Author Topic: Welectron calibration services  (Read 3264 times)

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Offline FurnaTopic starter

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Welectron calibration services
« on: February 16, 2024, 10:54:11 am »
Hello,

As an hobbist, I am on the market for a new handheld DMM and I am inclined for a Brymen BM869s.
As a German resident, I would say the vendor is obviously Welectron.
Does anyone know what should I expect from their calibration services?
Do they also adjutst the offsets on the device, or just produce a certificate?
What is their reference?
Anyone already used their services? Ready to share the experience?

Links to documentation/explanations to the "Art of calibration", ISO and DAkkS are also very apreciated.
Thanks.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2024, 03:56:00 pm by Furna »
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Offline thephil

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Re: Welectron calibration services
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2024, 04:07:47 pm »
I have bought stuff from them and have nothing to complain about – good price, good packaging, quick delivery. I have not used their calibration service, but I think the best way to find out what they offer is asking them.
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Offline Veteran68

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Re: Welectron calibration services
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2024, 08:10:56 pm »
Heck I'm in the US and I order Brymen products from Welectron, since Brymen doesn't market directly in the US. In my experience they've been a great supplier.

Haven't used their calibration services, as that typically wouldn't be feasible from the US, but just given their overall credibility record I would expect them to do a good job.
 

Offline exe

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Re: Welectron calibration services
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2024, 09:04:20 pm »
I'm jealous. A few years ago I was trying to find a calibration service for my K2000 in NL. The only option I could find is to ship it to Germany, as our services don't work with individuals, and are not shy to charge.
 

Offline Veteran68

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Re: Welectron calibration services
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2024, 09:41:43 pm »
Yeah I have local calibration services supplier that will take individual orders, and it's only a 20 minute drive. But they quoted over 2x what my used Agilent 34401A cost me. I decided against since it's not used for professional/production work, and instead just compared it against several low-cost sources, a DMMCheck Plus, and a new 6.5 digit Siglent that was still in calibration. Good enough for me.
 

Offline FurnaTopic starter

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Re: Welectron calibration services
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2024, 10:54:09 pm »
This will be my first decent DMM; I would also go for a bench DMM but I have no space.
Currently I have no other references ... if I just buy the DMM without calibration and it arrives out of specification, I would have no way to find it out and send it back.

I have to start to build some trust; a DMMCheck Plus and a calibrated Siglent 6.5 digits would also work for me but are a dream for me at the moment.
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Offline alm

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Re: Welectron calibration services
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2024, 11:08:16 pm »
A brand new DMM from a reputable brand should be in spec otherwise it's defective. It depends on the application if this is sufficient. For some jobs you need more confidence and paperwork than "it should be in spec". If anything, calibration after a couple of years would be more useful. I remember some discussion of Siglent bench DMMs that are drifting quite a lot the first year or so and requiring adjustment to be brought back in spec. But for a 4.5 digit handheld I wouldn't expect this to be a problem. I expect those (from reputable brands) to basically stay in spec for life. So for hobby use I would not bother calibrating them.

It basically depends on what are the consequences if a meter is slightly off? There are certainly jobs where a measurement that is 0.1% off could cost a lot of money or even human life. In those cases spending a few  hundred euros per year on calibration is an obvious choice.

Offline J-R

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Re: Welectron calibration services
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2024, 02:19:43 am »
I purchased a bench DMM from Welectron about a year ago with an included ISO calibration.  From the paperwork, it seems they contracted Distrelect, who in turn contracted Intertek for the actual calibration.

Yes, you should contact Welectron to discuss the specifics about what happens if a DMM fails a subsequent calibration (after purchase).  It may be more for adjustment, it may not be.

There is quite a bit of info on the forums about the BM869s and its performance.  For general use probably just leverage Ohm's law to do sanity checks.  If something doesn't make sense then spring for more, such as a reference or a calibration.

Personally, I say if you're in the metrology forum board, then perhaps you need to make room for a bench DMM after all.  Better stability/accuracy/precision, 4-wire resistance measurements, etc.
 

Offline tatel

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Re: Welectron calibration services
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2024, 08:01:28 am »
IIRC, fellow forum member Martin72 said they not just calibrated but also adjusted their Brymen. However it looks Martin72 would be kind of a big customer... so perhaps YMMV. Best thing to do is ask them

Anyway you can purchase it with calibration certificate for some extra money.

Please keep us informed. I have local cal lab willing to calibrate my Brymen for less money than welectron, and no shipping to Germany would be needed, but this local lab doesn't adjust it.
 

Offline bastl_r

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Re: Welectron calibration services
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2024, 01:49:39 pm »
Hi
Why do you not trust the adjustment of this brandnew instrument?
My opinion is that the accuracy ist the same as with a calibratoncertificate.
Calibration is only an extra check for verifying the specs with no more adjustment.

Where is your location in Germany?
I has a Prema 5017 wich is very close to its one year specs. My location is 7113X near Stuttgart.

Regards
« Last Edit: February 17, 2024, 01:51:51 pm by bastl_r »
 

Offline FurnaTopic starter

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Re: Welectron calibration services
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2024, 06:23:06 pm »
Hi
Why do you not trust the adjustment of this brandnew instrument?
Because I have no other instrument to verify it is in spec ... if it arrives out of specs I tend to consider it faulty and I would like to have a free adjustment or a replacement.
I am paying for a new DMM in working conditions ...
Quote
My opinion is that the accuracy ist the same as with a calibratoncertificate.
Calibration is only an extra check for verifying the specs with no more adjustment.
Technically you are right; calibration deliverable is just the certificate telling you how much is the deviation from a trustworthy reference.
Anyway instruments as BM869s are very easy to adjust ... hence my doubt: do Welectron also offers adjustment services?
Quote
Where is your location in Germany?
I leave nearby Munich ...
Quote
I has a Prema 5017 wich is very close to its one year specs. My location is 7113X near Stuttgart.
Uhm what do you mean "is very close to its one year *specs*" ?

Anyway I emailed them asking for more details; will update the thread as soon as I have an answer.
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Offline bastl_r

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Re: Welectron calibration services
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2024, 06:53:22 pm »
Uhm what do you mean "is very close to its one year *specs*" ?


Look there
https://ohh.de/5017.htm
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Offline FurnaTopic starter

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Re: Welectron calibration services
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2024, 06:57:49 pm »
I purchased a bench DMM from Welectron about a year ago with an included ISO calibration.  From the paperwork, it seems they contracted Distrelect, who in turn contracted Intertek for the actual calibration.
Precious information. Thank you!!
Quote
Yes, you should contact Welectron to discuss the specifics about what happens if a DMM fails a subsequent calibration (after purchase).  It may be more for adjustment, it may not be.
I emailed them ...
Quote
There is quite a bit of info on the forums about the BM869s and its performance.  For general use probably just leverage Ohm's law to do sanity checks.  If something doesn't make sense then spring for more, such as a reference or a calibration.
I have been reading the forums; this is how I started to think about BM869s ... Ohm's law check works if at least 2 measurements are correct; what if my power supply is not calibrated? Again, I must start to build trust from somewhere. A reference could be a good starting point and I am aware of DMMCheck Plus but, beside it's cost that at the moment I cannot afford, it is out of stock at Welectron (I do not want to order oversea).
Quote
Personally, I say if you're in the metrology forum board, then perhaps you need to make room for a bench DMM after all.  Better stability/accuracy/precision, 4-wire resistance measurements, etc.
I am in the metrology forum because I thought it the best place to ask an opinin/question about a company that offers metrology services ... it is defintely too early for a bench DMM even if I can dream of it .. and a signal generator ... and an oscilloscope ...
Thanks again for the precious information regarding the certificate of your bench DMM.
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Offline FurnaTopic starter

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Re: Welectron calibration services
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2024, 07:03:52 pm »
IIRC, fellow forum member Martin72 said they not just calibrated but also adjusted their Brymen. However it looks Martin72 would be kind of a big customer... so perhaps YMMV. Best thing to do is ask them
I have been reading for a while before asking ... I didn't find the post you are referring to.
Quote
Anyway you can purchase it with calibration certificate for some extra money.
... a little bit more than "some extra" ... anyway that is the idea
Quote
Please keep us informed. I have local cal lab willing to calibrate my Brymen for less money than welectron, and no shipping to Germany would be needed, but this local lab doesn't adjust it.
I emailed them; will update the thread.
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Offline tatel

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Re: Welectron calibration services
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2024, 08:07:27 pm »
 

Offline thephil

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Re: Welectron calibration services
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2024, 08:14:55 pm »
If you are in the Munich area, it should be really easy to find someone nearby who has a new or calibrated multimeter to compare yours to. So I guess I wouldn't spend any money on a cal certificate for a brand new multimeter for hobby use. In a pinch, I could help you out (I have a bunch of multimeters), but I'm located between Regensburg and Straubing, and I'm sure you'll find several options in and around Munich.
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Offline J-R

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Re: Welectron calibration services
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2024, 05:57:50 am »
Slightly off topic and nosey, but are you needing to meet some regulatory requirement for a calibrated DMM?  If not, paying for calibrations on a Brymen seems like a waste of hard-earned-money especially if you're dreaming of a scope and function gen.

For a tight budget, maybe the BM867s or BM785 instead?

The DMMCheck Plus also seems like a poor value in this situation.  The Mini Metrology Lab (or similar projects) could be of interest: https://www.conradhoffman.com/mini_metro_lab.html

Also, I'll maintain you can still do some good sanity checking just using Ohm's law along with different equipment/functions/ranges/passives.
 
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Offline FurnaTopic starter

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Re: Welectron calibration services
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2024, 05:39:14 pm »
I received (yesterday) the answer from Welectron:

"If you have a Brymen device calibrated, it will also be adjusted by the calibration laboratory. "

Sounds promising ...
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Offline Haenk

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Re: Welectron calibration services
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2024, 03:57:20 pm »
This will be my first decent DMM; I would also go for a bench DMM but I have no space.
Currently I have no other references ... if I just buy the DMM without calibration and it arrives out of specification, I would have no way to find it out and send it back.

I have to start to build some trust; a DMMCheck Plus and a calibrated Siglent 6.5 digits would also work for me but are a dream for me at the moment.

The Brymen are factory calibrated, so actually nothing to worry about. At least mine seems to be bang on (as far as I can tell).
IMHO you only need an official calibration certificate if required by your customers, wasted money for personal use.
 

Offline mendip_discovery

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Re: Welectron calibration services
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2024, 04:47:09 pm »
The Brymen are factory calibrated, so actually nothing to worry about. At least mine seems to be bang on (as far as I can tell).
IMHO you only need an official calibration certificate if required by your customers, wasted money for personal use.

Personally, I agree. But I can cheat if I want to.

Though its nice to know how good your kit is even from the start as the years go by you can use this data to get an idea of drift, even at 3.5 digits.


Motorcyclist, Nerd, and I work in a Calibration Lab :-)
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So everyone is clear, Calibration = Taking Measurement against a known source, Verification = Checking Calibration against Specification, Adjustment = Adjusting the unit to be within specifications.
 
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Offline RolandK

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Re: Welectron calibration services
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2024, 08:18:34 pm »
There is really no need to calibrate a factory calibrated new multimeter for hobby use.
The main reason for calibration certificates are for commercial use where you must prove that the things you sell fulfils the law requirements.

You cant compensate missing experience by a certificate. For hobby use until you have a lot of experience and deal with circuits which require less than 0.5% accuracy measurements, you only waste money for the calibration.

Better check here on eevblog whether the model you want to purchase has a well known history (keeps calibration for years, no failures) or a bad reputation. And keep away from cheap shit and the newest hype.

Good meters stay within their 1 year specificaton for much longer. Just check after some years at school, university or at your employee against a calibrated one with 10 times better accuracy, specifically at the highest and lowest ranges. Most of my very old meters had only drifted about 10 to 20 digits. Even my hungchang 6060 from arround 1983 was only once calibrated ca. 1990 and is within 10 digits of 2000.
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Online 2N3055

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Re: Welectron calibration services
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2024, 08:41:52 pm »
It makes no sense to calibrate and/or adjust it before purchase.
Brymen is quality manufacturer and it will come adjusted to better than spec.

What makes sense is to send it in for calibration/adjustment after few years.
New meter will drift a bit in beginning and after a year or two is time where it might need a bit of "tune up".
After that it will stay stable for years to come.

Also you send it in if you are suspecting you damaged it and want to make sure.

When purchased new, it is only for paperwork in formal environments...

For that money, instead, buy aditional ProbeMaster probes and accesories and enjoy...
 
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Offline Veteran68

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Re: Welectron calibration services
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2024, 10:33:58 pm »
It makes no sense to calibrate and/or adjust it before purchase.
Brymen is quality manufacturer and it will come adjusted to better than spec.

What makes sense is to send it in for calibration/adjustment after few years.
New meter will drift a bit in beginning and after a year or two is time where it might need a bit of "tune up".
After that it will stay stable for years to come.

Also you send it in if you are suspecting you damaged it and want to make sure.

When purchased new, it is only for paperwork in formal environments...

For that money, instead, buy aditional ProbeMaster probes and accesories and enjoy...

Agree 100%
 
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Offline J-R

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Re: Welectron calibration services
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2024, 02:20:44 am »
Of course the Brymen factory calibration doesn't include the calibration data, so a second calibration at purchase can have some value to certain buyers.

In the OP's case, it seems the talking points are still "hobbyist" and "budget", so in that context paying for the calibration seems hard to justify without further information stating a requirement.

The BM869s has been shown to be OK from the factory, but drifts over time and can have a poor tempco.

More good information about all that in these threads:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/bymen-bm869-measurement-of-dcv-linearity/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/brymen-bm869-and-bm867-batch-calibration-check/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/brand-new-bm869s-calibration/
 
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Offline FurnaTopic starter

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Re: Welectron calibration services
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2024, 03:52:39 pm »
I ordered the Brymen BM869s with the ISO calibration service during the week end.
Currently the order expected shipping date is 12.03.2024 - 14.03.2024
I'll update the thread when I receive the parcel.

Thanks J-R for the very useful informaton and links!
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