Author Topic: The best microcontroller development environement  (Read 30438 times)

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Offline michaelymTopic starter

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The best microcontroller development environement
« on: November 06, 2013, 06:49:37 am »
Aaaagh, its so hard to choose. ARM/PIC/AVR/8051. I thought maybe I should approach it from the direction of the development environment.

What is the most feature rich development environment for microcontrollers on the market.
I'm looking for things such as debug features, auto code generation, 21st century code editor,simulations, etc.

 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: The best microcontroller development environement
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2013, 08:39:32 am »
Also include the price or budget for it since that is usually one of the major decision makers.
 

Offline michaelymTopic starter

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Re: The best microcontroller development environement
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2013, 09:03:44 am »
I'm assuming no budget constraints.
 

Offline bench_knob

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Re: The best microcontroller development environement
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2013, 09:16:26 am »
Aaaagh, its so hard to choose. ARM/PIC/AVR/8051. I thought maybe I should approach it from the direction of the development environment.

What is the most feature rich development environment for microcontrollers on the market.
I'm looking for things such as debug features, auto code generation, 21st century code editor,simulations, etc.

Hi there!

Throw my two burritos into the pot..

I'm an open-source advocate, and for me that filters out MicroChip/PIC and Texas Instruments MSP430 series, but it leaves wide open, at least in my humble opinion, both the ARM and the Atmel (Norwegian company) chip makers. Various ARM chips are supported by open-source tools, while Atmel also produces an ARM chip, virtually all (if not all) of the Atmel microcontrollers are supported by free open-source tools. So for my perspective, I suggest Atmel/AVR of which incidentally, the very popular Italian open-source Arduino is a member.  There inexpensive debuggers (JTAG Mark II ICE) and various development boards, guys such as Olimex and AdaFruit, and my friends over at SparkFun (they've been getting expensive lately, but they have lots of kewl stuff), and of course there are the 'restricted memory' tools offered by Atmel, and FREE C & C++ (junk) compilers too.  So I feel confident that you can't really go too far wrong with Atmel. And no ITAR restrictions either if you are US based.

:->

Cheers

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Offline Stonent

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Re: The best microcontroller development environement
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2013, 10:02:40 am »
Why change environments?

Arduino/Energia/MPIDE !
Atmel/MSP40/PIC !
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Online nctnico

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Re: The best microcontroller development environement
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2013, 11:02:47 am »
Definitely Eclipse. Its designed to be the best code development environment. Companies involved are IBM, Google, Oracle, SAP, etc. For most compiler vendors the IDE is just costing them money so they only provide the bare minimum to get newbies started quickly.
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Offline dannyf

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Re: The best microcontroller development environement
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2013, 11:23:23 am »
The phrase "development environment" can be a bunch of things, like compiler, IDE, debugger / programmer, or anything one uses in developing a code.

In the latter, I think the ARM chips tend to have the best of them all: the compilers are of high quality in general, IDEs are plentiful and full featured, the debuggers are far more capable than those for 8-bit chips, ...
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Offline BravoV

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Re: The best microcontroller development environement
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2013, 12:14:13 pm »
Definitely Eclipse. Its designed to be the best code development environment. Companies involved are IBM, Google, Oracle, SAP, etc. For most compiler vendors the IDE is just costing them money so they only provide the bare minimum to get newbies started quickly.

+1 , I know this sounds weird, as an enthusiast on my journey into ARM, Eclipse is the reason I sold my soul to choosed TI since spending time & energy from the scratch just for the "development environment" is way too much when migrating to new platform/architecture.

Simple yet valid reason, Eclipse is here to stay and will not just fade away say in next 5 or 10 years, and even though its far from perfect, chances on improving and getting better in the future is quite bright, imo.

Offline dannyf

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Re: The best microcontroller development environement
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2013, 01:50:24 pm »
Quote
Its designed to be the best code development environment.

I have yet to see someone sets out to design the 2nd best, or the 3rd best, or the worst, code development environment, :)

In terms of IDE, my favorite is CodeBlocks, followed by IAR's (highly consistent and utilitarian). VS + VAX is also quite good but bloated.

In terms of editors, Sublime Text (2/3) and SI are top notch.
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Online nctnico

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Re: The best microcontroller development environement
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2013, 03:11:28 pm »
Quote
Its (Eclipse) designed to be the best code development environment.

I have yet to see someone sets out to design the 2nd best, or the 3rd best, or the worst, code development environment, :)
In those cases its not called the 2nd best but its just designed to be mirrors and glimmers to go with a product.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline andyturk

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Re: The best microcontroller development environement
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2013, 04:36:34 pm »
... GCC is so well debugged and understood if you ever have issues the answer is always on Google.

Yep, GCC support for an architecture should be a requirement for serious projects. Even if you don't end up using it, the presence of a (free) GCC port means the architecture is well supported.
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: The best microcontroller development environement
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2013, 04:51:41 pm »
I generally avoid using "free" tools for commercial projects - your tools are the last thing you want to doubt. Strong vendor support is a must when your livelihood depends on it.

It is a different story if you are simply playing with for fun.
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Online nctnico

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Re: The best microcontroller development environement
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2013, 05:21:10 pm »
In the past I've worked for a company which grew into a multi-million euro multinational where we used GCC exclusively for programming in C/C++. BTW GCC is usually maintained by the manufacturer of the microcontroller / cpu core. Who else knows their products inside out?

The added value of commercial tools is a consistent development/debugging environment (Eclipse does that for free nowadays), a very optimised C/C++ library and a certified compiler (if you need that).
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 05:23:45 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: The best microcontroller development environement
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2013, 05:57:16 pm »
Quote
multi-million euro multinational

Are you trying to say that it is a tiny company?
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Offline Kjelt

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Re: The best microcontroller development environement
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2013, 07:05:48 pm »
The added value of commercial tools is a consistent development/debugging environment (Eclipse does that for free nowadays), a very optimised C/C++ library and a certified compiler (if you need that). 
+1 , and would add that for commercial companies the benefit of a commercial tool is the (fast) support you get.

Having said that I like to work with Keil uVision in my company, it works great but as a hobbyist I would never ever consider paying $5k for it  :(
 

Offline andersm

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Re: The best microcontroller development environement
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2013, 09:08:33 pm »
I'm an open-source advocate, and for me that filters out MicroChip/PIC and Texas Instruments MSP430 series
There is a GCC port for the MSP430 (mspgcc), and a new port sponsored by TI will be included in the next FSF release.

Offline timb

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Re: The best microcontroller development environement
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2013, 09:21:36 pm »
I'm an open-source advocate, and for me that filters out MicroChip/PIC and Texas Instruments MSP430 series
There is a GCC port for the MSP430 (mspgcc), and a new port sponsored by TI will be included in the next FSF release.

Yup, and it's really good. All of TI's libraries work just fine with it, as well. For someone who wants to go an easier route you can't beat Energia, which has the added benefit of running a lot of Arduino code with simple modifications.

There's also a template floating around that lets you use Xcode on OS X as your IDE for Energia development. You can also make your own simple Xcode template for using mspgcc directly outside of Energia if you want to build "pure" applications.

I've never seen what people saw in Eclipse myself. It seems bloated and slow.

Right now I use CodeRunner as my editor and just debug by hand most of the time.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; e.g., Cheez Whiz, Hot Dogs and RF.
 

Offline andyturk

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Re: The best microcontroller development environement
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2013, 04:12:18 am »
I generally avoid using "free" tools for commercial projects - your tools are the last thing you want to doubt. Strong vendor support is a must when your livelihood depends on it.

Open source *never* goes out of business.
 

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Re: The best microcontroller development environement
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2013, 05:38:11 am »
Not much point arguing about the 'best' development environment. For some people this will be a highly-integrated stand-alone environment. For others it's whatever tools integrate the best with their existing development environment, be it Eclipse, Visual Studio or Emacs. Some people prefer and trust commercial support, other prefer to have access to source so they can support themselves or pay someone they choose to support it.

After we agreed about the best development environment, can we go back to arguing about the best editor, compiler and MCU?
 

Offline madshaman

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The best microcontroller development environement
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2013, 08:18:17 am »
My two cents.  This is all like trying to figure out "what's the best colour".

I suggest starting with a project first, figuring out the requirements (this can be a conservative ballpark even..) then picking a uC that best meets the requirements.

Most dev environments are brain-dead or frustrating in one way or another; best to get familiar with many over time and not worry so much.
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Offline westfw

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Re: The best microcontroller development environement
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2013, 09:14:59 am »
Quote
I have yet to see someone sets out to design the 2nd best ... development environment
Really?  I'd claim that Arduino did that: "we don't care about best, we want SIMPLEST!"

Eclipse certainly seems to be the most widely used.  One problem (?) is that there are all those "eclipse based" IDEs that are so heavily customized that I don't know whether they look like Eclipse any more...  (But.  I am not an eclipse expert.  The last time I tried it I got annoyed that I couldn't get it to work "reasonable" with a dark background.)
 

Offline bench_knob

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Re: The best microcontroller development environement
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2013, 08:22:21 pm »
Aaaagh, its so hard to choose. ARM/PIC/AVR/8051. I thought maybe I should approach it from the direction of the development environment.

What is the most feature rich development environment for microcontrollers on the market.
I'm looking for things such as debug features, auto code generation, 21st century code editor, simulations, etc.

I recommend that you consider reading 'Computer Design' magazine, another is Embedded Systems (they went fully InterNet this year, no more print, I haven't read a single issue since, too many ads), it used to be good magazine for micro developers. In any case, they host surveys to help guide folks with development choices.  Its a thorny question you are asking, but it all basically distills down to, "what do you wanna do?"

YOU must understand what it is that YOU really desire in a tool. You want it to think for you? To write  code for you? Or do you desire that the tools reduce the laborious aspects of the programming tasks? If its the first, well, maybe you shouldn't be programming; if the latter, well, checkout guys such as GreenHills or IAR. Greenhills is the more expensive, their JTAG debuggers/ICE tools typically cost (does not include environment...just the HW), around $5,000, then the environment is around another $5000 per seat. Its feature rich, but generally is processor specific.  While the new Atmel AVR 'Studio 6' suite (doesn't run in WinXP SVCPK 3, sans all of the .NET updates, will not install), the suite is of course, Atmel controller centric, however it does employ much auto-code 'frame-works' and for all of their processors, which is nice, but ultimately, the programmer must know what it is that the framework generates.  And...Atmel's ICE only costs $500 while their JTAG-ICE Mark II, is around $250, and both environments are free, while providing numerous features found in the $7,500 ~ $15k price development systems.  But there is a distinct difference between the tools, its the matter of tech-support. In the old days, company's owned their SW bugs and helped their customers with those bugs for free, today, ya gotta pay for those work-arounds, or its tough-doodoo.

And then, hah hah hah, you nailed it. The text editors. My God, these commercial programmers are idiots. They boast these awesome environments and then stick in a note-pad for an editor, what're they smoking? Crack?   

NotePad could be laughable if it weren't so bad. Millions of Dollars are wasted because of NotePad programming environment editors. It stinks that bad. There are other competent text-editors out there, but not many meet the efficiency of the WordStar keyboard strategy or the productive usefulness, and none, as far as I know, are integrated into a commercial programming environment tool-suite.

So if money isn't an issue, go with the big boys. But if you are new to microcontrollers, what do you wanna do? Math oriented tasks? Then Texas Instruments DSP oriented chips could be the deal. Microwave ovens/dish washers?  Then 8 bit MicroChip PIC (or any of the dozens of other companies products, --ST, FreeScale, Renesys, etc) might be the ticket. But if you are interested in an in-between complexity programming such as doing XBee, WiFi, WebServers, AES/DES, DSL Modems, etc, then Atmel's AVR 8/16 bit XMega series processors are a good choice. And if wanna do something that's really resource intensive, then ARM chips are a good choice, 32bits and there are competent pay/and free tools available too. Then ya go out and find the tool-chain that suits your programming style.

Enough Yakin & Good Luck

bench knob
« Last Edit: November 09, 2013, 08:36:52 pm by bench_knob »
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Offline krenzo

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Re: The best microcontroller development environement
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2013, 09:04:45 pm »
I would like to add that it's definitely not NXP's LXPresso software for their ARM Cortex chips.
 

Offline idolstar

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Re: The best microcontroller development environement
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2013, 10:32:48 pm »
I second (or third) people who suggest pick a project and jump in. I started with PICs (quite recently) because we were doing an ethernet based project and a friend of mine had experience with a PIC18 chip that fit our needs. I spent $75 on a pickit3, and around $100 for the dev board. You don't need a dev board though, you can just start with a few chips. I have been using the pic12f1822 for a few projects which is tiny, cheap, well documented, and I think pretty good for starting out. The Atmel ATtiny series has chips with very similar capabilities which I imagine are also great for starting out like the ATtiny85.
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: The best microcontroller development environement
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2013, 12:10:30 am »
Quote
XMega

I feel like investing in XMega is no different than investing into PIC17 now.

Quote
it's definitely not NXP's LXPresso software for their ARM Cortex chips.

Numerous people recommending Eclipse may disagree with you on that.
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