Cheap Bluepill, very likely it has fake STM32 right ?

[Doctorandus_P]

I just bumped into the link below.

It's the globe upside down.

ST has made a chip that is pin compatible (and improvement?) with the Allwinner A13.

The A13 and ST32FM15x are Linux capable SOC's, and although "slow" by today's standard, that is not relevant when they fit in industrial processes where it's enough to get the job done. I also find the temperature range from -45c to +125c impressive.

https://olimex.wordpress.com/2020/05/20/industrial-grade-4585c-stmp1-som-is-almost-completely-routed-and-pin-to-pin-compatible-with-a13-som/

[thm_w]

ST has made a chip that is pin compatible (and improvement?) with the Allwinner A13.

The SOM (system on module) is pin compatible.

[robca]

Just leaving this here.

I was disappointed in discovering that the good old Blue Pill was dead as a development platform thanks to all the clones and fakes around. So while looking at replacements, I found that the STM32F4x1 "Black Pill" https://stm32-base.org/boards/STM32F411CEU6-WeAct-Black-Pill-V2.0.html are a much better board for just about the same price as the original Blue Pill (before the huge price drop due to the fakes)

Especially the STM32F411 variant has a ton more memory (flash/RAM), faster at 96/100MHz (need to set the clock to 96MHz if you want to use the USB) and ART flash caching, much better M4 core, and USB C connector. There is also a slightly cheaper STM32F401, but I'm not sure it's really worth it for the tiny cost reduction. Same footprint as the Blue Pill

And, at least so far, no reported clones of the STM32F411 chips...

[profdc9]

I have made versions of the Bluepill for LQFP-48 and LQFP-64 parts that can be fabricated at SMT populated using JLCPCB:

https://github.com/profdc9/STM32F4surface
https://github.com/profdc9/STM32surface

It's slightly more expensive in small quantities than the cheapies ($5 to $6 a piece for Qty 5 , PCB fabrication and population), but the quality is better.  You can also substitute STM32F303CCT6 in the BOM for STM32F103CBT6 if you want for the LQFP-48 part.

[HB9EVI]

I was disappointed in discovering that the good old Blue Pill was dead as a development platform thanks to all the clones and fakes around. So while looking at replacements, I found that the STM32F4x1 "Black Pill" https://stm32-base.org/boards/STM32F411CEU6-WeAct-Black-Pill-V2.0.html are a much better board for just about the same price as the original Blue Pill (before the huge price drop due to the fakes)

it's a question of time until those boards are cloned too.
A safe bet for developing are ST's Nucleo Boards; they have a fair price compared to its features and they are readily available from reliable sources like Digikey or Mouser.

[phil from seattle]

Yes, part of the problem with the "pills" is there is no official definition so engineering and market entropy sets in pretty quickly.

I agree with the Nucleo suggestion though I truly loathe the Arduino form factor. The pill/stamp/teensy/... form factor is so much easier to use - both on a solderless breadboard or a pcb of your own creation.

[newbrain]

I agree with the Nucleo suggestion though I truly loathe the Arduino form factor.

Nucleo boards come in three sizes:

• Small, Nucleo-32: Arduino nano format.
  Cores: F031K6, F042K6, F301K8, F303K8, L011K4, L031K6, L412KB, L432KC
• Medium, Nucleo-64: ~Arduino uno format.
  Cores: F030R8, F070RB, F072RB, F091RC, F103RB, F302R8, F303RE, F334R8, F401RE, F410RB, F411RE, F446RE, L010RB, L053R8, L073RZ, L152RE, L452RE and L476RG
• Large, Nucleo-144: A bit larger than an Arduino uno.
  Cores: F207ZG, F303ZE, F412ZG, F413ZH, F429ZI, F439ZI, F446ZE, F722ZE, F746ZG, F756ZG, F767ZI and H743ZI

WRT a blue/black pill, they all have an integrated ST-Link 2.1 (so with virtual serial and mass storage for easy flashing) and the build quality is not even comparable.
On the larger sizes, the ST-Link can be snapped off and/or be used stand alone.
While the choice of MCU on the 32 models is somewhat limited, it is still quite good.

Edit: Link to Nucleo-32 is now correct, thanks robca.

[HB9EVI]

for my projects, I'm mostly using 48pin STM32, so I use a matching Nucleo-64, skipping the not available pins on the 48pin series, so mostly PORTC and PORTD that I can easily port later to the smaller chip for my project matching PCB

[robca]

I agree with the Nucleo suggestion though I truly loathe the Arduino form factor.

Nucleo boards come in three sizes:

• Small, Nucleo-32: Arduino nano format.
  Cores: F031K6, F042K6, F301K8, F303K8, L011K4, L031K6, L412KB, L432KC

Just FYI, your first link is to the Nucleo 144 (duplicate of the last), methinks you wanted to use this one https://www.st.com/resource/en/user_manual/dm00231744-stm32-nucleo32-boards-mb1180-stmicroelectronics.pdf

Problem with those small boards is that you have fewer pins than a F411-based black pill (20 or 22, depending on how you use the OSC pins), which has 28 fully usable pins, plus USB and SWDIO (which if really needed, you can also repurpose). On the other hand, there is an integrated STLink, which for some can be great. And the many solder bridges can be used to configure, not to mention higher quality layout and noise immunity

And still cost 3 times more than an F411 black pill. I bought a few and I consider them almost disposable for quick projects. After seeing the Blue Pill cloned and ruined, I decided to buy enough not to worry about future clones . Especially for USB-centric projects those are great, allowing a simulated mouse or joystick to send data to a PC at 1kHz rate (1ms polling). Quality can be all over the place, granted, like many direct from China electronics
[/list]

[paf]

One reliable source of "Pills" could be these guys:
https://robotdyn.com

My experience with them: 

1- The pins are very easy to solder and have the right size for using them on breadboards.
2- They sell you "blues pills" in "black" with a real STM32F103C8T6 or a cheaper version with the APM32F103CB.

[GromBeestje]

I just took a look at AliExpress. It looks like the price of Blue Pills is rising. Any idea what's going on?

[Kjelt]

I just took a look at AliExpress. It looks like the price of Blue Pills is rising. Any idea what's going on?

$1.35 - $1.85 tens of sellers, what are you talking about ? Of course fake no real ST but that was already known.

[GromBeestje]

I just took a look at AliExpress. It looks like the price of Blue Pills is rising. Any idea what's going on?

$1.35 - $1.85 tens of sellers, what are you talking about ? Of course fake no real ST but that was already known.

I was looking at the "free shipping" option. I guess it's the shipping that has gone up these days.

[Kjelt]

Depends if you choose ali shipping, then it is $2 something but you can order many pieces  before that increases again.

[ColCon]

No CAN tho on those 401/411.

[GromBeestje]

I guess I see it now. The price went up on eBay but not on Ali.

Other things of note: It seems other variants have hit, F030 and F072 boards are now for sale as well. (They existed for long time, but only sold in China it seems). Their price seems to be within the usual Blue Pill range, so check what you buy.

Furthermore, it seems vcc-gnd.com made a new revision of the Blue Pill.  vcc-gnd.com also has done a Black Pill (F4), with different pinout then the WeAct one.
Also, WeAct (the designer of the F4 Black Pill) also designed a Blue Pill. Like WeAct's Black Pill, it has 5 volts where the vcc-gnc.com Blue Pill has GND. So check the pinout.

Also, there are some more Pills on the market. A seller named FeedoK got some variants out there with chips in the L0, L4, F4 and G4 series, and a GD32 board. FreedoK is a bit more expensive then your usual Pills.

[Doctorandus_P]

I think you mis -spoke (-wrote) here:

FreedoK is a bit more expensive then your usual Pills.

I consider none of these boards "expensive".
In US language, "cheap" seems to be a curse word, as some connotation between low price and low quality, and that is exactly what the average "Blue Pill" board has become. Quality has deteriorated that I would not accept the USD1.5 boards if someone gave them to me for free.

[Edit:] Clarification: Figuering out which of the "clone" chips it is, because the type number has been erased and reprinted as "STM", or even if it has one of the 8 other type numbers on it, and then trying to keep track of the incompatibilities costs more of my time than the USD1.5 price of these boards. With the Robotdyn boards you can be reasonably sure it's a real STM part (if you buy the second cheapest they have), and that is well worth the extra money to me.
Other quality issues are the mediocre PCB layout. I have not used the ADC yet, but apparently you can get 8 or 9 "true" bits out of the 12 bit ADC. and over 11 true bits if you have a good PCB layout.

I had a look at
http://vcc-gnd.com/
Not much language I can understand there, the shop redirects to taobao, which is a bridge too far for me, and on top of that, I find the stuttering and moving background annoying.

Also had a look at FeedoK:
https://www.aliexpress.com/store/group/STM32/5565045_518691931.html
Could be interesting if you want a particular chip (they have 50+ variants), but for prices between USD7 and USD14, it adds a bit up if you want to buy a few handfuls for "generic" projects.

Robotdyn still seems to be the best choice for me. Very reasonable prices (Around USD 3.5) with a promise to have real STM chips and they have some affiliate connection with (almost) local shops here in the EU (And also on other parts of this world).

[Kjelt]

Quality has deteriorated that I would not accept the USD1.5 boards if someone gave them to me for free.

You mean the "fake" stm32 on it or what other "quality" issues are there ?

[GromBeestje]

I had a look at
http://vcc-gnd.com/
Not much language I can understand there, the shop redirects to taobao, which is a bridge too far for me, and on top of that, I find the stuttering and moving background annoying.

Their AliExpress link is  https://vcc-gnd.aliexpress.com/ ( it is linked as "Friends outside Chine to buy links" )
They're launched a new website. The old one was rather simple. No annoying stuff...
The interesting part is the first link: The schematics and design files.  http://121.36.161.22:8080/zl/STM32coreboard/  (Unfortunately they used Altium which I don't have)

[AE7OO]

Some times you run across a REALLY REALLY good deal.

The best one I ever got was March of last year from Newark.

I got 73 PIC32MM0256GPM0XX's(28, 36 and 48) for a GRAND TOTAL of, wait for it, $00.10! 
I don't have a clue why they were marked down to .001 and .002 cents each. 
I had not dealt with any PIC's in years, nor did I have a clue what I would use them for, but at that price, who cares.  

And then I got lucky again.  After determining that neither my ICD2 nor my PicKit2 would program these puppies,  I went looking for a programmer.  And found out that Microchip had just recently release their MPLAB SNAP debugger/programmer that they were selling for 50% off, so I grabbed 2 for $14.95.

Yes, I know Newark is a major player, but still....

[Kjelt]

I got 73 PIC32MM0256GPM0XX's(28, 36 and 48) for a GRAND TOTAL of, wait for it, $00.10! 

I understand that you are excited with your deal but what I do not understand what this has to do with STM32 bluepills?
Did you also get 73 STM32F103s for $1 ?

[GodIsRealUnless DefinedInt]

The Blue Pill story is certainly one of intrigue, of secret deals in low places and the sophistication of the Chinese "fake" industry. I wonder if someone will write a book about it one day ?

Seems like this thread has kept referring to the sophistication and Chinese fakes angle so I'll grab techman's open question. Someone has already written a book about the sophistication of the Chinese "fake" industry. Its not really fake, its more of a cultural thing in Chinese tech hub city. They have an equivalent to Open Source Hardware that the west has for Open Source software but its self regulated instead of protected by central bodies. All the proprietary/company eyes only documents are publicly posted in the city and anyone can get all the design documents and files. The expectation is you don't simply clone and resell cheaper trying to use the name and trademarks of the original designer or company but instead you are expected to take the design and improve upon it in some way in your variant. That could be cost reduction or it could be feature enhancements. To just try to clone and undercut the original will lead to blackballing ostracizing in the community and you'll get your access cut off.

The book that opens up and explains the whole culture and industry in China is written by none other than Andrew "bunnie" Huang and is titled The Hardware Hacker, Adventures in Making and Breaking Hardware published 2017. He may have gone over this in his 2016 work titled The Essential Guide to Electronics in Shenzhen but I have not seen that work to comment on it. The Hardware Hacker was information enough to open a westerners eyes to what really goes on in Shenzhen hardware hacker culture enough to know that we woefully characterize the whole enchilada incorrectly or maybe correctly from a western eyes perspective.

Now I have to figure out what to try and getto add a few STM32 to my collection, EDIT: kind of hard for me to decide or justify as I get ESP32s for $5.33 ea with 1 day shipping from Amazon in 3 packs.

[techman-001]

My personal perspective ...  if a MCU:
* Is new in every way, then it is the "original of the type". Example STM32F1xx back in 2004.
* Imitates the behavior of the original of the type, but is a clean new design and has a unique part number, then it's a CLONE. Example CS32F103 or CKS32F103 (are they the same chip?)
* Has had the original part number removed and replaced with the part number and logo of the original of the type, then it's a FAKE.

The whole BluePill issue came about because of FAKES. If those Chinese manufacturers/seller had sold CLONES instead and waited until the market accepted them, then they would have had their own home grown, massively popular, cheap product without the distrust and suspicion that now exists. Short term thinking for a quick buck, not very smart.

That suspicion and distrust is now ingrained in Western buyers who have lost all faith in ordering anything from China because they have been ripped off before, possibly multiple times.

Western buyers don't care what excuses a liar gives for selling them FAKES, they won't forget nor will they buy there again.

I personally only buy from the USA now, where my MCU's come in dated, sealed aluminumized  bags with color coded moisture detecting cards and chain of supply data. My preferred supplier is Arrow.com who also have free UPS economy shipping over a certain amount and their prices are more than reasonable. I'm in Australia and usually receive my parts within a week, which is incredible here.

[GodIsRealUnless DefinedInt]

When I lived in Oz I faced the same problems so understandable. Unfortunately US suppliers are buying up fakes too. Even the military has fakes issues since 2011 when refurbished Boeing P-8 Poseidons had key systems failing during a bad refurbishment. Some of the Chinese chips are refurbished, removed from e-waste as western countries use China as an e-waste shipping destination. The others are factory rejects and prototype runs that are bough on the cheap from the scrap heap before being processed as scrap. There is also a large push in China to create pin-compatible pats as supply chain defense against being pulled from access to western technology. Or remarking engineering samples. We all started feeling this with the whole fake SD cards that seemed to flood everywhere, especially on flea-bay. The intensive is money,  any individual buyer or manager for an otherwise legitimate tech company in China would effectively double their take-home pay each month if they could pull off this cheat without getting caught. Even FPGAs have been hit. On the more legitimate side when Chinese companies assemble products with components they can specify contractually just as Western companies do the acceptable failure rate, etc. for orders from suppliers. Some Chinese companies order with a high failure rate as that shifts the financial costs of testing the components on the buyer but instead of doing QC on purchased components they find it cheaper to use the components as is directly on the finished products as they see it as cheaper to simply replace a defective unit for a given customer with another unit. This happened a lot in Chinese mobile phones, not sure if they still do this today. The only way forward seems to find someone you trust and then when you experience aberrant behaviour decap and investigate whats hidden beneath the packaging.

Edit: the Chinese culture words if anyone is curious
Gongkai culture and the Shanzhai
https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?cat=20

[BreakingOhmsLaw]

Yes, most of them have counterfeit MCUs on them.
I've encountered some fake STM32s that have a silicon bug that causes the timers to work differently from the original. Timers run at double the speed with the same clock divider settings when compared to a genuine STM32. Others were clearly fakes with poorly made packages, but worked as expected. 

With the current lead time problems, expect to see more fake parts on the market.