Author Topic: Why Arduino users so agressive?  (Read 11689 times)

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Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #150 on: August 23, 2019, 11:39:02 am »
I'm still waiting for you to actually read this thread and comprehend it.
It's never going to happen is it ?

What are you talking about. Quote or pointer/link please.

There you go, HTH.

https://www.webopedia.com/TERM/T/thread.html

Thread
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In online discussions, a series of messages that have been posted as replies to each other. A single forum or conference typically contains many threads covering different subjects. By reading each message in a thread, one after the other, you can see how the discussion has evolved.

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #151 on: August 23, 2019, 11:45:27 am »
There you go, HTH.

https://www.webopedia.com/TERM/T/thread.html

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In online discussions, a series of messages that have been posted as replies to each other. A single forum or conference typically contains many threads covering different subjects. By reading each message in a thread, one after the other, you can see how the discussion has evolved.
Thank you. It helps to simply state your source rather than to assume everyone has seen every single message so far. Including it is a minor effort as you already know where it is. Regardless of that are you claiming 3.3V and 5V logic is completely interchangeable without the need for logic level shifters ever?
 

Online langwadt

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #152 on: August 23, 2019, 11:46:24 am »
It's up to you to support your claim that the STM32L053 can't be directly connected to 5V GBIP bus.

@langwadt missed to mention 5V-tolerant I/O as precondition. Perhaps Arduino users are ignorant, but seems like stm32 users are arrogant :D

first page of STM32L053  datasheet:  Up to 51 fast I/Os (45 I/Os 5V tolerant)
 

Online ogden

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #153 on: August 23, 2019, 11:53:29 am »
By reading each message in a thread, one after the other, you can see how the discussion has evolved.

Here we go, speaking of Trolls.  :-DD

In this thread people talk about so many things. It is hard to guess what exactly you have in mind now. GPIB, moon landing or slavery?

@langwadt missed to mention 5V-tolerant I/O as precondition. Perhaps Arduino users are ignorant, but seems like stm32 users are arrogant :D

first page of STM32L053  datasheet:  Up to 51 fast I/Os (45 I/Os 5V tolerant)

Bingo. Correct answer. Logic level compatibility alone is not enough for successful bidirectional signalling between 3.3V and 5V logic. You did mention *only* logic level.
 

Offline donotdespisethesnake

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #154 on: August 23, 2019, 12:04:54 pm »
It's up to you to support your claim that the STM32L053 can't be directly connected to 5V GBIP bus.

@langwadt missed to mention 5V-tolerant I/O as precondition. Perhaps Arduino users are ignorant, but seems like stm32 users are arrogant :D

Personally I'll take arrogant over ignorant any day.

I'm still waiting for you to actually read this thread and comprehend it.

It's never going to happen is it ?

Why so aggressive? Are you trying to confirm the OPs statement, for a different subset of users? Also, you are wrong.  :palm:

BTW, excellent trolling by the OP, well done Sir!  One short clickbait post leads to 7 pages of blather :clap:
Bob
"All you said is just a bunch of opinions."
 
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Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #155 on: August 23, 2019, 12:10:13 pm »
There you go, HTH.

https://www.webopedia.com/TERM/T/thread.html

Thread
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In online discussions, a series of messages that have been posted as replies to each other. A single forum or conference typically contains many threads covering different subjects. By reading each message in a thread, one after the other, you can see how the discussion has evolved.
Thank you. It helps to simply state your source rather than to assume everyone has seen every single message so far. Including it is a minor effort as you already know where it is. Regardless of that are you claiming 3.3V and 5V logic is completely interchangeable without the need for logic level shifters ever?

You'd like me to do your reading for you "because it's easier" and a "minor effort" ?

Hold on a second while I laugh myself into apoplexy ...

If it's such a 'minor effort' perhaps even you could manage reading the entire thread yourself  and you never know, it might prevent you from jumping to stupid conclusions and looking like a moron.

... or not.

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #156 on: August 23, 2019, 12:18:09 pm »
It's up to you to support your claim that the STM32L053 can't be directly connected to 5V GBIP bus.

@langwadt missed to mention 5V-tolerant I/O as precondition. Perhaps Arduino users are ignorant, but seems like stm32 users are arrogant :D

Personally I'll take arrogant over ignorant any day.

I'm still waiting for you to actually read this thread and comprehend it.

It's never going to happen is it ?

Why so aggressive? Are you trying to confirm the OPs statement, for a different subset of users? Also, you are wrong.  :palm:

BTW, excellent trolling by the OP, well done Sir!  One short clickbait post leads to 7 pages of blather :clap:

One can't please everybody. You call me 'aggressive', other team members in Emergency Services used to tell me I'm wasn't aggressive enough ...

I like to think of myself as 'firm but friendly'.

You'll have to pardon me if I ignore your generic claim that I'm "wrong", because you also can't be bothered doing any actual work to substantiate it.

Started by a troll ? perhaps.

Nevertheless I'm enjoying this topic and if you're from the "international authority of electron wastage and inefficiency" please speak to someone else I'm just a visitor here.

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #157 on: August 23, 2019, 12:49:08 pm »
You'd like me to do your reading for you "because it's easier" and a "minor effort" ?

Hold on a second while I laugh myself into apoplexy ...

If it's such a 'minor effort' perhaps even you could manage reading the entire thread yourself  and you never know, it might prevent you from jumping to stupid conclusions and looking like a moron.

... or not.
In online discussions or even real life your supposed to provide evidence for the claims you make. That's what asked of you. It's also generally expected not to behave like an agressive grating troll.
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #158 on: August 23, 2019, 01:10:46 pm »

In online discussions or even real life your supposed to provide evidence for the claims you make. That's what asked of you. It's also generally expected not to behave like an agressive grating troll.

Excellent tenets to live by !

Do you plan to start following them any time soon ?

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #159 on: August 23, 2019, 01:28:02 pm »
Excellent tenets to live by !

Do you plan to start following them any time soon ?
Not quite the clever response I was hoping for but I was probably expecting too much. Start following them and you may even find an employer willing to suffer you again!
 

Online NorthGuy

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #160 on: August 23, 2019, 01:31:02 pm »
I notice you did not answer the question.
There's a cheaper and potentially faster solution out there, and you're not using it. And you're in good company.

I will use anything which best fit my requirements.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #161 on: August 23, 2019, 01:31:55 pm »
Well OPs theory was just misproven also non Arduino users can be verbally aggressive  :-DD
 

Online NorthGuy

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #162 on: August 23, 2019, 02:19:28 pm »
If I had your outlook, I'd say "I'm a slave to oxygen, if I can't get enough I'll die" or "I'm a slave to water" or "I'm a slave to gravity" . I just don't bother with any of these thoughts.

You never know the value of water until the well is dry.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #163 on: August 23, 2019, 02:32:44 pm »
Well OPs theory was just misproven also non Arduino users can be verbally aggressive  :-DD

Note that he never said otherwise. He said Arduino users were agressive. That didn't imply that non-users were not. You guys are hurting my logic.  :popcorn:

 
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Online Mr. Scram

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #164 on: August 23, 2019, 02:33:59 pm »
Note that he never said otherwise. He said Arduino users were agressive. That didn't imply that non-users were not. You guys are hurting my logic.  :popcorn:
It's hard to prove a negative but so far we've not seen much proof of it being correct.
 

Online NorthGuy

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #165 on: August 23, 2019, 02:36:06 pm »
Perhaps Arduino users are ignorant, but seems like stm32 users are arrogant :D

They both are arrogant (not all users, but some of them are). Hence the original point of this thread.

When you choose something based on popularity, you must convince yourself that what you have chosen is great. Hence, you simply must be arrogant.

When you choose things based on some sort of analysis, you don't have to prove anything. You can stay humble.
 
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Online KL27x

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #166 on: August 23, 2019, 07:29:27 pm »
Quote
I will use anything which best fit my requirements.
This is something I have heard repeated many times. But it is not very practical. Most people will gravitate towards a tool that is already in the toolbox. If you are going to do the programming, yourself, you start with what you know. It is not like sorting through a list of specs and choosing the cheapest one that meets parameters, then buying it, designing the PCB, and then just figuring out how to program the micro as an afterthought. You might do that sort of search, but then you'll compare it to what you already know.

You also consider time/work to use it. Until you cross a certain threshhold of cost/inconvenience, you might continue using what you already have available, regarding knowledge. I use some PIC that cost more than STM32 (or TI device, or Renesas, or...) in volume, and where the cheaper device should work absolutely fine. I'm sure you do, too. You still avoid answering this question.

Some people are still hoarding logic chips, because that's what they know. Why don't they just use FPGA and/or microcontrollers? (Yeh, I know they can occasionally be quite handy when fixing or modifying stuff; so a raaco drawer filled with every variety can be useful, sure. Live and let live).

Microcontrollers are by their very nature a multitool. You don't need to use the exact best one for every use. You can drive a variety of different screws with any one of them.

I flatten an occasional board with a hand plane. It's not cuz I don't know jointers and power planers exist. It's not cuz I like the workout. It's because I don't do very much of this, and this is just one part of a much bigger process of "making stuff," which requires a lot of other tools and space. If I needed to do a lot of this task, I might buy a jointer and a power planer. AFTER acquiring these tools, even if I have just one board to flatten a year, I would do it the easy way. In the same way, Techman will probably use an STM32 for many things I would do with a PIC. If and when I ever learned how to use an STM32, I would do the same. You call it lazy, if you want. Everyone does it. You do too.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 08:44:54 pm by KL27x »
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #167 on: August 23, 2019, 07:51:13 pm »
On another thread, the OP needs to generate some 400 Hz 3 phase signals.  One way to do that is with a function generator chip like the AD9833.  There is a possibility, yet to be confirmed, that these need to have 120 degree phase separation.  And they need to be amplitude modulated but that's off topic here.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/trying-to-emulate-three-synchros-using-arduino/

The AD9833 allows for setting the phase offset although I have no idea what it is in relation to.  Nevertheless, it can be set.

What do you know, there is an Arduino Library for the device.  I ordered a couple of demo boards and I probably won't need to write more than 50 lines of code to get both devices running at 400 Hz with the appropriate phase shift.  Read that again!  I don't have to write a bunch of low level library code.  It's already done!

https://github.com/Billwilliams1952/AD9833-Library-Arduino/tree/master/examples

There's 363 lines of low level code I don't have to figure out.  Not that I can't but it's nice that I don't have to!

And there are a couple of examples...

Here are the demo boards, I bought the last two but there are others...

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B076LF3LFC/ref=ppx_od_dt_b_asin_title_s00

So why bother with somebody else's project?  Well, I do a bit of analog computing and it might be nice to have an adjustable sin()/cos() generator.  Maybe it would be nice to have adjustable phase (relative to what?) and I already have analog multipliers for scaling.  It has nothing to do with servos but the device might just be fun to play with.

And the vast majority of the code is already done!

« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 07:56:25 pm by rstofer »
 

Online NorthGuy

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #168 on: August 23, 2019, 08:15:42 pm »
On another thread, the OP needs to generate some 400 Hz 3 phase signals.  One way to do that is with a function generator chip like the AD9833.  There is a possibility, yet to be confirmed, that these need to have 120 degree phase separation.  And they need to be amplitude modulated but that's off topic here.

The AD9833 allows for setting the phase offset although I have no idea what it is in relation to.  Nevertheless, it can be set.

What do you know, there is an Arduino Library for the device.  I ordered a couple of demo boards and I probably won't need to write more than 50 lines of code to get both devices running at 400 Hz with the appropriate phase shift.  Read that again!  I don't have to write a bunch of low level library code.  It's already done!

There's 363 lines of low level code I don't have to figure out.  Not that I can't but it's nice that I don't have to!

I don't understand what the fuzz about. I've never used AD9833 before, but I looked at the datasheet and pent 5 minutes on it (less time than I spend typing this post).

It is simple SPI interface, with only 4 registers. You just set 28-bit frequency and 12-bit phase register. That's all. See, I already know how to set the phase, and you're yet to figure how to use your library. Reading datasheet has put me way ahead of where you are with the library.

You don't need anywhere close to 363 lines. It's probably easier to control the device directly than using the library - just few lines of code to pass two values through SPI.
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #169 on: August 23, 2019, 08:47:53 pm »
Of course I know how to do it, with or without the library.  For a one-off experiment I'll probably use the library.  I won't use an Arduino, in this case, because I have the Teensy 4.0 sitting on my table.  Somehow it all works out.  I just use a processor that runs at 600 MHz and is at least 20 times faster than the Due.  Same crappy IDE...

Now, if the library doesn't work, right out of the box, I'll replace the code with my own.  Yes, it will be a lot shorter.

But the point of the library is that the OP on the other thread doesn't even know how to code in C much less understand the machinations of SPI.  For a first approximation, he won't need to know much coding.

A better place to start in that it explains the API and the included functions (which I didn't have to write!):

https://github.com/Billwilliams1952/AD9833-Library-Arduino

« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 08:52:43 pm by rstofer »
 

Online NorthGuy

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #170 on: August 23, 2019, 08:56:13 pm »
... If you are going to do the programming, yourself, you start with what you know. It is not like sorting through a list of specs and choosing the cheapest one that meets parameters, then buying it, designing the PCB, and then just figuring out how to program the micro as an afterthought. You might do that sort of search, but then you'll compare it to what you already know.

What I know may not fit. So, yes I would do parametric search to find what I need. Say, last month I was looking for a good MCU with HS USB. I haven't found anything really good, but the best candidate I found was SAM (regardless of the fact that there was PIC32MZ which I am familiar with and I even have two boards with PIC32MZ and USB). The project got scrapped, but if it didn't, I would be working with SAM now. Could've been STM32 if it had better characteristics than SAM.

Of course, other things being equal, I would prefer a PIC because I know lots about them and I like lots of things they have. Not because they're cheap, but because they're cycle accurate and have good periphery (from my subjective viewpoint). And they fit the bill most of the time (there are 1000+ of different PICs to choose from, of which I have may be 300 or 400 different models to try immediately if I need to). They often have the best price as well. But this is now. This may no longer be the case 5, or 10, or 20 years from now.
 

Online KL27x

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #171 on: August 23, 2019, 09:06:50 pm »
Re Ogden:
langwadt, in response to declaration as fact that STM32 can't drive a GBIP bus, stated to the effect: 3.3V is more than enough to exceed TTL Vih of ~2.0V by a safe margin.

You challenge this with:
Quote
@langwadt missed to mention 5V-tolerant I/O as precondition.

Langwadt kindly comes back here and explains that most of the I/O are 5V-tolerant.

And so now you're back to :
Quote
Logic level compatibility alone is not enough for successful bidirectional signalling between 3.3V and 5V logic. You did mention *only* logic level.

Can you explain why you go round and round? What do you mean by "only" logic level? Do you think there's too much voltage drop and noise over 20 feet of cable? Or that it will significantly limit signal integrity and speeds? 3.3V is obviously not as much as 5V, but are you saying this just doesn't work when reason says it will? Langwadt covered the output side; he covered the input side. Both directions covered; you still not happy.

NorthGuy: "They [PIC] often have the best price as well." I'm not so sure this is true in the last 20 years, at least in the 8 bit arena. I agree there are a lot of variations, but this is not really a plus if the other micro comes with all of the peripherals and still costs less. 20 years ago, PIC was much better than almost any other micro manufacturer for availability in small to medium quantities to small buyer/individual. But increasingly they are not alone in this.


« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 09:41:03 pm by KL27x »
 

Online NorthGuy

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #172 on: August 23, 2019, 09:22:13 pm »
But the point of the library is that the OP on the other thread doesn't even know how to code in C much less understand the machinations of SPI.  For a first approximation, he won't need to know much coding.

Why not? Is it noble to die without knowing how to code?

And if he's going to learn, why not to start from basics? That's how they do it in college, and it works well, at least it used to.
 

Online NorthGuy

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #173 on: August 23, 2019, 09:28:47 pm »
NorthGuy: "They [PIC] often have the best price as well." I'm not so sure this is true in the last 20 years, at least in the 8 bit arena. I agree there are a lot of variations, but this is not really a plus if the other micro comes with all of the peripherals and still costs less. 20 years ago, PIC was much better than almost any other micro manufacturer for availability in small to medium quantities to small buyer/individual. But increasingly they are not alone in this.

We finally agree on something. Things are changing all the time. Impossible to see the future is. Anyone must be prepared to adjust. Restricting your choices is not the best thing to do.
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #174 on: August 23, 2019, 09:53:59 pm »
But the point of the library is that the OP on the other thread doesn't even know how to code in C much less understand the machinations of SPI.  For a first approximation, he won't need to know much coding.

Why not? Is it noble to die without knowing how to code?

And if he's going to learn, why not to start from basics? That's how they do it in college, and it works well, at least it used to.

I don't know how the OP in the other thread will approach it.  What I do know is that it will be a shorter hill to climb if the hard stuff is already done.

I suspect he is more interested in getting the indicator to work than he is in a post graduate degree in computer engineering with side helpings of power electronics (100VDC sine wave output) and analog electronics (analog multipliers to modulate the phase amplitude).

For my simple experiment, all I want to do is get two signals generated and then prove that I can shift the phase of one with respect to the other.  Whether I ever build up a board to interface with my analog computers is really a separate subject.  The knowledge will be there when the application comes around.

But first steps first:  Get one board running and sending an output.  Then figure out how to do three boards (with or without the library) and then, finally, get the phase shifting working.  Rotary encoder to kick the phase a little?  Well, there's a library for that...
 


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