Author Topic: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux  (Read 29415 times)

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Offline Stray Electron

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Re: I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2016, 07:31:46 pm »
Just switch to Windows 10 and you will be happy again ;)

  Fixed it for you.   :palm:
 

Online legacy

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Re: I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2016, 07:39:43 pm »
consider building a virtual machine template for you build environment, at least you stand a fighting chance at being able to build your software again reasonably easily in the furure. But I feel your pain.

done!

I have
- extracted my old 2008 stage4 from my old laptop (it's a PowerBook-G4, running gentoo linux)
- created a Qemu/PPC virtual machine
- installed the stage4, which comes with gcc v4.1.2, native compiling host=target=powerpc

results
  • kernel-2.6.19-sandpoint3-G4: success  :-+
  • kernel-2.6.22-sandpoint3-G4: success  :-+

with "success" I mean
- it compiles
- the final binary boots on the final target



in paralel I have also
- downloaded VirtualPC
- installed gentoo-stage3/x86 32bit
- fixed up to 215 errors, most of them are the same error repeated several time(1)
- made a regression from i686-pc-linux-gnu-5 to i686-pc-linux-gnu-4.9.3
- cross-emerged gcc v4.1.2 and binutils 2.25.1-r1 for PowerPC

Code: [Select]
otaku sandpoint3 # gcc-config -l
 [1] i686-pc-linux-gnu-4.9.3 *
 [2] powerpc-unknown-linux-gnu-4.1.2 *

results
  • kernel-2.6.19-sandpoint3-G4: success  :-+
  • kernel-2.6.22-sandpoint3-G4: failure/it does not compile  :--


(1) those "silly" errors(2) are are lying along the whole tree
including script folders and subfolders, and source folders
there are also a lot of wrong things with "arch/powerpc" and "arch/ppc"

I have also removed the "arch/ppc" folder, and forced things into "arch/powerpc"
as I am invoking gcc with the following

Code: [Select]
myccandclib="powerpc-unknown-linux-gnu-"
make ARCH=powerpc CROSS_COMPILE=$myccandclib


edit:
(2) most of them appear as
*** mixed implicit and normal rules
*** deprecated syntax

and as "wrong path", due to the confusion between "ppc" and "powerpc"
e.g. fatal error: "arch/ppc/kernel/head_32.S": No such file or directory
while the file is "arch/powerpc/kernel/head_32.S"

but there are also errors which are gcc-version dependent
and I do not really want to fight with gcc >= v4.2
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 07:47:12 pm by legacy »
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2016, 07:41:29 pm »
Well it is not linux specific. A few years back I had the dubious fun to fix some bugs in old VC6 code. It was a major hassle to get it to compile with an up to date version of Visual Studio.

I still use VC6.... and half a dozen versions after that, but it's getting harder to make it run on newer Windows versions, but I still occasionally use it as I have sh!t loads of boiler plate code I've written over the years in it. As for getting basic C stuff to compile in later versions of VS, I don't find it that hard as a general rule, but then much of my stuff still uses vanilla Win32 API.
 

Offline hendorog

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Re: I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2016, 08:05:38 pm »
Just switch to Windows 10 and you will be happy again ;)

  Fixed it for you.   :palm:

April 1? Windows 10 on ppc  :-DD
 

Offline janoc

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Re: I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2016, 08:44:44 pm »
Quote from: linux-works on Today at 02:32:08 AM
doing a make as root inside a root folder....

LMAO!

just hire someone to fix your problem.  I doubt you'll ever get there yourself.

This is a very typical example of the sort of help you can expect if you have a problem with Linux and have to ask the "experts".  You can sort of see why Linux is still an also ran against Windows and OSX on the desktop...

The post you have quoted was not very mature nor helpful, indeed. However, your reaction with this non-sequitur only helps fuel such fanboys.

That Linux is not widespread on desktop has all to do with immature kiddies on forums and certainly nothing at all with well documented anticompetitive behaviour of a certain company that pulled all stops whenever any PC vendor even mentioned they could offer preinstalled Linux ... Surprisingly, outside of PC space where that vendor doesn't have a near monopoly Linux is doing very well, despite all those kiddies. I do wonder why is that.

And re OPs problem - good luck trying to get a piece of hw that was designed for Windows XP running in today's Windows 8/10 unless there is a specific support from the vendor. Or software that depends on old releases of Visual Studio/Delphi or something like that. I am battling these issues all the time at work.

But right, software evolution/deprecation and not doing the common sense thing (aka complete backup of the development system - not necessarily a VM, which may not have been an option 8 years ago) is somehow Linux's problem ...  :palm:

Oh and nctnico's comment about breaking backward compatibility being a bad thing - I am really glad that you aren't in charge of this stuff or we would be still having only two gears in our cars like Model T and computers would come with punch card readers.

Czechs have a nice saying I have learned when starting with software engineering many moons ago. It loosely translates as: "programmer that blames his tools has just cut his own suspenders" (implying his ass is naked now).

Seriously guys ...
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 08:55:31 pm by janoc »
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2016, 09:01:53 pm »
Retaining backwards compatibility does not mean holding back progress.

How would you feel if you got in a new car and found the brake and accelerator pedals swapped?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 09:05:02 pm by Howardlong »
 

Online legacy

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2016, 09:14:16 pm »
my 2008 stage4 comes with

Code: [Select]
gcc-config -l
 [1] powerpc-unknown-linux-gnu-3.4.6
 [2] powerpc-unknown-linux-gnu-4.1.1
 [3] powerpc-unknown-linux-gnu-4.1.2 *

Code: [Select]
binutils-config -l
 [1] powerpc-unknown-linux-gnu-2.17 *

Code: [Select]
minerva ~ # as -v
GNU assembler version 2.17 (powerpc-unknown-linux-gnu) using BFD version 2.17
 

Offline hendorog

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2016, 09:17:47 pm »
Retaining backwards compatibility is not the same as making progress.

Retaining backwards compatibility hinders progress.

Retaining backwards compatibility is a noble goal. But the cost is additional complexity for every change which has to maintain it. Over time that complexity grows. There comes a time when a line must be drawn and the old code removed.

It's easy to blame the programmers, but they are doing it for a good reason.

How would you feel if you got in a new car and found the brake and accelerator pedals swapped?

I'm sure you have noticed that the number of pedals are different in an automatic cf a manual. :)

 

Offline apelly

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Re: I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2016, 09:39:13 pm »
doing a make as root inside a root folder....

LMAO!

just hire someone to fix your problem.  I doubt you'll ever get there yourself.

This is a very typical example of the sort of help you can expect for free, on an ee forum, while you're ranting, if you have a problem with Linux and have to ask the "experts".  You can sort of see why Linux is still an also ran against Windows and OSX on the desktop...
FTFY

mikerj, nobody is forced to use linux. Please use whatever operating system you would like.

The OP clearly has the wherewithal to deal with his situation and is sharing his frustration for our entertainment. Thanks mate. I feel your pain.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 09:42:06 pm by apelly »
I'd rather a Google clue, link, or some theory than "do this" (generally)
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2016, 09:45:12 pm »
Retaining backwards compatibility is not the same as making progress.

Retaining backwards compatibility hinders progress.

Retaining backwards compatibility is a noble goal. But the cost is additional complexity for every change which has to maintain it. Over time that complexity grows. There comes a time when a line must be drawn and the old code removed.

It's easy to blame the programmers, but they are doing it for a good reason.
Indeed, however there is a balance. One problem is that there is a mentality in the industry to change things for the sake of it but not think about the ramifications.

For example, recently the Raspberry Pi Linux build changed the way the IP address configuration is done. This rendered, and continues to render, thousands of helpful online documents to the gutter. I don't know why the change was made, and it took quite some time to find any documentation related to it. I am sure whoever was behind it was well meaning, but failed to understand the wider implications.

Key is up to date documentation. As a further example, the Red Pitaya reworked their distro last Septempber rendering much their entire wiki useless. They have still not updated it.

As I said before, the average half life of Linux documentation is barely a few weeks: compare that to similar applications in other OSes. It is particularly acute within Linux as there is little if any coordination between developers of disparate components and dependancies. It is left to the end user to figure it out when it breaks. That is THE key problem of adoption of Linux to the desktop: the end user still needs those "special Penguin skills" as Dave calls them so it remains largely a tinkerer's delight.

Quote
How would you feel if you got in a new car and found the brake and accelerator pedals swapped?

I'm sure you have noticed that the number of pedals are different in an automatic cf a manual. :)

Indeed, and they are backwards compatible.  ;)
 

Offline janoc

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2016, 10:00:35 pm »
Retaining backwards compatibility does not mean holding back progress.

How would you feel if you got in a new car and found the brake and accelerator pedals swapped?

Howard, I do wonder how did people manage to drive before http://www.modelt.ca/drive.html:
Quote
There are three pedals on the floor marked from left to right when sitting in the driver's seat: C (clutch), R (reverse) and B (break). There are two levers on the steering column, spark advance and throttle, and one floor lever to the left of the driver. The floor lever is neutral while in the upright position, second gear when in the forward position while the leftmost pedal (C) is not depressed, and emergency brake when all the way back.

The leftmost pedal (C) is first gear while depressed, second gear if the floor lever is forward when released. The middle pedal is reverse gear when depressed and the rightmost pedal is the brake. The right lever on the steering column is the gas, and the other lever is the spark advance. Confused? Once you drive for a month or so, it gets easy, but the controls are far from orthogonal. If you get into trouble, you can just stomp on all three pedals and that will stop you pretty quick. Doing this causes the bands in the transmission to lock up the drive train. The best thing to remember while driving is to plan ahead.

And that was probably the most popular car in its time. By your logic we should still be using that scheme otherwise all those driving manuals and driving school textbook would need to be rewritten!

Quote from: Howardlong
For example, recently the Raspberry Pi Linux build changed the way the IP address configuration is done. This rendered, and continues to render, thousands of helpful online documents to the gutter. I don't know why the change was made, and it took quite some time to find any documentation related to it. I am sure whoever was behind it was well meaning, but failed to understand the wider implications.

You are assuming that the change was done for the change's sake and not for some other reason (which you are ignorant about by your own admission). I am not sure what you are referring to, though. I was setting up a Raspberry Pi 3 with the latest Raspbian last week and the IP address is still set up in /etc/network/interfaces, as it always was in Debian.

If every change had to consider the tons of books and documentation written on the subject that would become obsolete, we would never get anywhere. That's a ridiculous proposition. The right way is to press the vendors to actually update the documentation, not to forbid making changes!

In the case of free products, like Debian Linux (which Raspbian on RasPi is derived from) - it is up to everyone to contribute. People are forgetting that many (not all) of these projects are running only thanks to unpaid labor of volunteers who keep the distributions going and write the documentation.

Not everyone is a programmer, but most people can read and write. If you don't like some documentation being out of date, what prevents you from spending a few hours and updating the relevant bit? That will certainly not ruin you and others, who come after you, will be grateful for saving their time. If you don't want to do that, go to a commercial vendor like RedHat or SuSE, get a support contract and then you can unload on them should something be out of date or not working to your satisfaction - because you are paying for it. But whining about a free product that others prepared for you is really cheap.


« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 10:22:52 pm by janoc »
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2016, 10:25:49 pm »
Retaining backwards compatibility does not mean holding back progress.

How would you feel if you got in a new car and found the brake and accelerator pedals swapped?

Howard, I do wonder how did people manage to drive before:
Quote
There are three pedals on the floor marked from left to right when sitting in the driver's seat: C (clutch), R (reverse) and B (break). There are two levers on the steering column, spark advance and throttle, and one floor lever to the left of the driver. The floor lever is neutral while in the upright position, second gear when in the forward position while the leftmost pedal (C) is not depressed, and emergency brake when all the way back.

The leftmost pedal (C) is first gear while depressed, second gear if the floor lever is forward when released. The middle pedal is reverse gear when depressed and the rightmost pedal is the brake. The right lever on the steering column is the gas, and the other lever is the spark advance. Confused? Once you drive for a month or so, it gets easy, but the controls are far from orthogonal. If you get into trouble, you can just stomp on all three pedals and that will stop you pretty quick. Doing this causes the bands in the transmission to lock up the drive train. The best thing to remember while driving is to plan ahead.

From: http://www.modelt.ca/drive.html

Indeed, I remember as a child reading the owner manual for a Hillman Imp about 45 years ago and thinking even then that if you need this information you probably shouldn't be driving a car.
 

Offline elgonzo

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #37 on: April 02, 2016, 10:33:43 pm »
Lol, it is perhaps just me, but i feel not all talking here about backward compatibility are real software developers...

Whether keeping a "thing" backwards compatible (doesn't matter if it is in the context of runtime environment or development framework) is useful and beneficial or counter-productive and costly depends entirely on the "thing" itself and the overall situation regarding this "thing" (including, but not limited to, how widely the "thing" is used, how many other "things" depend on that "thing", the severity of the disadvantages/problems exhibited by that "thing", the costs and pain of migrating away from that "thing", ...).

Like many things, whether to keep something backwards compatible is a decision that, when chosen properly, more often than not falls somewhere in the gray area between the black and white of "backwards compatibility is bad" vs. "backwards compatibility is good".

Backwards compatibility hinders progress as much as two magnets repel each other.
Wait, two magnets attract each other.
No, they repel each other.
You have obviously no clue. All magnets i have are attracting each other. Idiot...

Anyway, don't let yourself be distracted by my rambling. Keep arguing  :popcorn:  ;)
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 12:35:21 am by elgonzo »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #38 on: April 02, 2016, 10:38:49 pm »
@Elgonzo: spoken like a true programmer indeed and like most programmers also totally oblivious to the problems and costs something not-backwards compatible  causes for the people who have to apply / maintain it in the field.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline elgonzo

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #39 on: April 02, 2016, 10:41:52 pm »
@Elgonzo: spoken like a true programmer indeed and like most programmers also totally oblivious to the problems and costs something not-backwards compatible  causes for the people who have to apply / maintain it in the field.
Didn't i mention something about "costs and pain", or was that just a dream?  ;)
 

Offline hendorog

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #40 on: April 02, 2016, 11:37:53 pm »
@Elgonzo: spoken like a true programmer indeed and like most programmers also totally oblivious to the problems and costs something not-backwards compatible  causes for the people who have to apply / maintain it in the field.

And sometimes the users are totally oblivious to the costs and problems maintaining backwards compatibility incurs on the project.

Sometimes tough decisions have to be made in the name of progress. e.g. Microsoft abandoned support for XP despite it still having millions of users worldwide.

Here is MS posting about removing 220000 lines of code and 300 API's - from your perspective is that a good thing or a bad thing??
https://blogs.windows.com/msedgedev/2015/05/06/a-break-from-the-past-part-2-saying-goodbye-to-activex-vbscript-attachevent/

Of course everyone knows ActiveX is a bad thing - but try telling that to the people who are depending upon it...




 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #41 on: April 03, 2016, 12:10:33 am »
Quote from: Howardlong
For example, recently the Raspberry Pi Linux build changed the way the IP address configuration is done. This rendered, and continues to render, thousands of helpful online documents to the gutter. I don't know why the change was made, and it took quite some time to find any documentation related to it. I am sure whoever was behind it was well meaning, but failed to understand the wider implications.

You are assuming that the change was done for the change's sake and not for some other reason (which you are ignorant about by your own admission). I am not sure what you are referring to, though. I was setting up a Raspberry Pi 3 with the latest Raspbian last week and the IP address is still set up in /etc/network/interfaces, as it always was in Debian.

If every change had to consider the tons of books and documentation written on the subject that would become obsolete, we would never get anywhere. That's a ridiculous proposition. The right way is to press the vendors to actually update the documentation, not to forbid making changes!

In the case of free products, like Debian Linux (which Raspbian on RasPi is derived from) - it is up to everyone to contribute. People are forgetting that many (not all) of these projects are running only thanks to unpaid labor of volunteers who keep the distributions going and write the documentation.

Not everyone is a programmer, but most people can read and write. If you don't like some documentation being out of date, what prevents you from spending a few hours and updating the relevant bit? That will certainly not ruin you and others, who come after you, will be grateful for saving their time. If you don't want to do that, go to a commercial vendor like RedHat or SuSE, get a support contract and then you can unload on them should something be out of date or not working to your satisfaction - because you are paying for it. But whining about a free product that others prepared for you is really cheap.

First, to be clear, I wasn't whining. I was making a statement of fact. The half life of Linux-based software documentation is small when compared to that of other OSes.

If I make something for someone else to use then I document it for their use. Without that documentation, the job is not finished. If you think you are a programmer making stuff for others to use, and documentation does not apply to you, then you are not a programmer, paid or not. You may think you are shit hot at coding something up, but if you don't communicate what you've done or how to use it, then no, you are not a programmer, you are a bedroom tinkerer. If you don't want to document and justify your changes, then you should think very carefully about the impact of your actions before distributing your work and deprecating older works.

Regarding the RPi's change of the way the network interface is used, I refer you to this.

https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=111709

Now, look up on google "static IP address Raspberry Pi" and practically everything points you to methods that no longer work, nine months after the new "feature" was added. I am giving this as an example of where you need those special Penguin skills, which include being very patient, accepting that things break unexpectedly, enjoy tinkering, and having plenty of time on your hands, and own industrial scale rabbit hole digging equipment.

Yes, you need those skills with other OSes, but last time I checked, irritating as Windows is (and God do I hate the way that UI is continually messed with) some well meaning fairy godmother doesn't come over and mess about randomly with fundamental configuration files without making it very clear. After all, why would anyone want a dhcp client messing with an explictly defined static IP address setting exactly?

So I am not complaining, I am simply stating that you don't really get something for nothing when you buy Linux, the cost is your time honing your Penguin skills. It's also one reason why Linux admins currently demand the highest salaries, because of their special Penguin skills. The OS might be cheap but the people managing them, not so much.
 

Offline Nerull

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #42 on: April 03, 2016, 12:17:58 am »
As someone who has been using linux for 15 years, the best way to use linux is to ignore linux users.

As a community, Linux is essentially a cargo cult. The loudest users are those who use it purely to be "cool". They don't know how it works, they don't understand it, but they love to brag about using it. These people will pour into any thread about linux and give lots of unhelpful condescending replies, to cover up the fact that they know even less about the problem than you do.

The root of your problem is that, especially in the 2.x era, GCC and the kernel are very closely linked. If you tried to build with the wrong version, you would be lucky if it built at all, and if it did the chances of it not panicking were slim. It was common practice in those days for distros to include a "modern" build of GCC for normal compiling, and a special older version of GCC for building the kernel and modules. Add in several years of chances since then, and you've got a nightmare on your hands. Using a known-good toolchain from the time that kernel was released is really the only answer, unless you want to do a lot of porting.
 

Offline Earendil

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #43 on: April 03, 2016, 01:12:38 am »
Those who talk about backward compatibility doesn't realize that software is far more complex than electronics.
Writing the Linux kernel for example would take far more than a lifetime for a single person. Any large software project is beyond the comprehension of any single engineer. Also software (including design requirements) changes far more often than electronics.
Backward compatibility therefore is a huge effort that significantly slows down development. Most open source developers are simply not interested in spending huge efforts to support legacy software.
You can always pay a commercial company huge sums of money for their supported commercial operating system; or you can buy support for open source software; no one stops you doing that. On other hand if you don't do that than please stop whining and consider that lot of the software that you criticize was written by someone in his/her free time for free. And besides in this specific case compatibility was broken to make it possible to develop new features for the software.
 
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2016, 02:39:15 am »
As someone who has been using linux for 15 years, the best way to use linux is to ignore linux users.

As a community, Linux is essentially a cargo cult. The loudest users are those who use it purely to be "cool". They don't know how it works, they don't understand it, but they love to brag about using it. These people will pour into any thread about linux and give lots of unhelpful condescending replies, to cover up the fact that they know even less about the problem than you do.

The root of your problem is that, especially in the 2.x era, GCC and the kernel are very closely linked. If you tried to build with the wrong version, you would be lucky if it built at all, and if it did the chances of it not panicking were slim. It was common practice in those days for distros to include a "modern" build of GCC for normal compiling, and a special older version of GCC for building the kernel and modules. Add in several years of chances since then, and you've got a nightmare on your hands. Using a known-good toolchain from the time that kernel was released is really the only answer, unless you want to do a lot of porting.
+1, +10, +100...
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #45 on: April 03, 2016, 02:54:41 am »
Those who talk about backward compatibility doesn't realize that software is far more complex than electronics.
Writing the Linux kernel for example would take far more than a lifetime for a single person. Any large software project is beyond the comprehension of any single engineer. Also software (including design requirements) changes far more often than electronics. Backward compatibility therefore is a huge effort that significantly slows down development. Most open source developers are simply not interested in spending huge efforts to support legacy software.
he'll never understand his own code and probably he will never see the light of truth, ever. thats why lee nucks is still a no go for me even after its many many years of continual development. apart from other trivial and non-trivial reasons. one of the new reason i realized is that... lee nucks lovers are the "command line" lovers (keen programmer alike or in fact a programmer). i was that, until the present day provide me with more and more productive tools that "command line" is almost not necessary anymore. i dont understand the idea of "text readable" this and that, or "command line" this and that argument in lee nucks. as far as i understand it, all that can be done in Windows if one want to..

ps: i'm not a Windows worshipper either, i will run what gave me the least problem, ie still... the older Windows. the most issues with newer Windows is performance of bloated Windows features that probably i'll never use. i'm not sure what technologies or features bloat lee nucks (PC) has to offer, i'm guessing it struggles to provide what others (leading edge) have published leaving the compatibility issue as is (or "as was"), or just maybe this is inherent to the lee nucks architecture from the beginning i dont know.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 04:28:16 am by Mechatrommer »
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #46 on: April 03, 2016, 06:03:41 am »
Those who talk about backward compatibility doesn't realize that software is far more complex than electronics.
Been doing both software and electronics since the 70s me old son! I fully realise how complex software is, and it isn't getting any better, and one of the reasons is that well-meaning individuals add "stuff" without sufficient justification. Just look at all the languages and derivatives coming out of the woodwork these days. They can't all survive, most will just create more and more entropy and noise, and die.

Quote
Writing the Linux kernel for example would take far more than a lifetime for a single person. Any large software project is beyond the comprehension of any single engineer. Also software (including design requirements) changes far more often than electronics.

You see, we agree, nowadays it is not possible for an individual to be able to fully understand some systems on their own. But introducing yet more changes unnecessarily only makes that worse. Programmers love to change stuff, I know I do, things can always be done better in a programmer's utopian miniworld. But they also need to be mindful of the effect that has on the greater community.

Design requirements may change but that doesn't mean you have to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Quote
Backward compatibility therefore is a huge effort that significantly slows down development.

You're over playing the amount of effort. How much effort do you think it is for your end users to adapt and re-build and fix their environments every few weeks because someone woke up one day and decided to deprecate something on a whim because they thought they could do it better? That costs a *lot* more.

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Most open source developers are simply not interested in spending huge efforts to support legacy software.

Which is the problem. They want to be continually tinkering at the expense of the end user.

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You can always pay a commercial company huge sums of money for their supported commercial operating system; or you can buy support for open source software; no one stops you doing that. On other hand if you don't do that than please stop whining and consider that lot of the software that you criticize was written by someone in his/her free time for free. And besides in this specific case compatibility was broken to make it possible to develop new features for the software.

As I said, I wasn't whining, I was making a statement of fact which you've further confirmed, that there is a trend among open source deveopers to build what they think are bigger and brighter things at the expense of existing functionality, with little consideration on the impact to end users. My point is that the balance in the Linux world is skewed too far in this direction, and as such makes it a turn off for your average end user.
 

Offline f1rmb

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #47 on: April 03, 2016, 06:13:17 am »
Those who talk about backward compatibility doesn't realize that software is far more complex than electronics.
Been doing both software and electronics since the 70s me old son! I fully realise how complex software is, and it isn't getting any better, and one of the reasons is that well-meaning individuals add "stuff" without sufficient justification. Just look at all the languages and derivatives coming out of the woodwork these days. They can't all survive, most will just create more and more entropy and noise, and die.

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Writing the Linux kernel for example would take far more than a lifetime for a single person. Any large software project is beyond the comprehension of any single engineer. Also software (including design requirements) changes far more often than electronics.

You see, we agree, nowadays it is not possible for an individual to be able to fully understand some systems on their own. But introducing yet more changes unnecessarily only makes that worse. Programmers love to change stuff, I know I do, things can always be done better in a programmer's utopian miniworld. But they also need to be mindful of the effect that has on the greater community.

Design requirements may change but that doesn't mean you have to throw the baby out with the bath water.

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Backward compatibility therefore is a huge effort that significantly slows down development.

You're over playing the amount of effort. How much effort do you think it is for your end users to adapt and re-build and fix their environments every few weeks because someone woke up one day and decided to deprecate something on a whim because they thought they could do it better? That costs a *lot* more.

Quote
Most open source developers are simply not interested in spending huge efforts to support legacy software.

Which is the problem. They want to be continually tinkering at the expense of the end user.

Quote
You can always pay a commercial company huge sums of money for their supported commercial operating system; or you can buy support for open source software; no one stops you doing that. On other hand if you don't do that than please stop whining and consider that lot of the software that you criticize was written by someone in his/her free time for free. And besides in this specific case compatibility was broken to make it possible to develop new features for the software.

As I said, I wasn't whining, I was making a statement of fact which you've further confirmed, that there is a trend among open source deveopers to build what they think are bigger and brighter things at the expense of existing functionality, with little consideration on the impact to end users. My point is that the balance in the Linux world is skewed too far in this direction, and as such makes it a turn off for your average end user.
Errrrrr, excuse me, but is "end user" have to deal with software compilation? Do any Windows user recompile their Microsoft Office, LibreOffice, Windows kernel, whatever. The same apply to OS-X, and even Linux. End users install binaries, period.

The starting point was "why in the hell I cannot use prehistoric code with today tools".

Cheers
---
Daniel
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #48 on: April 03, 2016, 06:17:15 am »
I was referring to "end user" in the general sense. If I write a library for example, then the end user might be another programmer.
 

Offline f1rmb

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  • Posts: 180
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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #49 on: April 03, 2016, 06:27:44 am »
I was referring to "end user" in the general sense. If I write a library for example, then the end user might be another programmer.
Okay.

Well, and if you break the API of your library, for any reason (security, cleanup, nonsense, name it), it's up to the dev to update his code to comply with yours changes. If he don't want to, it's his problem, not yours.

Backward compatibility is just utopia. You can maintain it for a while, but one day you can't anymore, because things evolves or new features should be added, or devs find a nicer and cleaner API. You cannot leave 2 or 3 (or more) pretty similar functions because of backward compatibility, at a given time it become totally unmaintainable, and will confuse the new devs who want to use your library.

Cheers.
---
Daniel
 


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