Kilobyte

[fourfathom]

All this thread proves is that when a new "standard" is established, it takes more than 20 years for the general public to even hear about it, never mind follow it.

I'm not too concerned with the general public, but with engineers and practitioners skilled in the art.  For my entire professional career a kilobyte has been understood to mean 1024 8-bit bytes, and a megabyte = 1024 * 1024 8-bit bytes.  Perhaps in some specialized corners of science and engineering these words have other meanings, but I've never heard them being used.

And for what it's worth a megabit per second = 1,000,000 bits/s.

Context is critical. Usage in the profession is what matters.  Let me know when kibibyte shows up in actual practice and I will consider changing my mind.

[IDEngineer]

For my entire professional career a kilobyte has been understood to mean 1024 8-bit bytes...

Yep!

...and a megabyte = 1024 * 1024 8-bit bytes.

Yep!

And for what it's worth a megabit per second = 1,000,000 bits/s.

Yep!

And $450K is exactly $450,000.00, not $460,800.00. I'm confident no one, ever, has argued that they're owed an extra 2.4% because of the trailing K. I'd love to watch the judge's face if someone tried to sue on that basis.

Context is critical. Let me know when kibibyte shows up in actual practice and I will consider changing my mind.

Precisely. This is a "solution" in search of a problem. To the layman, K = 1000. Only those in specific technical disciplines know there's another definition for "kilo" and they don't get confused precisely because they're in those specific technical disciplines. If it's considered a problem, it's a self-solving one by virtue of people understanding the context.

Thread over. There's literally nothing left to discuss. (Of course I thought that was true about three pages ago yet here we are on page 6.)

[Monkeh]

Thread over. There's literally nothing left to discuss.

There can in fact be no discussion with people unwilling to discuss. Congratulations, you 'win'.

[IDEngineer]

There can in fact be no discussion with people unwilling to discuss. Congratulations, you 'win'.

There's no "win" here. There was never even a legitimate controversy. The facts are self-evident, as was noted here multiple times.

[Monkeh]

There can in fact be no discussion with people unwilling to discuss. Congratulations, you 'win'.

There's no "win" here. There was never even a legitimate controversy. The facts are self-evident, as was noted here multiple times.

It just depends which set of facts you put weight in.

I put weight in established (little as you may like it), technically correct, unambiguous standards. You put weight in "We've always done it this way".

It took decades for people to stop using condenser as well. No doubt there were many vocal parties against the newfangled and unneccesary term of capacitor.

[IDEngineer]

You put weight in "We've always done it this way".

I put value on getting things done and not wasting time worrying about terminology that nobody gets wrong.

I have a saying: "Focus on the deliverable." Since "kilo" isn't broken (as conclusively proven by this thread), arguing about it is nothing more than a distraction from things that truly matter. From actual deliverables that employ people, ship product, and push the marker forward.

You're welcome to spend your time fighting the battles you select. As for me, I will continue to value actual accomplishment over pedantic arguments over non-problems. You took a cheap shot at my age a while back ("I appreciate these standards are a little newer than you"), but maybe the ability to properly prioritize is something that comes with age, eh? 

[Monkeh]

You took a cheap shot at my age a while back ("I appreciate these standards are a little newer than you"), but maybe the ability to properly prioritize is something that comes with age, eh? 

Ah, but with youth comes the ability to adapt, improve, and cast away the legacy of our stubborn predecessors.

I notice you ignored my valid point about other terminology which has been changed. I don't see that 'condenser' was 'broken' by your definition, and yet it was changed for clarity. It took about 50 years, but it's pretty much a dead term now. And eventually we'll be rid of your misuse of a prefix over two centuries old (along with the newer ones). It's just going to take a while.

[IDEngineer]

I notice you ignored my valid point about other terminology which has been changed.

It was a valid point, so it didn't need comment.

It took about 50 years, but it's pretty much a dead term now.

And as others observed herein, if and when these other prefixes become the norm, I and they will adopt them. But in the meantime, they're nothing more than a needless distraction from more important things. Demanding their use actually INCREASES confusion and wastes time, as in "WTF did you say?", when "kilobyte" would have been understood by everyone in the conversation. Even you, if you'll be honest enough to admit it.

Can you cite any examples of where kilo has truly been misunderstood? No one in six pages of this thread has shared such an incident. Why create delay and obfuscation when it's entirely unnecessary?

Edit: The fact that kilo continues to be used, without incident, provides the answer to the question of why kibi et. al haven't "caught on yet". If there was an actual problem, everyone would have adopted them by now. But there is no problem, so folks focus on getting their jobs done. There's a lesson in that.

[SparkyFX]

For my entire professional career a kilobyte has been understood to mean 1024 8-bit bytes, and a megabyte = 1024 * 1024 8-bit bytes.  Perhaps in some specialized corners of science and engineering these words have other meanings, but I've never heard them being used.

In the late 90s it was often stated as 8 bit, usually by the popularity of the personal computer, but when talking to people familiar with other platforms and technical docs you read more of words and word size which might happen to be 8 bit. Which means that a "byte", "word" or "character" itself contains enough uncertainty about it´s size in communication that it was pointless enough without any statement of platform and context. As programmer you need to take that into account.

Once you enter telecommunication topics, there never was a need for an 8 bit segmentation, so it is less used there.

In all cases you just need to know what you´re doing.

A similar kind of problem would be the amount of a "billion" in English vs. other languages.

[fourfathom]

In the late 90s it was often stated as 8 bit, usually by the popularity of the personal computer, but when talking to people familiar with other platforms and technical docs you read more of words and word size which might happen to be 8 bit. Which means that a "byte", "word" or "character" itself contains enough uncertainty about it´s size in communication that it was pointless enough without any statement of platform and context. As programmer you need to take that into account.

Once you enter telecommunication topics, there never was a need for an 8 bit segmentation, so it is less used there.

Yes to all that, but here and now, TODAY, does anyone use "byte" to mean anything other than an 8-bit word?  That's what counts.

And I've done plenty of telecom work (mostly telecom in fact), so I am quite familiar with octets and bit ordering and prime-number frame sizes and robbed-bit signaling (using octets) and all sorts of telecom weirdness.  I've haven't seen any confusion in the telecom field when we talk about bytes, and we talk about bytes a lot.

I guess I'm saying that the kibibyte "solution" hasn't caught on, isn't being used, and is unlikely to ever be used outside of perhaps some obscure fields where for some silly reason it's a requirement.  This is because there is no problem.  I will be surprised if this changes, but if it does and I'm still around I will drink the koolade.

[Kjelt]

This is because there is no problem. 

Good then the 7+ million hits on google, the 200000+ discussions on the internet and some manufacturers using it differently is not a problem, but what is it then ?

[Mr. Scram]

It was a valid point, so it didn't need comment.

And as others observed herein, if and when these other prefixes become the norm, I and they will adopt them. But in the meantime, they're nothing more than a needless distraction from more important things. Demanding their use actually INCREASES confusion and wastes time, as in "WTF did you say?", when "kilobyte" would have been understood by everyone in the conversation. Even you, if you'll be honest enough to admit it.

Can you cite any examples of where kilo has truly been misunderstood? No one in six pages of this thread has shared such an incident. Why create delay and obfuscation when it's entirely unnecessary?

Edit: The fact that kilo continues to be used, without incident, provides the answer to the question of why kibi et. al haven't "caught on yet". If there was an actual problem, everyone would have adopted them by now. But there is no problem, so folks focus on getting their jobs done. There's a lesson in that.

These prefixes already are the norm as that's what standards mean. The fact that there's a secret club in which well defined terms mean something else and which is somehow obvious to anyone initiated in that club is obviously an undesirable situation. That kind of ambiguity is what causes Mars landers to smash into the side of Mars and is exactly the needless distraction you speak of. There was ambiguity and more complete standards have fixed that issue. Now it's just a matter of getting with the program. The lesson is that some people can't let go of the past and that this causes standard to be slowly adopted as these people die out.

[magic]

These prefixes already are the norm as that's what standards mean. The fact that there's a secret club in which well defined terms mean something else and which is somehow obvious to anyone initiated in that club is obviously an undesirable situation.

Just look at the results of the poll, it clearly is deemed desirable to those already in the secret club

That kind of ambiguity is what causes Mars landers to smash into the side of Mars and is exactly the needless distraction you speak of.

If you mean the "Mars Climate Orbiter", it didn't crash because of people using established words to refer to something else, but because of transition from established standards to some utopian globalist mumbo jumbo of one units to rule them all without confusion ever again.

You lose again.

[Mr. Scram]

Just look at the results of the poll, it clearly is deemed desirable to those already in the secret club

If you mean the "Mars Climate Orbiter", it didn't crash because of people using established words to refer to something else, but because of transition from established standards to some utopian globalist mumbo jumbo of one units to rule them all without confusion ever again.

You lose again.

I can't see the poll results as I didn't vote because our opinions are irrelevant. Only the standard is relevant. I didn't mean the Mars Climate Orbiter as I very explicitly said "that kind of ambiguity" and not that specific ambiguity. That kind of sloppiness and inaccuracy is why we need standards. The fact that you see it as some kind of contest with winning and losing at stake would probably be another reason.

[madires]

You can view the poll results without voting. At the moment nearly 81% voted for 1024 bytes. Luckily we can agree on Volts, Amperes, Farads and so on. Or do we have to discuss EU-Volts vs. US-Volts? Chinese Watts?

[Mr. Scram]

You can view the poll results without voting. At the moment nearly 81% voted for 1024 bytes. Luckily we can agree on Volts, Amperes, Farads and so on. Or do we have to discuss EU-Volts vs. US-Volts? Chinese Watts?

The poll is wholly irrelevant.

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/majority

[Jan Audio]

Nice link mr scram.

There was no minority or majority at all until they spread the chaos.
Poll shows : Chaos level is almost 20%

[Nusa]

One of the things you learn with age is that the world is how to deal with the real world, where there is no ONE answer to most things. Language is one of those things that evolves organically from real life events, not from some agency telling you how to speak. Once a word is established, its very hard to change without an in-your-face reason to do so. Example: "aids" once referred to assisting, helping. Now when someone hears that word, they think of the disease with those initials.

There has been no in-your-face reason for people to use the new terminology established by an organization that the average Joe pays no attention to. And in this case, the bulk of the technically educated people as well.

How did other countries get people to adopt the metric system quickly? They passed legislation with the goal of making it mandatory to conduct business as usual. That hasn't happened in the US, so resistance to change is in full force.

[free_electron]

I grew up with Commodore VIC20 , Apple II and TRS80 computers.
Every kid understood that for computers 'KILO', 'MEGA' and 'GIGA' and others are powers of two.
1 Kilo computer memory is 1024 bytes.
1 Kilo of whole wheat flower is 1000 grams.

Why do we need all those kibi Gibi and other nonsense now. Are we becoming so pedantic that we need these definitions ?
I refuse to use this new terminology. It was good back in the 70's, it is good now. If the new generation doesn't understand it anymore : tough shit. grow up. Pull up your pants, comb your hair , and go do something useful instead of sitting on facebook all day long

[Mr. Scram]

I grew up with Commodore VIC20 , Apple II and TRS80 computers.
Every kid understood that for computers 'KILO', 'MEGA' and 'GIGA' and others are powers of two.
1 Kilo computer memory is 1024 bytes.
1 Kilo of whole wheat flower is 1000 grams.

Why do we need all those kibi Gibi and other nonsense now. Are we becoming so pedantic that we need these definitions ?
I refuse to use this new terminology. It was good back in the 70's, it is good now. If the new generation doesn't understand it anymore : tough shit. grow up. Pull up your pants, comb your hair , and go do something useful instead of sitting on facebook all day long

If the old generation doesn't understand it anymore : tough shit. Get with the times. What you learnt has changed so go do something useful instead of whining about it on message boards all day. 

[IDEngineer]

In the printing industry, "M" has meant "thousand" for decades, perhaps longer. Still does. Funny thing... I've also never confused M (mill, as in thousands) with M (meg) even though I move around in both industries. So that's at least three different definitions of the prefix "M".

Folks obsessed with kibi, etc. are like religious fanatics. They insist theirs is the "one true way" and those who do not drink their kool-aid and "see the light" are damned to purgatory. Such people often end up standing at airports and street corners, handing out leaflets and preaching their gospel to the annoyance of the majority who just want to keep living our lives. Religion has its "Moonies"... maybe we should come up with a convenient name for the Disciples of Kibi. "Kibbles"? "Kibbies"? Might be time for a new poll.

[Mr. Scram]

In the printing industry, "M" has meant "thousand" for decades, perhaps longer. Still does. Funny thing... I've also never confused M (mill, as in thousands) with M (meg) even though I move around in both industries. So that's at least three different definitions of the prefix "M".

Folks obsessed with kibi, etc. are like religious fanatics. They insist theirs is the "one true way" and those who do not drink their kool-aid and "see the light" are damned to purgatory. Such people often end up standing at airports and street corners, handing out leaflets and preaching their gospel to the annoyance of the majority who just want to keep living our lives. Religion has its "Moonies"... maybe we should come up with a convenient name for the Disciples of Kibi. "Kibbles"? "Kibbies"? Might be time for a new poll.

You know people are running out of sound arguments when they resort to vilifying "the other camp". Note that your example isn't equivalent as the issue is that the very same term and not just abbreviation can mean two distinctly different things.

[Monkeh]

I guess I'm saying that the kibibyte "solution" hasn't caught on, isn't being used, and is unlikely to ever be used outside of perhaps some obscure fields where for some silly reason it's a requirement.  This is because there is no problem.  I will be surprised if this changes, but if it does and I'm still around I will drink the koolade.

Obscure fields like, say, the IT industry?

[IDEngineer]

You know people are running out of sound arguments when they resort to vilifying "the other camp".

The burden for a "sound argument" is on those who insist to "solve" a non-problem.

This thread started with a reasonable question, but it has devolved to a minority (~20% based on the poll) pounding the table, throwing tantrums, and demanding that everyone else Do As They Say. That sounds exactly like street-corner religion, whose only value is in laughable entertainment for everyone else.

Once again: Show us the evidence. Where are the examples of the confusion that would be solved by "kibi"? We've asked and asked, and the only response is "Our Way Is Better". That's no way to gain converts to your religion. Reply with some links to actual, real-world problems where "kibi" would have saved lives, money, time, or other resources.

[rsjsouza]

My two nibbles. I suspect that you guys are wasting spit trying to convince the other side.

I grew up at more or less the same time as others here and always lived with kB = 1024 Bytes. However, I have absolutely no quarrel with the newer terminology - especially because it is intended to reduce/remove duplicity, which could have unexpected consequences across languages (I lost count of how many times I got confused with duplicity when learning English).

The number of hits around the internet and the amount of OSes that are using more and more these multipliers indicate to me this will prevail in the long run. We will be replaced by the newer folks due to death, insanity, etc. and the newer folks will be much more accustomed to the differentiation between the two.

My biggest beef (and IMO one of the reasons it didn't pick up yet) is that the name is terribly ugly - it sounds puerile and it evokes a cutesy Hello-kitty image in my mind. If it were something like Kobebyte or Kilotonbyte, I suspect it would be replaced quicker. Completely my opinion.