Author Topic: Can Segger legally enforce J-Link EDU Mini restrictions?  (Read 1792 times)

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Online ataradov

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Re: Can Segger legally enforce J-Link EDU Mini restrictions?
« Reply #25 on: Yesterday at 01:04:28 am »
Does CMSIS-DAP have anything broadly similar to Segger's RTT?
From the functionality point of view, CMSIS-DAP has everything necessary to implement that. But there is no standard implementation or specification for control blocks or commands like that as far as I'm aware.

Designing and implementing those things is what costs money. It is purely a software feature that can work over any debugger, but the software is free, so this is why hardware is expensive.
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Offline GromBeestje

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Re: Can Segger legally enforce J-Link EDU Mini restrictions?
« Reply #26 on: Yesterday at 08:17:17 am »
OpenOCD implements RTT these days. As such, it can be used with any adapter supported by OpenOCD. However, last time I checked, it only works on ARM targets, not yet on RISC-V, whereas SEGGER software should support RTT on RISCV targets as well.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Can Segger legally enforce J-Link EDU Mini restrictions?
« Reply #27 on: Yesterday at 12:05:22 pm »
I never saw a EULA when I installed the deb package.
This does not mean there is no license. Just because you did not bother to check, does not mean you are not bound by it. You don't need to explicitly agree to anything.
Are you seriously suggesting that a user can be bound by terms they have not been shown and agreed to?
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Online peter-h

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Re: Can Segger legally enforce J-Link EDU Mini restrictions?
« Reply #28 on: Yesterday at 02:49:52 pm »
Quote
Are you seriously suggesting that a user can be bound by terms they have not been shown and agreed to?

If they see them too late but still continue to use the product, yes, quite possibly.

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Online Nominal Animal

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Re: Can Segger legally enforce J-Link EDU Mini restrictions?
« Reply #29 on: Yesterday at 05:36:58 pm »
What happens when a customer violates an EULA, without violating copyright laws?

In the EU, that is a contract violation.  So, if you are a private customer, the vendor/manufacturer can sue you.  That's it.  Considering the strong customer protections, it is quite dangerous for the company.

For companies it is a different thing, because business-to-business contract laws differ, and because of the Software Alliance (formerly BSA) trade group.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Can Segger legally enforce J-Link EDU Mini restrictions?
« Reply #30 on: Today at 08:48:32 am »
Quote
Are you seriously suggesting that a user can be bound by terms they have not been shown and agreed to?

If they see them too late but still continue to use the product, yes, quite possibly.
But the contract cannot exist, unless the buyer has had the chance to see it before purchasing the product, so it cannot be valid.
 

Online Nominal Animal

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Re: Can Segger legally enforce J-Link EDU Mini restrictions?
« Reply #31 on: Today at 09:12:28 am »
Quote
Are you seriously suggesting that a user can be bound by terms they have not been shown and agreed to?

If they see them too late but still continue to use the product, yes, quite possibly.
But the contract cannot exist, unless the buyer has had the chance to see it before purchasing the product, so it cannot be valid.
Note that that applies in the EU (and possibly UK); in the USA, EULAs are legally binding even if entered into well after the purchase.

I do believe that in the USA, you can only either accept the EULA, or decline and not install or use the software (and possibly get your money back, although I'm not sure of even that).  I have no idea about Asian countries like Japan and South Korea.

So, there really is a big difference here on the different sides of the pond.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Can Segger legally enforce J-Link EDU Mini restrictions?
« Reply #32 on: Today at 11:58:46 am »
Quote
Are you seriously suggesting that a user can be bound by terms they have not been shown and agreed to?

If they see them too late but still continue to use the product, yes, quite possibly.
But the contract cannot exist, unless the buyer has had the chance to see it before purchasing the product, so it cannot be valid.
Note that that applies in the EU (and possibly UK); in the USA, EULAs are legally binding even if entered into well after the purchase.

I do believe that in the USA, you can only either accept the EULA, or decline and not install or use the software (and possibly get your money back, although I'm not sure of even that).  I have no idea about Asian countries like Japan and South Korea.

So, there really is a big difference here on the different sides of the pond.
If the hardware is unusable without the software, which requires a EULA, then it's a design defect and it's only reasonable to allow the purchaser to return it, in exchange for a refund, if they disagree with it.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Can Segger legally enforce J-Link EDU Mini restrictions?
« Reply #33 on: Today at 09:03:25 pm »
Yes, it seems obvious to me that any *condition* relative to the use of some product should be made clear and known to the consumer *before* the purchase.
In case of EULAs, it's rarely if ever the case - you only see the EULA after the purchase, usually. Which is already a defect IMO.
But you must at least be able to decline the EULA if you disagree, and get a refund.
That would be the same for any other condition for using a product.

Any law that would not protect consumers in this way would be f*cking them over. One needs to be fully informed before committing, otherwise it's just fraud. IMHO.
 

Online Nominal Animal

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Re: Can Segger legally enforce J-Link EDU Mini restrictions?
« Reply #34 on: Today at 10:51:37 pm »
As a software developer myself (who does occasionally work with proprietary commercial software, too), I find it silly that vendors don't show the contracts up front, before one makes the purchase decision, including any kind of end-user agreements.  It isn't difficult, and your competitors will trivially find them out if they care, so it's not "business sensitive" in any way.

For free/open source software, those that use copyright licenses and not EULAs, the situation is simpler because the user always has the permissions given by copyright law (including to use the software at least in EU), and the copyright license only extends those rights, and really worry about distribution and derivative works rather than how the user uses the software.  If you break a copyright license, you only lose the rights to distribute copies and create derivative works, not the right to use the software.

For proprietary but zero-cost software, the install-time user agreement is acceptable, because the user can simply decline.  It makes business sense to show the EULA before the user starts the download, because that way users wishing to decline do not have to download large amount of data for no reason, but is not an absolute requirement.

Thus, we should ask Segger why they do this.  It is odd, and likely drives away more customers than would ever "break" their EULA in any way that Segger actually cares.  Is it all just to soothe the non-technical, non-copyright-savvy Cxx higher-ups in the company?  Doesn't sound likely, looking at their history and background.

I can understand that Segger wants to monetize both the software and the hardware, and avoid any situation where a potential paying customer might instead use the less-profitable-to-Segger "EDU" versions, which they probably intended only as a way to hook students into their software and hardware ecosystem, so that when they move to the workforce, they'd suggest the companies they work for to use Segger products.  This is clear, and quite normal.

What is odd is that Segger is a German company, and should be well aware of EU laws concerning non-business customers (including relevant contract law).  It seems almost like they're using the "EDU" version EULA as a scare tactic only, knowing well that if they were to sue a private customer about the EDU version EULA violation (remember, it's a contract; we're not talking about copyright law violations like distributing copies here), the court would be rather likely to rule for the private customer, and might even rule the EULA "unfair".

It must be a pretty cold risk-cost-benefit calculation.
« Last Edit: Today at 10:53:30 pm by Nominal Animal »
 

Online ataradov

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Re: Can Segger legally enforce J-Link EDU Mini restrictions?
« Reply #35 on: Today at 11:14:21 pm »
Segger does show a message asking you to confirm that you will comply with the EULA when you download stuff.

I have not tried to download their GUI installers, but in the DEB file there is not a good way to show EULA at the install time. Sure, you can interrupt the install process to print some message, but that sucks. In any case, you can see that EULA before making a purchase.

And of course all the licenses are available on the site without initiating any downloads - https://www.segger.com/purchase/licensing/
« Last Edit: Today at 11:16:40 pm by ataradov »
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