Author Topic: the GNU GPL is a Communist ideal!!! (LOL)  (Read 14400 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline sokoloff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1799
  • Country: us
Re: the GNU GPL is a Communist ideal!!! (LOL)
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2018, 01:07:23 pm »
No, the GPL is not the perfect license. We could have used some open source and contributed back bug fixes and improvements, but we can't due to the license. Releasing our source code containing both company and military classified information is simply not possible.
Wait. What? I can think of cases where this is problematic, but the military equipment use case is not one of them generally.

The GPL compels you to make available source code only to that set of people to whom you release the binaries. It does not obligate you to release that source code to others.

So, if you're selling fighter jet radar units and you use GPL software inside, you have to make available your source code to those militaries, but not to Joe Blow on the street and not to the upstream providers of the GPL package (you don't even have to upstream any patches or changes if you choose not to, so long as you don't send them binaries).

Supposing a fighter jet is shot down and the radar unit finds its way into an adversary's hands. Do you worry that a court of competent jurisdiction will compel you to release the source code to that adversary in order to remain in compliance with the GPL? I sure don't.

(There are potential security concerns with open source software (of any license) being incorporated into sensitive products. If an adversary knows that your fighter is flying with software that includes open source software XYZ, there's an incentive to get a security vulnerability introduced into XYZ. This is obviously unrelated to specific choice of license.)
 
The following users thanked this post: cdev

Offline Karel

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2303
  • Country: 00
Re: the GNU GPL is a Communist ideal!!! (LOL)
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2018, 01:57:17 pm »
The GPL compels you to make available source code only to that set of people to whom you release the binaries. It does not obligate you to release that source code to others.

So, if you're selling fighter jet radar units and you use GPL software inside, you have to make available your source code to those militaries, but not to Joe Blow on the street and not to the upstream providers of the GPL package (you don't even have to upstream any patches or changes if you choose not to, so long as you don't send them binaries).

Very true, I forgot to mention that. Thank you!
 

Offline glarsson

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 814
  • Country: se
Re: the GNU GPL is a Communist ideal!!! (LOL)
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2018, 02:03:55 pm »
I am aware of this. But that doesn't matter. What matters is trying to get a complex license, with varying interpretations on the net and elsewhere, past the legal department. It's just not worth the trouble.
 

Offline ataradov

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12012
  • Country: us
    • Personal site
Re: the GNU GPL is a Communist ideal!!! (LOL)
« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2018, 04:20:14 pm »
Isn't static 'linking' really more like embedding the free library in the newly compiled software physically? So that it then doesn't require the shared and free library to be previously installed on the machine that runs the software, basically enclosing a copy of it inside itself?
Yes, it is. And in my world of embedded development, that's mostly what happens, there is really no dynamic linking for MCUs. And it would be stupid if it existed, anyway.

So GPL is useless for software that is designed to be embedded into other applications.
Alex
 

Offline ataradov

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12012
  • Country: us
    • Personal site
Re: the GNU GPL is a Communist ideal!!! (LOL)
« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2018, 04:25:09 pm »
There are many examples of companies who used and modified GPL'ed software and didn't wanto give back their sourcecode.
There is a chance that I don't want modifications from people that don't want to willingly contribute them back and work with the project. I don't want contributions made out of spite. I understand it is author's right to not use them, but still, why make people do more work.

The biggest reason for contributing back is so that your changes are integrated into mainline and you don't have to spend days porting things every time a new version comes out. And this is the driving force that will make people contribute back no matter what the licence is.
Alex
 

Offline Karel

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2303
  • Country: 00
Re: the GNU GPL is a Communist ideal!!! (LOL)
« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2018, 06:44:40 pm »
There are many examples of companies who used and modified GPL'ed software and didn't wanto give back their sourcecode.
There is a chance that I don't want modifications from people that don't want to willingly contribute them back and work with the project. I don't want contributions made out of spite. I understand it is author's right to not use them, but still, why make people do more work.

You are an exception. Most programmers who released GPL'ed software, don't like it if somebody or some company ads an interesting
feature or addition to it and starts to sell it and make money without releasing the sourcecode of the new feature or addition.
 

Online SiliconWizard

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16289
  • Country: fr
Re: the GNU GPL is a Communist ideal!!! (LOL)
« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2018, 06:57:03 pm »
Now this is getting interesting relating to the initial topic of this thread.

As ataradov clearly pointed out, free software as in GPL is not freedom of use. There is no direct connection to communism as we discussed above, but there is some definite connection with a very biased way of considering what is "free", thus potentially leading to some kind of totalitarian view of freedom. And maybe that's where we could find a remote link to communism, not in its ideas but in its essence.

The english language doesn't help here either, as "free" can have different meanings and be somewhat ambiguous, which in turn makes the term "free software" ambiguous at best.

Just my 2 cents.
 

Offline cdev

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • !
  • Posts: 7350
  • Country: 00
Re: the GNU GPL is a Communist ideal!!! (LOL)
« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2018, 07:32:55 pm »
It all comes down to questions like this:

Who 'owns' the Earth? Does anybody?

Why?
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline sokoloff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1799
  • Country: us
Re: the GNU GPL is a Communist ideal!!! (LOL)
« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2018, 07:47:06 pm »
Now this is getting interesting relating to the initial topic of this thread.

As ataradov clearly pointed out, free software as in GPL is not freedom of use.
GPL software is very much/maximally free to use from the perspective of the end user of that software.

That's the freedom that rms is primarily concerned about. He's not at all interested (at a maximum) and probably actively disinterested in preserving the freedom of developers to make unencumbered proprietary use of GPL software.
 
The following users thanked this post: Karel, newbrain

Offline cdev

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • !
  • Posts: 7350
  • Country: 00
Re: the GNU GPL is a Communist ideal!!! (LOL)
« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2018, 08:12:37 pm »
These days free basically is framed as the freedom to sell and buy anything of value, without any interference by anybody as to anything.

Under that definition, governments and their courts can't help protect free software or free anything else because its not profitable. There cant be any new public goods so no expansions of free public higher education. The more people need something, the more profitable it has to be. The price cant be based on cost plus some percentage. Thats the old way. In other words, what some would call price gouging is being quietly defined as the 'natural' state of things.

Everywhere freedom is increasingly being defined as commercial and what we think of as free software is being defined in a growing body of binding international agreements as deprecated anti-profit restriction.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline ataradov

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12012
  • Country: us
    • Personal site
Re: the GNU GPL is a Communist ideal!!! (LOL)
« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2018, 08:16:22 pm »
Courts upheld GPL a number of times, so we are all good here.
Alex
 

Offline cdev

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • !
  • Posts: 7350
  • Country: 00
Re: the GNU GPL is a Communist ideal!!! (LOL)
« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2018, 08:28:18 pm »
National courts aren't the forums I am really concerned about here. Its their task merely to make sure that the national laws conform to the agreements, and if they don't to rule against them.

Policy on things that impact international trade are often framed as not their jurisdiction. Its very hard to say about something like this. If it doesnt effect international trade, or has been explicitly excluded, like the US did with trading in onion futures, then you are okay. If we were arguing about onion futures, the WTO and its various bodies and panels and similar US style agreements that are everything in by default, if onion futures had been carved out of them, would have no jurisdiction.

But if not, they would, and decisions in them would preempt national laws.

Basically, the big problem is that similar to the expansion of the EU, the trade rules on services, attempt to create a means by which corporations that span borders, can utilize whichever of their workers they want, elsewhere, without red tape. Right now, its alleged that red tape is preventing these changes which could save the world millions of dollars (actually they claim this would save much more but I dont want to scare you) currently paid to powerful special interest groups like unions and professionals in places like the US and other developed countries. You should read the developing countries positions, straight from the sources, rather than having me explain them. To do that you need to go to the various organizations arguing their points of view. Basically, they want to get rich too, they say that the wealthy countries have been reaping all the benefits of world trade and they have been stuck with all these requirements to privatize all their public services and end subsidies to various groups, such as the poor, they have made this huge sacrifice *sob* and we have been getting rich leaving their firms out of the markets that they claim signing the agreement entitles them to serve, markets which they know they can win bids for, serve for less, because they pay so little. (Under WTO law that will entitle them to the work. That is unless its automated or the rich in some other poor country underbid them)

 the international fora cant change national laws, just assess countries with penalties worth millions or billions of euros, zlotleys, dollars or whatever until they conform.

What I am worried about is the problem of standing. People - and constructs like the GPL, may not even exist in these fora, except as markets the rights to whom are bought and sold.

Not existing, we have no voice.

Courts upheld GPL a number of times, so we are all good here.

Do you know anything about the so called "Third World Debt"? Basically, there is a scheme that they have been cooking up since the 80s, that was originally proposed simply as a way to 'increase efficiency' and double profits for the owners, and also some middlemen, its supposed to keep friendly governments in power, prevent the poor (many would also say corrupt) nations from defaulting on their debts.

Its going to be the largest wealth transfer in history. they clain downward but in fact it is all upward. Well, what if the firms who will be getting all those jobs, who frame it as the repayment of a debt that magically the developed nations now are supposed to owe them, claim that the GPL stands in the way of their taking full advantage of this deal? Right now everybody has access to all this software and everybody is improving it, where is the profit and especially exclusivity in that?  Just like they argue they have a legal and moral right to take advantage of their #1 advantage, really low wages, they will probably argue that any rule which prevents these giant firms from making exclusive use of the software and tools they develop, even if built on top of GPLed software, must be theirs alone, because otherwise they wouldn't make the profits they claim they are entitled to, as the repayment of this debt.

They may well claim these profits will be their entitlement, their payback for participating in the world trade agenda.  Ive been told many times by people arguing their points of view that this was the case, some right wing free trade think tanks here in the US also take this view, after all, businesses will save a lot of money they are currently almost represented as throwing away by paying wages that are much higher than the global average) but Ive also been told by authoritative experts that their interpretation of these deals was faulty, that nobody promised them all this, unless the whole deal was wrapped up - only then. Google the phrase "single undertaking".

In short, there is this huge controversy just simmering under the radar for everybody, which is the real trade dispute, the one they don't want to discuss. Its described as a very sensitive subject.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2018, 09:01:31 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline sokoloff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1799
  • Country: us
Re: the GNU GPL is a Communist ideal!!! (LOL)
« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2018, 09:38:53 pm »
Courts upheld GPL a number of times, so we are all good here.
Do you know anything about the so called "Third World Debt"? Basically, there is a scheme that they have been cooking up since the 80s, that was originally proposed simply as a way to 'increase efficiency' and double profits for the owners, and also some middlemen, its supposed to keep friendly governments in power, prevent the poor (many would also say corrupt) nations from defaulting on their debts.

Its going to be the largest wealth transfer in history. they clain downward but in fact it is all upward. Well, what if the firms who will be getting all those jobs, who frame it as the repayment of a debt that magically the developed nations now are supposed to owe them, claim that the GPL stands in the way of their taking full advantage of this deal? Right now everybody has access to all this software and everybody is improving it, where is the profit and especially exclusivity in that?  Just like they argue they have a legal and moral right to take advantage of their #1 advantage, really low wages, they will probably argue that any rule which prevents these giant firms from making exclusive use of the software and tools they develop, even if built on top of GPLed software, must be theirs alone, because otherwise they wouldn't make the profits they claim they are entitled to, as the repayment of this debt.

They may well claim these profits will be their entitlement, their payback for participating in the world trade agenda.  Ive been told many times by people arguing their points of view that this was the case, some right wing free trade think tanks here in the US also take this view, after all, businesses will save a lot of money they are currently almost represented as throwing away by paying wages that are much higher than the global average) but Ive also been told by authoritative experts that their interpretation of these deals was faulty, that nobody promised them all this, unless the whole deal was wrapped up - only then. Google the phrase "single undertaking".

In short, there is this huge controversy just simmering under the radar for everybody, which is the real trade dispute, the one they don't want to discuss. Its described as a very sensitive subject.
I've got be honest here, cdev: I read this 3 or 4 times (and googled single undertaking which was a sideline to the main topic). It's hard for me to extract anything other than "some crackpots spouted off somewhere not cited with some ominous-sounding crackpottery"...
 

Offline cdev

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • !
  • Posts: 7350
  • Country: 00
Re: the GNU GPL is a Communist ideal!!! (LOL)
« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2018, 09:58:20 pm »
Basically, everything is on the table. There are negotiations every two years.

If you want to understand whats being done you have to take the initiative to really spend some time reading the different positions. Trillions of dollars are supposedly at stake. Maybe half the world's GNP, if you trust the insanely optimistic (or pessimistic might be a better word) predictions of economists, many of whom are totally in a state of groupthink.

They know that people here in the US, especially, would go nuts if we knew. Thats why they are being so secretive.

I've got be honest here, cdev: I read this 3 or 4 times (and googled single undertaking which was a sideline to the main topic). It's hard for me to extract anything other than "some crackpots spouted off somewhere not cited with some ominous-sounding crackpottery"...

What determines prices, specifically wages, in the real world?

Competition, right?

Basically they are taking us back to the 1920s, legally. But setting up an international framework so the New Deal can never be re-established again.

What is called "services deregulation" is basically eliminating all the rules that which were put into place in the 20th century, after the 1920s. Its likely Social Security and Medicare will lose their protection from WTO rules and become just another investment also, Not just the regulations put in place in the 20th century, all the changes made after 2008 are also being eliminated too. 

WTO rules subsume national rules regulate governments concerning all "measures affecting trade in services".

« Last Edit: November 02, 2018, 11:04:26 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline ataradov

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12012
  • Country: us
    • Personal site
Re: the GNU GPL is a Communist ideal!!! (LOL)
« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2018, 10:17:16 pm »
I've got be honest here, cdev: I read this 3 or 4 times (and googled single undertaking which was a sideline to the main topic). It's hard for me to extract anything other than "some crackpots spouted off somewhere not cited with some ominous-sounding crackpottery"...
cdev likes to go on the incoherent "government is evil" rants.

I don't see how this relates to software licencing at all.
Alex
 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21611
  • Country: us
Re: the GNU GPL is a Communist ideal!!! (LOL)
« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2018, 10:38:25 pm »
I suppose it is communism in a sense, people contribute what they can, and benefit from the contributions of others. Communism in and of itself is not evil, it works in small, homogenous groups such as a commune of nuns. The typical family unit is a small scale example of communism, family members contribute by working for a paycheck and/or doing chores at home and family members each benefit from the contributions of the others. If a family member is sick or injured, other members pick up the slack and carry on. Where communism breaks down is when one tries to force it on a larger group of people who do not have an inherent interest in looking out for one another. This is why on larger scales you only see it happening with totalitarian dictatorships and of course it doesn't work very well.
 
The following users thanked this post: Karel

Offline cdev

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • !
  • Posts: 7350
  • Country: 00
Re: the GNU GPL is a Communist ideal!!! (LOL)
« Reply #41 on: November 02, 2018, 11:11:20 pm »
Anything Member governments do (or dont do) any policy or change or failure to act, can't hurt business as defined by their making the most money.


If somebody in another country can make a cogent argument to the WTO or RGFS or some other similar body that anything they do adversely impacts their profits, the WTO could demand that governments stop preventing their commercialization.

Some countries are supposed to be able to cash in big on services liberalization, as the big payback for participating, or so they claim. If they claim that rules of any kind stand in their way, (and they are already doing this about a number of US laws involving visas and work permission) they could easily win if it is decided their argument holds water.

Its hard to say. The entities involved appear to not all be taking the same position. One government agency in the biggest of these countries, an agency devoted entirely to their relationship with the WTO has actually published at least one fairly cogent discussion of the issue that is actually one of the better discussions of it Ive seen.

I've got be honest here, cdev: I read this 3 or 4 times (and googled single undertaking which was a sideline to the main topic). It's hard for me to extract anything other than "some crackpots spouted off somewhere not cited with some ominous-sounding crackpottery"...
cdev likes to go on the incoherent "government is evil" rants.

I don't see how this relates to software licencing at all.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2018, 11:14:10 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline MadTux

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 808
Re: the GNU GPL is a Communist ideal!!! (LOL)
« Reply #42 on: November 02, 2018, 11:15:15 pm »
I try to document all my projects as good as possible and really don't care if anyone copies them.
Most stuff is probably too bad, too special or too chaotic for anyone to use, so they won't. But if anyone comes along and needs exactly what I've done, I'm happy because I avoided someone to have trouble with something that I have already solved.

People who think open source is communist are either capitalist or narcissistic idiots who think their work is much more important than it really is. If they make good money with it, I can understand, but the latter are idiots that make the world a worse place to be in.
 

Offline ataradov

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12012
  • Country: us
    • Personal site
Re: the GNU GPL is a Communist ideal!!! (LOL)
« Reply #43 on: November 02, 2018, 11:16:17 pm »
Who does this rant benefit? This thread is not about what governments do, but what licence should a person pick for the project.
Alex
 

Offline ataradov

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12012
  • Country: us
    • Personal site
Re: the GNU GPL is a Communist ideal!!! (LOL)
« Reply #44 on: November 02, 2018, 11:17:59 pm »
I try to document all my projects as good as possible and really don't care if anyone copies them.
Most stuff is probably too bad, too special or too chaotic for anyone to use, so they won't. But if anyone comes along and needs exactly what I've done, I'm happy because I avoided someone to have trouble with something that I have already solved.
Exactly! My reward is knowing that someone benefited from my work. And if they were happy, they may refer other people. In the end this is the best way to "monetize" the stuff I publish for free.
Alex
 

Offline cdev

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • !
  • Posts: 7350
  • Country: 00
Re: the GNU GPL is a Communist ideal!!! (LOL)
« Reply #45 on: November 02, 2018, 11:28:15 pm »
Look up the EU's "non-paper" on "Mode Five services". Countries may wrongfully try to tax free software somehow. Especially bundled container apps.

Because they are / will be replacing people in large numbers, a process which is really only just beginning.

You have to understand countries all around the globe will likely shedding jobs like crazy and they may not behave all that rationally. In fact I think that is pretty much guaranteed to be happening. It already is here in the US.

Thats why I think making these "binding commitments" to trade jobs away, if indeed that is what was done, (see what i said earlier about the single undertaking) in the 1990s was perhaps the worst mistake ever made in recent policy history. These agreements are bad news for working people. We already have the GATS to thank for the 2008 financial services disaster. Thats easy to verify.

EDIT: Now this is interesting, Google seems to have scrubbed away links that used to be there to "mode five" in the context of trade in  services.  this is probably because that is exactly what they are selling, they have a horse in the race.

See if you can find this, I saved these PDFs

Chief Economist Note: "Thinking in a box: A ‘Mode 5’ approach to service trade"

also

Trade rules and technological change: the case for mode 5 services | International Centre for Trade and Sustainable Development
« Last Edit: November 02, 2018, 11:59:14 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline ataradov

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12012
  • Country: us
    • Personal site
Re: the GNU GPL is a Communist ideal!!! (LOL)
« Reply #46 on: November 02, 2018, 11:29:57 pm »
Countries may wrongfully try to tax free software somehow.
So what? What this has to do with a selection of a licence? Who cares what countries may want to tax.
Alex
 

Offline cdev

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • !
  • Posts: 7350
  • Country: 00
Re: the GNU GPL is a Communist ideal!!! (LOL)
« Reply #47 on: November 02, 2018, 11:32:23 pm »
I'm just trying to give you a heads up, don't blame me for this.

Here, read this:

Working Paper 37 Centre for WTO Studies

Trade Rules on Source Code: Deepening the Digital Inequities by Locking Up the Software Fortress
« Last Edit: November 03, 2018, 12:12:20 am by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline ataradov

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12012
  • Country: us
    • Personal site
Re: the GNU GPL is a Communist ideal!!! (LOL)
« Reply #48 on: November 02, 2018, 11:33:39 pm »
I'm just trying to give you a heads up, don't blame me for this.
You are hijacking threads with your political rants. Create a separate thread and complain there. People who want to see that will subscribe.
Alex
 

Offline NorthGuy

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3325
  • Country: ca
Re: the GNU GPL is a Communist ideal!!! (LOL)
« Reply #49 on: November 03, 2018, 12:12:56 am »
Exactly! My reward is knowing that someone benefited from my work. And if they were happy, they may refer other people. In the end this is the best way to "monetize" the stuff I publish for free.

You work for Microchip I've heard. Does the work you're doing for Microchip give you similar rewards - people using whatever you have done and being happy about it?
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf