Ultra Precision Reference LTZ1000

[Awesome14]

He says he had an Electrical Engineer with 40 yrs experience look at it and was astounded at the results!

Hmm... only 40 years of experience? For my money, his imaginary friend would need at least 41 years.

My engineer is 78 years old and he is still doing engineering. Presumption is the greatest form of arrogance!

[Awesome14]

I would be astounded too, if it works.  I was almost going to buy one for fun, then I realized I had better use for the time & money.  I also asked what the load regulation was, and no answer from seller yet.

I think I'll stick to stuff I know works, and works well for a long, long time.  Like Buried Zener refs.

Let's have a look at someone who actually tried the device. eBay feddback: "Very Fast Shipping, 1hr warm-up on Agilent 34461A & D105 - 10.00000, Fantastic!"

That's not me saying it! It's someone I have no control over; someone I don't know. And the 732A IS within its calibration. I fear what I've done is to unintentionally trivialize the efforts  of others, by making a 2ppm standard that sells for 100.00. It's easier for some to maintain their faith in their own standards/references, by intentional and purposeful ignorance! The only means to find out the truth is to test the device. I have not had anyone tell me that the device is > 2ppm error, regardless of temperature.

I have the most data on this device, so I am qualified to speak. There is zero snake oil. I am an independent research scientist with 25 years experience. When university students my age were taking intro physics, I was enrolled in graduate-level physics classes. I don't design a product by trial and error, or by copying another product with minor changes. This is the holy grail! I must thank God for giving it to me, because I inspired the original aspects of the design. My scientific and mathematical background allowed me to understand the inspiration from a practical perspective.

Electricity doesn't lie! This is the dawn of a new era! But even if others might build the exact same device, it will not work like the ones we make. There is a counterintuitive secret that lurks within the device.

[Awesome14]

I would be astounded too, if it works.  I was almost going to buy one for fun, then I realized I had better use for the time & money.  I also asked what the load regulation was, and no answer from seller yet.

I think I'll stick to stuff I know works, and works well for a long, long time.  Like Buried Zener refs.

The D-105 IS a buried-zener ref.

[Awesome14]

I would be astounded too, if it works.  I was almost going to buy one for fun, then I realized I had better use for the time & money.  I also asked what the load regulation was, and no answer from seller yet.

The D-105 has a 17 ppm drop from 1mA to 10 mA load.

It's probably some cheap voltage reference chip in an epoxy package-- enough to not be fraudulent, but not sufficient for an ultra-precise reference.

Prejuduce! The device performs as stated: +- 2ppm from 16-26C. And it only gets better with age! If you want a 10VDC precision reference with an error < 2ppm, then you need the LTZ1000.

There is no mention of any calibration of the Fluke 732A the seller is using to set the references he sells.

We don't necessarily state what should be assumed of any legitimate source. The 732A is calibrated.

Unfortunately [and sadly], this is going to make everyone else selling a voltage standard look bad-- whether they are doing it right or not...

If our product makes the competition look bad, it isn't "our" fault. It's their fault for making an inferior product. Every criticism I've seem thus far is without merit, unsubstantiated and based purely on arrogant presumption!

To make a proper laboratory voltage reference you are going to have to use an LTZ1000(A), or a rather large statistical array of some other type of reference [with temperature compensation].

That's the way it used to be, before the D-105.

If it's just a "transfer standard",

just a transfer standard ... The Fluke 732B is a "transfer standard."

Since it is not explained what is in the box, I say: "Caveat Emptor" ["Buyer, beware!"]

If I was an amateur, I would explain what is in the box. I am an honest and honorable professional who is attempting to prove a point: calibration labs have long held electronic amateurs as  second-class customers, practically ignoring them, and doing nothing to accommodate issues specific and unique to amateurs. The D-105 is the device that can help set the amateurs free from commercial calibration labs; basically an "up yours" type of thing. At this stage of my life I am much more concerned with satisfaction than vastly increasing my wealth.

But if the price is too low for you, I'll jack it up a few hundred Dollars.

Given the amount of training and experience, coupled  to the years of work required to produce the D-105, it must be protected by trade-secret. Thus, we don't publish the design. I don't want professionals purchasing the product. That's why I sell it on eBay. I could get a much a higher price, but that's not why I embarked on this project. I evaluated whether or not technology and manufacturing had sufficiently advanced that the project was even possible.

I believed it was possible, and I was correct. Things change every day. Innovative thinking changes the world every day; some in  small ways, some in larger ways.  Protecting the value and usefullness of inferior or obsolete devices by denying the truth about new technology--in a baseless fashion--preserves ignorance. It isn't that much different from some--not all--Arabs who cling to ancient ways in the third millennium.

How would anyone know whether they like toilet paper until they've tried it. But to many in the middle east it's just diabolical western evil-on-a-roll, evil that can only spell the eventual downfall of the western world.

So, if anyone would "try" the D-105, I'm sure he would like it.

[Awesome14]

This might not exactly belong in this thread with LTZ1000a's (except to do a direct comparison about vrefs for general knowledge), but this is the seller's response when I asked about drift rates on his  ebay device.  I'm not even sure I can understand it.  It might be a pot attached to an LM317 for all I know. I think he's convinced himself its better than a 732a:

We do a burn-in to minimize drift. These units do not need to be run continuously like a Fluke 732A/B. So, the drift over time is not coherent. These units have a specified drift per first 1,000 hours of use (~10ppm, and much less for the second and subsequent 1,000 hours). They require roughly five minutes to settle to maximum accuracy. As long as the unit is not powered on for extremely long periods (250 hours or more), it should hold the standard indefinitely.

The stability is greater than the maximum error of the 732A. In the null setup photo, the unit drifted from +3uV to -4uV. -4uV was the maximum error in relation to the 732A. The 732A has a maximum error of 0.6ppm, which @ 10VDC is 6uV. So, the maximum error of the unit using the 732A as a reference is 10uV. We spec the unit @ +-75uV, because reference standards require integrity and reliability. We may change that spec when we have more experience with the units.

We have an electrical engineer with forty years experience, conducting R&D on special mock-ups of this device, and the results have been astounding. But for now I'm sticking with the original spec of +-75uV. But the temperature at calibration is marked on the each unit. If this temperature is observed, the accuracy is in excess of 10x the official spec. Our testing has shown that the units are unaffected by repeated power ups. The drift is in relation to cumulative hours of power-up

The D-105 is superior to the Fluke 732A in that the D-105 can be power cycled. Please keep in mind that the above prose are not a technical manual, but an email message; an email message that was edited for effect, and then taken out of the context of the thread it was a part of. it doesn't matter. Calibratory, LLC has succeeded where all others have failed! Say what you want, but electricity cannot lie.

[EEVblog]

Electricity doesn't lie! This is the dawn of a new era! But even if others might build the exact same device, it will not work like the ones we make. There is a counterintuitive secret that lurks within the device.

Oh dear   

[Awesome14]

1) "The 732A has a maximum error of 0.6ppm": How does the seller know the 732A has an uncertainty of 0.6ppm?

The spec on the 732A is <= 0.6ppm/month.

Where is the link to the PDF of the 732A's calibration certificate?

Suspicion is the device of a guilty mind.

If he only has one 732A/B voltage standard, how does he know that the voltage standard is not drifting off into the weeds?

By statistical probability that all the lab instruments will probably not drift off into the weeds suchwise that the problem would not be detected.

2) "the unit drifted from +3uV to -4uV":  That is HORRIBLE!

You can't be serious! That's 0.7ppm.

This CANNOT be useful for any kind of transfer reference.  A good reference needs to be rock-solid with less than 0.2ppm of peak-to-peak noise [0.1Hz to 10Hz or "1/f" noise] in order for it to be useful to transfer the calibration to a more stable reference, and the lower the 1/f noise, the better.

0.7ppm is great for our price.

3) What is the voltage reference inside the box?  Is he not saying because it would be embarrassing?

Did you try asking? It is the best 10VDC IC reference available.

Is it a voltage reference with a non-hermetic package?  What is the temperature coefficient [TempCo]?  Is the TempCo compensated?  What is the hysteresis of the part if it experiences radical temperature excursions during shipping?

Our experience has been that the device withstands shipping and storage in harsh environments, and associated shock, very well!

As I said before, Buyer Beware!  Don't waste your money on this unless the seller discloses what is in the "magic box"...!!!  [Just knowing the reference part number is good enough-- you can find out everything else you need to know from that].

-Ken

If you want to know something, ask.

[richiem]

Call me silly, but I decided to see what this D-105 can do. When it comes, I'll give it a go and report back. I've had good ideas in the past; some worked, some didn't, some were crazy, and some were just plain based on ignorance. I'm giving Awesome14 the benefit of the doubt, since the D-105 is a price I can live with, good or bad. At Tektronix, Monsanto, and other companies, I watched NIH at work, and some really great ideas got cold-shouldered. Stay tuned.

[rx8pilot]

I have a few notes to share.

I don't know anything about Awesome14 and only know a little about the D-105 from what I have read and seen pictures of. I am in the market for a DC reference and looked at this before the conversation started. I am not specifically looking for the bargain basement unit, but rather something that I can trust. Since I would like to have a few references to cross check I was hoping to find units that are affordable. For $100, there is very little risk in trying.

While I have neither the skill or the equipment to confirm the specs, I would have to trust the unit works. Thankfully there is an active group of people that love to test specs and have the means and skills to do so. While I am NOT a scientist, I have worked with many of them. A key part of the scientific community is cross checking claims. Any good scientist should welcome others to cross check for anything out of place and confirm the results are repeatable. I hear a very defensive conversation here where the scrutiny should be welcomed. There is also a "magic" claim that will always have people running away. There are claims that this is the holy grail of voltage references that overcomes the challenges that have vexxed any and all engineers that have attempted to tackle this level of precision and stability.

Awesome14, surely you can expect this community of engineers to pick your claims to the edge of death. The images that were posted show a construction that most of us would have last seen in the 7th grade. I work with far less precision circuits that absolutely require a well considered PCB layout for them to function well and have any sort of consistency from unit to unit.

I do not doubt your sincerity, integrity, or intelligence. I hope that this unit is proven to be what you claim - if so I will buy 4 of them. Let those with the questions and the curiosity verify everything you say. When/if they do maybe you can add that to the eBay listing and raise the price. Independent verification is far more powerful than anything you could possibly type yourself anywhere on the internet.

[Galaxyrise]

Perhaps we can take this to https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/calibratory-d-105-dc-precision-voltage-reference-standard/

I'm also making a home reference (or three), including with LTZ1000, and I'm quite happy something like the Geller references is available again.  I look forward to how it works for others, as I'm still quite a number of Saturday evenings away from having working, stable refs of my own.

[babysitter]

While I think the D-105 discussion doesn't belong here - it has its own thread - I want to see way more cross-comparison between amateurs like us! The D-105 although with its ugly construction is reported to survive shipping stress, so might be a possible subject of such cross-comparisons. My own LTZ1000A standard will visit Dr Frank again in the coming days. It was off for most (all) of the time, just recently put up my PC on its own desk after moving so my electronics desk just got useable again. So this time we will see the "cold" effects. After that, I think it will get more runtime until next comparison at Franks...


Edit: Emphasis, colouring and text size added afterwards.

[MrAl]

Hi,

Interesting thread.

It's not that difficult to build your own oven.  A small light bulb or even a power resistor for the heater, and an analog op amp based circuit similar to a soldering iron station control circuit.
The housing has to be well insulated, perhaps double insulated, with a thermally conducting shield between insulation layers.  Good for crystals or voltage refs.

i got one of the 399 type references for $1 on a store sale a long time ago, but i should have purchased more than one unit at the time.   I didnt realize they would go up in price so much back 20 years ago.

[quarks]

If there are any comments on D-105 DC, please post in the other thread!!!
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/calibratory-d-105-dc-precision-voltage-reference-standard/

Many thanks

quarks

[Edwin G. Pettis]

For some reason, I have not been receiving notification of further comments on this thread (or any others) for several months, be that as it may, I have been busy and have not taken the time to check in here very often, partially due to manufacturing resistors and other duties.

In reply to Andreas' assertion (Nov. 8 &9 posts) that I have not provided any pricing.....I do not recall him asking for any pricing nor if I would provide samples to him.  Anyone on this forum who has taken the time to contact me and ask about pricing or any other information, I have replied to.  I have not seen any other manufacturer posting pricing here, however, if it will be of any help, here are some current examples of resistors being used in the LTZ1000A circuitry:

Resistors are Ultrohm style 805 (physically equivalent to Rho 8e16), ±0.1%, 0 ±3PPM/°C, -55°C - +125°C:

Value    1-9       11-24
120?   $6.85    $5.14
1K        $6.34    $4.76
10K      $7.28    $5.46
12.5K   $7.43    $5.57
70K      $8.25    $6.19

Regards,

Edwin

[Andreas]

Value    1-9       11-24
120?   $6.85    $5.14
1K        $6.34    $4.76
10K      $7.28    $5.46
12.5K   $7.43    $5.57
70K      $8.25    $6.19

Regards,

Edwin

Hello Edwin,

pricing sounds reasonable to me.
I guess the 12K resistor (for the friends of LTZ1000)
would be in the same region as the 10 and 12.5K resistor.
What would be the shipping costs to germany?
E.g. for 5 sets with 120R, 1K, 12.5K, 70K + 70K

In my case I would prefer shipping by a mail order firm who
does all that customs handling (import tax 19%). (UPS? / DHL?)

With best regards

Andreas

[babysitter]

Thread recovered !

[Edwin G. Pettis]

Hi Andreas,

Yes, that is 10-24 in quantity.  I have not shipped to the EU before, I understand there are a lot of nasty fees (tax in disguise) and tax (VAT), I can ship by USPS first class or priority international mail, Fedex or UPS, I've been told that there can be delays depending on which country it is going to.  I am flexible in the shipping arrangements as possible.

You are correct, there would be minor differences in the pricing for slightly different values, such as a 12K would be about $7.35.

I would suggest contacting me through the more private e-mail from the regular forum, that seems to work a bit faster, for more details.

[babysitter]

Regarding shipping: On the EU side, you can expect the following tolls, taxes and fees:

• 0€ extra fees with a value below 22€,
• 19% tax (EUSt) at a value between 22 and 120€ and
• 19% EUSt tax plus toll plus customs fees above 120€ value. Value includes shipping cost plus object value. Got

Shipments from USA both at work and at home came via (by popularity)

• FedEx,
• UPS and
• USPS ,
  

zero trouble during shipping.

Sicne a few months, however, they look for a CE mark and product safety - close to impossible to import devices without CE mark, I can use the exemption for radio amateurs as you are certified to take care of the necessary actions in your own responsibility.

For electrical components there is a exemption and a position paper from ZVEI in germany that might help the local guys to understand that thery are exempted. Don't try to go the chinese way and declare that it is a gift or low value article for 5$.

For international shipments with a travelling transfer standard going a round trip there are ways to reclaim tax and fees on return - did something like that once with a germany-turkey-germany round trip.

[bingo600]

Regarding shipping: On the EU side, you can expect the following tolls, taxes and fees:

• 0€ extra fees with a value below 22€,
• 19% tax (EUSt) at a value between 22 and 120€ and
• 19% EUSt tax plus toll plus customs fees above 120€ value. Value includes shipping cost plus object value. Got

That limit would be "below" 80DKK (~10€) for DK , and 25%VAT + a €20 VAT handling fee to DK-Mail if above the  limit

/Bingo

[Dr. Frank]

Regarding shipping: On the EU side, you can expect the following tolls, taxes and fees:

• 0€ extra fees with a value below 22€,
• 19% tax (EUSt) at a value between 22 and 120€ and
• 19% EUSt tax plus toll plus customs fees above 120€ value. Value includes shipping cost plus object value. Got

Shipments from USA both at work and at home came via (by popularity)

• FedEx,
• UPS and
• USPS ,
  

zero trouble during shipping.

Sicne a few months, however, they look for a CE mark and product safety - close to impossible to import devices without CE mark, I can use the exemption for radio amateurs as you are certified to take care of the necessary actions in your own responsibility.

For electrical components there is a exemption and a position paper from ZVEI in germany that might help the local guys to understand that thery are exempted. Don't try to go the chinese way and declare that it is a gift or low value article for 5$.

For international shipments with a travelling transfer standard going a round trip there are ways to reclaim tax and fees on return - did something like that once with a germany-turkey-germany round trip.

What I found about CE marking, all electronic parts are excluded (print that on each 0402 resistor..) and only "low voltage devices" running at >50V need this mark.

Frank

[quarks]

It is off topic, but I can share some information about the CE Mark, because I tried to buy and failed to import some old reference gear
like a LOM-510A (from robrenz) or a ESI 242D (back in 2013, when I did my research on my resistance measurement thread
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/help-wanted-low-and-high-ohm-measuremet/msg169139/#msg169139 )

I was informed by the German custom about the need to have a CE Mark if I want to import any gear that has as connector/cable to be connected to mains (in Germany 230VAC). They also adviced me to contact the regional council (Regierungspräsidium) if I have any questions.

I followed this advice before I bought the gear I wanted.

Here is what was replied to me (sorry if the translation is bad):

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Products that are provided as part of a business process on the market, displayed or used for the first time, subject to the Product Safety Act (ProdSG). (ProdSG, § 1, para. 1).
Also import for personal use will be considered as a business activity to provide products on the market.

Excluded from the Product Safety Act are products that
1) are antiques,
2.) prior to their use or repair Act must be reprocessed if the economic operator to those to whom they are issued, gives adequate notification. (ProdSG, § 1, Section 2, 1 to 2).
The economic operator would be in the specific case of the seller; the person to whom the products are made, the importer would be (you =).
In these cases, it is possible to prove that the products meet certain minimum requirements.

As far as the above derogation is not satisfied, must to ensure that the product meets the requirements for the placing on the market within the meaning of ProdSG, as in ProdSG called §3 and possibly §6.
Accordingly, subject to electrical appliances with power acc ProdSG, Section 3, Paragraph 1 of the "Regulation on the marketing of electrical equipment designed for use within certain voltage limits - (1 GPSGV)"... This requires that devices that fall under this Regulation shall be equipped with a CE mark (1 GPSGV, §3).
The requirements for the installation of a CE mark are set out in Directive 2006/95 / EC (Low Voltage Directive).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I also called and tried to explain that I only want to buy 30+ years old gear for privat and educational purpose.
The short answer was "no way", so I gave up.

[acbern]

I read this with great interest, as I am importing a lot of test gear from the US for my personal use, and never had an issue in the customs office, and so this sounded scary initially. So I looked up the ProdSG in German, and it seems to me it is sufficient to certify, it is for repair and/or refurbishment.

Excempt from CE marking is:
"gebrauchte Produkte, die vor ihrer Verwendung instand gesetzt oder wiederaufgearbeitet werden müssen, sofern der Wirtschaftsakteur denjenigen, an den sie abgegeben werden, darüber ausreichend unterrichtet"

As you have translated, but I just did not get it in the english wording. Sorry for the German, but I tinks those who are potentially affected understand it, so helps. It does not even require repair, "aufgearbeitet" (to refurbish) is a wide field, it may also mean calibrate and adjust or whatever. So I would not accept this abitray judgement of the local guy, bring this up to the local head of the department, this was not lawfull.
In German, sorry: es handelt sich um einen Zoll-Verwaltungsakt, gegen den man zumindest Einspruch einlegen kann. Ggf. auch klagen, (wenn man viel Zeit hat. Der Einspruch geht schneller, und den entscheiden meistens Leute die mehr Ahnung haben und dann sollte es das normalerweise gewesen sein).

[splin]

Bureaucrats! So if you sent a piece of pre 'CE' test gear back to a foreign manufacturer for calibration it wouldn't be allowed back into the country?

What about equipment imported from another EU country? I don't believe there are many checks when driving across borders within the EU.

Is it just Germany taking this stance, over-zealously appyling EU CE regulations or can we expect this madness to spread across all EU states?

It's enough to make you despair; I'm currently reading a book 'In The Interests Of Safety: The Absurd Rules That Blight Our Lives' which includes the absurd example of the snaps having to be removed from all the Christmas crackers in a consignment being sent to troops in the Falkland Islands, because explosives are not permitted on Royal Air Force planes! 

[acbern]

Still off topic (LTZ1000) here:
In principle it applies to all imports to the EU. And within the EU, you can freely ship it (unless it is a controlled item such as military electronics or so, we normally dont own these).
I would think that the specific case was an exception, I had to deal with many guys from customs over many years, at the local customs office and through freight companies like fedex, and I only buy used stuff, never been a problem.

[quarks]

I read this with great interest, as I am importing a lot of test gear from the US for my personal use, and never had an issue in the customs office, and so this sounded scary initially. So I looked up the ProdSG in German, and it seems to me it is sufficient to certify, it is for repair and/or refurbishment.

Excempt from CE marking is:
"gebrauchte Produkte, die vor ihrer Verwendung instand gesetzt oder wiederaufgearbeitet werden müssen, sofern der Wirtschaftsakteur denjenigen, an den sie abgegeben werden, darüber ausreichend unterrichtet"

As you have translated, but I just did not get it in the english wording. Sorry for the German, but I tinks those who are potentially affected understand it, so helps. It does not even require repair, "aufgearbeitet" (to refurbish) is a wide field, it may also mean calibrate and adjust or whatever. So I would not accept this abitray judgement of the local guy, bring this up to the local head of the department, this was not lawfull.
In German, sorry: es handelt sich um einen Zoll-Verwaltungsakt, gegen den man zumindest Einspruch einlegen kann. Ggf. auch klagen, (wenn man viel Zeit hat. Der Einspruch geht schneller, und den entscheiden meistens Leute die mehr Ahnung haben und dann sollte es das normalerweise gewesen sein).

As stated, I even had a personal discussion about that with no luck and just gave up.

In your own case, if your custom official in charge does not look/care, then you are just lucky.
But if they care, they will/can send the gear in question to an official place to have it checked for CE conformity and you will have to pay for shipping and the test if you want to have the gear in your hands. If you do not agree, you can of course try to fight against this "Zoll-Verwaltungsakt" but that is not worth it (at least for me).