eBay AVR programmer/debuggers?

[FenderBender]

Hey guys. I ran across this on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/AVR-USB-Emulator-debugger-programmer-JTAG-ICE-for-Atmel-/160826021353?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2571fa55e9#ht_2205wt_1344

What do you guys think?

It says it supports up to AVR Studio 4.18, but I have the feeling that it says that because it was put on the market when 4.18 was the latest.

Ideas?

[Bored@Work]

This is a typical crap AVR debugger clone.

It just supports the old (Mk I) debugging interface and is two generations behind the current. It will not work with any modern AVR.

Also, it will likely not work with Studio 5 or 6 at all, because Atmel tightened the detection mechanism for programmers and debuggers in Studio 5, 6. Studio is now much more picky of what it accepts as genuine debugger.

In general, with two kinds of exceptions, there are no AVR debugger clones on the market doing current AVRs. Atmel has kept the interface proprietary, and only their own debuggers can talk to their modern AVRs. They even don't publish how to talk to the debuggers, so you are stuck with the Atmel Studio crap for driving an Atmel debugger. And their latest debugger no longer works with Studio 4.x, but requires Studio 5 or 6.

The first exception are complete ripoff clones of the original Mk II debugger. However, they became rare, and just because some Chinese company uses the same enclosure as Atmel doesn't mean it contains a working Mk II debugger.

The second exception is a Chinese company producing what they call an mkii-CN debugger. They claim they aren't doing a ripoff and that Atmel confirmed this. Interestingly, their clone got cloned and they are trying to lock out the cloners via firmware tricks.

[notsob]

The makers of the mkII-CN have just released an upgrade to make it compatible with Studio 6

[FenderBender]

So would the mkII-CN be a good cheap alternative? or would a genuine avr programmer (not debugger) be a better option?

[alm]

Genuine AVR Dragon is cheaper and is more likely to work with future versions of AVR Studio. It allows both programming and debugging. If you want a robust programmer, then the AVR ISP Mk. II is an affordable solution.

[olsenn]

Why does everyone complain about official Atmel programmers/debuggers being too expensive (or be so hesitant on getting a cheaper clone)? If you cannot affort $50 for a programmer than you'll have a hell of a time having a product manufactured!

[Bored@Work]

Why does everyone complain about official Atmel programmers/debuggers being too expensive (or be so hesitant on getting a cheaper clone)? If you cannot affort $50 for a programmer than you'll have a hell of a time having a product manufactured!

First of all, Atmel doesn't properly warrant their programmers and debuggers. If one breaks you are on your own. Even if you buy the most professional product from them.

As for the various products:

Atmel's cheap debugger (the Dragon) is borderline to rubbish. And it does not support all Atmel MCUs. Buy them in packs of five if you need them in a professional environment.

Atmel's expensive one (AVR ONE!) also doesn't support all Atmel MCUs. Don't expect Atmel supporting you when you have an issue.

Atmel's preferred (preferred by Atmel ...) starter kit STK600 has mediocre features (only JTAG programming, no JTAG debugging), is expensive, and has a confusing amount of expensive add-ons (something like 60+ ones). Often the right, mandatory add-ons not being available when needed.

Professional user's preferred STK500, is, despite its popularity and protest by users, put on life support, no longer properly supported by the latest Studio release, and no longer gets firmware updates to support newer AVRs.

Atmel's JTAGICE mkII is overpriced for that bit of plastic it is.

Atmel's JTAGICE 3 is a little bit more robust than the mkII, but is only supported by Studio 5/6, not supported on any other operating systems at all, and does not support some classic AVRs.

Atmel's AVRISP mkII is also a piece of plastic, but reasonable priced. Only that it is just a programmer, not a debugger, and when it comes to programming it does not support JTAG and aWire programming at all.

To answer your question, it is not just that people think the debuggers are too expensive, but that one doesn't get one's money worth.

Well, I know, in the "good old days" we had to pay $10000 and more to get some in-circuit emulator. But dude, these times are gone.

[hlavac]

Just go with the Dragon, you will be fine. I certainly am.

[FenderBender]

Uh-oh...Here are the famous last words...

Dragon + AVR Studio or... Arduino

Before you try to find my IP address so you can hunt me down and murder me in my sleep...listen I hate the turn a thread into another ____vs Arduino thread, but...

I have done some computer programming, mostly with Visual Basic, and just a tad with microcontrollers. To me working with microcontrollers is not completely foreign but I lack much experience with them.

I also have an Arduino board...

Then again, AVR Dragon is like $50 (+ a few bucks here and there for some misc. extra parts).

Essentially, would it be wise or unwise to really get started programming with microcontrollers with a standard AVR solution vs Arduino.

Yeah I've been looking into a dragon for a while. Hmmph.


Thanks.

[andyg]

"Essentially, would it be wise or unwise to really get started programming with microcontrollers with a standard AVR solution vs Arduino."

You could have the best of both worlds, use "standard AVR programming" with an Arduino. avrdude supports uploading to the arduino bootloader. You could probably integrate it into AVR Studio, or just use a nice text editor with a Makefile.

Or use one of those USB based boards with the DFU bootloader (as described in one of the other posts). e.g AT90USBKEY, adafruit atmega23u4 breakout, Micropendous etc.

[westfw]

Arduino has no debugging capability, sending you back to square one if that was what you wanted.

If you're ONLY interesting in programming chips, and not in the debugging, then there is a wider set of "reasonable" possibilities.

Personally, I'm upset that Atmel keeps the debugging protocols so proprietary.

[Erwin Ried]

Netduino has debugging capabilities (Visual Studio) if you need to code something with a lot of feedback it is probably a good option.

[westfw]

Netduino is not an AVR.

For great debugging capabilities, do your initial development on the PC side, using a native PC compiler.  Keeping the discipline to use "int16_t" instead of "int" will be good for you, as will the thought process that goes into dividing up your app into "pieces that can run on anything" and "other."

[Hypernova]

Atmel's AVRISP mkII is also a piece of plastic, but reasonable priced. Only that it is just a programmer, not a debugger, and when it comes to programming it does not support JTAG and aWire programming at all.

Not true, it can programme in JTAG just fine. I know because I used it to pull the hex out of a ATMEGA32L and put it in another. And for devices with dedicated PDI you want to use that anyway since JTAG often override other functions, eg for the XMEGAs the JTAG consumes 4 inputs on the second ADC.