Author Topic: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux  (Read 29324 times)

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Offline Howardlong

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #50 on: April 03, 2016, 06:39:42 am »
I was referring to "end user" in the general sense. If I write a library for example, then the end user might be another programmer.
Okay.

Well, and if you break the API of your library, for any reason (security, cleanup, nonsense, name it), it's up to the dev to update his code to comply with yours changes. If he don't want to, it's his problem, not yours.

Backward compatibility is just utopia. You can maintain it for a while, but one day you can't anymore, because things evolves or new features should be added, or devs find a nicer and cleaner API. You cannot leave 2 or 3 (or more) pretty similar functions because of backward compatibility, at a given time it become totally unmaintainable, and will confuse the new devs who want to use your library.

Cheers.
---
Daniel

And what of your end users? How frequently do you want to change your "stuff" rendering it incompatible for others?

There is absolutely nothing utopian about wanting to maintain backwards compatibility within reason, it's common sense.

Doesn't it irritate you when you go into your supermarket and they switched the shelves around every few weeks? Some supermarkets have either reduced the frequency or stopped engaging in this practice because they found it was counter productive, pissing off and disenfranchising their customers.

Again, my point is that the right balance between backwards compatibility and tinkerers deprecating things hasn't been struck in Linux.

 

Offline f1rmb

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #51 on: April 03, 2016, 06:47:43 am »
I was referring to "end user" in the general sense. If I write a library for example, then the end user might be another programmer.
Okay.

Well, and if you break the API of your library, for any reason (security, cleanup, nonsense, name it), it's up to the dev to update his code to comply with yours changes. If he don't want to, it's his problem, not yours.

Backward compatibility is just utopia. You can maintain it for a while, but one day you can't anymore, because things evolves or new features should be added, or devs find a nicer and cleaner API. You cannot leave 2 or 3 (or more) pretty similar functions because of backward compatibility, at a given time it become totally unmaintainable, and will confuse the new devs who want to use your library.

Cheers.
---
Daniel

And what of your end users? How frequently do you want to change your "stuff" rendering it incompatible for others?

There is absolutely nothing utopian about wanting to maintain backwards compatibility within reason, it's common sense.

Doesn't it irritate you when you go into your supermarket and they switched the shelves around every few weeks? Some supermarkets have either reduced the frequency or stopped engaging in this practice because they found it was counter productive, pissing off and disenfranchising their customers.

Again, my point is that the right balance between backwards compatibility and tinkerers deprecating things hasn't been struck in Linux.
Supermarket are commercial companies, GNU softwares, Linux and softwares I wrote aren't.
And this happen also all the time with commercial softwares, one day a major version is released, and it's purely not compatible with the previous one.
For API, when a breakage is planified,  you start to release your API with some functions tagged as deprecated.

This is how the dev world works, like it or not

---
Daniel
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 06:58:32 am by f1rmb »
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #52 on: April 03, 2016, 07:44:38 am »
f1rmb:
Quote
That is how the dev world works, like it or not

That is not how the dev works works if you want to make a living out of it, I can assure you! There is nothing utopian about wanting a reasonable level of backwards compatibility, it's common sense.

As I said, I've been at this since the 70s, I know exactly how it works, and the dev world you describe isn't mine.

My point is and always has been that there is a balance and Linux on the desktop is often too chaotic due to too many well meaning changes without regard to the effect on end users.

If you don't care at all about backwards compatibility, as you've stated ("Backward compatibility is just utopia") then that's fine, but that isn't what real programmers, designers and architects do, all you're doing is tinkering.

In the end, it sounds like you are actually arguing my case and we are agreeing that Linux tends to deprecate things and renders documentation out of date more rapidly than paid-for solutions, something else I've been saying all along.


 

Offline f1rmb

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #53 on: April 03, 2016, 08:44:48 am »
f1rmb:
Quote
That is how the dev world works, like it or not

That is not how the dev works works if you want to make a living out of it, I can assure you! There is nothing utopian about wanting a reasonable level of backwards compatibility, it's common sense.

As I said, I've been at this since the 70s, I know exactly how it works, and the dev world you describe isn't mine.

My point is and always has been that there is a balance and Linux on the desktop is often too chaotic due to too many well meaning changes without regard to the effect on end users.

If you don't care at all about backwards compatibility, as you've stated ("Backward compatibility is just utopia") then that's fine, but that isn't what real programmers, designers and architects do, all you're doing is tinkering.

In the end, it sounds like you are actually arguing my case and we are agreeing that Linux tends to deprecate things and renders documentation out of date more rapidly than paid-for solutions, something else I've been saying all along.

For me, it looks like you've never get involved in OSS dev at all.
Software (software, libraries) versioning is used, you cannot break API between minor versions.
If you introduce an API breakage, the major version should be increased.
About the documentation, dev find that boring, I know. In OSS projects, it's quite rare to get people dedicated to documentation, and devs prefer to focus on the code itself. But there are solutions, like doxygen (I use it intensively, since it extracts and build the documention from sources).

But you know, everything in this world evoles, and become backwards incompatible. Look, humans aren't backwards compatible themselves (can you imagine surviving in the prehistoric era ? Will you blame your ancestors for this ? I guess not).

As software point of view, it's the same problem; if you design a software that supports some kind of existing hardware devices, one day a new device will be created and it will turns out that you cannot add its support without introducing huge changes in your software. The dilemna is, should I just ignore this device,  (and let some other dev create a similar software than yours, supporting the new device and the next ones), or should I made the needed changes, even if it breaks the backwards compatibilty ?

This is why I think backwards compatibility (at any price) is utopia. For sure, backwards compatibility breakage should be used ONLY when it's really necessary, but sometimes you have no other choice (and as a programmer point of view, it's always painful to change everything, rewriting working code, and so on). And for your information, I'm also living out the software I write.

So, the evolution leaves two choices: be part of it (with its side effects), or die. The perfection doesn't exists.

---
Daniel

 

Offline legacy

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #54 on: April 03, 2016, 11:42:23 am »
My point is and always has been that there is a balance and Linux on the desktop is often too chaotic due to too many well meaning changes without regard to the effect on end users.

I agree
 

Offline Earendil

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #55 on: April 03, 2016, 12:56:00 pm »
As I said, I wasn't whining, I was making a statement of fact which you've further confirmed, that there is a trend among open source deveopers to build what they think are bigger and brighter things at the expense of existing functionality, with little consideration on the impact to end users. My point is that the balance in the Linux world is skewed too far in this direction, and as such makes it a turn off for your average end user.
Actually I tend to find that the most bright and knowledgeable professional software engineers prefer Linux as a development environment over Windows. Those of us who actually make a living developing large-scale (multi-millions of lines) software systems understand the limitations and benefits of Linux. I agree that the average clueless occasional programmer ("end user" in this case) should use Windows and Visual Studio or other commercial IDE. It's not a loss for the open-source world. We instead prefer to focus on cutting edge new technology.

It's a bit like those Windows based high-end oscilloscopes. They're designed to fulfill a specific need. They might not be pretty or very usable for day to day work but do serve a purpose in the hands of professionals.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 12:57:52 pm by Earendil »
 

Offline legacy

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #56 on: April 03, 2016, 01:20:16 pm »
It's a bit like those Windows based high-end oscilloscopes

umm, I think those products are good because of the software the can run, e.g. matlab, lab view, ...
things that cannot run on linux
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #57 on: April 03, 2016, 01:40:07 pm »
As I said, I wasn't whining, I was making a statement of fact which you've further confirmed, that there is a trend among open source deveopers to build what they think are bigger and brighter things at the expense of existing functionality, with little consideration on the impact to end users. My point is that the balance in the Linux world is skewed too far in this direction, and as such makes it a turn off for your average end user.
Actually I tend to find that the most bright and knowledgeable professional software engineers prefer Linux as a development environment over Windows. Those of us who actually make a living developing large-scale (multi-millions of lines) software systems understand the limitations and benefits of Linux. I agree that the average clueless occasional programmer ("end user" in this case) should use Windows and Visual Studio or other commercial IDE. It's not a loss for the open-source world. We instead prefer to focus on cutting edge new technology.

It's a bit like those Windows based high-end oscilloscopes. They're designed to fulfill a specific need. They might not be pretty or very usable for day to day work but do serve a purpose in the hands of professionals.

Between yourself and f1rmb you've summed it up perfectly, but also added a further facet in that you don't care about your end users, and even hold them in contempt, which is rather at odds with your claim that you "make a living" from it.

So in short, as I understand it, developing OSS is about:

O tinkering with new stuff only because the old stuff has no value or interest to you;
O changing stuff with little or no consideration for the implications;
O no peer review;
O not documenting changes appropriately for your end users;
O breaking what worked before;
O holding your end users and consumers in contempt.

Thankfully, I think we're all pretty much in agreement then  :)
 

Offline f1rmb

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #58 on: April 03, 2016, 02:08:01 pm »
As I said, I wasn't whining, I was making a statement of fact which you've further confirmed, that there is a trend among open source deveopers to build what they think are bigger and brighter things at the expense of existing functionality, with little consideration on the impact to end users. My point is that the balance in the Linux world is skewed too far in this direction, and as such makes it a turn off for your average end user.
Actually I tend to find that the most bright and knowledgeable professional software engineers prefer Linux as a development environment over Windows. Those of us who actually make a living developing large-scale (multi-millions of lines) software systems understand the limitations and benefits of Linux. I agree that the average clueless occasional programmer ("end user" in this case) should use Windows and Visual Studio or other commercial IDE. It's not a loss for the open-source world. We instead prefer to focus on cutting edge new technology.

It's a bit like those Windows based high-end oscilloscopes. They're designed to fulfill a specific need. They might not be pretty or very usable for day to day work but do serve a purpose in the hands of professionals.

Between yourself and f1rmb you've summed it up perfectly, but also added a further facet in that you don't care about your end users, and even hold them in contempt, which is rather at odds with your claim that you "make a living" from it.

So in short, as I understand it, developing OSS is about:

O tinkering with new stuff only because the old stuff has no value or interest to you;
O changing stuff with little or no consideration for the implications;
O no peer review;
O not documenting changes appropriately for your end users;
O breaking what worked before;
O holding your end users and consumers in contempt.

Thankfully, I think we're all pretty much in agreement then  :)

"When the sage points at the moon, the fool looks at his finger."

You just look really decided to not read (I don't even mention understand) explanations that people gave you...
Sorry, I've no more free time for you, I'm busy tuning some APIs with my chainsaw ATM.

---
Daniel
 

Offline legacy

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #59 on: April 03, 2016, 03:36:07 pm »
kernel 2.6.26: 219 mixed implicit and normal rules & deprecated syntax

interesting  :D :D :D
 

Offline MT

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #60 on: April 03, 2016, 03:40:00 pm »
I use so old win software's and computer hardware i have problems being "forward" compatible! Microsoft tells me to upgrade everything all the time, i just turn that annoyance OFF!. :)
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #61 on: April 03, 2016, 03:46:15 pm »
Actually I tend to find that the most bright and knowledgeable professional software engineers prefer Linux as a development environment over Windows.
i think you are correct there... as a "development environment". a big "built in OS" (with probably a big whole Visual Studio) IDE. maybe to avoid confusion, may we change the term from "Linux OS" to "Linux IDE"?
http://www.extropia.com/tutorials/misc/opensourcebiz.html
"generating profit from product's halos"
linux server, linux smartphone etc etc... people are buying server space and a smartphone, not directly the "linux OS". just like a stink programmer profiting from a Software that run in Windows (people are buying software), the product halo of Ms Visual Studio. thats what i understand.

It's a bit like those Windows based high-end oscilloscopes. They're designed to fulfill a specific need. They might not be pretty or very usable for day to day work but do serve a purpose in the hands of professionals.
i just wonder is there a succesfull linux DSO? google says none.

Those of us who actually make a living developing large-scale (multi-millions of lines) software systems understand the limitations and benefits of Linux
maybe you are a server or website engineer? or a smartphone designer? care to mention the "multi-millions of lines"? even though we are bunch of non-potential customers.

We instead prefer to focus on cutting edge new technology.
what cutting edge technology? i believe its not directly related to an OS or software development "topology", is it?. maybe you are NASA engineer working on a cutting edge space ship, but its just a linux's halo. but if the engineer switch to Windows next year, then the space ship will become instantaneously a Window's halo. is that what you mean "cutting edge"?

otoh, Windows per se, is a family and individual's (incl software programmers that run directly in it) OS where they can enjoy directly or indirectly (indirectly just as in linux business model above). and for multi-billions lines of non-technical (OS-blind) profitiers, small private companies that dealt with services or products thats not requiring an OS in it, requiring many devices connected to the OS and be compatible and supported in many years to come without the hassle of recompiling drivers. one may not be a multi-millions business but... one doesnt have to be a programmer/system guru to make the small profit, directly or indirecly. "Backward compatibility is just utopia"? no its not, esp if one has spent multi thousands of equipments (peripherals connected to an OS). and a stink programmer may survive in Windows, i'm not sure in linux.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 03:49:47 pm by Mechatrommer »
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Offline jancumps

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #62 on: April 03, 2016, 04:00:16 pm »

...


i just wonder is there a succesfull linux DSO? google says none.

...

You've got us all silenced there, with a very strong argument.
 

Offline legacy

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #63 on: April 03, 2016, 04:00:56 pm »
Code: [Select]
BOOT_TARGETS = zImage zImage.initrd uImage zImage% dtbImage% treeImage.% cuImage.% simpleImage.%

PHONY += $(BOOT_TARGETS)

boot := arch/$(ARCH)/boot

$(BOOT_TARGETS): vmlinux
        $(Q)$(MAKE) ARCH=ppc64 $(build)=$(boot) $(patsubst %,$(boot)/%,$@)

the above was perfectly working with make.2008
while make.2016 says that it's deprecated
and "$(BOOT_TARGETS)" is expanded into a LIST[]

this un-evolving make: it really makes sense  :D
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #64 on: April 03, 2016, 04:22:03 pm »
this un-evolving make: it really makes sense  :D
actually what this thread is about? a linux hate? or a linux help me fix? you said in the title its fixed.

But if you don't believe someone who does large scale software engineering professionally then it's your problem.
dont get us wrong, we do. google android is the biggest thing. and many more "delusive non-accessible" to mortal companies. but what makes linux being outnumbered is because many of these non-os-techies mortals, that is if, we are talking about PC. for smartphone for eg, its the other way around, i believe. thanks to Samsung.
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #65 on: April 03, 2016, 04:48:48 pm »
I work with people in (and I often work from) Canary Wharf in London. I won't say more and I don't need to say more because this is not about me. As I stated before I do know what I'm talking about, it's my job. I've no reason not to tell the truth. But if you don't believe someone who does large scale software engineering professionally then it's your problem. And as I said before no one stops you buying Windows and commercial IDEs so you don't need to use Linux.

I don't see the point discussing this topic further.

Indeed, and I certainly don't disagree with you. What you may not know is I too work in enterprise level software and have done for over 25 years in the finance sector principally designing and troubleshooting trading systems based in London either in the City or out at Canary Wharf (if I have to!) You may well use some of my software, and interface with one of the numerous systems I've architected or fixed over the years, I don't know. I may well use some of yours.

These days you pretty much have to have your toes in all waters. To blindly close your mind to technologies is not going to help you, you must be open minded. What this has shown me has confirmed in black and white what I was stating, I'm sorry you don't like the conclusion, but software where I come from is not design by tail-wagging-the-dog, it is business driven.

I'll continue to remain using the main OSes as I have done for many years. In the enterprise where systems integration is everything, you simply can't have things being deprecated on a whim, everything is standards-based, even of some of those standards are proprietary, if you work in that field I am absolutely certain you'll agree.
 

Offline legacy

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #66 on: April 03, 2016, 05:09:47 pm »
actually what this thread is about? a linux hate? or a linux help me fix? you said in the title its fixed.

I am able to provide two solutions to my customer, in order to support this "sand point" board
both of them are limited to kernel 2.6.19 and gcc v4.1.2
everything else is NOT working and/or it needs more effort and time

in short, I am fine, thanks  :D

I was just commenting how crazy are these tools by GNU (make? gcc?)
and how chaotic are the linux sources

 

Offline Karel

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #67 on: April 03, 2016, 05:28:44 pm »
I was just commenting how crazy are these tools by GNU (make? gcc?)
and how chaotic are the linux sources

They are so chaotic that no manufacturer wants to use it, not in their smartphones, not in their televisions,
not in their wifi-routers, not in their super computers, not in their navigation systems,
not in their ...








The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 

Offline Earendil

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #68 on: April 03, 2016, 05:47:37 pm »
These days you pretty much have to have your toes in all waters. To blindly close your mind to technologies is not going to help you, you must be open minded. What this has shown me has confirmed in black and white what I was stating, I'm sorry you don't like the conclusion, but software where I come from is not design by tail-wagging-the-dog, it is business driven.
You're stating the obvious.
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #69 on: April 03, 2016, 05:55:46 pm »
both of them are limited to kernel 2.6.19 and gcc v4.1.2
so the solution is not to upgrade? thats understandable. i'm not saying linux specific, the rule hold with windows, want a stable platform? dont upgrade. specialty devices such as smartphones, televisions, wifi-routers, super computers, navigation systems are like that, not an OS-upgradable device without hassle. i guess my PC is a specialty device, but unlike the other specialty devices, my PC is subjected to OS-obsoletion-damnation. but i believe with an upgrade including the latest, i can still use most of my peripherals, if not all. as i beginning to get new peripherals that is Win10 approved but also still compatible with my current XP.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 11:10:07 pm by Mechatrommer »
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Offline legacy

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #70 on: April 03, 2016, 06:20:13 pm »
so the solution is not to upgrade? thats understandable.

I "might" upgrade to kernel 3.* or kernel 4.*, but it will require more time than the budget that my customer has allocated.
time and effort is the problem I have

I mean I have a deadline, and I have to
  • fix the hardware, I have to complete a PCI-FPGA board, there is mistake in the PSU section
  • fix the VHDL code, because my customer wants a customization
  • fix the firmware, because DINK32 (made by Freescale) has a bug, which limits the amount of (soldered) ram to the half
  • fix the rootfs, because my customer wants uclibc instead of glibc
  • fix the kernel module, it creates a bridge between the userspace (/dev/fpga) and the hardware
  • add a few examples to show my customer how he should use the fpga
  • provide a working toolchain, able to cross compile everything for the target (including the linux-kernel)

all of these steps MUST be completed for the end of the next week, thus I have no time to care about "linux" and "gcc"

upgrading and supporting kernel > 2.6.19 requires TOO MUCH effort
I can allocate such an activity ONLY if my customer will allocate a budget for that
 

Offline Karel

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #71 on: April 03, 2016, 06:34:14 pm »
I mean I have a deadline, and I have to
blahblahblah...
all of these steps MUST be completed for the end of the next week,

Not the fault of Linux. Blame yourself for accepting a job with such deadlines.

The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 

Offline legacy

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #72 on: April 03, 2016, 07:23:06 pm »
want a stable platform? dont upgrade.

yes, there is also another motivation, confirmed to me by the last build-up I have experimented 5 minutes ago
Unfortunately everything > 2.6.23 has no support and comes into the problem of enabling the mmu.

The sandpoint needs a special BSP, otherwise, after the initial boot, part of the Linux finishes setting up BATs and enables the mmu the address translation is not done properly, thus, when the kernel jumps to 0xC0000000, it jumps to physical address 0xC0000000, and it crashes there.

This special BoardSupportPackage (which depends on DINK32) is very hard to be forwarded from 2.4.* to 2.6, and from 2.6.19 to > 2.6.23  :palm: :palm: :palm:

I can fix it, but …  I suspect it will take 4-5 working days (or 2 weeks), also my BDI2000 with Codewarrior does not support mmu.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #73 on: April 03, 2016, 07:44:07 pm »
I was referring to "end user" in the general sense. If I write a library for example, then the end user might be another programmer.
Well, and if you break the API of your library, for any reason (security, cleanup, nonsense, name it), it's up to the dev to update his code to comply with yours changes. If he don't want to, it's his problem, not yours.

Backward compatibility is just utopia. You can maintain it for a while, but one day you can't anymore, because things evolves or new features should be added, or devs find a nicer and cleaner API. You cannot leave 2 or 3 (or more) pretty similar functions because of backward compatibility, at a given time it become totally unmaintainable, and will confuse the new devs who want to use your library.
You can always apply bugs-causing-crashes and security fixes to older versions. This is easy if you use a version control system where you can push changes between versions. WxWidgets for example can be compiled for supporting various versions (and buggyness levels) of the API so old code which relies on certain workarounds keeps working. As Legacy already wrote changing to a newer version of a library is likely to trigger upgrades in several other parts of the system which turns a small change into a huge project. You really can't sell it to a client that adding a simple extra feature needs a complete overhaul + re-testing of the software which costs them tens of thousands of dollars.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online CatalinaWOW

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Re: [solved] I really HATE gnu and linux
« Reply #74 on: April 03, 2016, 07:54:46 pm »
I mean I have a deadline, and I have to
blahblahblah...
all of these steps MUST be completed for the end of the next week,

Not the fault of Linux. Blame yourself for accepting a job with such deadlines.

You are displacing the problem.  If the customer were billed for doing all of the work and taking the time to do this it would be the customer complaining about the expense, and if the customer had an itemized bill they would be complaining about Linux.

This dedication to obsolescence is unique to software and electronics.  Even though it is a suboptimal design the edison base for light bulbs has survived transition through CFL and onto LED.  Can't you just imagine the response of the world if they were told that all of their lamps and fixtures were deprecated.  (It is certainly possible that such deprecation would have been desirable for technical reasons.  Think of the possibilities.  Heat sinking.  Color temperature setting.  Improved safety.....)  That they were just whining when they complained about the cost of replacement.
 


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