Keil uVision - so good but so expensive

[Kjelt]

Do you use it for commercial applications, eg earn money with it?
If not, you should contact them stating this and asking for a pc locked perpetual version or something similar.
If you are really interested that might give very high discounts, a friend of mine got 40-50% on a IAR license under these conditions and without any support etc. etc.
In my case I would find a 50% discount still too expensive for hobby use.

[Howardlong]

Commercial, which is precisely why I’ve avoided it for so long, knowing how much it cost all those years ago.

I realise there’s a school of thought that says it’s a false economy to resist. I am just looking at it in terms of what it would offer me long term, and the cost of that, compared to other options. I have the same battle of thoughts over Matlab pricing too. Neither offer me particularly good value for money considering how often I would be using them.

[Kjelt]

Then actually you should earn the investment back in the price of your product or service.
Raise the price of your product or your hourly wage such that in 2 years the software is paid back.
I know that is probably also not an option, but it is how it should be done 

[Howardlong]

Then actually you should earn the investment back in the price of your product or service.
Raise the price of your product or your hourly wage such that in 2 years the software is paid back.
I know that is probably also not an option, but it is how it should be done 

I am torn, but I’m also tight! It’s the first time I’ve used it in about thirteen years. I don’t want to be tied to an expensive platform if I need to do a small bug fix or feature change in three or four years time. Fundsmentally, I still just don’t see it as value for money compared to the alternatives that I battle with.

My OP was as much about how crap vendor produced IDEs are in comparison as it was the sticker shock. The $10k could be spent on far more interesting things, like a bit of TE with knobs and buttons and flashing lights on it!

[nctnico]

I don’t want to be tied to an expensive platform if I need to do a small bug fix or feature change in three or four years time.

That is what puts me off about software with a subscription model. If I buy software it must available to me forever.

BTW there are other IDEs besides Eclipse which may offer better performance.

[Kjelt]

They do offer a perpetual license if you had read the post on the end of the previous page, which has to be saluted since most companies no longer do this.

[Howardlong]

They do offer a perpetual license if you had read the post on the end of the previous page, which has to be saluted since most companies no longer do this.

Indeed, although it’s perpetual only in so much as you get one year of updates and support. Beyond that, you’ll have to keep and maintain a working system, or hope that their licensing server doesn’t disappear if you need to install elsewhere. “Perpetual” isn’t necessarily quite what it suggests.

[Kjelt]

Ok yes I remember, in my previous company we had three versions of the Keil compiler and IDE so we could compile for old products and did not want to spent a lot of time fixing changed things like optimization settings or worst case the entire projectsettings, for each version you had to request a different license key.
So you probably get a key without expiration date but only for that computer. Updates and so are less of a concern unless there is a big bug in the version.

With IAR you can still get a dongle AFAIK, so you can use it on more than one computer but ofcourse not at the same time.
I still would like more software companies to do this but since dongles or the software that uses them were often hacked in the past the software companies got more and more restrictive and the good users/clients are screwed by that.

[Sal Ammoniac]

I am torn, but I’m also tight! It’s the first time I’ve used it in about thirteen years. I don’t want to be tied to an expensive platform if I need to do a small bug fix or feature change in three or four years time. Fundsmentally, I still just don’t see it as value for money compared to the alternatives that I battle with.

Have you ever tried Rowley CrossWorks? Several others have mentioned it on this thread, but you don't seem to have responded. It's only $1500 for a commercial license, so it's more palatable than Keil, plus it's from a UK company.

[Howardlong]

I am torn, but I’m also tight! It’s the first time I’ve used it in about thirteen years. I don’t want to be tied to an expensive platform if I need to do a small bug fix or feature change in three or four years time. Fundsmentally, I still just don’t see it as value for money compared to the alternatives that I battle with.

Have you ever tried Rowley CrossWorks? Several others have mentioned it on this thread, but you don't seem to have responded. It's only $1500 for a commercial license, so it's more palatable than Keil, plus it's from a UK company.

The reason I mentioned Keil uVision was that I happened to need to use it for one evaluation project where I was comparing a selection of Cortex M4F devices in the same market segment, and there happened to be a common set of examples for Keil available for the three dev boards to get me started. Like I say, I wasn’t looking forward to it, but I was very pleasantly surprised. Normally I expect such evaluations to take some time as it seems to be such a terribly difficult thing to provide tooling backwards compatibilty these days. As I mentioned earlier, TI gets a thumbs down for not having archived versions of Tivaware available. If the get-starting examples I’d had were for Rowley CrossWorks, I’d have used that. But you’re right, the pricing is far more palatable.

[Sal Ammoniac]

Do you use it for commercial applications, eg earn money with it?

Professional tools do indeed cost money, but it's generally a small expense in the overall budget. Around here the burdened cost of an embedded engineer is around $300,000 a year. A $5000 Keil license is only 1.6% of this, so in the overall scheme of things, the cost of Keil licenses is insignificant.

[Kjelt]

Around here the burdened cost of an embedded engineer is around $300,000 a year.

I am doing something wrong..... can I work from home? 

[NorthGuy]

Around here the burdened cost of an embedded engineer is around $300,000 a year.

I am doing something wrong..... can I work from home? 

Me too 

[Bassman59]

Around here the burdened cost of an embedded engineer is around $300,000 a year.

I am doing something wrong..... can I work from home? 

He's including the salary (which may be 1/3 of that), and all of the overhead, which includes not only employer-paid taxes, health insurance and retirement benefits, but also things people rarely think about. There's the cost of the space in the building where the engineer works, which includes heating and A/C, water, sewer, electricity, and so forth. Don't forget IT-related stuff -- computer workstation, networking infrastructure, servers, Internet access, phone system, etc.

[Kjelt]

Yes I know those calculations, and they fail miserably because they don't save $300k$ when they fire an engineer.
Actually even when they have no-one on the payroll except the janitor, the janitor costs $40000000 a year 
These are the calculations managers use to fire people while the net effect is 1/3 of the figures.

[NorthGuy]

He's including the salary (which may be 1/3 of that), and all of the overhead, which includes not only employer-paid taxes, health insurance and retirement benefits, but also things people rarely think about. There's the cost of the space in the building where the engineer works, which includes heating and A/C, water, sewer, electricity, and so forth. Don't forget IT-related stuff -- computer workstation, networking infrastructure, servers, Internet access, phone system, etc.

When you contract someone (as opposed to employing), it is up to the contractor to cover most (if not all) of these expenses.

[Bassman59]

He's including the salary (which may be 1/3 of that), and all of the overhead, which includes not only employer-paid taxes, health insurance and retirement benefits, but also things people rarely think about. There's the cost of the space in the building where the engineer works, which includes heating and A/C, water, sewer, electricity, and so forth. Don't forget IT-related stuff -- computer workstation, networking infrastructure, servers, Internet access, phone system, etc.

When you contract someone (as opposed to employing), it is up to the contractor to cover most (if not all) of these expenses.

Right, but Sal was most likely referring to direct employees when he used the term "burdened cost."

[ali_asadzadeh]

Torrents

[nctnico]

Torrents

Those are great for getting a version without the licensing crap but you still should pay.

[Kjelt]

Lots of those versions are drenched in malware, after a few weeks you can still pay but then to some bunch of hackers to unlock your entire PC.
It is just sad that there are almost no free non-commercial versions for hobbieists. Commercial companies should just pay up or switch to something else.

[krish2487]

Not to mention it is the wrong attitude for software.

Quote from: ali_asadzadeh on Today at 05:08:57 pm

Torrents

Sure you can get them, but you didn't pay for it..

Would you steal a drill or a hand tools from Walmart or similar because you need the tools to work on a project?? Or would you rather pay for a tool that fits within your budget, does the job you need it to?

So are softwares. they are tools to help a professional do his job.


Malware or not, it is the attitude thats fundamentally wrong.

[julianhigginson]

I am torn, but I’m also tight! It’s the first time I’ve used it in about thirteen years. I don’t want to be tied to an expensive platform if I need to do a small bug fix or feature change in three or four years time. Fundsmentally, I still just don’t see it as value for money compared to the alternatives that I battle with.

hopefully you will do plenty of other development in the same tool, during the years between finishing a project and then opening it up again for a feature update!

Assuming it works for all the platforms you are going to be using - you could have a single professional tool that handles all the dev you need, and you are familiar and quick with it because you just know it!

My OP was as much about how crap vendor produced IDEs are in comparison as it was the sticker shock. The $10k could be spent on far more interesting things, like a bit of TE with knobs and buttons and flashing lights on it!

Yes, it definitely could, but if you count how much it might cost in time to use cheaper options, learning whatever the free option is for every different thing you try to work on, maybe you could get more work done with this tool and then use money earned from that to buy more fun tools, too?

[benst]

+1 for Rowley CrossWorks. Been using it for 10 or 15 years now. Jtag debugging works well and fast. Great support too. Runs on Win/Linux/Mac.

They have a free evaluation version.

Ben