Author Topic: PIC32MM, a Cortex-M0/M0+ contender?  (Read 17166 times)

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Offline Howardlong

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Re: Why PIC guys like DIP ?
« Reply #51 on: June 29, 2016, 12:05:20 pm »
They have no other option than cry for a DIP version since they are lazy enought and don't want to use 2 minutes to solder a LQFP DIP adapter

You're making quite an assumption there. I, and I am sure many others do exactly that _very_ frequently, in fact it's pretty much an everyday occurrence for me. I have a drawer full of assorted breakout boards for exactly that reason.

I absolutely guarantee you that it is impossible to hand solder an LQFP to a DIP adapter in 2 minutes from start to finish, and I have a section in my lab already set up ready to do exactly that. All I have to do is turn on the irons, find the right breakout board from the stash, and take the dust cover off the microscope and I can get started. But with LQFP, after soldering the chip and the header pins, and cleaning the flux off, not only do you need to do a visual inspection, you also need to do an adjacent pin continuity test too. I'm sure with your experience you've had two adjacent pins shorted on an LQFP that didn't show up on your visual inspection. Miss that step at your peril! Realistically I'd have a finished LQFP in ten minutes start to finish from scratch.

With a DIP package, in the same time, I'd already be well on the way to having the answer before you'd even put your breakout board on the breadboard. If you want to do things your way, sure, go right ahead, I'm not stopping you, but I'd rather take the path of least resistance (see what I did there?)

 

Offline ebclr

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Re: PIC32MM, a Cortex-M0/M0+ contender?
« Reply #52 on: June 29, 2016, 12:10:52 pm »
If fact I do this in less than a minute on a daily basys. If you have the right tools everything is very easy

Simple 2 lines on solder paste pasted with a descent dispensere and a hot air station and everything is ready in less than a minute
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: PIC32MM, a Cortex-M0/M0+ contender?
« Reply #53 on: June 29, 2016, 12:25:05 pm »
If fact I do this in less than a minute on a daily basys. If you have the right tools everything is very easy

Simple 2 lines on solder paste pasted with a descent dispensere and a hot air station and everything is ready in less than a minute

Video or it didn't happen, end to end, from deciding you need to do it, to having a finished and tested board. ;-)
 

Offline Rerouter

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Re: PIC32MM, a Cortex-M0/M0+ contender?
« Reply #54 on: June 29, 2016, 12:37:03 pm »


If he used a bit less solder paste or used longer pads on his design, he would have been done in under 35 seconds, with a hand iron, hot air would more or less match this, if you had a small station you would do a lap around the pins, and with a bigger one could do the whole chip at once,

Arguably as someone why regularly hand solders 0201's i may lie outside the norm...
« Last Edit: June 29, 2016, 12:42:03 pm by Rerouter »
 

Offline ebclr

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Re: PIC32MM, a Cortex-M0/M0+ contender?
« Reply #55 on: June 29, 2016, 12:37:22 pm »
 

Offline benSTmax

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Re: Why PIC guys like DIP ?
« Reply #56 on: June 29, 2016, 12:38:22 pm »
They have no other option than cry for a DIP version since they are lazy enought and don't want to use 2 minutes to solder a LQFP DIP adapter
...
Realistically I'd have a finished LQFP in ten minutes start to finish from scratch.

With a DIP package, in the same time, I'd already be well on the way to having the answer before you'd even put your breakout board on the breadboard. If you want to do things your way, sure, go right ahead, I'm not stopping you, but I'd rather take the path of least resistance (see what I did there?)

I think the DIP package is very convenient for people with poor soldering skills. In fact I know a couple of very good firmware guys(with poor soldering skills) and the last time one of them tried to solder a LQFP package on an adapter, he spent a day hunting non-existent bugs because of some bad soldering joints.
On the other hand, Howardlong was spot on when he said the DIP & breadboard approach might save a lot of time and headaches for many folks. I fully agree with him
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: PIC32MM, a Cortex-M0/M0+ contender?
« Reply #57 on: June 29, 2016, 12:56:32 pm »
"I absolutely guarantee you that it is impossible to hand solder an LQFP to a DIP adapter in 2 minutes from start to finish, and I have a section in my lab already set up ready to do exactly that"

Put some of your money behind it and your guarantee may sound more credible.

No, I'm not good at soldering. Yes, I can do it well within 2 minutes.
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Offline bktemp

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Re: PIC32MM, a Cortex-M0/M0+ contender?
« Reply #58 on: June 29, 2016, 01:00:59 pm »
After soldering a SMD package to breakout board you are not done yet:
First you need a breakout board for the particular package. You maybe have a selection of generic ones, otherwsie you need to make and order a pcb or etch one, but this takes hours or days.
If you use a generic breakout board, you still need to plug it into a breadboard or solder it to some other board, because you need to add some capacitors to all the Vcc/Vss pins.

Regardless how fast you solder, using DIP will always be faster.
If you use a generic breadboard, the traces from the package to the capacitors will be much longer than when using the DIP variant.
So for a first prototype, DIP has some advantages compared to SMD package unless you buy a ready made evaluation board.

Soldering a QFP IC in 2 minutes is doable, but if you include all the time needed to set up the work bench for soldering and clean up afterwards and inspect the PCB, I doubt it is possible for a single IC (maybe if you have a dedicated work bench for soldering SMD stuff and do not need to clean up your tools afterwards).
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: PIC32MM, a Cortex-M0/M0+ contender?
« Reply #59 on: June 29, 2016, 01:06:01 pm »
"After soldering a SMD package to breakout board you are not done yet:"

Don't you think you could do the soldering before hand?

Sounds like you are more interested in making an argument rather than making a fair comparison.

If we want to go down that path, how long does it take you to write firmware on a pdip snapdragon 820? Or Xeon e3-1230? ...
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Offline bktemp

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Re: PIC32MM, a Cortex-M0/M0+ contender?
« Reply #60 on: June 29, 2016, 01:21:09 pm »
"After soldering a SMD package to breakout board you are not done yet:"

Don't you think you could do the soldering before hand?
I only compare the time from getting the chip until I can load software into the microcontroller.
If I do the soldering beforehand, I only need to plug the DIP ic into the socket because everything else is done, while I still have to solder the SMD ic onto the breakout board (it is unlikely to have a SMD socket, because they are expensive).
DIP will always be faster unless you have a ready made board where you can reflow solder the SMD part.
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: PIC32MM, a Cortex-M0/M0+ contender?
« Reply #61 on: June 29, 2016, 01:26:17 pm »
"DIP will always be faster unless you have a ready made board where you can reflow solder the SMD part."

In the same spirit, i woukd say that dip will always be slower unless you have a ready made dip part.
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Offline dannyf

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Re: PIC32MM, a Cortex-M0/M0+ contender?
« Reply #62 on: June 29, 2016, 01:29:51 pm »
I think the point is that there are advantages and disadvantages to any packaging. The fact that dip doesn't work for you doesn't it it will not work for others, and vice versa.

To me, the pains and sufferings assodiciated with prototyping a smt part are dwarfed by the production convenience as well as wide selection of smt parts.

Obviously, that equation will change if you don't go production or you do extensive prototyping on breadboards, etc.
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Offline Howardlong

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Re: PIC32MM, a Cortex-M0/M0+ contender?
« Reply #63 on: June 29, 2016, 02:20:13 pm »
"I absolutely guarantee you that it is impossible to hand solder an LQFP to a DIP adapter in 2 minutes from start to finish, and I have a section in my lab already set up ready to do exactly that"

Put some of your money behind it and your guarantee may sound more credible.

No, I'm not good at soldering. Yes, I can do it well within 2 minutes.

Go on then, video or it didn't happen, start to finish.
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: PIC32MM, a Cortex-M0/M0+ contender?
« Reply #64 on: June 29, 2016, 02:27:48 pm »


If he used a bit less solder paste or used longer pads on his design, he would have been done in under 35 seconds, with a hand iron, hot air would more or less match this, if you had a small station you would do a lap around the pins, and with a bigger one could do the whole chip at once,

Arguably as someone why regularly hand solders 0201's i may lie outside the norm...

1) How long to find the breakout board?
2) Clean the board?
3) Visual inspection, hardly good enough.
4) Adjacent pin continuity test?
5) Header pins?
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: PIC32MM, a Cortex-M0/M0+ contender?
« Reply #65 on: June 29, 2016, 02:32:10 pm »


1) That's not an LQFP.
2) How long to get the breakout board?
3) Where are the header pins?
4) Where is the visual inspection and adjacent pin continuity test (not really needed for the SOIC demonstrated, but would be needed for LGFP).
5) At least the board was cleaned!

That's demonstrating just one part of the whole end to end job.
 

Offline ebclr

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Re: PIC32MM, a Cortex-M0/M0+ contender?
« Reply #66 on: June 29, 2016, 03:02:19 pm »
OK, Let's use DIP if you like to be outdated is up to you, SMD is a reality not an option
 

Offline JPortici

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Re: PIC32MM, a Cortex-M0/M0+ contender?
« Reply #67 on: June 29, 2016, 03:50:28 pm »
it might be me but i keep finding that tqfp adapter are a mix of
-cheap ass shit (pads that comes away with drag soldering in some cases. in other cases the "universal adapters" have traces going up to the middle of the board and they are useless as there are ALWAYS solder shorts between traces)
-very expensive but good quality pads
-useless shit anyway, like having the pins spaced 1.27 mm (WHY? just... WHY?)

and i have to use protoboards anyway so i end up with a LOT of wasted space, so one of three things happen:
- i have to use a pic16/18 for cost/legacy/whatever purpose -> literally no point in using a smd part
- i get a demo board/starter kit and build an expander board around it (but only when absolutely necessary as i want to have freedom in deciding what pins do what, but for first prototypes is okay i guess)
- i have to use a dspic that has a DIP variant. i may be able to use the same pic16/18 board from another job as the dspic is probably pin-to-pin compatible. how cool is that?

so, for what i have to do DIP is far from dead or outdated
« Last Edit: June 29, 2016, 03:56:47 pm by JPortici »
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: PIC32MM, a Cortex-M0/M0+ contender?
« Reply #68 on: June 29, 2016, 04:41:51 pm »
OK, Let's use DIP if you like to be outdated is up to you, SMD is a reality not an option

Er, that is not what I said, now was it?  |O

 

Offline ebclr

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Re: PIC32MM, a Cortex-M0/M0+ contender?
« Reply #69 on: June 29, 2016, 06:04:22 pm »
Believe or not I Like PIC, i simple no more use that, I used a lot 10 years ago
 

Offline ebclr

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Mamy I drink to much and I can't solder a lqfp without destroying everything


Here a solution


https://world.taobao.com/item/524702904631.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a312a.7700824.w4002-9391622304.92.sqvXrw
 

Offline andersm

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Re: PIC32MM, a Cortex-M0/M0+ contender?
« Reply #71 on: June 29, 2016, 08:16:11 pm »
1) That's not an LQFP.
If you're OK with low pin count versions anyway, prototyping with SOIC or TSSOP versions shouldn't be an issue. Adapter boards cost pennies, and I just consider them an essential part of the toolbox.

Offline Howardlong

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Re: PIC32MM, a Cortex-M0/M0+ contender?
« Reply #72 on: June 29, 2016, 10:41:03 pm »
For the avoidance of doubt, here are few from the prototyping pile I prepared earlier, so as you can see I'm hardly averse to making up boards like these, including SOIC, SSOP, QFP, QFN, BGA etc etc, it's just that if I don't need to, I don't.

 

Offline nctnico

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Re: PIC32MM, a Cortex-M0/M0+ contender?
« Reply #73 on: June 29, 2016, 10:47:08 pm »
"DIP will always be faster unless you have a ready made board where you can reflow solder the SMD part."

In the same spirit, i woukd say that dip will always be slower unless you have a ready made dip part.
I think I have not used my breadboards in over 2 decades. I got fed up rather quickly with wires going out or making poor contact. I rather just make a PCB (cheap nowadays) and have a good base to start from.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: PIC32MM, a Cortex-M0/M0+ contender?
« Reply #74 on: June 29, 2016, 10:55:25 pm »
1) That's not an LQFP.
If you're OK with low pin count versions anyway, prototyping with SOIC or TSSOP versions shouldn't be an issue. Adapter boards cost pennies, and I just consider them an essential part of the toolbox.

Indeed, I have a drawer full of them, from SC70 to 256 ball BGA, but while SOIC, SSOP, QFP and QFN etc are reasonable enough, even down to 0.4mm QFP, BGA is an exception. I certainly don't mount BGAs on breakouts every day, so I only buy in boards as needed with a small buffer. Unlike other technologies, fabbing your own boards for BGA is nigh on impossible not least because you really do need solder mask: without solder mask it's not pretty!
 


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