Author Topic: Metrology Meeting in Stuttgart/Germany (Read 70905 times)

hwj-d · « **Reply #50 on:** May 14, 2019, 04:20:05 pm »

Hello branadic,

is it possible to set this topic on the schedule/agenda?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/eu-calclub/msg2410806/#msg2410806

Except a verbal note, a explicit speech is certainly not necessary, but it would be good to have a list in which interested members can register.

Thanks,
H.-W.

The Soulman · « **Reply #51 on:** May 14, 2019, 08:53:25 pm »

Quote from: try on May 14, 2019, 03:55:37 pm

Hello Soulman,

Quote from: The Soulman on May 12, 2019, 05:21:04 pm
Sadly I'm not able to come, but I still have (all diy) a dual 10V voltage reference and two resistor boxes that needs calibration.
Anyone willing to take them to the meeting and make some measurements?

have you seen that posting from cat87 who is coming from your country?
Did you contact him already?
Otherwise, what dimensions does your stuff have?
I just want to make sure it will fit into the car of a fellow voltnut I'll go with.
Being located in Hannover you would have to get your gear to me.
There is an option to drop it off behind the border not too far away from Venlo if that fits.

Regards
try

I have not contacted cat87 but mailing the stuff to Hannover shouldn't be prohibitive as it are three tiny units
as seen on the a4 sheet of paper:

More info to come here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/wanted-someone-(preferably-in-nl)-that-can-measure-2-5-v-dc-within-100ppm/25/

try · « **Reply #52 on:** May 15, 2019, 07:44:03 pm »

Hello soulman,

I'll send you a private message with all necessary information.

Regards
try

YetAnotherTechie · « **Reply #53 on:** May 17, 2019, 04:49:03 pm »

Hello,

Is there any group wisdom about the influence of airport x-ray on your equipment? Say having your keithley 2001 x-rayd 6 times in one trip?

Would that kind of exposure make having your instrument checked at the meeting pointless if you have to get there by plane?

Thank you.

branadic · « **Reply #54 on:** May 18, 2019, 08:58:22 am »

One week left to register for the event.

-branadic-

branadic · « **Reply #55 on:** May 19, 2019, 03:34:37 pm »

Beside the equipment you all bring along, please don't forget to put some test leads in your pocket. Would also be great if someone could bring some golden copper spade lugs to the meeting. I wasn't lucky to find some good ones by now.

None of you registered things for the flea market by now, does this mean none of you has something to sell or exchange?
I can bring some of those 2DW232 for sharing but also some of the multi contact LS4 red and black. If someone has good quality cable for sale don't hesitate to bring it with you.

-branadic-

HighVoltage · « **Reply #56 on:** May 19, 2019, 03:57:56 pm »

Quote from: branadic on May 19, 2019, 03:34:37 pm

None of you registered things for the flea market by now, does this mean none of you has something to sell or exchange?

-branadic-

May be I will bring some resistors and may be I can find other things. I will have a look before I leave.

hwj-d · « **Reply #57 on:** May 19, 2019, 07:30:00 pm »

Quote from: branadic on May 19, 2019, 03:34:37 pm

Beside the equipment you all bring along, please don't forget to put some test leads in your pocket. Would also be great if someone could bring some golden copper spade lugs to the meeting. I wasn't lucky to find some good ones by now.

None of you registered things for the flea market by now, does this mean none of you has something to sell or exchange?
I can bring some of those 2DW232 for sharing but also some of the multi contact LS4 red and black. If someone has good quality cable for sale don't hesitate to bring it with you.

-branadic-

These things are rare, but AP sells them in his online shop. Maybe he can bring some of these items?

Andreas · « **Reply #58 on:** May 20, 2019, 08:32:12 pm »

Quote from: HighVoltage on May 19, 2019, 03:57:56 pm

May be I will bring some resistors and may be I can find other things. I will have a look before I leave.

Hello,

perhaps some of the Geller-Labs black edition PCBs could be of interest for some volt-nuts.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/geller-labs-svr-lars-walenius-black-edition-with-587lq/msg2219955/#msg2219955

with best regards

Andreas

BU508A · « **Reply #59 on:** May 21, 2019, 12:02:28 pm »

Quote from: branadic on May 19, 2019, 03:34:37 pm

None of you registered things for the flea market by now, does this mean none of you has something to sell or exchange?

I have some things which I can bring, e.g. two PCB for a modern chopper amp for the Fluke 3330B,
some LM387, some resistors which I do not have much information about them but they seem to be selected for matching tempcos.
AD588BD, AD587LN ....

Will pack some things this evening so I can grab them when I'm off to Stuttgart.

branadic · « **Reply #60 on:** May 21, 2019, 12:34:47 pm »

Here is an updated list of the equipment from registered attendees.

-branadic-

branadic · « **Reply #61 on:** May 21, 2019, 02:39:00 pm »

Today I got confirmation of another guest present on the event. Let yourself be surprised.

-branadic-

The Soulman · « **Reply #62 on:** May 21, 2019, 02:53:35 pm »

~~Anyone willing to receive a small package by mail from me and take it to the meeting?~~

Thank you all for your responses, dieter1 is the "lucky" one.

ScoobyDoo · « **Reply #63 on:** May 22, 2019, 06:46:46 pm »

Hello Branadic - do you have an idea about uncertainty range and absolute value of these DC Voltage Reference Standards and Resistor Standards ... - It would be nice that there is an overview so that attendees can select the appropriate source according to their needs ... ?

Thanks !

Best regards
ScoobyDoo

branadic · « **Reply #64 on:** May 23, 2019, 06:56:34 am »

No I don't and I don't want to open this rabbit hole as it only produces work for me. But I'm sure there is something for everyone willing to join the meeting.

-branadic-

e61_phil · « **Reply #65 on:** May 23, 2019, 08:38:16 am »

Quote from: ScoobyDoo on May 22, 2019, 06:46:46 pm

Hello Branadic - do you have an idea about uncertainty range and absolute value of these DC Voltage Reference Standards and Resistor Standards ... - It would be nice that there is an overview so that attendees can select the appropriate source according to their needs ... ?

For most of the private stuff it should be hard to determine a real uncertainty. And one shouldn't expect to much, I think. A standard calibrated 3458A gives roughly:
sqrt( 8.05ppm^2 + 3ppm^2 ) = 8.6ppm for 10V everything else is worse.

The 3ppm are already one of the lower uncertainties I saw on KS calibration certificates.

If you are dreaming of 1ppm traceable accuracy for 10V, there are very few things which can reach that level of uncertainty.

dietert1 · « **Reply #66 on:** May 23, 2019, 03:59:28 pm »

I remember ap wrote he can bring a 1ppm voltage standard. He is running a business making voltage standards. So there will probably be a mixture of private and professional.

When you read Wikipedia about Josephson voltage standards, they mention a traveling Josephson standard with typical variations of 1 ppb in comparisons at national metric institutes. And they mention zeners as transfer standards that reach about 10 ppb. As i don't know any better, i understand those should be LTZ1000 based standards - which will be present at the meeting. Technology does not appear to be the limit.

By the way, i found a website of "supracon" in Jena who appear to be advertising their Josephson voltage standard. Maybe they should get an invitation as well.

Regards, Dieter

e61_phil · « **Reply #67 on:** May 23, 2019, 04:59:36 pm »

Quote from: dietert1 on May 23, 2019, 03:59:28 pm

I remember ap wrote he can bring a 1ppm voltage standard. He is running a business making voltage standards. So there will probably be a mixture of private and professional.

When you read Wikipedia about Josephson voltage standards, they mention a traveling Josephson standard with typical variations of 1 ppb in comparisons at national metric institutes. And they mention zeners as transfer standards that reach about 10 ppb. As i don't know any better, i understand those should be LTZ1000 based standards - which will be present at the meeting. Technology does not appear to be the limit.

By the way, i found a website of "supracon" in Jena who appear to be advertising their Josephson voltage standard. Maybe they should get an invitation as well.

Regards, Dieter

Please have a look at the noise of a typical LTZ1000, yearly drift and transfer specs of the high end meters. After that think again about 0.01ppm transfers .

TiN · « **Reply #68 on:** May 23, 2019, 05:03:35 pm »

If all goes well, I'll have 0.1ppm absolute transfer on Monday. Wonder how many days will it preserve till going out

e61_phil · « **Reply #69 on:** May 23, 2019, 06:47:04 pm »

Quote from: TiN on May 23, 2019, 05:03:35 pm

If all goes well, I'll have 0.1ppm absolute transfer on Monday. Wonder how many days will it preserve till going out

That sounds very interesting! Could you tell more about the DUT, the setup and the standard which achieves such low uncertainties?

dietert1 · « **Reply #70 on:** May 23, 2019, 07:03:12 pm »

Until learning better, i'd rather assume the wikipedia info is more or less correct. Maybe multiple/selected zener diodes can achieve that goal. I found this report of 1991:
https://ws680.nist.gov/publication/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=23726
Appearently the zener standard was good for 40 ppb and they achieved 15 ppb uncertainty by repeated comparisons. Interesting: Over a period of roughly one year their zener standard exhibited a constant linear drift that could be subtracted and that did not destroy the transfer, even when travelling a lot.

Regards, Dieter

Andreas · « **Reply #71 on:** May 24, 2019, 09:45:28 pm »

Quote from: dietert1 on May 23, 2019, 07:03:12 pm

Until learning better, i'd rather assume the wikipedia info is more or less correct. Maybe multiple/selected zener diodes can achieve that goal. I found this report of 1991:
https://ws680.nist.gov/publication/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=23726
Appearently the zener standard was good for 40 ppb and they achieved 15 ppb uncertainty by repeated comparisons. Interesting: Over a period of roughly one year their zener standard exhibited a constant linear drift that could be subtracted and that did not destroy the transfer, even when travelling a lot.

Regards, Dieter

Hello,

Its not so easy:

4 Wavetek/Datron zeners. (each probably costing around the same as a Fluke 732B). And travelling by "hand" or "over night".
But usually in metrology you do not use a (one sigma) standard deviation as uncertainity.
So perhaps there is also further "beautifying" in the paper.

In a standard lab you also have controlled humidity and not only temperature.
At home you have "seasonal changes" due to humidity changes.
I do not see linear ageing drifts in my measurements.
And of course each zener has also some popcorn noise besides 1/f noise.
You have to select between some devices to get a really good one.

By the way we should all switch off the mobile phones/WIFI/BLUETOOTH near the calibration area.

And: last chance to register for the event.

with best regards

Andreas

dietert1 · « **Reply #72 on:** May 25, 2019, 07:46:33 am »

Yes i know, 1 ppm or lower is difficult to achieve for a 10 V zener standard.
Anyway, everybody should think about their "prior knowledge", even if it's not an official certificate and even if they don't know any better than 30 ppm. As far as i understand, when you have enough comparisons, you can apply kind of a "Maxwell's demon" to separate noise from results. That seems to be adopted practice in metrology.

Regards, Dieter

HighVoltage · « **Reply #73 on:** May 25, 2019, 08:41:17 am »

I will be arriving on the 1st from Nürnberg area and should be there around 10:00 AM, I guess.
Then the 3458A will need a few hours to warmup.

My hotel is booked from the 1st to the 2nd of June so we can stay as long as we want in the evening.

The Soulman · « **Reply #74 on:** May 25, 2019, 10:47:55 am »

Here is my stuff that dieter1 will bring:

*Dual (lt1021-dmh10) 10V voltage reference.
*Resistor box 1, 100R, 1K, 10K, 99k7 (all ESI resistors) cable included for force connection, the 99k7 is a bit unknown my (low-res..) meters are a bit divided over that one although the resistor is very stable (not damaged just a oddball value)
*Resistor box 2, 1M, 9M, 90M 0,1%

Also included are the three papers to write down your readings, I expect them to be full at the end of the day.

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Author Topic: Metrology Meeting in Stuttgart/Germany (Read 70905 times)

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