EZGPIB_ConverttoFloatNumber(Answer);  //конвертирование ответа из str в экспоненциальный
          Answer:=EZGPIB_ConvertStripToNumber(Answer_dbl);  //конвертирование ответа из exp в числовой
          Answer := AnsiReplaceText ( Answer, '.', ',');   // переделка ответа под стандарт с цифровым разделителем запятой


    EZGPIB_BusAutoOn;   
     repeat   
      Temp_in:='';                             // Clear previous reading
     EZGPIB_BusWriteData(GPIB_address_DVM,'++temp1');
    // EZGPIB_TimeSleep(0.5);
   //  EZGPIB_BusWriteData(GPIB_address_DVM,'++read');
     i:=0;
       repeat
        EZGPIB_TimeSleep(0.001);                             
        i:=i+1;
       until (EZGPIB_BusDataAvailable or (i>2000));     
      Temp_in:=EZGPIB_BusGetData;
     until Length(Temp_in)>1;

       
     Temp_in := AnsiReplaceText ( Temp_in, '.', ','); // переделка ответа под стандарт с цифровым разделителем запятой

     repeat
     Temp_out:='';                             // Clear previous reading
     EZGPIB_BusWriteData(GPIB_address_DVM ,'++temp3');
     //EZGPIB_TimeSleep(0.5);
    // EZGPIB_BusWriteData(GPIB_address_DVM,'++read');
     i:=0;
       repeat
        EZGPIB_TimeSleep(0.001);                             
        i:=i+1;
       until (EZGPIB_BusDataAvailable or (i>2000));     
      Temp_out:=EZGPIB_BusGetData;
     until Length(Temp_out)>1;
     Temp_out := AnsiReplaceText ( Temp_out, '.', ','); // переделка ответа под стандарт с цифровым разделителем запятой           
         
t_acq_datetime := EZGPIB_TimeNow;
        Save_File;                                     // If result contains data, write data to the file
       
       
   end;
end;
   end;
   EZGPIB_BusAutoOff;
   EZGPIB_BusWriteData(GPIB_address_PS,'H');    // выключать выход TR6142 после измерений
end.                                             


edit: Correction of the description of the macro.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2021, 12:40:06 pm by serg-el »
 

Offline serg-el

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Re: Ultra Low Noise Reference 2DW232, 2DW233, 2DW23x
« Reply #619 on: February 04, 2021, 07:57:41 am »
After preheating with a current of 11.4 mA for an hour.
The measurement is more accurate.
The macro is the same.



The noises are low.
No telegraph noise visible.


« Last Edit: February 04, 2021, 12:01:54 pm by serg-el »
 

Offline Kleinstein

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Re: Ultra Low Noise Reference 2DW232, 2DW233, 2DW23x
« Reply #620 on: February 04, 2021, 08:57:39 am »
With only some 12 mA the current is still moderate. In the earier reports the current to reach zero TC showed quite some scattering, possibly to high for practical use. The 12 mA are already higher than the nominal 7.5 mA, and the power loss makes it a little tricky to get a stable temperature.  AFAIK large temperature variations can still be a problem, as the voltage over temperature  looks like a parabola. To get a really stable voltage one still needs to be within some 5 K of the maximum.

The noise looks good - the big problem is that a direct measurement gives the combined noise of the DUT and reference inside the meter. It looks like the R6871E has a low noise reference. Chances are that much of the noise is from the meter and not so much from the DUT.
For a more stringent test, one may have to use 2 of the zeners and measure the difference.
 

Online dietert1

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Re: Ultra Low Noise Reference 2DW232, 2DW233, 2DW23x
« Reply #621 on: February 04, 2021, 05:56:57 pm »
Does this noise determination include the R6871E noise or is this a difference between two low noise references? As far as i understand it should be very easy for you to build a setup with two such references and the R6871E as a null meter.

By the way, the standard deviation of 0.29 uV means about 0.041 ppm of 7 V. Looks familiar - the two LTFLU references i made in Mai 2020 give about 0.030 ppm when looking at hourly and daily averages. In addition they exhibit drift processes that one wouldn't call noise. As far as i know a LTZ1000 performs similar as long as you forget about the price. So one might assume the noise of one zener can be as low as 0.02 ppm = 0.03 ppm / Sqrt(2)

Regards, Dieter
 

Offline serg-el

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Re: Ultra Low Noise Reference 2DW232, 2DW233, 2DW23x
« Reply #622 on: February 04, 2021, 09:51:47 pm »
If you looked closely at the figures, you might have noticed that the last measurements were taken with the ADVANTEST R6581.
From R6871E at 50 samples, the standard deviation is 0.51 μV.
 

Offline Kleinstein

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Re: Ultra Low Noise Reference 2DW232, 2DW233, 2DW23x
« Reply #623 on: February 04, 2021, 10:21:18 pm »
From the early parts of this thread, there are reports the a good sample of the 2DW233 can be even lower noise than the LTZ1000. In addition the direct measurement also adds some noise from the ADC. Even at 100 PLC the noise may be relevant here.  The R6581 does not seem to be so very low noise . It is still not bad and the ADC also has some good aspects when it comes to noise. However there is also 1 weak point.

With 30 Zener diodes to start with it should be possible to possible to build 2 references to compare.

 

Online dietert1

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Re: Ultra Low Noise Reference 2DW232, 2DW233, 2DW23x
« Reply #624 on: February 04, 2021, 10:59:37 pm »
Thanks, now i can see the 100 nV steps. Don't know the Advantest instruments well, but the DVM seems to be very stable over several hours. In the case of our two LTFLUs i am logging the difference voltage with a HP 3456A in the 100 mV range, at the same resolution of 100 nV. Recently i cleaned the fan of that DVM and it shifted it's zero adjustment by 0.7 uV (in Autozero mode).

Regards, Dieter
 


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