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Offline L1L1

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #75 on: August 22, 2019, 08:29:47 am »
Hi

I`m old tech from 70th without any programming background
But interested in AVR too just for fun
It is so funny and EASY to solder and program AVR  now :-+

But every time I google for AVR projects I`m furious about agressive Arduino users  :rant:

Is Arduino a sect?  :-//

I've seen quite the opposite: arrogant and sometimes aggressive behavior from "old-school" engineers towards the Arduino or maker community. You can spot it here sometimes in these forums.

The typical scenario is:
  • Someone has built a simple circuit with an AVR chip and some Arduino code but has a question/problem, needs a bit of help.
  • Old-school" guy will respond with one of these answers:
    • Why are you using Arduino? It's for kids, it's bloated, it's badly designed, etc.
    • Technical mumbo-jumbo about the "poor" choice of the op-amp, adc, mosfet, or whatever, designed to show that the "old-school" guy is very smart/knowledgeable.
    • Harsh comments about the bad layout of the boards or the schematic
  • None of the responses help the user with his problem/question, which is often simple.

My take is that these "old-school" guys feel insecure about the fact that tons of new people are doing electronics today for fun, and it's never been so easy. They are no longer the gatekeepers of a complex world unavailable to the profane. They feel that it's unfair that the Arduino UNO sold boatloads while their own project, which is vastly superior in terms of complexity, design, layout, EMC and safety only sold a dozen (costing 20 times more).

Be kind. Be patient. Have fun. Share your knowledge and make it accessible to people who know much less than you. This is what Dave Jones does and this one of the reasons for his success IMO.
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #76 on: August 22, 2019, 08:30:32 am »
No no no!

Your competitors want you to keep on using obsolete MCU's in your products, they love you just as you are and would hate you to change a single thing!
Obsolete as in probably the few parts that will still be available in two decades due to them being ubiquitous and sold in huge numbers to a very distributed crowd?
 

Offline JPortici

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #77 on: August 22, 2019, 08:48:49 am »
 :popcorn:
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #78 on: August 22, 2019, 08:53:46 am »
I'm not trying to convince anyone to change from Arduino, I say 'use what works for you'.

However ... anyone who quotes a Arduino mantra by way of trying to claim that AVR is in *any way* superior to ARM Cortex-M  is just begging for a rebuttal from someone like me who has the experience to know otherwise.

Let's take an example of a product dear to eevblogs heart, the 121GW multi meter. What is the MCU in that ?

Is it a AVR ? is it a PIC ?

It's only a multimeter, surely it doesn't need one of those 1000 plus page manual STM Micros ??

I'm sure a Mega328 is PLENTY, just find the Arduino 121GW 'library' and it's done ... 5 minutes with a $5 Arduino Nano board. Perfect! Just ask RMB.

OH HEAVENS!!! it's a ST ARM Cortex M3 processor !!

Now Dave was very tactful about why the designer removed the initial PIC MCU giving no reasons why that might have been so as to not upset anyone and I applaud his marketing skills.

Dave did however go on to rave about how the SD card facility made upgrading and other features very easy in this outstanding instrument which had it been the original PIC would have required a cable, a PickitX or some hardware and lots of warranty returns for bricked units and angry buyers advertising in every online forum "to stay away from this junk".

The designers knew what they were doing  :-+

If I didn't already have a decent multimeter, I'd be buying a 121GW tomorrow and as it is I recommend the 121GW to anyone who asks me "what multimeter should I buy".

It's a no brainer, ... thanks to STM32.
Poor show. Trolls and shills on here tend to be a bit more clever than this. It won't really boost your STM stock either.
 

Online techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #79 on: August 22, 2019, 08:55:00 am »
No no no!

Your competitors want you to keep on using obsolete MCU's in your products, they love you just as you are and would hate you to change a single thing!
Obsolete as in probably the few parts that will still be available in two decades due to them being ubiquitous and sold in huge numbers to a very distributed crowd?

An interesting question but sadly I can't predict the future, however I have a clear memory of the past and I can look there for trends.

20 years ago in 1999 I was selling small quantities of a specialist industrial sensor (my own design) which used a PIC chip. Utterly reliable, some of my original units are still in use today. I used C back then and I'm still 100% happy with PIC reliability.

The price of that PIC MCU, which is still available today is USD 5.50 from Alibaba, however my current MCU of choice the STM32F051 was $0.56 USD each in 2014.
If my old PIC could speak, it would worship the STM32F051 like it was a GOD.

This is in line with my observations of old and obsolete chips, the mfr keeps the line going for replacement parts but the cost keeps going up and up.

So I'm agreeing with you that obsolete parts will still be available in 20 years, but your's won't be the ONLY ones. Most other obsolete chips will probably still be available but expensive.

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #80 on: August 22, 2019, 08:58:32 am »
An interesting question but sadly I can't predict the future, however I have a clear memory of the past and I can look there for trends.

20 years ago in 1999 I was selling small quantities of a specialist industrial sensor (my own design) which used a PIC chip. Utterly reliable, some of my original units are still in use today. I used C back then and I'm still 100% happy with PIC reliability.

The price of that PIC MCU, which is still available today is USD 5.50 from Alibaba, however my current MCU of choice the STM32F051 was $0.56 USD each in 2014.
If my old PIC could speak, it would worship the STM32F051 like it was a GOD.

This is in line with my observations of old and obsolete chips, the mfr keeps the line going for replacement parts but the cost keeps going up and up.

So I'm agreeing with you that obsolete parts will still be available in 20 years, but your's won't be the ONLY ones. Most other obsolete chips will probably still be available but expensive.
What's your definition of obsolete? The manufacturer states the 328P is in production. They also recommend it for automotive design which typically means it will be supported for a long time to come. That's as good a guarantee as you can get in this field.
 

Online ogden

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #81 on: August 22, 2019, 09:03:59 am »
I'm not trying to convince anyone to change from Arduino, I say 'use what works for you'.

You just did. With flying colors.

Quote
However ... anyone who quotes a Arduino mantra by way of trying to claim that AVR is in *any way* superior to ARM Cortex-M  is just begging for a rebuttal from someone like me who has the experience to know otherwise.

Let's take an example of a product dear to eevblogs heart, the 121GW multi meter. What is the MCU in that ?

No. Let's take an example we already know, "flash LEDs on a jacket or automate a sculpture". Both are weekend projects you may never "manufacture" in bigger quantities that one. For such project you just take what's in your bin [edit] and do not plan to write project-specific Forth. For many it is Arduino, you and me would prefer BluePill, others may use BeagleBoard. Nothing wrong with either choice as long as you do not miss your deadline nor blow your budget.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 09:08:55 am by ogden »
 
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Online techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #82 on: August 22, 2019, 09:08:07 am »

Poor show. Trolls and shills on here tend to be a bit more clever than this. It won't really boost your STM stock either.

Cry me a river pal ...

I just checked my STM stock, and no one has 'boosted' it ...
480x STM32f051
20x STM32F103
10x STM32L053
10x STML162
1x STM32L073
2x STM32F407

oh ... were you fantasizing about some other kind of "stock" ?
 
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Offline CJay

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #83 on: August 22, 2019, 09:18:33 am »
Hi

I`m old tech from 70th without any programming background
But interested in AVR too just for fun
It is so funny and EASY to solder and program AVR  now :-+

But every time I google for AVR projects I`m furious about agressive Arduino users  :rant:

Is Arduino a sect?  :-//

Only in as much as any processor, OS, manufacturer fanboy is.

You'll find the same kind of idiot on Linux, Windows, Apple, Arduino, Pi, PIC, Intel, AMD forums etc. etc. except there's an added layer of stupid on Arduino because it's such a mass market thing.
M0UAW
 
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Online techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #84 on: August 22, 2019, 09:22:13 am »
I'm not trying to convince anyone to change from Arduino, I say 'use what works for you'.

You just did. With flying colors.

Quote
However ... anyone who quotes a Arduino mantra by way of trying to claim that AVR is in *any way* superior to ARM Cortex-M  is just begging for a rebuttal from someone like me who has the experience to know otherwise.

Let's take an example of a product dear to eevblogs heart, the 121GW multi meter. What is the MCU in that ?

No. Let's take an example we already know, "flash LEDs on a jacket or automate a sculpture". Both are weekend projects you may never "manufacture" in bigger quantities that one. For such project you just take what's in your bin [edit] and do not plan to write project-specific Forth. For many it is Arduino, you and me would prefer BluePill, others may use BeagleBoard. Nothing wrong with either choice as long as you do not miss your deadline nor blow your budget.

Absolutely, I could never argue with logic like yours.

I would use Forth and any STM32 MCU that was suitable and in stock as it's a theoretical weekend job with a deadline.

I always write project-specific Forth!

:  Jacket1  ." FORTH LOVE? IF HONK THEN " cr ;

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #85 on: August 22, 2019, 09:27:29 am »
Cry me a river pal ...

I just checked my STM stock, and no one has 'boosted' it ...
480x STM32f051
20x STM32F103
10x STM32L053
10x STML162
1x STM32L073
2x STM32F407

oh ... were you fantasizing about some other kind of "stock" ?
Well you're obviously very intent on emphasizing the benefits of the latest and greatest STM devices and also obviously intent on causing a stir.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 09:29:27 am by Mr. Scram »
 

Online techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #86 on: August 22, 2019, 09:33:08 am »

So I'm agreeing with you that obsolete parts will still be available in 20 years, but yours won't be the ONLY ones. Most other obsolete chips will probably still be available but expensive.
What's your definition of obsolete? The manufacturer states the 328P is in production. They also recommend it for automotive design which typically means it will be supported for a long time to come. That's as good a guarantee as you can get in this field.

How about "Outmoded in design, style, or construction." ?

Atmel would recommend it for your Grandmothers Pacemaker if they thought it would sell extra units, are you really this gullible ?

Offline JPortici

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #87 on: August 22, 2019, 09:33:59 am »
No no no!

Your competitors want you to keep on using obsolete MCU's in your products, they love you just as you are and would hate you to change a single thing!
Obsolete as in probably the few parts that will still be available in two decades due to them being ubiquitous and sold in huge numbers to a very distributed crowd?

An interesting question but sadly I can't predict the future, however I have a clear memory of the past and I can look there for trends.

20 years ago in 1999 I was selling small quantities of a specialist industrial sensor (my own design) which used a PIC chip. Utterly reliable, some of my original units are still in use today. I used C back then and I'm still 100% happy with PIC reliability.

The price of that PIC MCU, which is still available today is USD 5.50 from Alibaba, however my current MCU of choice the STM32F051 was $0.56 USD each in 2014.
If my old PIC could speak, it would worship the STM32F051 like it was a GOD.

This is in line with my observations of old and obsolete chips, the mfr keeps the line going for replacement parts but the cost keeps going up and up.

So I'm agreeing with you that obsolete parts will still be available in 20 years, but your's won't be the ONLY ones. Most other obsolete chips will probably still be available but expensive.

FYI #1, it's unlikely that you will get a better price than from microchip itself. There is no obsolete PIC, you just need to order one reel if it's something that's not officially in stock.
FYI #2, we still have products going strong after 20 years. the only thing we replaced over time was the PIC, nothing else. The pic was replaced with a pin-to-pin compatible, suggested upgrade mostly because they want you to use new stuff by pumping up the price of the old stuff, and up until very recently it was just a matter of selecting a new chip, correct the configuration bits, recompile, program, test. (More recently with the new interrupt controller it required the rewrite of the ISR but no biggie)
FYI #3, given your apparently big experience you should know that some certification processes are so expensive and require so much time to test that you'd much rather use the old pre-approved part and firmware. (But of course you know it, i'm just pointing this out for the new guys who don't)

back to  :popcorn:
 

Offline legacy

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #88 on: August 22, 2019, 09:41:12 am »
Why are you using Arduino? It's for kids, it's bloated, it's badly designed, etc.

Well, I do not use Arduino, but if I did, it would be because Massimo Banzi was so funny when he said that "Arduino gives you so much restless power under your fingertips that you can even (potentially?) make your own interface for spaceships".

A few radio telescopes have recorded some activity from Proxima Centauri, it might be intelligent life there, organic or inorganic (IA? surviving the organic life extinction?), so I have always dreamed to reach that place on a homemade rocket.

(sorry, my humor)  ;D
 
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Online techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #89 on: August 22, 2019, 09:42:13 am »

oh ... were you fantasizing about some other kind of "stock" ?
Well you're obviously very intent on emphasizing the benefits of the latest and greatest STM devices and also obviously intent on causing a stir.

"Well you're obviously very intent on emphasizing the benefits of the latest and greatest STM devices"

Has this become a crime in the last 5 minutes ? Do you have the statutes and regulations handy to paste here for all to see ?

"and also obviously intent on causing a stir."

No, I'm not after your job, so relax.

Offline legacy

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #90 on: August 22, 2019, 09:54:53 am »
I personally think that the Arduino+AVR crowd are missing out of they stick with the original H/W, and would be better served moving to Micropython on a 32-bit platform with an IDE like uPyCraft for the low barrier to entry embedded platform

Yup, I remember that someone told Banzi something similar years ago when Arduino2 was announced and someone was thinking about putting ucPython in a pocket calculator (now it's a commercial product), and Massimo replied something like "no! because I do know how to run my business and how to teach people, and the Wiring/C++ is the only way".

-

ucPython, or eLUA, anyway.
 

Offline westfw

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #91 on: August 22, 2019, 09:59:19 am »
Yes, of course Arduino is a sect...  so what?


My STM stock is doing pretty good, thank.  Up about 141% since I bought it 4 years ago, not counting the “more than my bank pays me” dividends...
MCHP has done a bit better, but I got scared recently and sold off 75% of my holdings.  (Still ambiguous as to whether that was a good idea.)


I wish I could invest in Adafruit.  They’re closest to doing “the right stuff” for the hobbyist and similar users..., Imo.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 11:42:35 am by westfw »
 

Online techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #92 on: August 22, 2019, 10:01:30 am »
No no no!

Your competitors want you to keep on using obsolete MCU's in your products, they love you just as you are and would hate you to change a single thing!
Obsolete as in probably the few parts that will still be available in two decades due to them being ubiquitous and sold in huge numbers to a very distributed crowd?

An interesting question but sadly I can't predict the future, however I have a clear memory of the past and I can look there for trends.

20 years ago in 1999 I was selling small quantities of a specialist industrial sensor (my own design) which used a PIC chip. Utterly reliable, some of my original units are still in use today. I used C back then and I'm still 100% happy with PIC reliability.

The price of that PIC MCU, which is still available today is USD 5.50 from Alibaba, however my current MCU of choice the STM32F051 was $0.56 USD each in 2014.
If my old PIC could speak, it would worship the STM32F051 like it was a GOD.

This is in line with my observations of old and obsolete chips, the mfr keeps the line going for replacement parts but the cost keeps going up and up.

So I'm agreeing with you that obsolete parts will still be available in 20 years, but your's won't be the ONLY ones. Most other obsolete chips will probably still be available but expensive.

FYI #1, it's unlikely that you will get a better price than from microchip itself. There is no obsolete PIC, you just need to order one reel if it's something that's not officially in stock.
FYI #2, we still have products going strong after 20 years. the only thing we replaced over time was the PIC, nothing else. The pic was replaced with a pin-to-pin compatible, suggested upgrade mostly because they want you to use new stuff by pumping up the price of the old stuff, and up until very recently it was just a matter of selecting a new chip, correct the configuration bits, recompile, program, test. (More recently with the new interrupt controller it required the rewrite of the ISR but no biggie)
FYI #3, given your apparently big experience you should know that some certification processes are so expensive and require so much time to test that you'd much rather use the old pre-approved part and firmware. (But of course you know it, i'm just pointing this out for the new guys who don't)

back to  :popcorn:

#1, we can't possibly know all the MCU pricing deals in my opinion.
#2, I can't argue there and 20 years is a long time. I have stated my faith in PIC reliability above.
#3, Was that sarcasm :)  I personally know the agony of producing products daily by the thousands, month after month, that badly needed design improvement to increase yield by reducing rework but which could not be altered because ... CE certification.

Watch those calories :)

Offline legacy

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OT, ucPython on 32bit-cpu, commercial products
« Reply #93 on: August 22, 2019, 10:02:06 am »






Firstly appeared on NumWorks, a Python calculator
Python snakes its way to the CASIO  Graphing fx-CG50 PRIZM
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #94 on: August 22, 2019, 10:03:12 am »
Well this thread is a rollercoaster  :-DD
 

Online techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #95 on: August 22, 2019, 10:21:26 am »
I personally think that the Arduino+AVR crowd are missing out of they stick with the original H/W, and would be better served moving to Micropython on a 32-bit platform with an IDE like uPyCraft for the low barrier to entry embedded platform

Yup, I remember that someone told Banzi something similar years ago when Arduino2 was announced and someone was thinking about putting ucPython in a pocket calculator (now it's a commercial product), and Massimo replied something like "no! because I do know how to run my business and how to teach people, and the Wiring/C++ is the only way".

-

ucPython, or eLUA, anyway.

I'm a Forth user but don't tell the Arduino users here please ;-)

Are you referring to the NumWorks Graphing Calculator ? Mecrisp-Stellaris Forth has a port for that. It doesn't implement the sleep modes and will flatten the battery after a day so use a power pack.

   Flashing of Mecrisp-Stellaris to the numworks calculator:
   dfu-util -i 0 -a 0 -s 0x08000000 -D mecrisp-stellaris-numworks-with-sources.bin
   No need to disassemble your calculator, terminal is on USART6: PA11 = D- = TX. PA12 = D+ = RX.
   Just cut an old USB cable and connect it to a USB-serial-brige with 115200 Baud 8N1.
 

I also reviewed both ucPython, and eLUA and they are both pretty slick projects, very nicely done I thought. They do require a LOT of Flash and RAM compared to Forth, and are about 300x slower. Forth itself seems about 3x slower than GCC compiled C in my tests.

Offline legacy

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #96 on: August 22, 2019, 10:34:44 am »
I also reviewed both ucPython, and eLUA and they are both pretty slick projects, very nicely done I thought. They do require a LOT of Flash and RAM compared to Forth

Yup, they are for "big-MPUs", but this can make sense nowadays. For example, ucPython runs decently on the CASIO above, and it's more than useful on the Numworks calculator.

The CASIO-BASIC is cool (and has improved a lot since the first CASIO FX-7500), but ucPython is better :D

There was an interesting project with Forth: the GameDuino1. It's an Arduino-Shield (5V, it fits on Arduino-2009 boards) with a Xilinx FPGA (Spartan3/200-LE-something) on it performing a sort of graphical VDU with a VGA interface, and it's able to accept Forth-like statements via SPI.

The FPGA implements a stack machine (written in Verilog) which is somehow "Forth-modified" but still "Forth-compliant".

Potentially it's very powerful, but ... people have never appreciated it so much, in fact, the second generation, the GameDuino2 is completely different.
 

Online techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #97 on: August 22, 2019, 11:13:44 am »
I also reviewed both ucPython, and eLUA and they are both pretty slick projects, very nicely done I thought. They do require a LOT of Flash and RAM compared to Forth

Yup, they are for "big-MPUs", but this can make sense nowadays. For example, ucPython runs decently on the CASIO above, and it's more than useful on the Numworks calculator.

The CASIO-BASIC is cool (and has improved a lot since the first CASIO FX-7500), but ucPython is better :D

There was an interesting project with Forth: the GameDuino1. It's an Arduino-Shield (5V, it fits on Arduino-2009 boards) with a Xilinx FPGA (Spartan3/200-LE-something) on it performing a sort of graphical VDU with a VGA interface, and it's able to accept Forth-like statements via SPI.

The FPGA implements a stack machine (written in Verilog) which is somehow "Forth-modified" but still "Forth-compliant".

Potentially it's very powerful, but ... people have never appreciated it so much, in fact, the second generation, the GameDuino2 is completely different.

Yes, "big-MPUs" are everywhere now and very cheap, the embedded game is changing rapidly.

in 1975 when I had to build a 128 byte Fusible Link ROM burner I was amazed at this new mass storage.

In 1997 a PIC16C84 had 1KB Flash and 36 Bytes RAM and I thought I was in mass storage heaven!

In 2019 I can write a Forth Blinky on a Ti Tiva running Mecrisp-Across which will apart from emulating Forth on the 2KB Flash Tethered MSP430 Target via JTAG, compile a fully executable binary of 80 bytes and Flash it to the Target. So in 2019, even 2KB of Flash can seem like a lot.
Except in this case the Tethered Target appears to have 64KB Flash :)

https://mecrisp-across-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/index.html

My head is still spinning from your "It's an Arduino-Shield" ... line, some people make the most esoteric things with Forth and the rest of us wonder what and why.


Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #98 on: August 22, 2019, 11:37:10 am »
Well this thread is a rollercoaster  :-DD
More like a lazy trollercoaster.   ;D
 
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Offline Howardlong

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #99 on: August 22, 2019, 11:44:07 am »
in 1975 when I had to build a 128 byte Fusible Link ROM burner I was amazed at this new mass storage.

You're two years before me on this, but I do remember a 256 byte OTP TTL fuse ROM costing about GBP50 in 1977, or about GBP300/USD370 a pop in today's money. It was the most expensive part of our design. We didn't have emulators, they cost about the same as a house. We grit our teeth and hoped we'd got the firmware right from hand-coded machine code.
 


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