Author Topic: Why Arduino users so agressive?  (Read 11248 times)

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Offline KL27x

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #125 on: August 23, 2019, 01:17:52 am »
Quote
Don't get upset if something becomes obsolete and unusable. Just move on.
I notice you did not answer the question.
There's a cheaper and potentially faster solution out there, and you're not using it. And you're in good company.
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #126 on: August 23, 2019, 01:45:30 am »
Techman-001, you are 100% correct, except for one thing. You talk about learning from your past.

Yes, if you are educated and proficient with STM devices and dev tools and supply chain, I'm sure there is almost no reason to use any other microcontroller in a volume product. Today. The cost of these devices can be significantly cheaper, even, than other devices that are way inferior in most ways (other than maybe some electrical specifications in some cases).

But if you learn from your past, you know this is a temporary situation. In X years from now, STM32 is obsolete, too! Perhaps not even due to technological advancement. It might be some other whim of industry or business or some other butterfly effect.

Assuming (some) people will still want a simple way to interact with hardware in ways that don't need the latest cutting edge speeds and memory and floating point math, the Arduino platform may avoid this fate. Either the AVR from 1970 will not become obsolete, because Arduino community will continue to use it in enough volume that Microchip/Atmel will not phase it out. Or the community will adapt and incorporate better more modern microcontrollers to the Arduino platform in a way that the average user will not have to learn much to use the new greatest and latest Arduino Pikachu. (One day, maybe Arduino Techman is created, even... with an STM32 on the board?)

Arduino means you don't have to keep learning in order to do the same things you always did... and not get bent over when that part becomes obsolete and starts to cost 4-5x as much. You can use that hammer for a whole bunch of nails. And you can learn to use the latest greatest fancy biscuit jointer if and when you have to. After you do so, you might like it so much you make everything with it.. but one day it is also badly obsolete and overpriced unobtanium... When that happen, you might still have a trusty hammer, lying around, which is at least good enough to drive nails. And in the future, the latest Arduino has more speed and capabilities and less bugs than it has today, even. The Arduino platform is sustained and evolved by its user base. It is not chained to a particular micro. I kinda doubt it is ever going to deviate from AVR family, but who knows.

If you are a high school or university, do you get to take choose your classes to learn STM32 or modern AVR or modern PIC? Not usually. You would need to find the teachers that continually learn and teach the latest cuttest edge devices and completely change and update curriculum. They can offer classes using Arduino, because it's simpler and because you can bet it will still be relevant in 10-20 years.

All excellent points and very well put, but I'm confused about one thing, why would anyone think that Microchip/Avr is any different or has any advantages compared to any other MCU manufacturer such as STM in terms of long term variability?

I doubt that STM will be going away anytime soon because their semiconductor portfolio is MASSIVE.

STM have been supplying power electronics, regulators, triacs, FETS etc for the last 30 years, they are a BEHEMOTH of a company.

Sure, chips will change and eventually these companies will be bought, sold, have name changes and maybe even fade away altogether ... that's life.

I remember being in awe of the Motorola 6800 and it was everywhere, I loved the ISA, to me it was smooth as silk ... but where is the 6800 today compared to ARM or PIC?

Every chip has it's day but the designer who is able to change and adapt will thrive, and ones fixated on a particular product usually fade away.

For me, here and now today, it's STM32, MSP340 and PIC (I have 200 off 18x and 24x PIC types in stock) for my MCU use. Between them they do all I need, and they all run Forth.

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #127 on: August 23, 2019, 02:06:25 am »
Writing embedded firmware from scratch can be enjoyable, but once it comes to implementing complex stuff like USB or Ethernet, using a library makes things a lot easier.

Agreed, but sometimes there is no library or driver and you need to write one yourself.

Matthias Koch and Bernd Paysan wrote a Forth Ethernet library for the Ti Tiva Connected Launchpad and it's smooth as silk, they use the board LEDS as connectivity indicators etc.

The biggest hardship they had was working thru the many errors in the Ti datasheet.

Offline KL27x

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #128 on: August 23, 2019, 03:47:43 am »
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why would anyone think that Microchip/Avr is any different or has any advantages compared to any other MCU manufacturer such as STM in terms of long term variability?
I agree. I don't know which one will be around longer. I assume they will all change. Today's STM32 will be tomorrow's Z80. Today's modern PIC will be the same.

In many cases, the only reason to not use the latest and greatest - when it actually can do the job at least as well if not better, and it actually is cheaper - is because of the learning curve. To a hobbyist, I suppose that just means more fun.

I am using modern 8 bit PICs, because they still do what I need. And it was easier to get here from where I started. I initially learned to use the basic and midrange, then went on to the first gen enhanced midrange, and now I am transitioning to the most modern enhanced midrange. The first jumps were for additional abilities and features, and the changes were minimal. The latest migration is 100% for availability and cost. I'm driving the same nails I ever was, but my hammer has become too expensive and unreliable to source. This latest migration involves learning a new IDE, which is a necessary evil. I wouldn't do it if I didn't need to. And if I knew how to use an even better and cheaper hammer, I would just go out and get that. One of the biggest reasons for me to stay with PIC is because the transition is easier. Code portability is another reason, due to ongoing project in production. And pin-for-pin compatibility is nice but not that big a deal. Really, the main reason is the whole learning thing.



« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 09:19:01 am by KL27x »
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #129 on: August 23, 2019, 08:14:57 am »
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why would anyone think that Microchip/Avr is any different or has any advantages compared to any other MCU manufacturer such as STM in terms of long term variability?
I agree. I don't know which one will be around longer. I assume they will all change. Today's STM32 will be tomorrow's Z80. Today's modern PIC will be the same.

In many cases, the only reason to not use the latest and greatest - when it actually can do the job at least as well if not better, and it actually is cheaper - is because of the learning curve. To a hobbyist, I suppose that just means more fun.

"Today's STM32 will be tomorrow's Z80" ... That's a epic quote because the Z80 slammed into industry's R&D departments like Orman's cannon slammed into the walls of Constantinople in 1453.

The Z80 reps dropped off beautifully written, free databooks and brochures and suddenly the Z80 was everywhere with STATIC registers that allowed the CLOCK to be slowed down and even stopped without data loss !

It was "Shock and Awe" and I was dazed and amazed. I later designed and made thousands of a small Z80 powered device that was coded with assembly on a TRS-80.

While nothing will replace the smooth as silk, orthogonal  ISA of the 6800 for me, the legendary status of the Z80 is written in history, well at least my history.

I remember reading the Z80 databook in 1977 and thinking 'how can I possibly understand and use all these registers properly ?' and while the STM32F had a similar effect on me in 2014, good data books, ready product availability, constant coding and projects always reduce the new and unknown to the hundrum, at least for me.

I'm not afraid of the STM32 becoming unavailable, I'm afraid of becoming BORED with it  :=\

Finally, I'm not a hobbyist, I've worked as a electronics technician all my life, mostly in R&D assisting engineers and I've loved every single day. I've worked for engineers  with zest, passion and foresight who loved what they did and inspired me. We all showed up at work at 7am and left at 10pm every day because the projects were our lives, nothing else mattered.

Some people work to live, I've always lived to work (in electronics).

And finally, to anyone reading this far. If electronics seems like work to you, and you hate the journey looking only to the destination every day  .....

 ---------------------- YOU'RE IN THE WRONG PROFESSION, DO SOMETHING ELSE THAT EXCITES AND AMAZES YOU ! ----------------------

Offline KL27x

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #130 on: August 23, 2019, 08:28:57 am »
Unfortunately, it doesn't matter what I do for a living. If I was a professional athlete, I would not enjoy playing the game. If I was a professional skydiver, jumping out of planes would be a chore.

I'd much rather be earning money off interest.

Now, I do like to make things. I'm just not on the cutting edge of technology. Lots of other people are using variety of microcontrollers that are not the best tool for the job. People use stuff other than STM32. They might say "I get a kick out of pushing a small chip to its limits." That just means they're too lazy to change. I'm just being more honest, and I admit it.

If you were using the most efficient and cheapest micro for every job, you would also have to learn to use 3 cent chinese microcontrollers. We all make tradeoffs with our time and effort.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 09:01:27 am by KL27x »
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #131 on: August 23, 2019, 08:35:21 am »

Using a modern 3.3 V MCU and $5 in driver chips to do what a $5 MCU board will do is fairly silly unless you *really* need something the modern MCU does.


Please explain why a $0.45 STM32L053 needs $5 in driver chips and a $5 (Arduino)  MCU board does not ? Try and be specific, I'm sure most on this forum will be able to follow you.


Because GPIB is 5 V TTL logic and the STM32 will not *drive* 5 V logic unless you add GPIB bus drivers.  The ATMEGA line will. 


Thank you for your example above regarding the STM32 which langwadt has already shown in this thread to be fallacious.

However one example you do illustrate clearly is that Arduino users by their very nature are not qualified to make such claims and should leave these things to engineers who actually know what they're saying.

Arduino, (in my opinion) because it draws Lay persons into its ranks like a moth to a flame, is responsible for generating the most ridiculous claims, passed on from one ignorant user to the next. This is perfectly understandable and although it may sound like I'm berating Arduino users, I'm not. Those that make these claims simply don't know any better.

And yours is a typical example.

Ignorant people read this stuff on the Internet and they think it's true so they pass it on.

AVR isn't special, it isn't blessed, angels didn't bring it to Earth in a silver chalice ... it's just another Microprocessor, another old microprocessor.

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #132 on: August 23, 2019, 08:54:15 am »
Unfortunately, it doesn't matter what I do for a living. If I was a professional athlete, I would not enjoy playing the game. If I was a professional skydiver, jumping out of planes would be a chore.

I'd much rather be earning money off interest.

Now, I do like to make things. I'm just not on the cutting edge of technology. Lots of other people are using variety of microcontrollers that are not the best tool for the job. People use stuff other than STM32.

If you were using the most efficient and cheapest micro for every job, you would also have to learn to use 3 cent chinese microcontrollers.

Um ... I gotta disagree with you here about every profession being a chore to everyone in it and I'm genuinely sorry for anyone who feels that way.

Without wonder and insight, acting is just a business. With it, it becomes creation.
- Bette Davis

Of course people use stuff other than the STM32, ... they also use STM8 ;-)

Seriously tho, I hope you didn't miss my posts where I mention I currently use and like STM32F and STM32L, MSP430, PIC18 and PIC24 chips ?

I did look at the 3 cent chinese microcontrollers, then I cleaned up the small spot of my vomit on the workshop floor and researched something else more interesting and useful.

Offline KL27x

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #133 on: August 23, 2019, 09:02:51 am »
Quote
Um ... I gotta disagree with you here about every profession being a chore to everyone
Never did I suggest that.
Quote
I'm genuinely sorry for anyone who feels that way.
Thanks. I wish I could be a happier slave.

Quote
Arduino, (in my opinion) because it draws Lay persons into its ranks like a moth to a flame, is responsible for generating the most ridiculous claims, passed on from one ignorant user to the next. This is perfectly understandable and although it may sound like I'm berating Arduino users, I'm not. Those that make these claims simply don't know any better.

And yours is a typical example.
I dunno if it matters, but, FWIW, I have never used an Arduino in my life. But I can appreciate what it does for those who it's catered to.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 09:23:34 am by KL27x »
 

Offline Fire Doger

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #134 on: August 23, 2019, 09:27:22 am »
We all showed up at work at 7am and left at 10pm every day because the projects were our lives, nothing else mattered.

I'd rather suicide than live a life without something interesting besides electronics  :horse: |O

Live to work is so wrong from so many perspectives....  :palm:
 

Offline ogden

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #135 on: August 23, 2019, 09:32:08 am »
Because GPIB is 5 V TTL logic and the STM32 will not *drive* 5 V logic unless you add GPIB bus drivers.  The ATMEGA line will. 
Thank you for your example above regarding the STM32 which langwadt has already shown in this thread to be fallacious.
You did not explain for those ignorant - how can STM32L053 drive 5V logic bus w/o level converter.
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #136 on: August 23, 2019, 09:37:38 am »
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Um ... I gotta disagree with you here about every profession being a chore to everyone
Never did I suggest that.
Quote
I'm genuinely sorry for anyone who feels that way.
Thanks. I wish I could be a happier slave.

Quote
Arduino, (in my opinion) because it draws Lay persons into its ranks like a moth to a flame, is responsible for generating the most ridiculous claims, passed on from one ignorant user to the next. This is perfectly understandable and although it may sound like I'm berating Arduino users, I'm not. Those that make these claims simply don't know any better.

And yours is a typical example.
I dunno if it matters, but, FWIW, I have never used an Arduino in my life. But I can appreciate what it does for those who it's catered to.

Ooops, my BAD, so you didn't. Apologies. You were only describing your own attitude on the matter.

Various employers thought they could make a slave out of me at various times. I left on the spot, walked right out and into a better job. Somehow I survived to this decrepit old age :)

My Arduino quote was directed solely at RHB, not at you.

I have a Arduino kit, I bought 6 for my children. None of them do electronics, none of them will ever read this forum. Arduino is perfect for them.

None of them have ever used the Arduino kits I sent them.

I have never used mine in any project, but I remember being blown away at HOW EASY it was to blink a LED with Arduino.

I plugged the small Arduino PCB into my Linux box, installed the Linux Arduino package, selected the BLINKY sketch and clicked the upload.

The  Arduino LED started blinking and I had NO CLUE what had just happened, but it was very impressive. I put the box away in my collection of curios and went back to designing embedded electronics from the bare metal upwards.

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #137 on: August 23, 2019, 09:41:31 am »
Because GPIB is 5 V TTL logic and the STM32 will not *drive* 5 V logic unless you add GPIB bus drivers.  The ATMEGA line will. 
Thank you for your example above regarding the STM32 which langwadt has already shown in this thread to be fallacious.
You did not explain for those ignorant - how can STM32L053 drive 5V logic bus w/o level converter.

Were you born lazy or is your browser scroll button simply broken ?

Scroll down to where langwadt explains why.

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #138 on: August 23, 2019, 09:53:40 am »
We all showed up at work at 7am and left at 10pm every day because the projects were our lives, nothing else mattered.

I'd rather suicide than live a life without something interesting besides electronics  :horse: |O

Live to work is so wrong from so many perspectives....  :palm:

You think ....

It's people like you that DIDN'T get the USA to a manned Moon landing in 11 years and who DIDN'T make working, self landing, reusable first stage rocket boosters.

Yesterday belongs to you and your ilk, and if you think my enthusiasm is limited solely to electronics then you're as unimaginative as you are  mundane.

Offline KL27x

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #139 on: August 23, 2019, 09:58:21 am »
Quote
Various employers thought they could make a slave out of me at various times. I left on the spot, walked right out and into a better job. Somehow I survived to this decrepit old age :)
Heh. I have a pretty good thing going. I have been my own boss in my own business for over a decade. I work how I want, when I want. I get to solve unique problems, regularly, and I take pride in my work. Most importantly, I use a large variety of skills and never have to do the same thing for an extended period. This is pretty much as good as I can imagine, short of winning the lottery.

But I'm a slave to a mortgage. I'm a slave to building a retirement. I'm a slave to my health insurance. I was born a slave. Most of us were. We don't wear physical chains, anymore, and we have a great illusion of freedom. But it is what it is. 95% of us are slaves. Money doesn't motivate me; but I need to make it.

Quote
I have a Arduino kit, I bought 6 for my children. None of them do electronics, none of them will ever read this forum. Arduino is perfect for them.
My brother has suggested I teach my nephew what I do. I'm reluctant for a couple reasons, but one is because I'm obsolete. I was obsolete when I started, and I didn't gain any ground in the meantime. Arduino is a much better idea for him, IMO.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 10:10:20 am by KL27x »
 

Offline ogden

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #140 on: August 23, 2019, 10:11:42 am »
Because GPIB is 5 V TTL logic and the STM32 will not *drive* 5 V logic unless you add GPIB bus drivers.  The ATMEGA line will. 
Thank you for your example above regarding the STM32 which langwadt has already shown in this thread to be fallacious.
You did not explain for those ignorant - how can STM32L053 drive 5V logic bus w/o level converter.
Were you born lazy or is your browser scroll button simply broken ?
Please keep it professional.

Quote
Scroll down to where langwadt explains why.
So you agree to claim that (3.3V) STM32L053 can be directly connected to 5V GBIP bus? That is not even fallacy, that is outright wrong. Hint: GPIB is multi-master bidirectional bus.
 

Offline ogden

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #141 on: August 23, 2019, 10:20:39 am »
Live to work is so wrong from so many perspectives....  :palm:

Some/few people may dedicate their whole life to their job and is OK as long as they are happy with it. Doing job you hate - that is so wrong.
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #142 on: August 23, 2019, 10:21:59 am »
Quote
Various employers thought they could make a slave out of me at various times. I left on the spot, walked right out and into a better job. Somehow I survived to this decrepit old age :)
Heh. I have a pretty good thing going. I have been my own boss in my own business for over a decade. I work how I want, when I want. I get to solve unique problems, regularly, and I take pride in my work. Most importantly, I use a large variety of skills and never have to do the same thing for an extended period. This is pretty much as good as I can imagine, short of winning the lottery.

But I'm a slave to a mortgage. I'm a slave to building a retirement. I'm a slave to my health insurance. I was born a slave. Most of us were. We don't wear physical chains, anymore, and we have a great illusion of freedom. But it is what it is. 95% of us are slaves.

Quote
I have a Arduino kit, I bought 6 for my children. None of them do electronics, none of them will ever read this forum. Arduino is perfect for them.
My brother has suggested I teach my nephew what I do. I'm reluctant for a couple reasons, but one is because I'm obsolete. I was obsolete when I started, and I didn't gain any ground in the meantime. Arduino is a much better idea for him, IMO.

I've also worked for myself the last 15 years, I found the perfect employer in the end, one who really understood me ;-)

If I had your outlook, I'd say "I'm a slave to oxygen, if I can't get enough I'll die" or "I'm a slave to water" or "I'm a slave to gravity" . I just don't bother with any of these thoughts.

No man is a island, we all depend on each other in a interlocking maze of webs. Your wisdom and life experience could be very helpful for your nephew, please pass it on before you are lost to the dust of history and to him. If he is intelligent he will relish and benefit from the opportunity. Your brother obviously feels the same way.

Personally I only have the occasional problem with Arduino users, not with people who have used Arduino. I used a Arduino once, it didn't stunt my growth or make the milk curdle.

P.S. If you ever have any STM32 questions at the basic hardware stage and thought I could help, I'd be pleased to do so gratis. Don't hesitate to PM me on this subject. Conditions: no HLL language related questions except Forth, and please understand I may not have a answer or solution.

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #143 on: August 23, 2019, 10:31:10 am »
Because GPIB is 5 V TTL logic and the STM32 will not *drive* 5 V logic unless you add GPIB bus drivers.  The ATMEGA line will. 
Thank you for your example above regarding the STM32 which langwadt has already shown in this thread to be fallacious.
You did not explain for those ignorant - how can STM32L053 drive 5V logic bus w/o level converter.
Were you born lazy or is your browser scroll button simply broken ?
Please keep it professional.

Quote
Scroll down to where langwadt explains why.
So you agree to claim that (3.3V) STM32L053 can be directly connected to 5V GBIP bus? That is not even fallacy, that is outright wrong. Hint: GPIB is multi-master bidirectional bus.

It's up to you to support your claim that the STM32L053 can't be directly connected to 5V GBIP bus.

If I want a hint, I'll phone the Psychic Friends Network not you.

Please take your 'professional' trolling elsewhere or learn to actually put some effort into your followups.

Online newbrain

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #144 on: August 23, 2019, 10:52:20 am »
BMK?
Not a an English language acronym.
In fact, not an acronym at all.

It's the short version of bimbominkia, an Italian neologism formed adjoining the word for little child "bimbo", and one of the many (vulgar) words for male genitalia "minchia" (with a k instead of ch, a vice many youngsters affect in their electronic communications).

A "Dickchild" is a petulant ignoramus, incapable of understanding any concept that goes further from their immediate gratification, with high feelings of entitlement.
In general, their language skill skill are abominable, in whatever language they try to express themselves.

Hey, there's even an urban dictionary entry for it, even if it does not convey the full meaning.

Though usually referred to a male young person, I've seen examples of all ages, sex, and political orientation.
Nandemo wa shiranai wa yo, shitteru koto dake.
 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #145 on: August 23, 2019, 11:13:25 am »
It's up to you to support your claim that the STM32L053 can't be directly connected to 5V GBIP bus.

If I want a hint, I'll phone the Psychic Friends Network not you.

Please take your 'professional' trolling elsewhere or learn to actually put some effort into your followups.
You claim STM32 is a functional substitute. The onus is on you to provide evidence. Pointing at messages of other people requires including a link to said message as the onus is still on you. Without the provided evidence the claim is to be considered unproven.
 

Offline ogden

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #146 on: August 23, 2019, 11:25:52 am »
It's up to you to support your claim that the STM32L053 can't be directly connected to 5V GBIP bus.

@langwadt missed to mention 5V-tolerant I/O as precondition. Perhaps Arduino users are ignorant, but seems like stm32 users are arrogant :D
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #147 on: August 23, 2019, 11:27:38 am »
It's up to you to support your claim that the STM32L053 can't be directly connected to 5V GBIP bus.

If I want a hint, I'll phone the Psychic Friends Network not you.

Please take your 'professional' trolling elsewhere or learn to actually put some effort into your followups.
You claim STM32 is a functional substitute. The onus is on you to provide evidence. Pointing at messages of other people requires including a link to said message as the onus is still on you. Without the provided evidence the claim is to be considered unproven.

You're yet another troll unable to follow a thread, or who has a broken browser down button.

 :=\

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #148 on: August 23, 2019, 11:31:11 am »
It's up to you to support your claim that the STM32L053 can't be directly connected to 5V GBIP bus.

@langwadt missed to mention 5V-tolerant I/O as precondition. Perhaps Arduino users are ignorant, but seems like stm32 users are arrogant :D

Personally I'll take arrogant over ignorant any day.

I'm still waiting for you to actually read this thread and comprehend it.

It's never going to happen is it ?

Offline ogden

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #149 on: August 23, 2019, 11:33:54 am »
I'm still waiting for you to actually read this thread and comprehend it.
It's never going to happen is it ?

What are you talking about. Quote or pointer/link please.
 


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