Author Topic: Raspberry Pi Pico  (Read 36467 times)

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Online lucazader

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Re: Raspberry Pi Pico
« Reply #75 on: January 24, 2021, 01:54:54 am »
I am not going to stop using the NXP Kinetis, i.MX or the STM32 from ST, to replace it with an unknown product, Cortex M0 (I use a minimum of Cortex M4). And worst of all, without a serious IDE like the ones based on Eclipse (MCUxpresso, STM32CubeIde).

What IDE does Raspberry offer for their microcontroller? They talk about Arduino, which seems like a terrible option.

They are offering VScode with a c/c++ sdk. seems fine to me.
 
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Offline luiHS

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Re: Raspberry Pi Pico
« Reply #76 on: January 24, 2021, 02:49:22 am »
I am not going to stop using the NXP Kinetis, i.MX or the STM32 from ST, to replace it with an unknown product, Cortex M0 (I use a minimum of Cortex M4). And worst of all, without a serious IDE like the ones based on Eclipse (MCUxpresso, STM32CubeIde).

What IDE does Raspberry offer for their microcontroller? They talk about Arduino, which seems like a terrible option.

They are offering VScode with a c/c++ sdk. seems fine to me.


Yes, I already saw it. What is annoying is that all the installation instructions are for Linux, nothing for Windows.

Just because Raspberry Pi works with Linux doesn't mean that you have to program a microcontroller from Linux or using a Raspberry Pi. I installed VSCode and there I stopped, I wanted to try it but from my main computer in Windows.

 

Offline Rasz

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Re: Raspberry Pi Pico
« Reply #77 on: January 24, 2021, 02:55:15 am »
I did, in fact, own a Zune

What else, Betamax? xD card digital camera? anything using Sony memory sticks? HDDVD? Segway? Nook? Google+? ;-) seriously read the links on "harbingers of failure"

I did not know what to expect from the Galileo. Since you obviously did

anyone who looked at their non documentation did, why double down with follow up product?

But similar to how you can bitbang VGA from a STM32F4, you probably can make something to work and create a cool demo for the aforementioned peripherals. But to then actually have the CPU and memory subsystem remain useful enough to do something else..

bitbanging fullhd 60Hz VGA with enough spare cpu to play animation

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Offline John_L

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Re: Raspberry Pi Pico
« Reply #78 on: January 24, 2021, 03:43:31 am »
Quote
Just because Raspberry Pi works with Linux doesn't mean that you have to program a microcontroller from Linux or using a Raspberry Pi

Don't need Pi. No big deal to set up Ubuntu in VM box on Windows machine.
Toolchain install is as per Raspberry Pi instructions, I didn't use their auto-install script.
 

Online lucazader

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Re: Raspberry Pi Pico
« Reply #79 on: January 24, 2021, 04:16:09 am »

Yes, I already saw it. What is annoying is that all the installation instructions are for Linux, nothing for Windows.

https://datasheets.raspberrypi.org/pico/getting_started_with_pico.pdf
Quote
8.2. Building on MS Windows
Pg.34
 
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Offline guenthert

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Re: Raspberry Pi Pico
« Reply #80 on: January 24, 2021, 05:23:28 am »
     A buddy of mine just pointed out that the original ARM (or the first commercial available ARM?) CPU was already used to emulate the BBC micro.  Not meaning to belittle the feat (particularly given the time frame), more a reminder on how much CPU performance has progressed in the past three+ decades.

[..]
bitbanging fullhd 60Hz VGA with enough spare cpu to play animation


     And that's how the RPi Pico demo scene got a jump-start  ;D
« Last Edit: January 24, 2021, 05:38:07 am by guenthert »
 

Offline hamster_nz

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Re: Raspberry Pi Pico
« Reply #81 on: January 24, 2021, 05:44:03 am »
     A buddy of mine just pointed out that the original ARM (or the first commercial available ARM?) CPU was already used to emulate the BBC micro.  Not meaning to belittle the feat (particularly given the time frame), more a reminder on how much CPU performance has progressed in the past three+ decades.

[..]
bitbanging fullhd 60Hz VGA with enough spare cpu to play animation


     And that's how the RPi Pico demo scene got a jump-start  ;D

That video is a nice demo of the PIO, but why not pay the extra US$1.50 for a Pi Zero, and have a real display...  :)
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Offline DrG

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Re: Raspberry Pi Pico
« Reply #82 on: January 24, 2021, 05:56:15 am »

Yes, I already saw it. What is annoying is that all the installation instructions are for Linux, nothing for Windows.

https://datasheets.raspberrypi.org/pico/getting_started_with_pico.pdf
Quote
8.2. Building on MS Windows
Pg.34

Yep. Did that tonight. Took a long time - downloading VS2019 and the rest of the tool chain, but basically no big problems. I had to mess around with cmake... had to edit cmake-tools-kits.json and put the preferredGenerator VS2019 stuff on top and that seemed to do it. Everything in the examples directory built. Only ran blink so far because it is getting late, but so far, so good.
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Offline Rasz

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Re: Raspberry Pi Pico
« Reply #83 on: January 24, 2021, 08:25:03 am »
That video is a nice demo of the PIO, but why not pay the extra US$1.50 for a Pi Zero, and have a real display...  :)

Zero is a virtual product, even ZeroW is limited to 1 per user now

oh man the number of IO sucks on Pico. Just enough to emulate IDE interface (24 pins), but you are left with 2 pins and usb 1.1 for external storage :/ could maybe squeeze SD interface if its possible to reclaim GPIO23/24/25/29 dedicated to power sensing/switching and the led. 8bit scsi on the other hand should be a breeze, say hello to $4 SCSI disk emulators for vintage computers.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2021, 08:27:13 am by Rasz »
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Online ataradov

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Re: Raspberry Pi Pico
« Reply #84 on: January 24, 2021, 08:30:10 am »
I'm waiting for bare chips before I even consider using it in something real. I don't get the idea of using a ready made board like this for a device in an easy to solder package and not requiring a ton of support components.
Alex
 

Offline hamster_nz

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Re: Raspberry Pi Pico
« Reply #85 on: January 24, 2021, 09:11:16 am »
I'm waiting for bare chips before I even consider using it in something real. I don't get the idea of using a ready made board like this for a device in an easy to solder package and not requiring a ton of support components.

My feeling is that it's for hobbyists who can use KiCad/Eagle to lay out boards, get them at JLCPCB for $5, but can't solder high-density packages..

I am waiting for somebody to decap one, to see if there is any hidden RF stuff on there.
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Offline Kangurito

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Re: Raspberry Pi Pico
« Reply #86 on: January 24, 2021, 10:08:58 am »
Not impressed by this product. Nothing new or innovative here. It's 20 year old ARM tech that's commonly available from other vendors.

I'd love to see PI make a low cost 5ghz WiFi enabled ARM device... that would be a step in the right direction.
 

Offline woofy

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Re: Raspberry Pi Pico
« Reply #87 on: January 24, 2021, 12:34:52 pm »
Just about everything I make these days involves connectivity, the pi zero-w and esp32 are regular goto's, so my first reaction to the pico was "no wifi, no ethernet".
Comparing price/performance against the ESP32 disappoints a bit as well.
Price - ESP32 1.98, pico 3.00 - PICO is 50% more.
Performance - ESP32 dual core Xtensa @ 240MHz (600DMIPS), PICO dual core M0+ @ 133MHz (248 DMIPS) - ESP is 240% faster
And the ESP includes wifi.

That said, I think the PICO will be a massive success.
And yes, I've ordered one to play with. (:-)

Offline newbrain

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Re: Raspberry Pi Pico
« Reply #88 on: January 24, 2021, 02:28:40 pm »
Yep. Did that tonight. Took a long time - downloading VS2019 and the rest of the tool chain, but basically no big problems. I had to mess around with cmake... had to edit cmake-tools-kits.json and put the preferredGenerator VS2019 stuff on top and that seemed to do it. Everything in the examples directory built. Only ran blink so far because it is getting late, but so far, so good.
I'm really puzzled by their choice of going the VS 2019 buildtools and NMake way, I don't see any particular benefit and it carries along a shitload of unrelated stuff.
Moreover, if used in a commercial environment, there are a number of quite serious license limitations*, so it's a bit of a dumb decision.

Python, Cmake and regular (gnu) make - and of course VS Code - work perfectly on Windows, I have many projects using the same set of cmakelists and makefiles on Linux and Windows, with just some different build conf in VS Code.

Another available option on Windows is always to use WSL remoting in VS Code, it's easy to set up a build environment where compilation is carried on in WSL, with Windows native debugging.

Maybe they could prepare a prebuilt Windows openocd package, instead of having to go through the pain to also install MSYS and compile it.

BTW, chocolatey will painless install Cmake, make, ninja and the likes.

OT:
And worst of all, without a serious IDE like the ones based on Eclipse (MCUxpresso, STM32CubeIde).
Ugh - probably we live in different universes, I took this as an extremely positive choice.
Rant follows: :blah:
Every time I accost one of those (or anything Eclipse based) I feel like this.
I have an ever-growing list of swearword laced grievances with MCUxpresso, I use it as way to let out some steam almost every time I use it.
Gimme VS Code, emacs or real VS anytime. Even vim in a pinch. cat > main.c. Wax tablets.
I'll put in a good remark on MCUxpresso, though: its projects work perfectly in Linux and Windows and Mac, with no changes at all, allowing to store them in a repo and work from your preferred (or available) environment.  :blah:

*In practice, you need a Visual Studio license, and you are bound by its limits (e.g. simplifying, VS Community in an enterprise = only Open Source projects or education).
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Offline cv007

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Re: Raspberry Pi Pico
« Reply #89 on: January 24, 2021, 03:32:27 pm »
>I'm waiting for bare chips before I even consider using it in something real

I wouldn't know, but it seems to me they are in the 'business' of promoting their brand. That doesn't happen when you sell silicon that hides in a black box, and basically lose control of the whole 'ecosystem' surrounding it. I would settle for being able to buy a pico board at digikey/mouser in singles or any quantity you wish (and it normally being in stock) instead of always hunting around for any of their distributors to have them in stock. I'm guessing they are mostly out of stock already.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Raspberry Pi Pico
« Reply #90 on: January 24, 2021, 03:38:07 pm »
The only interesting feature I have seen is the PIO thing, although some other vendors also have MCUs with something similar (but maybe not quite as generic.)

I'm still thinking this venture looks like a bit of waste of time, whereas many of us are still waiting for a truly "open" RPi. Oh well.

As to purely doing business for the heck of it, that would be fine for any company, but this is not what the RP foundation is meant to be:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi_Foundation
"The Raspberry Pi Foundation is a charity (...)"

Let's keep in mind their main goal is to "promote the study of basic computer science in schools", and not to provide seasoned engineers and industrial companies with parts.
In that regard, the Pico seems to fit the bill (even though that was already largely fulfilled with Arduino), so that's fine.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2021, 03:45:40 pm by SiliconWizard »
 

Offline andersm

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Re: Raspberry Pi Pico
« Reply #91 on: January 24, 2021, 04:10:40 pm »
I wouldn't know, but it seems to me they are in the 'business' of promoting their brand. That doesn't happen when you sell silicon that hides in a black box, and basically lose control of the whole 'ecosystem' surrounding it.
Adafruit have launched two boards based on the RP2040 (ItsyBitsy RP2040, Feather 2040), and Arduino announced they're making one, so they're not that precious about their chip. It remains to be seen if they'll sell the bare chips, but right now they're completely supply-constrained.

Edit: The fact that they've published a Hardware design with RP2040 manual rather strongly suggests that the bare chips will be available for sale.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2021, 11:02:13 pm by andersm »
 

Offline Cliff Matthews

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Re: Raspberry Pi Pico
« Reply #92 on: January 24, 2021, 04:23:49 pm »
I suppose arduino cc took a look at it and started quaking in their boots (we have to get in on that!!  :scared: )
 

Offline DrG

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Re: Raspberry Pi Pico
« Reply #93 on: January 24, 2021, 04:38:11 pm »
I did, in fact, own a Zune

What else, Betamax? xD card digital camera? anything using Sony memory sticks? HDDVD? Segway? Nook? Google+? ;-) seriously read the links on "harbingers of failure"

I did not know what to expect from the Galileo. Since you obviously did

anyone who looked at their non documentation did, why double down with follow up product?

Really? You really want to fight over this? Well I don't. Your arrogance is noted, your expertise without commensurate accomplishments is also noted...plus, in my country, your name means "pleaser of many goats".  :-DD
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Offline DrG

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Re: Raspberry Pi Pico
« Reply #94 on: January 24, 2021, 04:42:13 pm »
Yep. Did that tonight. Took a long time - downloading VS2019 and the rest of the tool chain, but basically no big problems. I had to mess around with cmake... had to edit cmake-tools-kits.json and put the preferredGenerator VS2019 stuff on top and that seemed to do it. Everything in the examples directory built. Only ran blink so far because it is getting late, but so far, so good.
I'm really puzzled by their choice of going the VS 2019 buildtools and NMake way, I don't see any particular benefit and it carries along a shitload of unrelated stuff.
Moreover, if used in a commercial environment, there are a number of quite serious license limitations*, so it's a bit of a dumb decision.
/---/

I agree (especially about the unrelated stuff). I don't know why, I suppose to address the non-Linux Windowites. I suppose one test of popularity could be whether we see a streamlined Windows IDE that gets traction.

Edit: Also, you reminded me that I had to put "NMake Makefiles" as the default build generator in the CMake plugin settings, although I had some PATH issues that might have been the problem as well.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2021, 04:47:57 pm by DrG »
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Offline JOEBOBSICLE

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Re: Raspberry Pi Pico
« Reply #95 on: January 25, 2021, 08:24:43 am »
Vscode plus the cortex debug extension is perfectly good enough even for most professionals.

There's enough very good ide's out there for ARM. We don't need another one.
 

Offline mikerj

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Re: Raspberry Pi Pico
« Reply #96 on: January 25, 2021, 04:27:56 pm »
The lack of semi-decent analog peripherals is a major omission if they are targeting this to an educational or hobby market.
    Is it?  The Parallax P8X32A has, other then built-in RAM, counters and a boot ROM, no peripherals at all (not even built-in E(E)PROM or UART) and Parallax expressively caters to the educational and hobby market.  Sure, they are a small player, but are around for more than 30 years now.  Guess, it depends on whether you want to teach how to fade a LED or how PWM works.

     The new (still fairly expensive) P2X8C4M64 has a number built-in 'peripherials', ADCs, DACs, UARTs and filters.  So maybe they did see a need.

And Parallax are also quite a small player in a fairly niche market, just look how rarely they get mentioned on here for example compared to the manufacturers making more conventional micros.
 

Offline tszaboo

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Re: Raspberry Pi Pico
« Reply #97 on: January 25, 2021, 04:48:51 pm »
I wouldn't know, but it seems to me they are in the 'business' of promoting their brand. That doesn't happen when you sell silicon that hides in a black box, and basically lose control of the whole 'ecosystem' surrounding it.
Adafruit have launched two boards based on the RP2040 (ItsyBitsy RP2040, Feather 2040), and Arduino announced they're making one, so they're not that precious about their chip. It remains to be seen if they'll sell the bare chips, but right now they're completely supply-constrained.

Edit: The fact that they've published a Hardware design with RP2040 manual rather strongly suggests that the bare chips will be available for sale.
I'm curious to see what these companies are actually thinking about this.
I mean the Arduino.cc nano costs 20EUR excluding tax. They absolutely undercut them with price, and the M0+ (while not a very fast core) has absolutely higher performance. 
So what are they going to to? Sell their boards for inflated price, and hope that extra features will attract people? I doubt someone wants to pay extra 16 EUR for charger+battery connector.
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Offline Jan Audio

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Re: Raspberry Pi Pico
« Reply #98 on: January 25, 2021, 05:00:08 pm »
Can you use this in your products ?, or is it just for fun ?
 

Offline DrG

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Re: Raspberry Pi Pico
« Reply #99 on: January 25, 2021, 05:03:47 pm »
/--/I'm curious to see what these companies are actually thinking about this.
I mean the Arduino.cc nano costs 20EUR excluding tax. They absolutely undercut them with price, and the M0+ (while not a very fast core) has absolutely higher performance.
So what are they going to to? Sell their boards for inflated price, and hope that extra features will attract people? I doubt someone wants to pay extra 16 EUR for charger+battery connector.

The "classic" nano is probably not the right comparison. The Nano 33 IoT, US$18.40, also an M0+ (48 MHz) but with BLE/WiFi - been around for a while now. Granted, still a huge price difference, but maybe a better comparison.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2021, 05:05:43 pm by DrG »
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