Author Topic: PIC equivalent of the M328P ?  (Read 16350 times)

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Offline glatocha

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Re: PIC equivalent of the M328P ?
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2013, 11:19:47 am »


from: http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1280803

Still there is a lot of space for 8bit. Maybe as "intelligent" peripherals for 32bit, but will see.
 

Offline madires

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Re: PIC equivalent of the M328P ?
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2013, 11:51:52 am »
To judge which group a programmer is in, offer him a cup of "java". If he cringes violently, he's in the former group. :P

Good code needs strong coffee  ^-^
 

Offline madires

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Re: PIC equivalent of the M328P ?
« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2013, 12:03:49 pm »
Still there is a lot of space for 8bit. Maybe as "intelligent" peripherals for 32bit, but will see.

I think it's more about selecting the right MCU to solve a problem than throwing the latest and greatest at the problem. Or would you use a big fat IGBT to switch a 20mA LED?
 

Offline glatocha

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Re: PIC equivalent of the M328P ?
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2013, 12:15:50 pm »
Exactly.
On the other hand. If you look at AVR, PIC16/18, MSP430. I think somehow they were always in the same basket. Even if MSP is 16bit

So I guess for most app, those ALU size is not so important.
 

Offline westfw

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Re: PIC equivalent of the M328P ?
« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2013, 07:52:44 am »
Quote
http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1280803
I don't think I trust a "survey" that lumps together 4-bit and 8-bit microcontrollers, to have said anything meaningful about 8bit micros.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: PIC equivalent of the M328P ?
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2013, 11:00:56 am »
Still there is a lot of space for 8bit. Maybe as "intelligent" peripherals for 32bit, but will see.

I think it's more about selecting the right MCU to solve a problem than throwing the latest and greatest at the problem. Or would you use a big fat IGBT to switch a 20mA LED?
Its more efficient to specialise on one MCU range from one supplier than to use several different MCUs and know little about each of them. If you choose ARM then you can choose from 8 pin DIP devices to 200+ pin BGA devices without needing different tools, programmers or different libraries. The only exception is low power which is where MSP430 comes in.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline madires

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Re: PIC equivalent of the M328P ?
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2013, 01:36:34 pm »
I think it's more about selecting the right MCU to solve a problem than throwing the latest and greatest at the problem. Or would you use a big fat IGBT to switch a 20mA LED?
Its more efficient to specialise on one MCU range from one supplier than to use several different MCUs and know little about each of them. If you choose ARM then you can choose from 8 pin DIP devices to 200+ pin BGA devices without needing different tools, programmers or different libraries. The only exception is low power which is where MSP430 comes in.

Of course everyone has his favourite, well known and convenient MCU. But based on project constraints we have to choose another MCU sometimes. And I bet, you had another favourite before working with ARM :-)
 

Online nctnico

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Re: PIC equivalent of the M328P ?
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2013, 05:39:49 pm »
Except for low power I'd like to hear constraints which rule out ARM... Thats the whole beauty of today's world. You don't need to make do with crappy & slow architectures which are just in the way of getting work done. I have build projects around Z80 processors, 8051, Hitachi H8/300(0), 68HC11 and probably some others I have forgotten. Nowadays I can do 95% of the projects with ARM based controllers and if I need low power then I use an MSP430. Maybe some projects are so simple I could get away with PIC, AVR, Attiny but those don't give any financial advantage. In most cases using an ARM has other benefits like fast PWM which make life much easier and strongly reduce external component count. For one of my customers I have developed a keypad with touch sensors. Because I can sample and process at relatively high speed there are only a few capacitors on the board. All the signal processing (anti-aliasing filtering) is done inside an ARM controller. I started the design with an I2C adc and analog comparators but the ARM controller is cheaper than the I2C ADC alone and the software people have less work if the ARM controller can deliver the data in a form which is directly useable. Last but not least the ARM controller is perfectly happy with 1.8V.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 06:09:19 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline amyk

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Re: PIC equivalent of the M328P ?
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2013, 09:19:36 pm »
Except for low power I'd like to hear constraints which rule out ARM...
...and cost.
 

Offline westfw

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Re: PIC equivalent of the M328P ?
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2013, 10:44:29 pm »
Quote
Its more efficient to specialise on one MCU range from one supplier than to use several different MCUs
Yes.  Personally, I really like learning about different MCUs, but I'm finding it very frustrating how "scatter brained" that leaves me.

Quote
If you choose ARM then you can choose from 8 pin DIP devices to 200+ pin BGA devices without needing different tools, programmers or different libraries.
Quote
Unfortunately, this is pretty much an illusion.  All your experience on the 8-pin NXP CM0+ chips is going to be pretty worthless on a STM CM4 chip, and that in turn will be useless on the CA8 system running droid or linux (and that won't help much on those iPad/iPhone apps.)
The (recommended) tools aren't the same (they COULD be, sort of, in the same sense that those tools also work on AVR and MSP430.  (gcc and eclipse, right?  No problem!  Hah!))  The libraries aren't the same (except for the tiny core of CMSIS stuff, and everybody copies posix/etc), and even the philosophy changes drastically, especially if there is an OS involved.)

That's one of the reasons I mentioned the PIC24 and PIC32 chips over the PIC16/PIC18.  If you get to the point where "I have a chip with a surplus of memories that I can program in C without awful compromises", you've probably passed the biggest step toward "everything is the same" that you'll see.  I'd put ARM, MSP430, PIC24, PIC32, AVR, and MIPS over that line, but probably not PIC18...
 

Online nctnico

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Re: PIC equivalent of the M328P ?
« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2013, 11:14:04 pm »
Except for low power I'd like to hear constraints which rule out ARM...
...and cost.
ARM controllers can beat or match the prices of most 8 bit controllers. But be sure to look at the entire cost of the design and not just the part itself! NXP has announced the new LPC800 device (already sampling) will start at 39 cents.

@westfw: you have to stick with the same supplier ofcourse. Unfortunately every supplier uses their own peripherals. I have been using ARM7TDMI devices from NXP for many years and when the new Cortex Mx devices from NXP came I could use 99% of my existing code. IOW: the peripherals are mostly the same which NXP did on purpose. But then again, the peripherals from NXP already where superb. I once made a project with an STR700 (also ARM7TDMI) from ST and the peripherals in that microcontroller are a complete joke.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 11:22:25 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline jebcom

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Re: PIC equivalent of the M328P ?
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2013, 02:36:19 am »
Quote
NXP has announced the new LPC800 device (already sampling) will start at 39 cents.
This is very interesting:

I wonder how many PIC part numbers each LPC800 can replace.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 02:37:58 am by jebcom »
 

Offline westfw

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Re: PIC equivalent of the M328P ?
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2013, 05:36:39 am »
I do have a bit of an aversion to 28pin microcontrollers that end up spending 7+ pins on power, 3 pins on dedicated functions (OSC, RST), and 4+ pins for JTAG ("You can turn off JTAG, but you might not ever be able to program the chip again.")  (The particular chip I'm talking about here is the LM3S102; one of the very first CM3 aimed at "microcontroller applications."  Manufacturers have gotten better since then; the latest NXP8xx series chips look quite reasonable.)
 

Offline madires

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Re: PIC equivalent of the M328P ?
« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2013, 11:36:40 am »
Except for low power I'd like to hear constraints which rule out ARM...

Here we go:
- We got a million of MCU X in the warehouse.
- We got a strategic partnership/alliance with MCU vendor X.
- The boss' new sportscar was paid by MCU vendor X.
- The boss' wife says that MCU X got a cute logo.
 

Offline Rufus

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Re: PIC equivalent of the M328P ?
« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2013, 12:13:11 pm »
Quote
NXP has announced the new LPC800 device (already sampling) will start at 39 cents.
This is very interesting:

I wonder how many PIC part numbers each LPC800 can replace.

If you are talking about the switch matrix many Microchip parts have had peripheral pin select for ages.

If you are talking about the tool I just find it depressing that anyone thought it was worth spending time developing or making a video bragging about it. The generated code is gibberish.
 

Offline JTR

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Re: PIC equivalent of the M328P ?
« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2013, 01:56:03 pm »
I do have a bit of an aversion to 28pin microcontrollers that end up spending 7+ pins on power, 3 pins on dedicated functions (OSC, RST), and 4+ pins for JTAG ("You can turn off JTAG, but you might not ever be able to program the chip again.")  (The particular chip I'm talking about here is the LM3S102; one of the very first CM3 aimed at "microcontroller applications."  Manufacturers have gotten better since then; the latest NXP8xx series chips look quite reasonable.)

Whatever you do then, don't try to use the 28-pin PIC32MX in USB OTG configuration.  :scared:
 

Online nctnico

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Re: PIC equivalent of the M328P ?
« Reply #41 on: July 10, 2013, 03:28:12 pm »
Except for low power I'd like to hear constraints which rule out ARM...

Here we go:
- We got a million of MCU X in the warehouse.
- We got a strategic partnership/alliance with MCU vendor X.
- The boss' new sportscar was paid by MCU vendor X.
- The boss' wife says that MCU X got a cute logo.
- Scrap 'm. Its cheaper anyway.
- A good reason for vendor Y to get you a better deal
- Vendor Y can provide a big boat AND a sportscar AND a boob job for the boss' mistress
- How about the boss' mistress?
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline fcb

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Re: PIC equivalent of the M328P ?
« Reply #42 on: July 10, 2013, 03:40:24 pm »
Reminds me of a tale an FAE told me many years back, it went (allegedly) something like this:

***** introduces new PIC killer micro (**?), and gives £10K to anyone that designs it into a volume product - to help get existing products changed over from a PIC (16C54?) ***** deliberatly designed the ** micro to have the same pin-out but spun through 180. The theory is you chuck out the PIC and put in the ** the other way round.

All good, until ***** couldn't deliver on a new BIG contract for a household white goods manufacturer due to some process issue or other.  Along rides Microchip, suggests turning their part through 180 and saved the day...

http://www.electron.plus Power Analysers, VI Signature Testers, Voltage References. G1YWC radio ham.
 

Offline jebcom

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Re: PIC equivalent of the M328P ?
« Reply #43 on: July 10, 2013, 05:48:03 pm »
Quote
If you are talking about the switch matrix many Microchip parts have had peripheral pin select for ages.

If you are talking about the tool I just find it depressing that anyone thought it was worth spending time developing or making a video bragging about it. The generated code is gibberish.
With the PIC parts that I've used, each pin has certain functions that you can select. I don't see it as a matrix. I thought it was interesting in that I might be able to avoid some of the pin function conflicts that I've run into with PICs. I can't always get the combination of peripheral functions that I need. Maybe the NXP stuff is just marketing hype and it's no more flexible than PICs; I don't know.

The tool reminds me of the configuration tools that came out in the early days of PowerPC. If you didn't want to make project out of just getting the thing configured, you could buy a tool to make it quicker. But you need to trust the tool and its comments; if you want to make a change, go back to the tool. You can ignore the gibberish and understand the comments, but that's a personal preference. But of course if somebody changes the random-looking hex value without updating comments, you're hosed.

 

Online nctnico

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Re: PIC equivalent of the M328P ?
« Reply #44 on: July 10, 2013, 05:52:39 pm »
Reminds me of a tale an FAE told me many years back, it went (allegedly) something like this:
***** introduces new PIC killer micro (**?), and gives £10K to anyone that designs it into a volume product - to help get existing products changed over from a PIC (16C54?) ***** deliberatly designed the ** micro to have the same pin-out but spun through 180. The theory is you chuck out the PIC and put in the ** the other way round.
Putting paperware or devices still in their sampling state in a design is never a good idea. Better wait until companies like Farnell, Digikey, etc have the parts in stock c.q. for sale. A good electronics designers knows that (or will learn the hard way).
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Rufus

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Re: PIC equivalent of the M328P ?
« Reply #45 on: July 10, 2013, 06:15:47 pm »
Quote
If you are talking about the switch matrix many Microchip parts have had peripheral pin select for ages.
With the PIC parts that I've used, each pin has certain functions that you can select. I don't see it as a matrix.

A tedious and 4 year old presentation on PPS from Microchip



The first parts had it in 2007.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: PIC equivalent of the M328P ?
« Reply #46 on: July 10, 2013, 08:55:11 pm »
Thats pretty late. The H8/300 and H8/3000 series from Hitachi already had multifunction pins and I used those in 1997.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 


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