Old SBCs on Ebay: What Gives?

[Alaezae]

I was looking for alternatives for a Pi 5 for a test bench application (realized a Pi 5 would be adequate in the end) and I came across something interesting. I started to look up used industrial SBCs--preferably, something with a PC104 interface--only to find a bunch of ancient boards for what seemed like very high prices!

The first one has a processor from 1995! 4MB of RAM! Not meaning to speak ill of old Intel processors (a 486DX4), but come on... It's running at 100 MHz! What was even crazier to me was that you can still get this board from the manufacturer for a measly $1000.  Who would buy this when you can get a Pi 4 for like $40?

Another that I found is selling for $550 with a VortexX86 (released 2008). This is at least a little more usable at a higher clock speed and much more memory. But for that much money, you'd think there are better options somewhere.

I guess my first thought was that companies have some computer in their manufacturing process that was build 30 years ago and they need to replace the system. They want the exact computer they had in it originally as to not add cost for development on a new system (which will surely be obsolete in another 20 years). How are these people that make these boards staying in business? How do they even source these processors? Does anyone have any experience doing development on these things? Are the tool chains even available anymore?

Maybe it's a dumb question.... Why are people using Arduinos when there are many better, more professional options? This does not seem like the same thing though: these boards cost a heck of a lot more than a lot of commercially viable options today.

I hate it when people put ebay links on these posts, so I included pictures on the post. Just look up "PC104 SBC" on ebay and you'll find a million examples.

[tunk]

Most likely these boards are tailored and built into (high cost)
equipment, and it's cheaper and simpler to replace a dead board.

[coromonadalix]

sometimes you can grab some of them very powerful    if a seller doesn't want to suck up you dry with ridiculous price(s)

pc104  pc0104 plus, nano itx   ...

[NiHaoMike]

It's going to be expensive if it's an exact replacement for some old, really expensive machine that's still in "common" use. A few hundred dollars for a part to get a machine running again is pocket change compared to a substantial fraction of a million dollars to replace the machine with a new one.

Maybe it's a dumb question.... Why are people using Arduinos when there are many better, more professional options?

Same reason why Windows is still in very common use even with many technically superior alternatives - it's a common standard that works. (It's starting to fall apart as Windows seemingly gets worse with every new version...) I have used many Arduinos professionally in automated test setups. For the small number of setups made, it's not worth spending the extra time building from scratch just to be able to use a cheaper chip. Nor is shaving off a few microseconds in the code going to make any noticeable difference in the end.

[ejeffrey]

Probably mostly replacement parts although it's possible there are old designs using these that are still being manufactured   These systems were normally used with ISA bus data acquisition or equipment control modules. A raspberry pi would be mostly useless in such a system.

[squadchannel]

Haha , it's the same in Japan.

There used to be a domestic (near domestic) PC called NEC PC-98. in the early 90's, PC-98 was also used to run industrial equipment.
After 30 years, when the PC-98 became extinct, it was time to replace the one used in industrial equipment.
But the trouble was, they could not be easily replaced with PC/AT PCs: NEC had its own expansion bus, the C-bus, which of course was dedicated to PC-98.
for this reason, PC-98s are still sold at high prices on Yahoo auction...

Not only the bus, but also the OS is slightly different, and PC/ATs Windows will not run. at that time, there was a custom Windows for PC-98.
today, NEC itself offers a service to replace troubled PC-98s.


The same is true for those industrial boards on ebay. Those motherboards have a PC/104 or ISA bus. Unfortunately, modern buses, PCI and PCIe, cannot use the DRQ signals required for the ISA or PC/104 bus.
The "ISA" alone is a valuable motherboard.
It should be normal to use them while repairing them, especially since industrial equipment has a long operating life and they are all expensive items that cannot be easily replaced.
even if try to do something about it, the original manufacturer may be bankrupt or try to replace it with a new one.
So these old motherboards are valuable.

Also, the 486 should have been manufactured until 2007. I believe that NOS is still plentiful in China.
There are even brand new newly designed 386 laptops for sale on aliexpress.

[Shock]

Engineer costs $100k his tools $20k and the product $250k noone cares anymore that the new old stock mobo costs $1k. The products these industrial boards control have service contracts which also make some parts seem insignificant compared to the cost in bringing the machine offline and having a specialist repair it.

The specs of these boards are only relevant to it's intended purpose. Some of these will just sit there operating mundane but expensive tasks like weight scales, turning a motors on and off or monitoring sensors. You're not necessarily crunching data and sometimes they are just terminals that do next to nothing.

The ebay price is a mix of demand, knowledge/speculation, storage space and cashflow.

[TomKatt]

We have many cnc machines in our shop - it never ceases to amaze me how much replacement controller parts cost by the time you need them.  I've got quotes to replace controllers that approach the cost of replacing the entire machine - which is amazing when you consider the drive system and mechanical components that are in them.  So if I need to replace some motherboard for $1K, that's an absolute bargain !!!

It's crazy how quickly automated machinery becomes technically outdated...  I've got a few still running Windows NT lol.  And just 20 years ago we had equipment that had paper tape reader capabilities lol.

[BradC]

Back when I was an apprentice I spent the best part of 3 days repairing a custom motherboard that had suffered from the capacitor plague. The resulting lack of ESR had destroyed a couple of regulators, burned a few inductors and charred the 6 layer board. Even though it taught me a lot, I'd have happily paid a grand back then to replace the board with a NOS replacement.

[elektryk]

Maybe it's a dumb question.... Why are people using Arduinos when there are many better, more professional options? This does not seem like the same thing though: these boards cost a heck of a lot more than a lot of commercially viable options today.

For me, it doesn't make sense to start a project with obsolete parts.
To run such boards, you also need obsolete software which may not be easily available.

[SiliconWizard]

SBCs were very expensive at the time and mostly for industrial applications. Now what they currently offer on eBay is not necessarily and indication of what actually sells. They probably target replacements in old and expensive gear (so people willing to pay big bucks for that instead of having to retire the equipement).

Nobody is going to buy these for "new projects", apart maybe for an extremely few people into vintage stuff and having enough money to do this. An ultra niche.

So it's more for maintaining old equipment, as I mentioned.

[langwadt]

Keeping the price high also means it goes to those who actually need them and someone who could just as well use somethong else

[TomKatt]

Keeping the price high also means it goes to those who actually need them and someone who could just as well use somethong else

I'd like to believe that people are that mindful of others needs, but I suspect it comes down to simple greed - if you really need it, you will pay the price...  Sellers know this and price accordingly.

[westfw]

I started to look up used industrial SBCs--preferably, something with a PC104 interface--only to find a bunch of ancient boards for what seemed like very high prices!

"Ancient" boards may be needed for compatibilities sake (as everyone has pointed out.)
"Very high" is relative. The photos show boards that seem to me to be in the "typical" prices range for industrial quality SBCs.  Lots of "current" PC104 boards are in the $500 range.
Don't be fooled by the much lower prices of evaluation, educational, and hobbyist boards.

when you can get a Pi 4 for like $40

And for about $130 you can get a PC104 "carrier board for RPi Compute Module" (not including the compute module itself, which will run you another $30-90)  Except that crowd funding seems to have failed.  ( https://www.cnx-software.com/2017/11/21/pi104-carrier-board-for-raspberry-pi-compute-modules-partially-complies-with-pc104-onebank-specs-crowdfunding/ )

[Bud]

$500 is peanuts to companies whose livelihood depends on it.