Author Topic: This add-on module, can I remake it?  (Read 2319 times)

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Offline daisizhouTopic starter

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This add-on module, can I remake it?
« on: May 21, 2024, 09:50:40 am »
This is my test analyzer,The manufacturer has stopped providing after-sales support and calibration services.
I wish to make these add-on modules,But I don't know how to proceed, I would be grateful if you could help me

I disassembled the motherboard,The main MCU is a NEC D70320L,The main program is stored in M27C1001, and the calibration data is stored in AT28C64B.I took a photo of the motherboard.I read the firmware.

In the manual I read that it has 3 enhanced modules,The module and the host are connected through the DB15 interface,I disassembled the motherboard and followed the connection sequence of the DB15 interface to find DB25 on the motherboard and its corresponding connection.I tried to draw part of the motherboard schematic diagram.The U10 chip is a ULN2803A chip, and the U24 chip is a 74HC244N chip.It looks like the U10 chip is the high voltage reed relay and it's connected(my guess).

I got its user manual and service manual on the internet (service manual--schematics and pictures missing, and in Spanish)
user manual-->https://www.medwrench.com/documents/view/5647/fluke-biomedical-454a-dni-nevada-operators-manual
service manual-->https://mega.nz/file/OR01GZ6B#laQVZXlft00HI4faVpFJPNsceR_PI1TAKDzA-UbVht0




I shot a video introduction to the host system



« Last Edit: May 21, 2024, 01:15:48 pm by daisizhou »
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Offline daisizhouTopic starter

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Re: This add-on module, can I remake it?
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2024, 11:50:42 pm »
I further drew the schematic diagram, I don’t know if it will be helpful for analysis.
If someone can read the firmware, there may be new clues.

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Offline daisizhouTopic starter

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Re: This add-on module, can I remake it?
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2024, 09:03:42 am »
As seen in the main menu I don't know what the "AUXILIARY" option goes into since I don't have the add-on module.

If someone can reverse compile the firmware, firmware might be able to find a clue.

Looking forward to anyone who can help me, thanks
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Offline daisizhouTopic starter

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Re: This add-on module, can I remake it?
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2024, 12:18:01 am »
Is anyone able to read the firmware?I don't know how this firmware works
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Offline daisizhouTopic starter

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Re: This add-on module, can I remake it?
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2024, 11:21:27 am »
Is anyone able to reverse engineer the firmware? I've been waiting for help, thanks
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Offline janoc

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Re: This add-on module, can I remake it?
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2024, 01:20:22 pm »
Is anyone able to reverse engineer the firmware? I've been waiting for help, thanks

Sorry, and you really expect that someone will reverse engineer this for you so that you can copy this device? And for free to boot?  :palm:
 

Offline pcprogrammer

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Re: This add-on module, can I remake it?
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2024, 01:31:19 pm »
Is anyone able to reverse engineer the firmware? I've been waiting for help, thanks

Sorry, and you really expect that someone will reverse engineer this for you so that you can copy this device? And for free to boot?  :palm:

Can't blame him for trying.  >:D

But without a proper schematic of the whole device, reverse engineering is a bit more difficult. To make a proper analyzes addresses of peripherals need to be known, etc.

Get yourself a copy of Ghidra, if possible, and try to do it yourself. The V25 is based on Intel 8088. Google on how to use Ghidra.

Offline daisizhouTopic starter

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Re: This add-on module, can I remake it?
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2024, 01:32:56 pm »
Is anyone able to reverse engineer the firmware? I've been waiting for help, thanks

Sorry, and you really expect that someone will reverse engineer this for you so that you can copy this device? And for free to boot?  :palm:

Yes.
I have been looking for a detailed service manual or schematics, but unfortunately they are either not available or incomplete.
So in the end I had no choice but to reverse engineer the firmware to look for clues.

If you have better suggestions, please tell me, thanks
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Offline daisizhouTopic starter

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Re: This add-on module, can I remake it?
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2024, 01:40:01 pm »
Is anyone able to reverse engineer the firmware? I've been waiting for help, thanks

Sorry, and you really expect that someone will reverse engineer this for you so that you can copy this device? And for free to boot?  :palm:

Can't blame him for trying.  >:D

But without a proper schematic of the whole device, reverse engineering is a bit more difficult. To make a proper analyzes addresses of peripherals need to be known, etc.

Get yourself a copy of Ghidra, if possible, and try to do it yourself. The V25 is based on Intel 8088. Google on how to use Ghidra.

You mean I need to draw the circuit schematic further?  And try to find where all the pins of the NEC V25 are connected?
I'm not good at using software for reverse engineering. I'm only familiar with repairing parts of hardware circuits.
Thanks
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Offline pcprogrammer

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Re: This add-on module, can I remake it?
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2024, 01:49:42 pm »
You mean I need to draw the circuit schematic further?  And try to find where all the pins of the NEC V25 are connected?

That is the idea yes. Makes understanding what you are working on easier.

I'm not good at using software for reverse engineering. I'm only familiar with repairing parts of hardware circuits.

Guess it is time to learn something new then. Doubt that anyone is willing to do the work for you, without something in return.

Offline janoc

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Re: This add-on module, can I remake it?
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2024, 02:58:14 pm »

Yes.
I have been looking for a detailed service manual or schematics, but unfortunately they are either not available or incomplete.

I assume this is due to the cultural & language barrier.

But for your information, people charge top dollar for work like this, it is complex work requiring a very specific skill set. Expecting that you post a few photos into a forum and someone does it for you to free is rather ... naive in the best case and outrageous in the worst? People don't work for free, regardless whether it is fixing your car, plumbing or some software.

Never mind the entire legal aspect of the thing - that something is not supported by the original manufacturer anymore doesn't mean that it is OK to copy it. This may be common practice in China but in the West it is a good way to get sued and land in trouble. If someone takes this on, they will want to be compensated for the risk, as a minimum.

If you want to copy this and don't want to pay someone to do the work for you then you will need to learn how to do it yourself.
 

Offline pcprogrammer

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Re: This add-on module, can I remake it?
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2024, 03:17:50 pm »
People don't work for free, regardless whether it is fixing your car, plumbing or some software.

Some people do.  :)

Not earning a penny with the reversal of the FNIRSI-1014D. I do it just for the fun of it, and others can benefit. But that is different, nobody asked me to do it.

Offline daisizhouTopic starter

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Re: This add-on module, can I remake it?
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2024, 07:32:05 pm »

Yes.
I have been looking for a detailed service manual or schematics, but unfortunately they are either not available or incomplete.

I assume this is due to the cultural & language barrier.

But for your information, people charge top dollar for work like this, it is complex work requiring a very specific skill set. Expecting that you post a few photos into a forum and someone does it for you to free is rather ... naive in the best case and outrageous in the worst? People don't work for free, regardless whether it is fixing your car, plumbing or some software.

Never mind the entire legal aspect of the thing - that something is not supported by the original manufacturer anymore doesn't mean that it is OK to copy it. This may be common practice in China but in the West it is a good way to get sued and land in trouble. If someone takes this on, they will want to be compensated for the risk, as a minimum.

If you want to copy this and don't want to pay someone to do the work for you then you will need to learn how to do it yourself.

OK, Thanks
I have no plans to produce it or make money from it。I'm just an analytical instrument enthusiast
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Offline daisizhouTopic starter

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Re: This add-on module, can I remake it?
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2024, 07:37:13 pm »
People don't work for free, regardless whether it is fixing your car, plumbing or some software.

Some people do.  :)

Not earning a penny with the reversal of the FNIRSI-1014D. I do it just for the fun of it, and others can benefit. But that is different, nobody asked me to do it.

me too。Because the original modules are too expensive。
If I can succeed, I also plan to publish it for free and let friends who are still using 454a make it for free. I don’t want to make a profit from it.
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Offline yar

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Re: This add-on module, can I remake it?
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2024, 08:15:31 am »
The boards being expensive and/or hard to get does not free you (or anyone else) from the license you entered into with the company that assuredly prevents the kind of reverse engineering you're requesting, especially with intention of manufacturing replacements as opposed to, say enhancing them somehow.

PCP did some amazing work on the 1013/1014 scope project, but nobody is using that work to build copies of that scope just because we think they're too expensive. (That would be fairly insane on that scope, in fact...plus you'd still end up with a mediocre-minus scope)

Heed the silence and the warnings here as a hint. This is a landmine and opens people up for potential litigation. There are companies that earn $$$ doing this kind of work and STILL require stacks of legal papers to not open them up for exposure - and they'll likely flee if they find their work, even if you paid for it, being pushed to others as a way to circumvent purchasing the board. Ripping off other people's hardware is just not cool.

That looks like an early 90's design. There's also the real possibility that some of those components are out of manufacture and replacing them may involve both changes in the surrounding hardware AND software. At least two of the brand logos that I recognize are from companies that no longer exist.

Unless you have other motives and more skills than you're letting on (/me waves to PCP - that was a great series! Building the emulator was a great idea.) you will likely find your time and (even intangible) money better spent seeking replacements. If you're using it as a personal skill builder, well, good luck. The hints you've already gotten here will get you started, but you need to backfill a few years worth of skills to make good use of those hints.


Additionally, the very presence of the words "Biomedical" and "Electrosurgical" likely open additional rings of risk and potential litigation.

Fluke is known to be a super litigious company. I think they're also a sponsor of EEVBlog and it's entirely possible that someone there is reading this.
 

Offline TomKatt

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Re: This add-on module, can I remake it?
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2024, 11:02:28 am »
I'm still laughing at the "I have this complicated analyzer board - will someone reverse engineer it for me and help me build another one?"

Really.  Ain't gonna happen.  For so many reasons.  The least of which is the virtual impossibility of the task.
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Offline Postal2

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Re: This add-on module, can I remake it?
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2024, 12:38:56 pm »
...from the license you entered into ...
It's new for me. Now the slogan consists of 3 points:
- I can do it, but I don’t have time for it.
- I can do it, but I don't get paid a million for it.
- I can do this, but it is against the license (no matter which one).
I am very powerful and smart, but if you ask me to prove it with deeds, see 3 points above.
 

Offline daisizhouTopic starter

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Re: This add-on module, can I remake it?
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2024, 05:44:29 am »
This is an expired product。
I have no plans to sell it, I'm saying that if it succeeds。
I understand the license agreement.I just hope that friends who are still using this kind of host can get convenience and function upgrades, that's all.
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