Author Topic: Why Arduino users so agressive?  (Read 11842 times)

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Offline 001

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Why Arduino users so agressive?
« on: August 21, 2019, 10:27:13 am »
Hi

I`m old tech from 70th without any programming background
But interested in AVR too just for fun
It is so funny and EASY to solder and program AVR  now :-+

But every time I google for AVR projects I`m furious about agressive Arduino users  :rant:

Is Arduino a sect?  :-//
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2019, 10:32:26 am »
Hi

I`m old tech from 70th without any programming background
But interested in AVR too just for fun
It is so funny and EASY to solder and program AVR  now :-+

But every time I google for AVR projects I`m furious about agressive Arduino users  :rant:

Is Arduino a sect?  :-//
I think most people have no idea what you're talking about so being more specific may help.  :)
 
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Offline ucanel

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2019, 10:48:17 am »
Arduino has break the huge barrier
between ordinary people and electronic so the
thin line that separates courage from stupidity
has been broken also.
 
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Offline amyk

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2019, 11:33:58 am »
I've seen plenty of stupid, but not so much aggressive...
 
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Offline Rerouter

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2019, 11:46:15 am »
There is a line between arduino and raw AVR, most don't want to leave the comfort zone, so they reinforce themselves with reasons to not leave it

If all you have is a hammer, a lot of problems start looking like nails, but when you have been solving problems by hitting them with a hammer for too long, your not going to handle things too well when someone hands you a saw to cut down a tree in an hour when you have spent the last 2 weeks denting it.

The arduino community you can treat like youtube comments, raw unfiltered human minds, the general bias to a younger audience means things will have less tact, but there will still be some knowledge shared, equally if you keep answering the same beginners questions on a forum over and over again, I myself have in the past devolved into starting to mix one previous user into how I perceive the current one, and that just leads to the feeling your talking to someone who is forgetful, when in fact its not the same person. just to give the view point of the other side.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2019, 11:48:48 am »
Speaking as someone who played with AVRs using assembler before Arduino was a "thing"...  I wouldn't go back to that except for very specific reasons.

Every time I google for info on Arduino I find tons of helpful people sharing all kinds of information, at every level of sophistication.

The big community is one of the best things about Arduino as a hobbyist's / experimenter's platform....



« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 11:50:32 am by SilverSolder »
 
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Offline legacy

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2019, 12:38:22 pm »
"BMKs"(1) *seems* to be the real problem with Arduino.

There are too many around with zero skills, they are complete unskilled on anything regarding computer science because they do not even try to learn something, they go around the internet looking for a quick solution for their crazy projects or for someone who makes their homework, and the problem with forums is that there are awful mods who randomly flush away users because they are tired to handle BMK ones.

So, it's my personal opinion that "probably" aggressive users are just trying to defend their living space on the internet from BMKs.

edit:
(1) BMK is the most polite internet neologism to describe the kind without being rude. They can be adults or kids, who behave in a silly way regarding internet resources.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 03:01:23 pm by legacy »
 

Offline Seekonk

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2019, 01:03:32 pm »
There is always someone coming along saying you have to use this new and better chip or language.  99.9% of the applications for a micro are quite mundane with no need for speed or hardware advantage. In a way I miss the old days of assembly language where you had to fit everything into 1K of memory.  But the packages are all black and you can't see the code inside. Who cares what the program looks like. I think it is those other people that complain about Arduino that have a stick up their butt.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2019, 01:27:57 pm »
"BMKs" is the real problem with Arduino.

There are too many around with zero skills, they are complete unskilled on anything regarding computer science because they do not even try to learn something, they lazy around the internet on their daddy;s or mammy's laptop looking for a quick solution for their crazy projects(1) or for someone who makes their homework, and the problem with forums is that there are awful mods who randomly flush away users because they are tired to handle BMK ones.

So, it's my personal opinion that "probably" aggressive users are just trying to defend their living space on the internet from BMKs.
BMK?
 

Online ogden

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2019, 01:44:45 pm »
"BMKs" is the real problem with Arduino.

There are too many around with zero skills, they are complete unskilled on anything regarding computer science because they do not even try to learn something, they lazy around the internet on their daddy;s or mammy's laptop looking for a quick solution for their crazy projects(1) or for someone who makes their homework, and the problem with forums is that there are awful mods who randomly flush away users because they are tired to handle BMK ones.

So, it's my personal opinion that "probably" aggressive users are just trying to defend their living space on the internet from BMKs.
BMK?
Same question here. Unlikely it is "Baby Mouse Kidney"  :-DD
https://www.acronymfinder.com/BMK.html
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2019, 01:52:36 pm »
Between monitor and keyboard?
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2019, 01:58:59 pm »
Is Arduino a sect?  :-//

Although I found your post quite funny, I must admit we have to wonder sometimes whether it is indeed a sect.  :-DD
 

Offline nali

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2019, 02:09:39 pm »
BMK?

Sounds like a variant of PEBCAK - Problem Exists Between Chair And Keyboard
 

Online wilfred

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2019, 02:13:54 pm »
Has anyone seen an agressive Arduino user? Usually I notice the bare-metal zealots dribbling. My prediction is the anti-Arduino crowd will gather here. Which might have been the intention of the invitation.
 
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Offline rstofer

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2019, 02:15:53 pm »
I guess I have missed the purported bad attitudes of the Arduino users.  More likely, I suspect, is the negative attitude of the high priests who proclaim the Arduino a sacrilege.  This comes, of course, from the simplicity of using the Arduino and the fact that everything that can be done with an Arduino has been done and it's all out on the Internet.  And high priests just aren't in demand at the entry level.

If the Arduino is big enough and fast enough to solve the problem, I'll darn sure use it.

If Arduino users do have an attitude problem, who can blame them?  They are continually ridiculed for using a platform without having spent the time to understand the internals.  Heck, they probably don't even have the Datasheet much less having taken the time to read it!  They are told, over and over, how the Arduino will lead to world hunger and massive societal disruption and all because the users haven't bothered to learn how to write their own interrupt handlers in assembly language.  I mean, seriously, what kind of user doesn't understand interrupts at the machine code level?

So while the high priests bitch and moan about the Arduino users, the users themselves are having a great time.  There is a universal platform with canned examples of just about everything that could possibly be done; just copy and paste!  No priesthood required!

In my view, it's the high priests who have the attitude problem.

 
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Offline 2N3055

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2019, 02:39:10 pm »
I heard on the Internet that Arduino crowd is asking the same thing about you ...  ^-^
 
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Offline e100

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2019, 02:56:48 pm »
Based on what I see on the Arduino forum at https://forum.arduino.cc/index.php#c2
only a minority of Arduino users are doing it as a hobby.

As of today I think the breakdown is roughly as follows:
90% of the posts are from students who have been given a project that they need to get done ASAP so they can pass their course. They just want an answer on a plate, preferably source code they can copy and past into their project. Having to understand things is a low priority. For this audience spending 10 minutes doing a Google search is too much effort.

5% are entrepeneurs who see the Arduino as a way of replacing some expensive piece of industrial equipment with something at 1/10 the price. They don't want to be told that fast, cheap and accurate are conflicting requirements or that WiFi doesn't work well underground.

2% are hobbyests who peppered their code with the "delay()" function because that is in so many of the official example projects. Once they discover that this is the worst way of doing things they feel like they have been lied to. It takes years for the bitterness to subside (don't ask me how I know this).

1% are hobbyests wresting with the default awful blocking libraries that paralyse their code making it impossible to do multitasking, until some kind soul points them to the non-blocking versions and then they too feel like they've been lied to. Again bitterness is the outcome.

The remaining 2% are hobbyests who have got over the bitterness of the delay() and blocking function experience and are now actually trying to use the Arduino do something useful, but have just discovered something called a 'silicon bug'. You try explaining to someone that the hardware they paid for doesn't actually do what is says in the datasheet and the manufacturer has no intention of fixing it.... and there is no workaround.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 06:22:14 pm by e100 »
 
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Online james_s

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2019, 03:56:02 pm »
I haven't really noticed a lot of aggression. The thing that annoys me is the prevalence of all those awful Fritzing diagrams in lieu of proper schematics. I really wish Fritzing would just die already, it makes my head hurt trying to decipher a jumble of wires and color coded resistors on a picture of a breadboard when a schematic would be crystal clear. Fritzing is a crutch that enables people to bypass learning to read a schematic, saving them an hour early on while costing countless hours later for themselves and everyone else.
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2019, 04:21:37 pm »
If the Arduino is big enough and fast enough to solve the problem, I'll darn sure use it.

Exactly.  I happily use Visual Basic for some projects for the same reason.  Despite occasional derision from my colleagues, it is usually hard to beat a good combination of "simple", "works", and "quickly"!
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2019, 04:32:01 pm »
Exactly.  I happily use Visual Basic for some projects for the same reason.  Despite occasional derision from my colleagues, it is usually hard to beat a good combination of "simple", "works", and "quickly"!
Not to mention VBA is still fairly common. It's helpful to know your way around it.
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2019, 05:03:48 pm »
Exactly.  I happily use Visual Basic for some projects for the same reason.  Despite occasional derision from my colleagues, it is usually hard to beat a good combination of "simple", "works", and "quickly"!
Not to mention VBA is still fairly common. It's helpful to know your way around it.

Yes, and it is usually the only general purpose programming environment readily available on site in large corporations without having to first go through long and complicated approval processes with their IT, networking, and various other productivity prevention departments...
 

Online bd139

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2019, 05:17:49 pm »
I'm going to bite here because I have worked with a couple of programmers that jumped into Arduino.

Usual steps for arduino users are:

1. Got Arduino hype
2. Buy arduino kit off amazon or ebay
3. Flash LED. Marvellous. 
4. Try and build a fucking warp capable space ship because you know, you can flash an LED.
5. Buy all the sensor kits on ebay
6. Smoke thirty packs of cigarettes getting nowhere because flashing LED was a gigantic lie.
7. Go watch netflix.
8. Find another fad.
9. Sell the lot on ebay as an "arduino lot" along with golf clubs, tennis rackets and all the other incomplete fads.

Edit: here's one just searched for  :-DD https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/223626508024 (complete with bollocks excuse for "it wasnt what i though it was")
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 05:43:44 pm by bd139 »
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2019, 05:41:44 pm »
 ;D
 

Offline Fire Doger

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2019, 06:32:05 pm »
Arduino is awesome for everyone!
Much more people got into electronics, manufacturers made modules for everything, Chinese copy them and I can buy them for near the cost of parts (in their reel price)
I can buy a bluepill for 1.5$ inc shipping!!!! There was a time when cars were cheaper than a debugger... :palm:

"Arduino programmers" are not embedded engineers.
"Arduino" is a C++ HAL library, what's wrong with that? Most of the time it's the worst solution to a problem, some times it's the best (ex. Marlin which supports every PCB/MCU for 3D printers....)

Also I like when other people give me free code because I don't like to pay, they are doing great jobs on libraries, most of them are crap in performance and memory but they work and I don't have to copy paste registers from datasheet :phew: Reworking a drivers is much faster than making it from scratch and debug it :-//

Now they want to do pcbs! Result -> pcbs costs 2$.
They don't like to read datasheet! Result -> I can find a Job easier because they don't know how to make something cost efficient.

"But the internet if full of shit now..." Learn asm for 1 mcu family as a real embedded engineer and you will be able to detect crappy code for any mcu...

Any good engineer should know as many tools as possible in his field to be able to judge and choose the best for each task, especially the free ones...

Although it's funny when arduino makers ask how to make a homing missle with arduino  :-/O

My eyes hurt on their schematics, I am a bad person and I don't try to read it >:D But being a dickhead rather than helpful is worse....
In my case my 1st software was Fritzing! I am not proud of using it for ~2 weeks but it helped me to learn the basics (I was googled PCB as green electronic tablet :-DD), then moved to eagle and now to Altium. Every crap helped someone some time become better...
 
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Online bd139

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2019, 06:35:49 pm »
Best part about Arduino is

 
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Online KL27x

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2019, 07:31:10 pm »
High priests of assembly, lol. When someone starts preaching about assembly, today, there's a 90% chance he did some assembly 20 years ago and is now talking out of his ass. Beware the preacher.

The guys who really know their stuff (not me), tend to help when asked. And their answers are infuriatingly like they came out of a datasheet. If I could understand the manual, I wouldn't be asking! :) The reason for this is they understand the stuff so well, they give answers that are carefully crafted to be unequivocally correct. And this is how technical documents are written.

First several months on the Microchip forums, I got the impression some guys were just copypasta'ing crap to answer questions. Over time, I figure out, no. They just understand to a higher level. The guys that know their stuff aren't out there preaching; they're tired of dealing with dummies. It's the lower level disciples that go out and do the preaching.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 07:55:32 pm by KL27x »
 
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Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2019, 08:03:32 pm »
The guys that know their stuff aren't out there preaching; they're tired of dealing with dummies. It's the lower level disciples that go out and do the preaching.

Isn't that how that also works in sects? ;D
 
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Online TK

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2019, 08:34:21 pm »
I don't think they are more aggressive than EEVBLOG members, or the whole internet as a matter of fact
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2019, 08:40:07 pm »

The guys who really know their stuff (not me), tend to help when asked. And their answers are infuriatingly like they came out of a datasheet. If I could understand the manual, I wouldn't be asking! :) The reason for this is they understand the stuff so well, they give answers that are carefully crafted to be unequivocally correct. And this is how technical documents are written.


And the alternative is an answer that is sloppy, easy to understand and wrong under multiple conditions.  This stuff isn't easy to learn and to know it to any depth takes a lot of time and a whole lot of mistakes.  How many hours does it take to learn that you have to apply power to a certain peripheral in the PCON register?  Unless you read the datasheet, and read it very carefully, you can be stuck on this for days.

Who has time to digest a multi-thousand page User Manual just to blink an LED?  Think about the difference between blinking an LED on an Arduino and doing it from bare metal (no HAL) on an ARM.  There's a HUGE difference and it is nearly insurmountable without a good deal of experience.  If the only thing you have is the User Manual for the ARM, it's going to be weeks before you get it to run.  This is especially true if you need to understand crt0.S (from ARM7TDMI like the LPC2106 or LPC2148) and then the ever popular linker script.  Try creating that from scratch.  Heck, just try to create a realistic Makefile that includes a target for device programming.

Nope!  The Arduino, within its capability, wins hands down!
 

Offline aandrew

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2019, 08:51:33 pm »
Has anyone seen an agressive Arduino user? Usually I notice the bare-metal zealots dribbling. My prediction is the anti-Arduino crowd will gather here. Which might have been the intention of the invitation.

I scoffed at Arduino for quite a while when it first started picking up. While I don't consider myself a "bare-metal zealot" I do do this professionally and I think that's what was causing my disdain: it was all hacked together kludge upon kludge to do things that could have been done so much better and with less. Then I started to realize that Arduino really brought a lot of people to electronics and computer programming, and in good ways, too. They were learning embedded, not just programming or electronics. Kids were building things. Adults were building things. Old mechanical guys who were afraid of electronics/programming were building things. Arduino took a lot of the initial pain away and for a lot of applications you don't really need more than an Arduino and some kind of shield to get the I/O where you need it. This isn't a bad thing at all; it is in fact a great way to solve a lot of problems. Those who want to take things to the next level can now do so, where before they'd be stuck behind the start line, unsure or overwhelmed with how to begin.

I really do appreciate what Arduino has done for my industry.  I do still roll my eyes a bit at the "I used an Arduino to blink an LED" type projects when that's all the goal of the project was, but I tend to do it only when I'm alone. :-)
 

Offline aandrew

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2019, 08:58:23 pm »
4. Try and build a fucking warp capable space ship because you know, you can flash an LED.

So much this. Flashing the LED isn't the hard part, it's learning how to manage your own expectations and not get discouraged that turns someone into a budding engineer.
 

Offline langwadt

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2019, 09:04:22 pm »
Based on what I see on the Arduino forum at https://forum.arduino.cc/index.php#c2
only a minority of Arduino users are doing it as a hobby.

As of today I think the breakdown is roughly as follows:
90% of the posts are from students who have been given a project that they need to get done ASAP so they can pass their course. They just want an answer on a plate, preferably source code they can copy and past into their project. Having to understand things is a low priority. For this audience spending 10 minutes doing a Google search is too much effort.

I think you give them too much credit assuming they know how to use google or that answer on a plate isn't too complicated
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2019, 09:11:32 pm »
Best part about Arduino is



That’s right for pretty much the entire user base. And I don’t mean that in a derogatory way, I do exactly that when I want a quick and dirty simple automation one-off Arduino solution for my own use. I can’t imagine me using one in a commercial product though, although I know many have.
 

Online james_s

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2019, 09:13:14 pm »
I also scoffed at Arduino for a long time, but then it got to where there are SO many ready to use libraries that I had to admit it has value. I can get any number of random widgets from China and more often than not I can find a library, wire it up and have it doing something in minutes.

My main complaint about these libraries is that they are often poorly documented. I can try to decipher the example programs but they are often poorly commented and may only use a few of the capabilities of the library.
 

Online KL27x

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #34 on: August 21, 2019, 09:17:46 pm »
Rstopher, I know, right? Assembly (and more specifically, the device-specific trappings) are so complicated that spitting out near verbatim datasheet answers becomes natural, efficient, correct. I'm not criticizing. It's like at that level, you aren't even speaking in a language that normal human beings can recognize. Your saying exactly what you're thinking, the way you understand it.

Weeks? Yep. Took me months to blink a LED on a PIC. That's an obvious drawback. The only good thing about it is I know (or I knew) a process to do things on the lowest level if/when it mattered. For latency or power consumption or w/e. The problem is this knowledge is very device specific, and the devices change. Even the dev tools change. Heck, even the datasheets change. (Microchip stopped putting an index in their datasheets; and this was a big part of how I managed information). So it becomes almost the same challenge all over again to repeat the feat.

So to this day, some of the technically awesomest projects I have done? Super low power consumption, super low latency multitasking to get everything working on a single chip, automatic battery cutout, deep sleep, working like a peach? It's too much trouble to incorporate these features fully, all the time. It has to be very important and/or a very huge project (in production numbers) to bother. So for many projects I agree that Arduino can be awesome. I don't take a side on this. Nothing wrong with Arduino. But I'm sure it comes with its own problems, as many have noted.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 09:29:44 pm by KL27x »
 

Online NorthGuy

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #35 on: August 21, 2019, 09:23:42 pm »
... I do exactly that when I want a quick and dirty simple automation one-off Arduino solution for my own use. I can’t imagine me using one in a commercial product though, although I know many have.

I do this all the time too. Except I copy from my past projects. And I never use Arduino. Works better that way ;)
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 09:25:27 pm by NorthGuy »
 

Online bd139

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #36 on: August 21, 2019, 09:27:11 pm »
I also scoffed at Arduino for a long time, but then it got to where there are SO many ready to use libraries that I had to admit it has value. I can get any number of random widgets from China and more often than not I can find a library, wire it up and have it doing something in minutes.

My main complaint about these libraries is that they are often poorly documented. I can try to decipher the example programs but they are often poorly commented and may only use a few of the capabilities of the library.

Yes and no. Last two times I used Arduino libraries I got so pissed off with the utterly awful fucking bugs and bloated code output I rewrote my own in AVR-libc. I've written libraries for Si5351 and HD44780. Also it's a million times easier to throw together event and interrupt driven code without being punched in the balls over and over again. Debouncing when handling other interrupts is an example of kicking you in the danglies.

The hardware and toolchain underneath it is pretty good. I use avr-gcc toolchain and avrdude. Rest of it is like attempting to date a hungry crocodile.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 09:29:27 pm by bd139 »
 

Online KL27x

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #37 on: August 21, 2019, 09:45:15 pm »
One thing that made me go "hmmm" about arduino is the boards. Yes, you can remove some unused pins from the header, arrange them in a consistent order, and with a nice silkscreen. But seems like a DIP chip would be almost the same thing. And more versatile.

I once worked with a project on which a test gear was done by an Arduino-based tool. The PSU died on it, and my client came to me to get production back up and running. I rigged up a USB supply with integral li ion battery and DC boost to 5V, cuz why not?

Well, one day, I run into the guy that developed this gear. He had seen it, and he asks me about the nifty solution I came up with. I'm explaining what I did, and he says, "How does it run on 5V? It needs 7, doesn't it?" That's when I see, for a "software guy," Arduino board just handles things, and they don't have to think about it. But... where's the line between making things easier and adding layers of obfuscation?
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 10:10:11 pm by KL27x »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #38 on: August 21, 2019, 09:52:35 pm »
It seems OP hasn't bothered to specify what he means when he takes about agressive Arduino users. He hasn't bothered replying at all in fact.
 

Online NorthGuy

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2019, 10:06:43 pm »
Who has time to digest a multi-thousand page User Manual just to blink an LED?

I start every project from blinking LED. However, the blinking LED is never the end goal. The more you want to accomplish, the harder it gets. In most cases the cookie-cutter solutions don't work for me.

If I want to hang a huge painting above my bed, I don't care how to do it easily - say without drilling, or without any tools, or with fewer wacks of a hummer. What I care about is that the painting is straight, solid, and will never fall on my head while I'm sleeping. And I'm prepared to do whatever is necessary to accomplish my goal.

I have similar approach to programming. I have requirements which must accomplish certain goals. So, I work on that. If I need something from the datasheet, I have no problem finding it there. If I need to use assembler, I'll do it. If I need to do a research to find a better MCU, I'll do it. Whatever it takes to meet the requirements. Would I save time if I used Arduino? I don't see how.

« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 10:09:54 pm by NorthGuy »
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #40 on: August 21, 2019, 10:14:13 pm »
One thing that made me go "hmmm" about arduino is the boards. Yes, you can remove some unused pins from the header, arrange them in a consistent order, and with a nice silkscreen. But seems like a DIP chip would be almost the same thing. And more versatile.
The Arduino Nano comes in a 'stamp' format with headers more suited to installation on daughter cards:

https://www.amazon.com/ELEGOO-Arduino-ATmega328P-Without-Compatible/dp/B0713XK923

I especially like the mbed LPC1768 for this kind of thing.  All I have to do is design the daughter card with project specific components and plug in the MCU

https://os.mbed.com/platforms/mbed-LPC1768/

In fact, all I need to add is a MagJack and ethernet is up and running.  The mbed project furnishes the lwIP stack.
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #41 on: August 21, 2019, 10:15:40 pm »
It seems OP hasn't bothered to specify what he means when he takes about agressive Arduino users. He hasn't bothered replying at all in fact.

Nearly all of his posts are provocative.  He gets scolded from time to time.
 
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Online KL27x

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #42 on: August 21, 2019, 10:27:29 pm »
Rstopher, I don't get it, though. If you're gonna do that, why not do away with the Arduino board, entirely, and put the nekkid chip on your board? And add the few external components (the ones that you need).

If you are repeatedly designing stuff within Arduino, and you want to recycle that footprint, you could even make the entire thing a library component, perhaps? (I guess it depends on your PCB software). So you plop that into your schematic and and then drag and drop it onto your board.

Humm.. maybe Arduino boards are so cheap it saves on assembly time/cost to buy and install the entire boards?  :-// >:D
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 10:33:28 pm by KL27x »
 

Online KL27x

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #43 on: August 21, 2019, 10:54:53 pm »
Quote
I have similar approach to programming. I have requirements which must accomplish certain goals. So, I work on that. If I need something from the datasheet, I have no problem finding it there. If I need to use assembler, I'll do it. If I need to do a research to find a better MCU, I'll do it. Whatever it takes to meet the requirements. Would I save time if I used Arduino? I don't see how.

I think it could save time on your next project... as long as Arduino can meet the requirements. Learning Arduino, that knowledge is somewhat consistent going into the future. Knowing how to program a chip to the bare metal is useful when it's useful. But unless you want to use Z80 forever, that knowledge is not quite as portable. You slog through it to meet the requirements of a given project. On the next project, you slog through it all over again. As AVR continue to evolve, someone over at Arduino Co will incorporate newer, faster, cheaper micro into more or less stable platform, I think. So as the user, you will mostly find the switches to be in the same position, with the same names, and the same functions. With only a few new ones. 

My POV is obviously super biased towards my own narrow experience.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 10:59:10 pm by KL27x »
 

Offline bsfeechannel

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #44 on: August 21, 2019, 11:22:08 pm »
Best part about Arduino is



When you write

#include <stdio.h>

Aren't you doing the same thing?
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #45 on: August 21, 2019, 11:32:35 pm »
Rstopher, I don't get it, though. If you're gonna do that, why not do away with the Arduino board, entirely, and put the nekkid chip on your board? And add the few external components (the ones that you need).

If you are repeatedly designing stuff within Arduino, and you want to recycle that footprint, you could even make the entire thing a library component, perhaps? (I guess it depends on your PCB software). So you plop that into your schematic and and then drag and drop it onto your board.

Humm.. maybe Arduino boards are so cheap it saves on assembly time/cost to buy and install the entire boards?  :-// >:D

There are complications when dealing with high speed signals (LPC1768 not Arduino) and, in the case of the LPC1768, there are components on both sides of the board.  How do I reflow that?  I'm a hobbyist, not a manufacturer.

Shorter answer:  I don't want to design the MCU part of the project.  I'll leave it to others.  Another short answer:  I consider my time to be worth $100/hour and I make all buy versus build decisions on that basis.  Lots of other decisions too!  I'll design something if I have to but not if I can buy it.  Arduinos are particularly cheap.

Consider too that when a project is no longer meaningful, I can recover the MCU board and move it to another project.

Arduinoo Nano's are especially cheap at around $4.30 with free shipping.  How much design can I do for $5 - about 3 minutes at my billing rate.  There's a reason my billing rate is so high!  It keeps me from making dumb mistakes like misusing what little time I have left.  My "Best Used By Date" is approaching and there's no point in wasting my time trying to reinvent the wheel.  Heck, I can't even order the parts in 3 minutes!

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=arduino+nano
 

Online bd139

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #46 on: August 21, 2019, 11:37:59 pm »
Best part about Arduino is



That’s right for pretty much the entire user base. And I don’t mean that in a derogatory way, I do exactly that when I want a quick and dirty simple automation one-off Arduino solution for my own use. I can’t imagine me using one in a commercial product though, although I know many have.

Yep it’s why we write and share programs.

I’ve used one for automated testing of germanium transistors to palm off on eBay to guitar pedal builders. Literally saved me hours and hours of work. One of them, a cheap UniT Ut61E and python program that told the arduino to switch on a relay then give a go or no go.

But yes in a commercial project or something where you need better control over system interrupts or actually need to understand how broken the arduino libraries are then is run a mile.

Best part about Arduino is



When you write

#include <stdio.h>

Aren't you doing the same thing?

If you’re using glibc then yes. Bloated POS  :-DD
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #47 on: August 21, 2019, 11:51:21 pm »
Another strategy for dedicated ATmega328 (DIP package) projects is to program the device on the Arduino board and just plug the chip into the main project board.  As long as you don't need the USB->Serial Terminal support, this works well.
 

Online NorthGuy

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #48 on: August 21, 2019, 11:56:42 pm »
Learning Arduino, that knowledge is somewhat consistent going into the future.

Many years ago I though that my "knowledge" was going to go with me into the future. Since then, so many things changed on me, so I learned to embrace the change. Besides, I found out that if you figure out how to work with one MCU, you can easily transfer your skill to others. I'm pretty sure that if I get a new MCU which I've never seen before, I can figure it out rather quickly. Things are still changing very quickly - if you get fixated on something particular, you're destine to live in the past.
 
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Online KL27x

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #49 on: August 22, 2019, 12:07:21 am »
^The problem, though. Do I get wiser with age? Maybe. Slower and dumber? Definitely.
 

Online NorthGuy

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #50 on: August 22, 2019, 12:11:50 am »
Arduinoo Nano's are especially cheap at around $4.30 with free shipping.  How much design can I do for $5 - about 3 minutes at my billing rate.

For some projects $4.30 might be huge overkill as under-$1 PIC will work just as well (or better). For other projects you may need something for $10. There are thousands if different MCUs which are used for different purposes.

...  there's no point in wasting my time trying to reinvent the wheel.

But a tricycle wheel may not fit on Ferrari.

Another strategy for dedicated ATmega328 (DIP package) projects is to program the device on the Arduino board and just plug the chip into the main project board.  As long as you don't need the USB->Serial Terminal support, this works well.

You can program almost anything in-circuit. What's the point of dragging DIP chips back and forth?
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 12:25:25 am by NorthGuy »
 

Online james_s

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #51 on: August 22, 2019, 12:15:08 am »
That is one more perk of the arduino platform, there are the classic AVRs, SAM, ARM, ESP8266, ESP32, etc that can all be used fairly interchangeably. It's certainly not the most optimal way of working with any one of them, but for a casual novice it really is about the easiest way to get something up and running. A few months ago I built an environmental monitor for our cabin using an ESP8266 on the neighbor's wifi, the whole software development process took only an hour or two and I'm certainly not a professional developer. For me it was a very quick and easy way to get something up and running that so far has been working perfectly.
 

Online KL27x

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #52 on: August 22, 2019, 12:43:14 am »
^Yeah, nothing wrong with that. Even you do that with a raspberry pi, who cares? If it works, it works.

Is this "real embedded design?" Sure. If you need to optimize cost and performance, you might need to do some further tinkering. But I doubt you own that many cabins.

Quote
You can program almost anything in-circuit. What's the point of dragging DIP chips back and forth?
Yeah, I dunno this. But Rstopher been at the game for a long time, now, judging from his posts. From way back when IC sockets were more than a curiousity. I think I better learn Arduino, soon, because the older I get, the more appealing "cntrl + C/V" looks. Hopefully, by then I can just outsource or hire younger guns to do the optimizing. 

(Also, I think he means to burn the Arduino bootloader in a socket. Then upload the sketches through the serial port on the pcb. As long as the bootloader isn't going to change, that might be easier/cheaper. Bare chips are easier to handle than entire PCB, in general, and last I checked, company like Microchip, even, charges minimum ~20 cents each to burn your chips in bulk!)
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 12:55:37 am by KL27x »
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #53 on: August 22, 2019, 12:59:44 am »
Arduinoo Nano's are especially cheap at around $4.30 with free shipping.  How much design can I do for $5 - about 3 minutes at my billing rate.

For some projects $4.30 might be huge overkill as under-$1 PIC will work just as well (or better). For other projects you may need something for $10. There are thousands if different MCUs which are used for different purposes.
Yup!  But get that $1 PIC designed into the project for $3.30 or 1.9 minutes of labor!  It's a hobby, component costs are irrelevant.  Labor is the deciding factor.

Quote

Another strategy for dedicated ATmega328 (DIP package) projects is to program the device on the Arduino board and just plug the chip into the main project board.  As long as you don't need the USB->Serial Terminal support, this works well.

You can program almost anything in-circuit. What's the point of dragging DIP chips back and forth?
You certainly can and I have done it quite a bit with the ATmega128 and the early LPC21xx family.  JTAG is also a nice way to go.

For my purposes, strictly hobby, I'm not about to get into designing something that already exists.
 

Online KL27x

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #54 on: August 22, 2019, 01:03:36 am »
Heck, even a company like Boeing "can't afford" to keep employees that actually build and maintain what isn't really all that complicated. I wonder if their full time engineering staff uses Arduino, lol. Ok, India. <Hands over plane stuffed with Arduinos>. This is what we want. Just make it not suck. We already worked out all the potential issues well in advance, so we know there will be no unforeseen complications, and it should take about 3 months.

You'd think they would hire/buy the group that builds it and keep these guys on full time or at least retainer, for the life of the product, with this particular sorta $$$ and lives at stake.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 01:41:42 am by KL27x »
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #55 on: August 22, 2019, 01:09:43 am »
Hi

I`m old tech from 70th without any programming background
But interested in AVR too just for fun
It is so funny and EASY to solder and program AVR  now :-+

But every time I google for AVR projects I`m furious about agressive Arduino users  :rant:

Is Arduino a sect?  :-//

No, more like 'Cargo Cultists' waiting for more free 'libraries' to drop from the sky.

I've never found any posts by Arduino users to be aggressive, they are mainly very happy they can now make something that they simply could not do before Arduino, when designers had to read the 1000 page technical manuals and understand them before even attempting to fire up the Micro.

Arduino users often say "who has the time to read a 1000 page technical manual ?" and my answer is always, "any embedded design engineer" .

Are Arduino users competent in embedded ? absolutely not. They are clueless about the most basic fundamentals of electronics, embedded design and software, because they are artists or basic hobbyists who have the time to watch all 1000 episodes of "Days of our Lives" on television, but not to read a ARM technical manual.

If you are furious with Arduino users then you have a strange view of the Arduino world in my opinion. Perhaps you should stop blaming others and put in a effort to get a clue of your own because nothing is easier than Arduino for the lay person and nothing is more useless than Arduino to a engineer.

Or as claimed, are you just trolling ? If you are then you have wasted your time because Arduino users here seem pretty relaxed, and engineers here don't bother with it.




Offline rhb

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #56 on: August 22, 2019, 01:29:38 am »
I sort of sneered at Arduinos and the AVR chips in general for a long time.  But then I saw the light.

The Arduino scared the holy bejeezus out of the other chip vendors bringing us an embarrassment of riches in the form of cheap dev boards from every chip maker who previously wanted an arm and a leg for a $10 piece of hardware.  That has been hugely beneficial to all.

The other notable feature is that the ATMEGA chips are 5 V TTL superglue.  So if you want to interface with something like GPIB it's cheap.  Driver chips not required unless you *really have to* put 16 devices on a single bus.

Part of my disdain was due to the attitude issue noted in the start of this thread.  It's classic "experienced novice" attitude.  All of my serious experience is with high end workstations and larger and a major annoyance has been dealing with people who assume that all computers are the same.  They are not.  Even the same systems in the same company are often different.  At a major oil company where I worked on my first contract job I had a standing offer of $100 to anyone who showed me two Unix workstations that were configured the same.  I withdrew the offer as I was standing watching a couple of employees working for me clone a system I had built.  In response to a comment I made in a meeting 6 months earlier I found myself with two regular employees working full time under my direction.

The good news - bad news about software is that it is *very* hard to ensure that things are the same above a rather low level of complexity.

The developers and promoters of the Arduino have done the EE community a great service.  Be grateful even if some of the users are annoying.

Have Fun!
Reg
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #57 on: August 22, 2019, 01:47:15 am »
Learning Arduino, that knowledge is somewhat consistent going into the future.

Many years ago I though that my "knowledge" was going to go with me into the future. Since then, so many things changed on me, so I learned to embrace the change. Besides, I found out that if you figure out how to work with one MCU, you can easily transfer your skill to others. I'm pretty sure that if I get a new MCU which I've never seen before, I can figure it out rather quickly. Things are still changing very quickly - if you get fixated on something particular, you're destine to live in the past.

So true. Tech is changing so fast now that it's impossible to keep up with except in very niche areas.

I'm always amazed by some Arduino users extolling the virtues of the Mega328 but who don't seem aware that this MCU is practically prehistoric now as the AVR 8-bit microcontroller architecture was introduced in 1997.

Sure, it still does everything it did 22 years ago, but MCU tech has changed enormously in that time.

If you show them a STM32F777 with its 93 internal peripherals, 2093 registers and 17051 bitfields running up to 216 MHz, they are more likely to exclaim, "what would I need that for" (as tho ignorance is a virtue) and "I don't have the time to read the 1954 page manual!" without realizing that this product is already 2 years old and those that have read the latest Tech manual (dated March 2018) have a massive head start applying this chip in their designs.

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #58 on: August 22, 2019, 02:03:40 am »
The converse also seems to be true with people looking at hugely complicated ultra fast MCUs to do something an Arduino will do with ease. Newer doesn't always equate more suited to the job.
 

Online NorthGuy

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #59 on: August 22, 2019, 02:25:27 am »
It's a hobby, component costs are irrelevant.  Labor is the deciding factor.

If it's a hobby then labour is supposedly what you want.
 

Offline member_xyz

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #60 on: August 22, 2019, 02:45:07 am »
Talking about sects.

These people totally and blindly follow their gods. :-DD

https://www.thebackshed.com/forum/ViewForum.php?FID=16

https://forum.micropython.org/



 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #61 on: August 22, 2019, 03:07:07 am »
The converse also seems to be true with people looking at hugely complicated ultra fast MCUs to do something an Arduino will do with ease. Newer doesn't always equate more suited to the job.

If you have no expertise regarding "hugely complicated ultra fast MCUs", what leads you to believe that you can make this comparison ?

What you call "hugely complicated ultra fast MCUs", I call "immensely capable modern MCU's that are a designers dream come true".

Newer DOES almost always equate to "more suited to the job", to deny that is to assume that brains far smarter than yours or mine were wasting their time and  billions of dollars in embedded chip manufacture for no reason at all.

Given that ST's shares doubled in value in 2017, they must be doing something right ?










Online wilfred

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #62 on: August 22, 2019, 04:32:28 am »
Talking about sects.

These people totally and blindly follow their gods. :-DD

https://www.thebackshed.com/forum/ViewForum.php?FID=16

https://forum.micropython.org/

Yeah. Go on, let's hear how?

I clicked the links and it wasn't immediately evident to me.
 

Offline rhb

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #63 on: August 22, 2019, 04:35:42 am »

Newer DOES almost always equate to "more suited to the job", to deny that is to assume that brains far smarter than yours or mine were wasting their time and  billions of dollars in embedded chip manufacture for no reason at all.


Sort of depends upon what you are trying to do.  If all you want to do is flash LEDs on a jacket or automate a sculpture, what matters is how much of your time does the task consume.

Using a modern 3.3 V MCU and $5 in driver chips to do what a $5 MCU board will do is fairly silly unless you *really* need something the modern MCU does.

Hammers are *very* ancient tools.  But in several millenia, nothing has made them obsolete.  I've got literally dozens, all of which are designed for different situations.  Sometimes it's hard to decide which will be best.  Especially if you only get to hit it once and choosing the wrong hammer means everything was ruined and will require major work to fix.

Driving the GPIB bus changed my attitude rather dramatically.  I plan on keeping a stock of 328P and 2560 boards on hand, in the future.  They are the right hammers for a lot of nails.
 
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Online james_s

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #64 on: August 22, 2019, 05:25:05 am »
What you call "hugely complicated ultra fast MCUs", I call "immensely capable modern MCU's that are a designers dream come true".

Newer DOES almost always equate to "more suited to the job", to deny that is to assume that brains far smarter than yours or mine were wasting their time and  billions of dollars in embedded chip manufacture for no reason at all.

Given that ST's shares doubled in value in 2017, they must be doing something right ?

I've worked with microcontrollers of many types over the years, from quite powerful and modern to quite primitive and generally I aim to get the most out of the least. IMO it's silly to try using a high end STM32 for something where a low end 8 bit AVR is under-utilized. Likewise it's silly to spend TOO much effort getting a very low end part to do a job that is better suited to the higher end.

Of course ST is doing something right, there are millions of applications for powerful advanced microcontrollers, that doesn't mean that they're necessarily the best option for everything. If a 20 year old part does the job and is readily available then where is the advantage of using a newer more complex part? Your statement is frankly ridiculous, the fact that these smart people are not wasting their time developing powerful parts doesn't mean those parts are the best choice for every application.

A good engineer weighs the pros and cons, and chooses the most suitable part for the task at hand, taking into account many factors, not just blindly choosing the newest most advanced part because "newer = better".
 

Online james_s

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #65 on: August 22, 2019, 05:32:23 am »
It's a hobby, component costs are irrelevant.  Labor is the deciding factor.

If it's a hobby then labour is supposedly what you want.

I want enjoyment, not labor. If I just wanted labor I could take the really long road on almost any project, but that would be boring and tedious. Ultimately I want the most enjoyable route to a finished working project, what that means depends on what my particular interest is at the time. Sometimes I just have a specific need and want to hack something together that works, other times I want to experiment with some new part or technology or just see if I can do something. The goal is not just to create the maximum amount of work for myself.
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #66 on: August 22, 2019, 05:43:46 am »

Newer DOES almost always equate to "more suited to the job", to deny that is to assume that brains far smarter than yours or mine were wasting their time and  billions of dollars in embedded chip manufacture for no reason at all.


Sort of depends upon what you are trying to do.  If all you want to do is flash LEDs on a jacket or automate a sculpture, what matters is how much of your time does the task consume.

Using a modern 3.3 V MCU and $5 in driver chips to do what a $5 MCU board will do is fairly silly unless you *really* need something the modern MCU does.

Hammers are *very* ancient tools.  But in several millenia, nothing has made them obsolete.  I've got literally dozens, all of which are designed for different situations.  Sometimes it's hard to decide which will be best.  Especially if you only get to hit it once and choosing the wrong hammer means everything was ruined and will require major work to fix.

Driving the GPIB bus changed my attitude rather dramatically.  I plan on keeping a stock of 328P and 2560 boards on hand, in the future.  They are the right hammers for a lot of nails.

I can understand the usual Arduino Mantras by Lay people who don't know any better but I'm surprised to hear this argument from you.

Please explain why a $0.45 STM32L053 needs $5 in driver chips and a $5 (Arduino)  MCU board does not ? Try and be specific, I'm sure most on this forum will be able to follow you.

I don't believe your hammer example is appropriate here because there is a massive difference between a ancient hammer made from bronze compared to a modern hammer made from specially refined and heat treated steel.

However one part of your hammer example does apply to your first assertion ... "how much time does the task consume"

Who uses hammers every day ... a blacksmith!

"The Metal Museum has a two-year apprenticeship program that provides housing, insurance, a living stipend and studio facilities. The intern works in the blacksmith shop and assists with exhibit design and installation during regular business hours. The intern has unlimited access to the blacksmith shop and foundry. At the end of the two-year period, the intern has a body of his or her own work, as well as experience working on large scale projects designed and produced by the Museum. "

If it requires TWO YEARS to learn how to use a hammer to blacksmith, surely it will require that much (time or more) for any decent skill, i.e. embedded design.

Owning dozens of hammers doesn't make you a blacksmith.

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #67 on: August 22, 2019, 05:55:14 am »
... I do exactly that when I want a quick and dirty simple automation one-off Arduino solution for my own use. I can’t imagine me using one in a commercial product though, although I know many have.

I do this all the time too. Except I copy from my past projects. And I never use Arduino. Works better that way ;)

Most of the time, I do the same, for example I know the entire PiC ecosystem far, far more than I do Arduino. I also know it well enough that if I want to turn around, say, a USB macro keyboard in under an hour, that’s just not going to happen on a PIC, but is eminently feasible on an Arduino.

Part of this is that the libraries are already there, part of it is that there are examples already there, and part of it is because a PIC will be ten times more complex.
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #68 on: August 22, 2019, 06:06:48 am »
What you call "hugely complicated ultra fast MCUs", I call "immensely capable modern MCU's that are a designers dream come true".

Newer DOES almost always equate to "more suited to the job", to deny that is to assume that brains far smarter than yours or mine were wasting their time and  billions of dollars in embedded chip manufacture for no reason at all.

Given that ST's shares doubled in value in 2017, they must be doing something right ?

I've worked with microcontrollers of many types over the years, from quite powerful and modern to quite primitive and generally I aim to get the most out of the least. IMO it's silly to try using a high end STM32 for something where a low end 8 bit AVR is under-utilized. Likewise it's silly to spend TOO much effort getting a very low end part to do a job that is better suited to the higher end.

Of course ST is doing something right, there are millions of applications for powerful advanced microcontrollers, that doesn't mean that they're necessarily the best option for everything. If a 20 year old part does the job and is readily available then where is the advantage of using a newer more complex part? Your statement is frankly ridiculous, the fact that these smart people are not wasting their time developing powerful parts doesn't mean those parts are the best choice for every application.

A good engineer weighs the pros and cons, and chooses the most suitable part for the task at hand, taking into account many factors, not just blindly choosing the newest most advanced part because "newer = better".

How old are you James ?

I started building embedded gear in 1975 on a National PACE 16 bit CPU with high speed paper tape and assembler. The project was the worlds first  nucleonic iron ore flow gauge designed by a engineer who wrote his own Forth for that CPU and project.

Please don't think that I'm impressed by your vague background.

Frankly, you sound like a hobbyist who has very little real world embedded experience to me.

A engineer highly experienced with STM32xx will use the most appropriate late model STM32 MCU for any new project requiring it. He has a dazzling multitude of models and package sizes to choose from with low end STM MCUs available for cents in 100,000+ quantities.

He wouldn't risk his job to use some old OBSOLETE 8 bit AVR in a new design, except in your wildest dreams.




Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #69 on: August 22, 2019, 06:38:18 am »
If you have no expertise regarding "hugely complicated ultra fast MCUs", what leads you to believe that you can make this comparison ?

What you call "hugely complicated ultra fast MCUs", I call "immensely capable modern MCU's that are a designers dream come true".

Newer DOES almost always equate to "more suited to the job", to deny that is to assume that brains far smarter than yours or mine were wasting their time and  billions of dollars in embedded chip manufacture for no reason at all.

Given that ST's shares doubled in value in 2017, they must be doing something right ?
So Mr. 001, you say you have a more suitable part for our products? What made you come to this conclusion? It's newer you say? I'm interested. It's designed by people you feel are smarter than us? Convincing. It's the most complicated and least proven part we could find and our design team has no experience with it? You have half a dozen other reasons not related to the actual suitability of the MCU? Well 001, sign us up! Make sure we slap that puppy every design. Respin the boards if you have to!

You could stir the pot more subtly but it's certainly hilarious! :-DD
 

Offline garethw

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #70 on: August 22, 2019, 06:50:08 am »
And here we go again! [emoji1787]


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Offline JPortici

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #71 on: August 22, 2019, 07:03:47 am »
High priests of assembly, lol. When someone starts preaching about assembly, today, there's a 90% chance he did some assembly 20 years ago and is now talking out of his ass. Beware the preacher.

The guys who really know their stuff (not me), tend to help when asked. And their answers are infuriatingly like they came out of a datasheet. If I could understand the manual, I wouldn't be asking! :) The reason for this is they understand the stuff so well, they give answers that are carefully crafted to be unequivocally correct. And this is how technical documents are written.

First several months on the Microchip forums, I got the impression some guys were just copypasta'ing crap to answer questions. Over time, I figure out, no. They just understand to a higher level. The guys that know their stuff aren't out there preaching; they're tired of dealing with dummies. It's the lower level disciples that go out and do the preaching.

 :clap:
yes.
And everytime i tell guys to go read the datasheet or go look in the product page i expect them to either have an "ooooh" moment or at least read the freaking documentation and come back with at least an idea of what it is really that they are not understanding

some times you even get the prick who believe he is being treated like a child (instead of being treated as a student) and starts telling the compiler guys to fuck off because they know nothing. Those are the funniest moments
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #72 on: August 22, 2019, 07:13:19 am »
If you have no expertise regarding "hugely complicated ultra fast MCUs", what leads you to believe that you can make this comparison ?

What you call "hugely complicated ultra fast MCUs", I call "immensely capable modern MCU's that are a designers dream come true".

Newer DOES almost always equate to "more suited to the job", to deny that is to assume that brains far smarter than yours or mine were wasting their time and  billions of dollars in embedded chip manufacture for no reason at all.

Given that ST's shares doubled in value in 2017, they must be doing something right ?
So Mr. 001, you say you have a more suitable part for our products? What made you come to this conclusion? It's newer you say? I'm interested. It's designed by people you feel are smarter than us? Convincing. It's the most complicated and least proven part we could find and our design team has no experience with it? You have half a dozen other reasons not related to the actual suitability of the MCU? Well 001, sign us up! Make sure we slap that puppy every design. Respin the boards if you have to!

You could stir the pot more subtly but it's certainly hilarious! :-DD

No no no!

Your competitors want you to keep on using obsolete MCU's in your products, they love you just as you are and would hate you to change a single thing!

Offline hamster_nz

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #73 on: August 22, 2019, 07:28:44 am »
Wow! It isn't just Arduino users who are agressive.

It all looks like hysteresis, band gaps, local minima and quantum leaps to me.

People (and companies) need compelling reasons to jump to new platforms and tools. The more tightly bound you are to a platform, the bigger the kick required to break free.

I personally think that the Arduino+AVR crowd are missing out of they stick with the original H/W, and would be better served moving to Micropython on a 32-bit platform with an IDE like uPyCraft for the low barrier to entry embedded platform... Like the micro:bit perhaps.

... but that would require a very big kick to get them out of their rut.

« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 07:36:42 am by hamster_nz »
Gaze not into the abyss, lest you become recognized as an abyss domain expert, and they expect you keep gazing into the damn thing.
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #74 on: August 22, 2019, 08:25:59 am »
Wow! It isn't just Arduino users who are agressive.

It all looks like hysteresis, band gaps, local minima and quantum leaps to me.

People (and companies) need compelling reasons to jump to new platforms and tools. The more tightly bound you are to a platform, the bigger the kick required to break free.

I personally think that the Arduino+AVR crowd are missing out of they stick with the original H/W, and would be better served moving to Micropython on a 32-bit platform with an IDE like uPyCraft for the low barrier to entry embedded platform...

... but that would require a very big kick to get them out of their rut.

I'm not trying to convince anyone to change from Arduino, I say 'use what works for you'.

However ... anyone who quotes a Arduino mantra by way of trying to claim that AVR is in *any way* superior to ARM Cortex-M  is just begging for a rebuttal from someone like me who has the experience to know otherwise.

Let's take an example of a product dear to eevblogs heart, the 121GW multi meter. What is the MCU in that ?

Is it a AVR ? is it a PIC ?

It's only a multimeter, surely it doesn't need one of those 1000 plus page manual STM Micros ??

I'm sure a Mega328 is PLENTY, just find the Arduino 121GW 'library' and it's done ... 5 minutes with a $5 Arduino Nano board. Perfect! Just ask RMB.

OH HEAVENS!!! it's a ST ARM Cortex M3 processor !!

Now Dave was very tactful about why the designer removed the initial PIC MCU giving no reasons why that might have been so as to not upset anyone and I applaud his marketing skills.

Dave did however go on to rave about how the SD card facility made upgrading and other features very easy in this outstanding instrument which had it been the original PIC would have required a cable, a PickitX or some hardware and lots of warranty returns for bricked units and angry buyers advertising in every online forum "to stay away from this junk".

The designers knew what they were doing  :-+

If I didn't already have a decent multimeter, I'd be buying a 121GW tomorrow and as it is I recommend the 121GW to anyone who asks me "what multimeter should I buy".

It's a no brainer, ... thanks to STM32.

Offline L1L1

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #75 on: August 22, 2019, 08:29:47 am »
Hi

I`m old tech from 70th without any programming background
But interested in AVR too just for fun
It is so funny and EASY to solder and program AVR  now :-+

But every time I google for AVR projects I`m furious about agressive Arduino users  :rant:

Is Arduino a sect?  :-//

I've seen quite the opposite: arrogant and sometimes aggressive behavior from "old-school" engineers towards the Arduino or maker community. You can spot it here sometimes in these forums.

The typical scenario is:
  • Someone has built a simple circuit with an AVR chip and some Arduino code but has a question/problem, needs a bit of help.
  • Old-school" guy will respond with one of these answers:
    • Why are you using Arduino? It's for kids, it's bloated, it's badly designed, etc.
    • Technical mumbo-jumbo about the "poor" choice of the op-amp, adc, mosfet, or whatever, designed to show that the "old-school" guy is very smart/knowledgeable.
    • Harsh comments about the bad layout of the boards or the schematic
  • None of the responses help the user with his problem/question, which is often simple.

My take is that these "old-school" guys feel insecure about the fact that tons of new people are doing electronics today for fun, and it's never been so easy. They are no longer the gatekeepers of a complex world unavailable to the profane. They feel that it's unfair that the Arduino UNO sold boatloads while their own project, which is vastly superior in terms of complexity, design, layout, EMC and safety only sold a dozen (costing 20 times more).

Be kind. Be patient. Have fun. Share your knowledge and make it accessible to people who know much less than you. This is what Dave Jones does and this one of the reasons for his success IMO.
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #76 on: August 22, 2019, 08:30:32 am »
No no no!

Your competitors want you to keep on using obsolete MCU's in your products, they love you just as you are and would hate you to change a single thing!
Obsolete as in probably the few parts that will still be available in two decades due to them being ubiquitous and sold in huge numbers to a very distributed crowd?
 

Offline JPortici

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #77 on: August 22, 2019, 08:48:49 am »
 :popcorn:
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #78 on: August 22, 2019, 08:53:46 am »
I'm not trying to convince anyone to change from Arduino, I say 'use what works for you'.

However ... anyone who quotes a Arduino mantra by way of trying to claim that AVR is in *any way* superior to ARM Cortex-M  is just begging for a rebuttal from someone like me who has the experience to know otherwise.

Let's take an example of a product dear to eevblogs heart, the 121GW multi meter. What is the MCU in that ?

Is it a AVR ? is it a PIC ?

It's only a multimeter, surely it doesn't need one of those 1000 plus page manual STM Micros ??

I'm sure a Mega328 is PLENTY, just find the Arduino 121GW 'library' and it's done ... 5 minutes with a $5 Arduino Nano board. Perfect! Just ask RMB.

OH HEAVENS!!! it's a ST ARM Cortex M3 processor !!

Now Dave was very tactful about why the designer removed the initial PIC MCU giving no reasons why that might have been so as to not upset anyone and I applaud his marketing skills.

Dave did however go on to rave about how the SD card facility made upgrading and other features very easy in this outstanding instrument which had it been the original PIC would have required a cable, a PickitX or some hardware and lots of warranty returns for bricked units and angry buyers advertising in every online forum "to stay away from this junk".

The designers knew what they were doing  :-+

If I didn't already have a decent multimeter, I'd be buying a 121GW tomorrow and as it is I recommend the 121GW to anyone who asks me "what multimeter should I buy".

It's a no brainer, ... thanks to STM32.
Poor show. Trolls and shills on here tend to be a bit more clever than this. It won't really boost your STM stock either.
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #79 on: August 22, 2019, 08:55:00 am »
No no no!

Your competitors want you to keep on using obsolete MCU's in your products, they love you just as you are and would hate you to change a single thing!
Obsolete as in probably the few parts that will still be available in two decades due to them being ubiquitous and sold in huge numbers to a very distributed crowd?

An interesting question but sadly I can't predict the future, however I have a clear memory of the past and I can look there for trends.

20 years ago in 1999 I was selling small quantities of a specialist industrial sensor (my own design) which used a PIC chip. Utterly reliable, some of my original units are still in use today. I used C back then and I'm still 100% happy with PIC reliability.

The price of that PIC MCU, which is still available today is USD 5.50 from Alibaba, however my current MCU of choice the STM32F051 was $0.56 USD each in 2014.
If my old PIC could speak, it would worship the STM32F051 like it was a GOD.

This is in line with my observations of old and obsolete chips, the mfr keeps the line going for replacement parts but the cost keeps going up and up.

So I'm agreeing with you that obsolete parts will still be available in 20 years, but your's won't be the ONLY ones. Most other obsolete chips will probably still be available but expensive.

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #80 on: August 22, 2019, 08:58:32 am »
An interesting question but sadly I can't predict the future, however I have a clear memory of the past and I can look there for trends.

20 years ago in 1999 I was selling small quantities of a specialist industrial sensor (my own design) which used a PIC chip. Utterly reliable, some of my original units are still in use today. I used C back then and I'm still 100% happy with PIC reliability.

The price of that PIC MCU, which is still available today is USD 5.50 from Alibaba, however my current MCU of choice the STM32F051 was $0.56 USD each in 2014.
If my old PIC could speak, it would worship the STM32F051 like it was a GOD.

This is in line with my observations of old and obsolete chips, the mfr keeps the line going for replacement parts but the cost keeps going up and up.

So I'm agreeing with you that obsolete parts will still be available in 20 years, but your's won't be the ONLY ones. Most other obsolete chips will probably still be available but expensive.
What's your definition of obsolete? The manufacturer states the 328P is in production. They also recommend it for automotive design which typically means it will be supported for a long time to come. That's as good a guarantee as you can get in this field.
 

Online ogden

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #81 on: August 22, 2019, 09:03:59 am »
I'm not trying to convince anyone to change from Arduino, I say 'use what works for you'.

You just did. With flying colors.

Quote
However ... anyone who quotes a Arduino mantra by way of trying to claim that AVR is in *any way* superior to ARM Cortex-M  is just begging for a rebuttal from someone like me who has the experience to know otherwise.

Let's take an example of a product dear to eevblogs heart, the 121GW multi meter. What is the MCU in that ?

No. Let's take an example we already know, "flash LEDs on a jacket or automate a sculpture". Both are weekend projects you may never "manufacture" in bigger quantities that one. For such project you just take what's in your bin [edit] and do not plan to write project-specific Forth. For many it is Arduino, you and me would prefer BluePill, others may use BeagleBoard. Nothing wrong with either choice as long as you do not miss your deadline nor blow your budget.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 09:08:55 am by ogden »
 
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Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #82 on: August 22, 2019, 09:08:07 am »

Poor show. Trolls and shills on here tend to be a bit more clever than this. It won't really boost your STM stock either.

Cry me a river pal ...

I just checked my STM stock, and no one has 'boosted' it ...
480x STM32f051
20x STM32F103
10x STM32L053
10x STML162
1x STM32L073
2x STM32F407

oh ... were you fantasizing about some other kind of "stock" ?
 
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Offline CJay

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #83 on: August 22, 2019, 09:18:33 am »
Hi

I`m old tech from 70th without any programming background
But interested in AVR too just for fun
It is so funny and EASY to solder and program AVR  now :-+

But every time I google for AVR projects I`m furious about agressive Arduino users  :rant:

Is Arduino a sect?  :-//

Only in as much as any processor, OS, manufacturer fanboy is.

You'll find the same kind of idiot on Linux, Windows, Apple, Arduino, Pi, PIC, Intel, AMD forums etc. etc. except there's an added layer of stupid on Arduino because it's such a mass market thing.
M0UAW
 
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Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #84 on: August 22, 2019, 09:22:13 am »
I'm not trying to convince anyone to change from Arduino, I say 'use what works for you'.

You just did. With flying colors.

Quote
However ... anyone who quotes a Arduino mantra by way of trying to claim that AVR is in *any way* superior to ARM Cortex-M  is just begging for a rebuttal from someone like me who has the experience to know otherwise.

Let's take an example of a product dear to eevblogs heart, the 121GW multi meter. What is the MCU in that ?

No. Let's take an example we already know, "flash LEDs on a jacket or automate a sculpture". Both are weekend projects you may never "manufacture" in bigger quantities that one. For such project you just take what's in your bin [edit] and do not plan to write project-specific Forth. For many it is Arduino, you and me would prefer BluePill, others may use BeagleBoard. Nothing wrong with either choice as long as you do not miss your deadline nor blow your budget.

Absolutely, I could never argue with logic like yours.

I would use Forth and any STM32 MCU that was suitable and in stock as it's a theoretical weekend job with a deadline.

I always write project-specific Forth!

:  Jacket1  ." FORTH LOVE? IF HONK THEN " cr ;

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #85 on: August 22, 2019, 09:27:29 am »
Cry me a river pal ...

I just checked my STM stock, and no one has 'boosted' it ...
480x STM32f051
20x STM32F103
10x STM32L053
10x STML162
1x STM32L073
2x STM32F407

oh ... were you fantasizing about some other kind of "stock" ?
Well you're obviously very intent on emphasizing the benefits of the latest and greatest STM devices and also obviously intent on causing a stir.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 09:29:27 am by Mr. Scram »
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #86 on: August 22, 2019, 09:33:08 am »

So I'm agreeing with you that obsolete parts will still be available in 20 years, but yours won't be the ONLY ones. Most other obsolete chips will probably still be available but expensive.
What's your definition of obsolete? The manufacturer states the 328P is in production. They also recommend it for automotive design which typically means it will be supported for a long time to come. That's as good a guarantee as you can get in this field.

How about "Outmoded in design, style, or construction." ?

Atmel would recommend it for your Grandmothers Pacemaker if they thought it would sell extra units, are you really this gullible ?

Offline JPortici

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #87 on: August 22, 2019, 09:33:59 am »
No no no!

Your competitors want you to keep on using obsolete MCU's in your products, they love you just as you are and would hate you to change a single thing!
Obsolete as in probably the few parts that will still be available in two decades due to them being ubiquitous and sold in huge numbers to a very distributed crowd?

An interesting question but sadly I can't predict the future, however I have a clear memory of the past and I can look there for trends.

20 years ago in 1999 I was selling small quantities of a specialist industrial sensor (my own design) which used a PIC chip. Utterly reliable, some of my original units are still in use today. I used C back then and I'm still 100% happy with PIC reliability.

The price of that PIC MCU, which is still available today is USD 5.50 from Alibaba, however my current MCU of choice the STM32F051 was $0.56 USD each in 2014.
If my old PIC could speak, it would worship the STM32F051 like it was a GOD.

This is in line with my observations of old and obsolete chips, the mfr keeps the line going for replacement parts but the cost keeps going up and up.

So I'm agreeing with you that obsolete parts will still be available in 20 years, but your's won't be the ONLY ones. Most other obsolete chips will probably still be available but expensive.

FYI #1, it's unlikely that you will get a better price than from microchip itself. There is no obsolete PIC, you just need to order one reel if it's something that's not officially in stock.
FYI #2, we still have products going strong after 20 years. the only thing we replaced over time was the PIC, nothing else. The pic was replaced with a pin-to-pin compatible, suggested upgrade mostly because they want you to use new stuff by pumping up the price of the old stuff, and up until very recently it was just a matter of selecting a new chip, correct the configuration bits, recompile, program, test. (More recently with the new interrupt controller it required the rewrite of the ISR but no biggie)
FYI #3, given your apparently big experience you should know that some certification processes are so expensive and require so much time to test that you'd much rather use the old pre-approved part and firmware. (But of course you know it, i'm just pointing this out for the new guys who don't)

back to  :popcorn:
 

Offline legacy

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #88 on: August 22, 2019, 09:41:12 am »
Why are you using Arduino? It's for kids, it's bloated, it's badly designed, etc.

Well, I do not use Arduino, but if I did, it would be because Massimo Banzi was so funny when he said that "Arduino gives you so much restless power under your fingertips that you can even (potentially?) make your own interface for spaceships".

A few radio telescopes have recorded some activity from Proxima Centauri, it might be intelligent life there, organic or inorganic (IA? surviving the organic life extinction?), so I have always dreamed to reach that place on a homemade rocket.

(sorry, my humor)  ;D
 
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Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #89 on: August 22, 2019, 09:42:13 am »

oh ... were you fantasizing about some other kind of "stock" ?
Well you're obviously very intent on emphasizing the benefits of the latest and greatest STM devices and also obviously intent on causing a stir.

"Well you're obviously very intent on emphasizing the benefits of the latest and greatest STM devices"

Has this become a crime in the last 5 minutes ? Do you have the statutes and regulations handy to paste here for all to see ?

"and also obviously intent on causing a stir."

No, I'm not after your job, so relax.

Offline legacy

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #90 on: August 22, 2019, 09:54:53 am »
I personally think that the Arduino+AVR crowd are missing out of they stick with the original H/W, and would be better served moving to Micropython on a 32-bit platform with an IDE like uPyCraft for the low barrier to entry embedded platform

Yup, I remember that someone told Banzi something similar years ago when Arduino2 was announced and someone was thinking about putting ucPython in a pocket calculator (now it's a commercial product), and Massimo replied something like "no! because I do know how to run my business and how to teach people, and the Wiring/C++ is the only way".

-

ucPython, or eLUA, anyway.
 

Offline westfw

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #91 on: August 22, 2019, 09:59:19 am »
Yes, of course Arduino is a sect...  so what?


My STM stock is doing pretty good, thank.  Up about 141% since I bought it 4 years ago, not counting the “more than my bank pays me” dividends...
MCHP has done a bit better, but I got scared recently and sold off 75% of my holdings.  (Still ambiguous as to whether that was a good idea.)


I wish I could invest in Adafruit.  They’re closest to doing “the right stuff” for the hobbyist and similar users..., Imo.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 11:42:35 am by westfw »
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #92 on: August 22, 2019, 10:01:30 am »
No no no!

Your competitors want you to keep on using obsolete MCU's in your products, they love you just as you are and would hate you to change a single thing!
Obsolete as in probably the few parts that will still be available in two decades due to them being ubiquitous and sold in huge numbers to a very distributed crowd?

An interesting question but sadly I can't predict the future, however I have a clear memory of the past and I can look there for trends.

20 years ago in 1999 I was selling small quantities of a specialist industrial sensor (my own design) which used a PIC chip. Utterly reliable, some of my original units are still in use today. I used C back then and I'm still 100% happy with PIC reliability.

The price of that PIC MCU, which is still available today is USD 5.50 from Alibaba, however my current MCU of choice the STM32F051 was $0.56 USD each in 2014.
If my old PIC could speak, it would worship the STM32F051 like it was a GOD.

This is in line with my observations of old and obsolete chips, the mfr keeps the line going for replacement parts but the cost keeps going up and up.

So I'm agreeing with you that obsolete parts will still be available in 20 years, but your's won't be the ONLY ones. Most other obsolete chips will probably still be available but expensive.

FYI #1, it's unlikely that you will get a better price than from microchip itself. There is no obsolete PIC, you just need to order one reel if it's something that's not officially in stock.
FYI #2, we still have products going strong after 20 years. the only thing we replaced over time was the PIC, nothing else. The pic was replaced with a pin-to-pin compatible, suggested upgrade mostly because they want you to use new stuff by pumping up the price of the old stuff, and up until very recently it was just a matter of selecting a new chip, correct the configuration bits, recompile, program, test. (More recently with the new interrupt controller it required the rewrite of the ISR but no biggie)
FYI #3, given your apparently big experience you should know that some certification processes are so expensive and require so much time to test that you'd much rather use the old pre-approved part and firmware. (But of course you know it, i'm just pointing this out for the new guys who don't)

back to  :popcorn:

#1, we can't possibly know all the MCU pricing deals in my opinion.
#2, I can't argue there and 20 years is a long time. I have stated my faith in PIC reliability above.
#3, Was that sarcasm :)  I personally know the agony of producing products daily by the thousands, month after month, that badly needed design improvement to increase yield by reducing rework but which could not be altered because ... CE certification.

Watch those calories :)

Offline legacy

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OT, ucPython on 32bit-cpu, commercial products
« Reply #93 on: August 22, 2019, 10:02:06 am »






Firstly appeared on NumWorks, a Python calculator
Python snakes its way to the CASIO  Graphing fx-CG50 PRIZM
 
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Online bd139

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #94 on: August 22, 2019, 10:03:12 am »
Well this thread is a rollercoaster  :-DD
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #95 on: August 22, 2019, 10:21:26 am »
I personally think that the Arduino+AVR crowd are missing out of they stick with the original H/W, and would be better served moving to Micropython on a 32-bit platform with an IDE like uPyCraft for the low barrier to entry embedded platform

Yup, I remember that someone told Banzi something similar years ago when Arduino2 was announced and someone was thinking about putting ucPython in a pocket calculator (now it's a commercial product), and Massimo replied something like "no! because I do know how to run my business and how to teach people, and the Wiring/C++ is the only way".

-

ucPython, or eLUA, anyway.

I'm a Forth user but don't tell the Arduino users here please ;-)

Are you referring to the NumWorks Graphing Calculator ? Mecrisp-Stellaris Forth has a port for that. It doesn't implement the sleep modes and will flatten the battery after a day so use a power pack.

   Flashing of Mecrisp-Stellaris to the numworks calculator:
   dfu-util -i 0 -a 0 -s 0x08000000 -D mecrisp-stellaris-numworks-with-sources.bin
   No need to disassemble your calculator, terminal is on USART6: PA11 = D- = TX. PA12 = D+ = RX.
   Just cut an old USB cable and connect it to a USB-serial-brige with 115200 Baud 8N1.
 

I also reviewed both ucPython, and eLUA and they are both pretty slick projects, very nicely done I thought. They do require a LOT of Flash and RAM compared to Forth, and are about 300x slower. Forth itself seems about 3x slower than GCC compiled C in my tests.

Offline legacy

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #96 on: August 22, 2019, 10:34:44 am »
I also reviewed both ucPython, and eLUA and they are both pretty slick projects, very nicely done I thought. They do require a LOT of Flash and RAM compared to Forth

Yup, they are for "big-MPUs", but this can make sense nowadays. For example, ucPython runs decently on the CASIO above, and it's more than useful on the Numworks calculator.

The CASIO-BASIC is cool (and has improved a lot since the first CASIO FX-7500), but ucPython is better :D

There was an interesting project with Forth: the GameDuino1. It's an Arduino-Shield (5V, it fits on Arduino-2009 boards) with a Xilinx FPGA (Spartan3/200-LE-something) on it performing a sort of graphical VDU with a VGA interface, and it's able to accept Forth-like statements via SPI.

The FPGA implements a stack machine (written in Verilog) which is somehow "Forth-modified" but still "Forth-compliant".

Potentially it's very powerful, but ... people have never appreciated it so much, in fact, the second generation, the GameDuino2 is completely different.
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #97 on: August 22, 2019, 11:13:44 am »
I also reviewed both ucPython, and eLUA and they are both pretty slick projects, very nicely done I thought. They do require a LOT of Flash and RAM compared to Forth

Yup, they are for "big-MPUs", but this can make sense nowadays. For example, ucPython runs decently on the CASIO above, and it's more than useful on the Numworks calculator.

The CASIO-BASIC is cool (and has improved a lot since the first CASIO FX-7500), but ucPython is better :D

There was an interesting project with Forth: the GameDuino1. It's an Arduino-Shield (5V, it fits on Arduino-2009 boards) with a Xilinx FPGA (Spartan3/200-LE-something) on it performing a sort of graphical VDU with a VGA interface, and it's able to accept Forth-like statements via SPI.

The FPGA implements a stack machine (written in Verilog) which is somehow "Forth-modified" but still "Forth-compliant".

Potentially it's very powerful, but ... people have never appreciated it so much, in fact, the second generation, the GameDuino2 is completely different.

Yes, "big-MPUs" are everywhere now and very cheap, the embedded game is changing rapidly.

in 1975 when I had to build a 128 byte Fusible Link ROM burner I was amazed at this new mass storage.

In 1997 a PIC16C84 had 1KB Flash and 36 Bytes RAM and I thought I was in mass storage heaven!

In 2019 I can write a Forth Blinky on a Ti Tiva running Mecrisp-Across which will apart from emulating Forth on the 2KB Flash Tethered MSP430 Target via JTAG, compile a fully executable binary of 80 bytes and Flash it to the Target. So in 2019, even 2KB of Flash can seem like a lot.
Except in this case the Tethered Target appears to have 64KB Flash :)

https://mecrisp-across-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/index.html

My head is still spinning from your "It's an Arduino-Shield" ... line, some people make the most esoteric things with Forth and the rest of us wonder what and why.


Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #98 on: August 22, 2019, 11:37:10 am »
Well this thread is a rollercoaster  :-DD
More like a lazy trollercoaster.   ;D
 
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Offline Howardlong

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #99 on: August 22, 2019, 11:44:07 am »
in 1975 when I had to build a 128 byte Fusible Link ROM burner I was amazed at this new mass storage.

You're two years before me on this, but I do remember a 256 byte OTP TTL fuse ROM costing about GBP50 in 1977, or about GBP300/USD370 a pop in today's money. It was the most expensive part of our design. We didn't have emulators, they cost about the same as a house. We grit our teeth and hoped we'd got the firmware right from hand-coded machine code.
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #100 on: August 22, 2019, 11:44:28 am »
Well this thread is a rollercoaster  :-DD
More like a lazy trollercoaster.   ;D

Hahahah  :clap:

Offline 001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #101 on: August 22, 2019, 12:16:15 pm »
Why so many trolls here? Is Arduino a main framework for EE ?  :-//
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #102 on: August 22, 2019, 12:23:08 pm »
in 1975 when I had to build a 128 byte Fusible Link ROM burner I was amazed at this new mass storage.

You're two years before me on this, but I do remember a 256 byte OTP TTL fuse ROM costing about GBP50 in 1977, or about GBP300/USD370 a pop in today's money. It was the most expensive part of our design. We didn't have emulators, they cost about the same as a house. We grit our teeth and hoped we'd got the firmware right from hand-coded machine code.

Oh yeah, they were super expensive and IIRC we did blow a few up as timing was critical among the 3 different voltages that had to be applied in sequence.

I'm amazed you did that with Machine Code for fusible link ROMS ! I once designed, built and hand Machine Coded a dual 8085 industrial bottle filling machine but luckily I had 2716 Eproms by then. If I'd had to use fusible link ROMS I'd have blown my profits because of the zillions of mistakes I made while coding!
 Jump +1 going up vs jump -1 going down, or is it the other way around ? ;-)

R&D is expensive anyway, I can only imagine the cost of the National Semi PACE Development System and its Assembler. I do recall the CPU was $270 AUD, not bad for a 16 bitter that ran at up to 2Mhz.

I've been told, (and haven't verified it yet) that the Chief Design Engineer wrote a Forth for that PACE which would have reduced his development stress by magnitudes I think simply in the cost of non programmable ROMS.

The other engineers  told me at the time that it wasn't all that much earlier they had to solder diodes in matrices to make their own small ROMS before fusible link roms came along

Online bd139

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #103 on: August 22, 2019, 12:32:51 pm »
Dang and I though waiting 30 minutes for a UV box was painful  :-DD
 

Offline Jan Audio

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #104 on: August 22, 2019, 12:33:19 pm »
I have bought a STM32 board that is arduino compatible for 20 euro.
It made me also agressive : the pin layout wont fit a breadboard or experiment board, it is not in the exact 2,54mm offset.
Anyone buy it from me for 10 ?
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #105 on: August 22, 2019, 12:44:39 pm »
Dang and I though waiting 30 minutes for a UV box was painful  :-DD

It was, but at least you *usually* got a nice erased Eprom back :)

I once made up a 48 gang 2732 eprom programmer. All the Eproms were in parallel and it was in continuous daily use.

Occasionally you could tell that someone had put a fresh Eprom in upside down by the scream of the tech collecting the latest batch of programmed units as he flipped them from the Ziff socket into his hand!

Of course that meant that the remaining 47 good ones had to go into the UV eraser ...

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #106 on: August 22, 2019, 12:49:54 pm »
Why so many trolls here? Is Arduino a main framework for EE ?  :-//
Well, why are you here?
 
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Online NorthGuy

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #107 on: August 22, 2019, 01:24:06 pm »
I want enjoyment, not labor.

One man's enjoyment is other man's labour. It's your hobby. You're enjoy doing something for free while other people may be forced to do the same things for living. Such people may hate the very same thing you enjoy.
 
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Offline Howardlong

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #108 on: August 22, 2019, 01:45:31 pm »

Oh yeah, they were super expensive and IIRC we did blow a few up as timing was critical among the 3 different voltages that had to be applied in sequence.


The ROMS we used at that time were thankfully bipolar single voltage 5V jobs. The processor and its support chips, being PMOS, needed +5V and -12V, and supposedly needed sequencing, not that I remember particularly trying very hard to do so. I do remember the PMOS 1702(A), and particularly the early 27xx NMOS EPROMS, needing some challenging supplies.

Possibly one of the best learning experiences I ever had of that era was using a CRO to debug programs by probing the address and data buses, one signal at a time, with a pencil and paper. You had to be pretty inventive with your triggering, particularly if you didn't have a delayed timebase feature. And with no storage feature on the scope, you had to be pretty inventive at repetitively reproducing your signals.

It's not all that long ago, it wasn't unusual to do things in our heads that we all take for granted now, like serial decodes.

I feel that having to do things the hard way sometimes gives you a better grounding for understanding the higher level stuff, in that you're not just taking things for granted, you aren't afraid to question and consider possible aberrations under the hood.

The Arduino ecosystem is both admirable and successful in its abstractions, protecting and hiding from the programmer a lot of this lower level nastiness, and it's to be applauded for that.

All too often we all give up on projects because we don't have the bandwidth to be able to deal with all of the details, many of which you won't be aware of until you actually get going on a project. However at some point, it is almost inevitable that you'll need to dig into the abstractions when they don't work the way you expect, or the way you want them to.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #109 on: August 22, 2019, 02:38:11 pm »
 :popcorn:

- Just a quick break. I don't know about Arduino users being specifically agressive, but debates about the Arduino ecosystem seem to always be pretty heated. It's a bit like debates about using C in embedded development. Many people from either side seem to have a hard time keeping calm while discussing those topics, so they may pass as agressive. ;D -

There are both good reasons and bad reasons to use any kind of tool really, including using Arduino. So whatever you choose, try and make sure you do for mostly good reasons and not bad ones.

I personally find no use for Arduino for the following reasons:
- It would limit me to the supported MCUs only. I don't want to be limited.
- It's a bit the same as when people were using MFC to develop Windows applications. All they were interested in really were the libraries and the hand-holding, even when the tools were just meh. When or if they had to develop apps without MFC (either on Windows or other platforms), they suddenly realized they were completely lost. Those "frameworks" tend to lock you in.
- A corollary of that idea is whatever you personally think is worth investing your time in. Even if Arduino is relatively simple, you still need to invest significant time to be able to do anything useful with it (beyond blinking LEDs). Is that time investment worth it compared to investing it learning to use other tools and approaches? Your call.
- I've noticed that experienced engineers using Arduino often do that for quick prototyping. Again you have to ponder whether this is a wise investment of your time. It 100% depends on your requirements, skills, habits, available tools, whether this is a one-off thing or whether you want it to be reusable, etc. I personally have accumulated enough tools and reusable code over the years that quickly prototyping something on one of the numerous dev boards I have around is pretty quick, so I see no need for anything else. Of course your own situation may be completely different.
- Outside of purely prototyping stuff, I personally use practically NO third-party library whatsoever when developing on MCUs, and as few as possible for embedded development in general. So using some ecosystem the main interest of which are the available libraries makes no sense to me. *My* call, not a general truth.
 

Online james_s

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #110 on: August 22, 2019, 03:15:38 pm »
Why would it limit you to supported MCUs? Arduinos are not the only platform I use, they are just the one I tend to reach for when I want to do a quick prototype or work with some specific bit of hardware that has a library. I don't have to limit myself to only one platform.
 

Offline rhb

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #111 on: August 22, 2019, 03:24:59 pm »

Using a modern 3.3 V MCU and $5 in driver chips to do what a $5 MCU board will do is fairly silly unless you *really* need something the modern MCU does.


Please explain why a $0.45 STM32L053 needs $5 in driver chips and a $5 (Arduino)  MCU board does not ? Try and be specific, I'm sure most on this forum will be able to follow you.


Because GPIB is 5 V TTL logic and the STM32 will not *drive* 5 V logic unless you add GPIB bus drivers.  The ATMEGA line will. 

Check the AR448 thread where some fool is trying to port the code to an STMF103 and now thinks he has broken his 34401A GPIB port.  Possible I'm sure, but highly unlikely if he's been applying 3.6 V or less.

I'm building a calibration system to automate annual calibrations of my gear.  I'm using ATMEGA2560 R3s because they are cheap and do the job.  I'll use 3-4 as I have lots of relays to drive besides driving the GPIB bus.   At a minimum I'll have two ST6P Radiall 28 V SMA relays controlled by twelve 5 V relays for RF switching and 40 5 V relays for DC, low frequency AC and resistance switching.  I will *not* be using the Arduino IDE.  Just a plain Makefile.  And won't use the Arduino libraries either as I despise C++.

Most of the skilled trades use hammers specially made for the trade.  Blacksmiths generally only use a few hammers, but they do use a lot of tongs which they make as needed.
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #112 on: August 22, 2019, 04:15:09 pm »
It's a hobby, component costs are irrelevant.  Labor is the deciding factor.

If it's a hobby then labour is supposedly what you want.

I want the end result not the path.  As long as I get it done, and it works, I don't award points for minimum parts count.  Unless I run out of board space.  Then I might reconsider...

A couple of replies earlier on the writer was expounding on the increase in capability of the more modern chips as opposed to the older ATmega328.  Absolutely they are more capable.  They clearly have more peripherals and they are a LOT more complex and difficult to apply.

I like the STM32F chips and especially on the factory Nucleo or Discovery boards.  The fact that many of these boards are 'mbed compatible' means I don't have to install a dedicated toolchain.  I also like the ARM LPC21xx series because I have spent a lot of time with them but if I need a bit of horsepower I'll go for the mbed LPC1768 (60 MHz).  If I'm in a real hurry, I'll use my Blackfin board.  It's pretty fast (600 MHz) with uClinux.  I really like the old ATmega128 - it has a decent peripheral set and a large number of pins.  I like the AVR architecture and absolutely hate the mid-range PICs.  In fact, I REALLY like the AVR architecture.

I have played with the PSoC6 and its dual cores - it's a really interesting chip.  If I just had an application for BLE, I know which chip I would use.

I also play with FPGAs.  To the point that I have a working IBM1130 minicomputer that runs all of the factory software unchanged.  Yes, I can still write Fortran IV and do interesting math kinds of things.  And I can use the factory plotter library to come up with charts and graphs on my LaserJet compliments of an mbed LPC1768 converting the individual steps from the FPGA to HPGL sentences for the LaserJet.  SPI in, TCP/IP out...

So, yes, I get around.  But when I need to put on a quick 'show and tell' for my grandson, I reach for the Arduino.  It's a fast way to prototype and it is easy for him to replicate.  I like simple!

Want to study PID loops?  Try "Temperature Control Lab".  This little plug-on board uses an Arduino to interface between MATLAB or Python and a heater.  Read that again!  How powerful is it to be able to instrument an experiment with MATLAB?  Talk about interactive!  This is just the thing for that required "Control Systems" class.

http://apmonitor.com/pdc/index.php/Main/ArduinoTemperatureControl

Arduino is just one tool in the box.  It has pluses and minuses but no matter what you want to do, it has probably already been done with an Arduino and the project is on the Internet.  Even my reflow oven is controlled by an Arduino...

 

Online NorthGuy

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #113 on: August 22, 2019, 04:30:06 pm »
An interesting citation from a different thread which 100% applies to the Arduino discussion:

Every culture on earth has good and bad and has done some good, some bad and some terrible things. But everybody seems to think their culture is special and better.

Having grown and lived in different cultures I get very tired of the ignorance about other cultures and the simplistic attacks. People who have lived and spent time in other cultures have much more nuanced views.

If there is one aspect of any culture that makes it bad it is to believe itself superior to others. That is bad and dangerous.
 
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Offline rstofer

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #114 on: August 22, 2019, 04:51:19 pm »
in 1975 when I had to build a 128 byte Fusible Link ROM burner I was amazed at this new mass storage.

You're two years before me on this, but I do remember a 256 byte OTP TTL fuse ROM costing about GBP50 in 1977, or about GBP300/USD370 a pop in today's money. It was the most expensive part of our design. We didn't have emulators, they cost about the same as a house. We grit our teeth and hoped we'd got the firmware right from hand-coded machine code.

Oh yeah, they were super expensive and IIRC we did blow a few up as timing was critical among the 3 different voltages that had to be applied in sequence.


On an earlier attempt to recreate the IBM1130 ('74?) I used these very devices to hold the microcode.  I built a programmer of dubious quality.   The 2102 RAM hadn't hit the hobby market so I had a CPU with no memory.  I moved to the Altair 8800 and put the 1130 project aside for 30 years.  FPGAs are the answer!
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #115 on: August 22, 2019, 05:00:15 pm »

I've been told, (and haven't verified it yet) that the Chief Design Engineer wrote a Forth for that PACE which would have reduced his development stress by magnitudes I think simply in the cost of non programmable ROMS.

The other engineers  told me at the time that it wasn't all that much earlier they had to solder diodes in matrices to make their own small ROMS before fusible link roms came along

I spent some time writing BIOS code in the early years of hard drives.  Sometimes for S100 bus machines and sometimes for the Apple II.  A bit later for the IBM PC.  The fun project was using the Z80 adapter that Microsoft built for the Apple II.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z-80_SoftCard

One day I visited the manufacturer of the SCSI interface boards I was using.  ALL of their test programs were written in Forth simply because a new test could be implemented in a single statement.  All the lower level code was already known to work.  This pyramid approach to programming is quite powerful.  Type in a single statement and an entirely different test sequence is performed.  This wasn't a canned test, it was 'new' at the top level.
 

Offline langwadt

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #116 on: August 22, 2019, 07:44:26 pm »

Using a modern 3.3 V MCU and $5 in driver chips to do what a $5 MCU board will do is fairly silly unless you *really* need something the modern MCU does.


Please explain why a $0.45 STM32L053 needs $5 in driver chips and a $5 (Arduino)  MCU board does not ? Try and be specific, I'm sure most on this forum will be able to follow you.


Because GPIB is 5 V TTL logic and the STM32 will not *drive* 5 V logic unless you add GPIB bus drivers.  The ATMEGA line will. 


VIh min for TTL is only about 2V, 3.3V will the drive TTL just fine
 
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Online KL27x

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #117 on: August 22, 2019, 07:54:14 pm »
Techman-001, you are 100% correct, except for one thing. You talk about learning from your past.

Yes, if you are educated and proficient with STM devices and dev tools and supply chain, I'm sure there is almost no reason to use any other microcontroller in a volume product. Today. The cost of these devices can be significantly cheaper, even, than other devices that are way inferior in most ways (other than maybe some electrical specifications in some cases).

But if you learn from your past, you know this is a temporary situation. In X years from now, STM32 is obsolete, too! Perhaps not even due to technological advancement. It might be some other whim of industry or business or some other butterfly effect.

Assuming (some) people will still want a simple way to interact with hardware in ways that don't need the latest cutting edge speeds and memory and floating point math, the Arduino platform may avoid this fate. Either the AVR from 1970 will not become obsolete, because Arduino community will continue to use it in enough volume that Microchip/Atmel will not phase it out. Or the community will adapt and incorporate better more modern microcontrollers to the Arduino platform in a way that the average user will not have to learn much to use the new greatest and latest Arduino Pikachu. (One day, maybe Arduino Techman is created, even... with an STM32 on the board?)

Arduino means you don't have to keep learning in order to do the same things you always did... and not get bent over when that part becomes obsolete and starts to cost 4-5x as much. You can use that hammer for a whole bunch of nails. And you can learn to use the latest greatest fancy biscuit jointer if and when you have to. After you do so, you might like it so much you make everything with it.. but one day it is also badly obsolete and overpriced unobtanium... When that happen, you might still have a trusty hammer, lying around, which is at least good enough to drive nails. And in the future, the latest Arduino has more speed and capabilities and less bugs than it has today, even. The Arduino platform is sustained and evolved by its user base. It is not chained to a particular micro. I kinda doubt it is ever going to deviate from AVR family, but who knows.

If you are a high school or university, do you get to take choose your classes to learn STM32 or modern AVR or modern PIC? Not usually. You would need to find the teachers that continually learn and teach the latest cuttest edge devices and completely change and update curriculum. They can offer classes using Arduino, because it's simpler and because you can bet it will still be relevant in 10-20 years.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 08:39:47 pm by KL27x »
 

Online NorthGuy

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #118 on: August 22, 2019, 08:21:06 pm »
... Or the community will adapt and incorporate better more modern microcontrollers to the Arduino platform in a way that the average user will not have to learn much to use the new greatest and latest Arduino Pikachu ...

You speak as if learning is something bad which needs to be avoided at all costs.
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #119 on: August 22, 2019, 08:23:03 pm »

Oh yeah, they were super expensive and IIRC we did blow a few up as timing was critical among the 3 different voltages that had to be applied in sequence.


The ROMS we used at that time were thankfully bipolar single voltage 5V jobs. The processor and its support chips, being PMOS, needed +5V and -12V, and supposedly needed sequencing, not that I remember particularly trying very hard to do so. I do remember the PMOS 1702(A), and particularly the early 27xx NMOS EPROMS, needing some challenging supplies.

Possibly one of the best learning experiences I ever had of that era was using a CRO to debug programs by probing the address and data buses, one signal at a time, with a pencil and paper. You had to be pretty inventive with your triggering, particularly if you didn't have a delayed timebase feature. And with no storage feature on the scope, you had to be pretty inventive at repetitively reproducing your signals.

It's not all that long ago, it wasn't unusual to do things in our heads that we all take for granted now, like serial decodes.

I feel that having to do things the hard way sometimes gives you a better grounding for understanding the higher level stuff, in that you're not just taking things for granted, you aren't afraid to question and consider possible aberrations under the hood.

The Arduino ecosystem is both admirable and successful in its abstractions, protecting and hiding from the programmer a lot of this lower level nastiness, and it's to be applauded for that.

All too often we all give up on projects because we don't have the bandwidth to be able to deal with all of the details, many of which you won't be aware of until you actually get going on a project. However at some point, it is almost inevitable that you'll need to dig into the abstractions when they don't work the way you expect, or the way you want them to.

Your trips down memory lane are very pleasant and bring back some great memories for me.

I'm not sure I agree with "The Arduino ecosystem is both admirable and successful in its abstractions, protecting and hiding from the programmer a lot of this lower level nastiness, and it's to be applauded for that." because my solid grounding in embedded comes from those old days, from the old ways we had to do things and countless hours behind a scope catching fleeting waveforms and NOT being protected from anything by anyone.

For the 8085 bottle filling project I mentioned earlier I used a Intel SDK8085 board with a 7 seg LED display and hex keypad to write the program.

All testing was done out of RAM, but I didn't have a relocatable program to move code between RAM and Eprom, and vice versa so I wired up a large rotary switch to move all the address and data lines between them.

One position to run from from RAM, one to run from Eprom, one to program the Eprom from Ram.

Worked like a charm  :-+

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #120 on: August 22, 2019, 08:35:09 pm »
I want enjoyment, not labor.

One man's enjoyment is other man's labour. It's your hobby. You're enjoy doing something for free while other people may be forced to do the same things for living. Such people may hate the very same thing you enjoy.

Wise words indeed!

Back in the old days of wire wrap I would have to wire up prototypes from a engineers schematics. It was ok, but not my favorite job because on a board with a thousand or so wraps I could never get 100% accuracy, there was always 2 or three mistakes. To me, wirewrapping was definitely "work".

We had a lady by the name of Joyce in the assembly department and Joyce loved wire wrapping, she also made zero errors board after board so we also loved Joyce's skills.

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #121 on: August 22, 2019, 08:55:00 pm »
Quote
You speak as if learning is something bad which needs to be avoided at all costs.
If you knew how to use STM32, and you could buy them for 45 cents, wouldn't you like to use it in many of your projects? Even if the project uses 1% of the memory and peripherals and can do the job clocked down to 1/100th of the max oscillator frequency and sleeping 99% of the time, it still costs half as much as the 8 bit PIC, right? All you have to do is learn, so what's stopping you? (I know clock speed and processor word size is not the end-all be-all regarding response/latency, but just go with it)*.

You have your own reasons. Mine? By the time I learn it, STM32 might no longer be in production, and I and everyone I know, today, might be long dead. Hell might have frozen over. I'm not gonna lie and say it's because I have not had the need, yet. If I had the need, I'd be in trouble. I would be knocking on Techman's door to see if he was available for hire, and if he wouldn't mind being horribly underpaid.

*Assembly, for instance, is great when you need it, and it is actually fairly practical on an 8 bit PIC, IMO. And I mention this because I use assembly, and I get the impression you do, as well. By using assembly, you can actually do a lot of low latency multitasking and get a lot out of said device. But as the number of and length/complexity of opcodes of a device increases, actually harvesting the benefits of this device core through assembly programming becomes exponentially more complicated and cumbersome and time consuming and prone to bugs. When there are 16 different simulaneous operands for every opcode, it becomes very complicated.  These new opcodes were intended to be useful to a compiler, from the start.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 11:14:07 pm by KL27x »
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #122 on: August 23, 2019, 12:07:28 am »
Writing embedded firmware from scratch can be enjoyable, but once it comes to implementing complex stuff like USB or Ethernet, using a library makes things a lot easier.
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 
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Online NorthGuy

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #123 on: August 23, 2019, 12:32:00 am »
By the time I learn it, STM32 might no longer be in production, and I and everyone I know, today, might be long dead. Hell might have frozen over.

You don't learn peculiarities of different systems. You learn general principles. Then you apply them to a particular system. Of course, you often need to know some peculiarities, but you don't memorize them. If you need to figure something out, you just consult the datasheet. You may inadvertently memorize something (such as register names etc.) along the way, but you may forget these things rather quickly when you move between architectures. That's Ok. The important thing is that the general principles are always with you and you can apply them to any situation.

If you're lacking general principles, you may do some stupid things, such as reading the datasheet from the first page to the last as you would read "War and Piece" thinking that you're learning something. Such activity only clutters your mind with inconsequential, and makes it more difficult for you to come up with a viable solution.

Don't get upset if something becomes obsolete and unusable. Just move on.
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #124 on: August 23, 2019, 01:15:04 am »
:popcorn:

- Just a quick break. I don't know about Arduino users being specifically agressive, but debates about the Arduino ecosystem seem to always be pretty heated. It's a bit like debates about using C in embedded development. Many people from either side seem to have a hard time keeping calm while discussing those topics, so they may pass as agressive. ;D -

There are both good reasons and bad reasons to use any kind of tool really, including using Arduino. So whatever you choose, try and make sure you do for mostly good reasons and not bad ones.

I personally find no use for Arduino for the following reasons:
- It would limit me to the supported MCUs only. I don't want to be limited.
- It's a bit the same as when people were using MFC to develop Windows applications. All they were interested in really were the libraries and the hand-holding, even when the tools were just meh. When or if they had to develop apps without MFC (either on Windows or other platforms), they suddenly realized they were completely lost. Those "frameworks" tend to lock you in.
- A corollary of that idea is whatever you personally think is worth investing your time in. Even if Arduino is relatively simple, you still need to invest significant time to be able to do anything useful with it (beyond blinking LEDs). Is that time investment worth it compared to investing it learning to use other tools and approaches? Your call.
- I've noticed that experienced engineers using Arduino often do that for quick prototyping. Again you have to ponder whether this is a wise investment of your time. It 100% depends on your requirements, skills, habits, available tools, whether this is a one-off thing or whether you want it to be reusable, etc. I personally have accumulated enough tools and reusable code over the years that quickly prototyping something on one of the numerous dev boards I have around is pretty quick, so I see no need for anything else. Of course your own situation may be completely different.
- Outside of purely prototyping stuff, I personally use practically NO third-party library whatsoever when developing on MCUs, and as few as possible for embedded development in general. So using some ecosystem the main interest of which are the available libraries makes no sense to me. *My* call, not a general truth.

I usually disagree with a lot of your comments but after reading this well thought out post, I can't remember why  :-+

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #125 on: August 23, 2019, 01:17:52 am »
Quote
Don't get upset if something becomes obsolete and unusable. Just move on.
I notice you did not answer the question.
There's a cheaper and potentially faster solution out there, and you're not using it. And you're in good company.
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #126 on: August 23, 2019, 01:45:30 am »
Techman-001, you are 100% correct, except for one thing. You talk about learning from your past.

Yes, if you are educated and proficient with STM devices and dev tools and supply chain, I'm sure there is almost no reason to use any other microcontroller in a volume product. Today. The cost of these devices can be significantly cheaper, even, than other devices that are way inferior in most ways (other than maybe some electrical specifications in some cases).

But if you learn from your past, you know this is a temporary situation. In X years from now, STM32 is obsolete, too! Perhaps not even due to technological advancement. It might be some other whim of industry or business or some other butterfly effect.

Assuming (some) people will still want a simple way to interact with hardware in ways that don't need the latest cutting edge speeds and memory and floating point math, the Arduino platform may avoid this fate. Either the AVR from 1970 will not become obsolete, because Arduino community will continue to use it in enough volume that Microchip/Atmel will not phase it out. Or the community will adapt and incorporate better more modern microcontrollers to the Arduino platform in a way that the average user will not have to learn much to use the new greatest and latest Arduino Pikachu. (One day, maybe Arduino Techman is created, even... with an STM32 on the board?)

Arduino means you don't have to keep learning in order to do the same things you always did... and not get bent over when that part becomes obsolete and starts to cost 4-5x as much. You can use that hammer for a whole bunch of nails. And you can learn to use the latest greatest fancy biscuit jointer if and when you have to. After you do so, you might like it so much you make everything with it.. but one day it is also badly obsolete and overpriced unobtanium... When that happen, you might still have a trusty hammer, lying around, which is at least good enough to drive nails. And in the future, the latest Arduino has more speed and capabilities and less bugs than it has today, even. The Arduino platform is sustained and evolved by its user base. It is not chained to a particular micro. I kinda doubt it is ever going to deviate from AVR family, but who knows.

If you are a high school or university, do you get to take choose your classes to learn STM32 or modern AVR or modern PIC? Not usually. You would need to find the teachers that continually learn and teach the latest cuttest edge devices and completely change and update curriculum. They can offer classes using Arduino, because it's simpler and because you can bet it will still be relevant in 10-20 years.

All excellent points and very well put, but I'm confused about one thing, why would anyone think that Microchip/Avr is any different or has any advantages compared to any other MCU manufacturer such as STM in terms of long term variability?

I doubt that STM will be going away anytime soon because their semiconductor portfolio is MASSIVE.

STM have been supplying power electronics, regulators, triacs, FETS etc for the last 30 years, they are a BEHEMOTH of a company.

Sure, chips will change and eventually these companies will be bought, sold, have name changes and maybe even fade away altogether ... that's life.

I remember being in awe of the Motorola 6800 and it was everywhere, I loved the ISA, to me it was smooth as silk ... but where is the 6800 today compared to ARM or PIC?

Every chip has it's day but the designer who is able to change and adapt will thrive, and ones fixated on a particular product usually fade away.

For me, here and now today, it's STM32, MSP340 and PIC (I have 200 off 18x and 24x PIC types in stock) for my MCU use. Between them they do all I need, and they all run Forth.

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #127 on: August 23, 2019, 02:06:25 am »
Writing embedded firmware from scratch can be enjoyable, but once it comes to implementing complex stuff like USB or Ethernet, using a library makes things a lot easier.

Agreed, but sometimes there is no library or driver and you need to write one yourself.

Matthias Koch and Bernd Paysan wrote a Forth Ethernet library for the Ti Tiva Connected Launchpad and it's smooth as silk, they use the board LEDS as connectivity indicators etc.

The biggest hardship they had was working thru the many errors in the Ti datasheet.

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #128 on: August 23, 2019, 03:47:43 am »
Quote
why would anyone think that Microchip/Avr is any different or has any advantages compared to any other MCU manufacturer such as STM in terms of long term variability?
I agree. I don't know which one will be around longer. I assume they will all change. Today's STM32 will be tomorrow's Z80. Today's modern PIC will be the same.

In many cases, the only reason to not use the latest and greatest - when it actually can do the job at least as well if not better, and it actually is cheaper - is because of the learning curve. To a hobbyist, I suppose that just means more fun.

I am using modern 8 bit PICs, because they still do what I need. And it was easier to get here from where I started. I initially learned to use the basic and midrange, then went on to the first gen enhanced midrange, and now I am transitioning to the most modern enhanced midrange. The first jumps were for additional abilities and features, and the changes were minimal. The latest migration is 100% for availability and cost. I'm driving the same nails I ever was, but my hammer has become too expensive and unreliable to source. This latest migration involves learning a new IDE, which is a necessary evil. I wouldn't do it if I didn't need to. And if I knew how to use an even better and cheaper hammer, I would just go out and get that. One of the biggest reasons for me to stay with PIC is because the transition is easier. Code portability is another reason, due to ongoing project in production. And pin-for-pin compatibility is nice but not that big a deal. Really, the main reason is the whole learning thing.



« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 09:19:01 am by KL27x »
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #129 on: August 23, 2019, 08:14:57 am »
Quote
why would anyone think that Microchip/Avr is any different or has any advantages compared to any other MCU manufacturer such as STM in terms of long term variability?
I agree. I don't know which one will be around longer. I assume they will all change. Today's STM32 will be tomorrow's Z80. Today's modern PIC will be the same.

In many cases, the only reason to not use the latest and greatest - when it actually can do the job at least as well if not better, and it actually is cheaper - is because of the learning curve. To a hobbyist, I suppose that just means more fun.

"Today's STM32 will be tomorrow's Z80" ... That's a epic quote because the Z80 slammed into industry's R&D departments like Orman's cannon slammed into the walls of Constantinople in 1453.

The Z80 reps dropped off beautifully written, free databooks and brochures and suddenly the Z80 was everywhere with STATIC registers that allowed the CLOCK to be slowed down and even stopped without data loss !

It was "Shock and Awe" and I was dazed and amazed. I later designed and made thousands of a small Z80 powered device that was coded with assembly on a TRS-80.

While nothing will replace the smooth as silk, orthogonal  ISA of the 6800 for me, the legendary status of the Z80 is written in history, well at least my history.

I remember reading the Z80 databook in 1977 and thinking 'how can I possibly understand and use all these registers properly ?' and while the STM32F had a similar effect on me in 2014, good data books, ready product availability, constant coding and projects always reduce the new and unknown to the hundrum, at least for me.

I'm not afraid of the STM32 becoming unavailable, I'm afraid of becoming BORED with it  :=\

Finally, I'm not a hobbyist, I've worked as a electronics technician all my life, mostly in R&D assisting engineers and I've loved every single day. I've worked for engineers  with zest, passion and foresight who loved what they did and inspired me. We all showed up at work at 7am and left at 10pm every day because the projects were our lives, nothing else mattered.

Some people work to live, I've always lived to work (in electronics).

And finally, to anyone reading this far. If electronics seems like work to you, and you hate the journey looking only to the destination every day  .....

 ---------------------- YOU'RE IN THE WRONG PROFESSION, DO SOMETHING ELSE THAT EXCITES AND AMAZES YOU ! ----------------------

Online KL27x

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #130 on: August 23, 2019, 08:28:57 am »
Unfortunately, it doesn't matter what I do for a living. If I was a professional athlete, I would not enjoy playing the game. If I was a professional skydiver, jumping out of planes would be a chore.

I'd much rather be earning money off interest.

Now, I do like to make things. I'm just not on the cutting edge of technology. Lots of other people are using variety of microcontrollers that are not the best tool for the job. People use stuff other than STM32. They might say "I get a kick out of pushing a small chip to its limits." That just means they're too lazy to change. I'm just being more honest, and I admit it.

If you were using the most efficient and cheapest micro for every job, you would also have to learn to use 3 cent chinese microcontrollers. We all make tradeoffs with our time and effort.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 09:01:27 am by KL27x »
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #131 on: August 23, 2019, 08:35:21 am »

Using a modern 3.3 V MCU and $5 in driver chips to do what a $5 MCU board will do is fairly silly unless you *really* need something the modern MCU does.


Please explain why a $0.45 STM32L053 needs $5 in driver chips and a $5 (Arduino)  MCU board does not ? Try and be specific, I'm sure most on this forum will be able to follow you.


Because GPIB is 5 V TTL logic and the STM32 will not *drive* 5 V logic unless you add GPIB bus drivers.  The ATMEGA line will. 


Thank you for your example above regarding the STM32 which langwadt has already shown in this thread to be fallacious.

However one example you do illustrate clearly is that Arduino users by their very nature are not qualified to make such claims and should leave these things to engineers who actually know what they're saying.

Arduino, (in my opinion) because it draws Lay persons into its ranks like a moth to a flame, is responsible for generating the most ridiculous claims, passed on from one ignorant user to the next. This is perfectly understandable and although it may sound like I'm berating Arduino users, I'm not. Those that make these claims simply don't know any better.

And yours is a typical example.

Ignorant people read this stuff on the Internet and they think it's true so they pass it on.

AVR isn't special, it isn't blessed, angels didn't bring it to Earth in a silver chalice ... it's just another Microprocessor, another old microprocessor.

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #132 on: August 23, 2019, 08:54:15 am »
Unfortunately, it doesn't matter what I do for a living. If I was a professional athlete, I would not enjoy playing the game. If I was a professional skydiver, jumping out of planes would be a chore.

I'd much rather be earning money off interest.

Now, I do like to make things. I'm just not on the cutting edge of technology. Lots of other people are using variety of microcontrollers that are not the best tool for the job. People use stuff other than STM32.

If you were using the most efficient and cheapest micro for every job, you would also have to learn to use 3 cent chinese microcontrollers.

Um ... I gotta disagree with you here about every profession being a chore to everyone in it and I'm genuinely sorry for anyone who feels that way.

Without wonder and insight, acting is just a business. With it, it becomes creation.
- Bette Davis

Of course people use stuff other than the STM32, ... they also use STM8 ;-)

Seriously tho, I hope you didn't miss my posts where I mention I currently use and like STM32F and STM32L, MSP430, PIC18 and PIC24 chips ?

I did look at the 3 cent chinese microcontrollers, then I cleaned up the small spot of my vomit on the workshop floor and researched something else more interesting and useful.

Online KL27x

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #133 on: August 23, 2019, 09:02:51 am »
Quote
Um ... I gotta disagree with you here about every profession being a chore to everyone
Never did I suggest that.
Quote
I'm genuinely sorry for anyone who feels that way.
Thanks. I wish I could be a happier slave.

Quote
Arduino, (in my opinion) because it draws Lay persons into its ranks like a moth to a flame, is responsible for generating the most ridiculous claims, passed on from one ignorant user to the next. This is perfectly understandable and although it may sound like I'm berating Arduino users, I'm not. Those that make these claims simply don't know any better.

And yours is a typical example.
I dunno if it matters, but, FWIW, I have never used an Arduino in my life. But I can appreciate what it does for those who it's catered to.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 09:23:34 am by KL27x »
 

Offline Fire Doger

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #134 on: August 23, 2019, 09:27:22 am »
We all showed up at work at 7am and left at 10pm every day because the projects were our lives, nothing else mattered.

I'd rather suicide than live a life without something interesting besides electronics  :horse: |O

Live to work is so wrong from so many perspectives....  :palm:
 

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #135 on: August 23, 2019, 09:32:08 am »
Because GPIB is 5 V TTL logic and the STM32 will not *drive* 5 V logic unless you add GPIB bus drivers.  The ATMEGA line will. 
Thank you for your example above regarding the STM32 which langwadt has already shown in this thread to be fallacious.
You did not explain for those ignorant - how can STM32L053 drive 5V logic bus w/o level converter.
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #136 on: August 23, 2019, 09:37:38 am »
Quote
Um ... I gotta disagree with you here about every profession being a chore to everyone
Never did I suggest that.
Quote
I'm genuinely sorry for anyone who feels that way.
Thanks. I wish I could be a happier slave.

Quote
Arduino, (in my opinion) because it draws Lay persons into its ranks like a moth to a flame, is responsible for generating the most ridiculous claims, passed on from one ignorant user to the next. This is perfectly understandable and although it may sound like I'm berating Arduino users, I'm not. Those that make these claims simply don't know any better.

And yours is a typical example.
I dunno if it matters, but, FWIW, I have never used an Arduino in my life. But I can appreciate what it does for those who it's catered to.

Ooops, my BAD, so you didn't. Apologies. You were only describing your own attitude on the matter.

Various employers thought they could make a slave out of me at various times. I left on the spot, walked right out and into a better job. Somehow I survived to this decrepit old age :)

My Arduino quote was directed solely at RHB, not at you.

I have a Arduino kit, I bought 6 for my children. None of them do electronics, none of them will ever read this forum. Arduino is perfect for them.

None of them have ever used the Arduino kits I sent them.

I have never used mine in any project, but I remember being blown away at HOW EASY it was to blink a LED with Arduino.

I plugged the small Arduino PCB into my Linux box, installed the Linux Arduino package, selected the BLINKY sketch and clicked the upload.

The  Arduino LED started blinking and I had NO CLUE what had just happened, but it was very impressive. I put the box away in my collection of curios and went back to designing embedded electronics from the bare metal upwards.

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #137 on: August 23, 2019, 09:41:31 am »
Because GPIB is 5 V TTL logic and the STM32 will not *drive* 5 V logic unless you add GPIB bus drivers.  The ATMEGA line will. 
Thank you for your example above regarding the STM32 which langwadt has already shown in this thread to be fallacious.
You did not explain for those ignorant - how can STM32L053 drive 5V logic bus w/o level converter.

Were you born lazy or is your browser scroll button simply broken ?

Scroll down to where langwadt explains why.

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #138 on: August 23, 2019, 09:53:40 am »
We all showed up at work at 7am and left at 10pm every day because the projects were our lives, nothing else mattered.

I'd rather suicide than live a life without something interesting besides electronics  :horse: |O

Live to work is so wrong from so many perspectives....  :palm:

You think ....

It's people like you that DIDN'T get the USA to a manned Moon landing in 11 years and who DIDN'T make working, self landing, reusable first stage rocket boosters.

Yesterday belongs to you and your ilk, and if you think my enthusiasm is limited solely to electronics then you're as unimaginative as you are  mundane.

Online KL27x

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #139 on: August 23, 2019, 09:58:21 am »
Quote
Various employers thought they could make a slave out of me at various times. I left on the spot, walked right out and into a better job. Somehow I survived to this decrepit old age :)
Heh. I have a pretty good thing going. I have been my own boss in my own business for over a decade. I work how I want, when I want. I get to solve unique problems, regularly, and I take pride in my work. Most importantly, I use a large variety of skills and never have to do the same thing for an extended period. This is pretty much as good as I can imagine, short of winning the lottery.

But I'm a slave to a mortgage. I'm a slave to building a retirement. I'm a slave to my health insurance. I was born a slave. Most of us were. We don't wear physical chains, anymore, and we have a great illusion of freedom. But it is what it is. 95% of us are slaves. Money doesn't motivate me; but I need to make it.

Quote
I have a Arduino kit, I bought 6 for my children. None of them do electronics, none of them will ever read this forum. Arduino is perfect for them.
My brother has suggested I teach my nephew what I do. I'm reluctant for a couple reasons, but one is because I'm obsolete. I was obsolete when I started, and I didn't gain any ground in the meantime. Arduino is a much better idea for him, IMO.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 10:10:20 am by KL27x »
 

Online ogden

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #140 on: August 23, 2019, 10:11:42 am »
Because GPIB is 5 V TTL logic and the STM32 will not *drive* 5 V logic unless you add GPIB bus drivers.  The ATMEGA line will. 
Thank you for your example above regarding the STM32 which langwadt has already shown in this thread to be fallacious.
You did not explain for those ignorant - how can STM32L053 drive 5V logic bus w/o level converter.
Were you born lazy or is your browser scroll button simply broken ?
Please keep it professional.

Quote
Scroll down to where langwadt explains why.
So you agree to claim that (3.3V) STM32L053 can be directly connected to 5V GBIP bus? That is not even fallacy, that is outright wrong. Hint: GPIB is multi-master bidirectional bus.
 

Online ogden

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #141 on: August 23, 2019, 10:20:39 am »
Live to work is so wrong from so many perspectives....  :palm:

Some/few people may dedicate their whole life to their job and is OK as long as they are happy with it. Doing job you hate - that is so wrong.
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #142 on: August 23, 2019, 10:21:59 am »
Quote
Various employers thought they could make a slave out of me at various times. I left on the spot, walked right out and into a better job. Somehow I survived to this decrepit old age :)
Heh. I have a pretty good thing going. I have been my own boss in my own business for over a decade. I work how I want, when I want. I get to solve unique problems, regularly, and I take pride in my work. Most importantly, I use a large variety of skills and never have to do the same thing for an extended period. This is pretty much as good as I can imagine, short of winning the lottery.

But I'm a slave to a mortgage. I'm a slave to building a retirement. I'm a slave to my health insurance. I was born a slave. Most of us were. We don't wear physical chains, anymore, and we have a great illusion of freedom. But it is what it is. 95% of us are slaves.

Quote
I have a Arduino kit, I bought 6 for my children. None of them do electronics, none of them will ever read this forum. Arduino is perfect for them.
My brother has suggested I teach my nephew what I do. I'm reluctant for a couple reasons, but one is because I'm obsolete. I was obsolete when I started, and I didn't gain any ground in the meantime. Arduino is a much better idea for him, IMO.

I've also worked for myself the last 15 years, I found the perfect employer in the end, one who really understood me ;-)

If I had your outlook, I'd say "I'm a slave to oxygen, if I can't get enough I'll die" or "I'm a slave to water" or "I'm a slave to gravity" . I just don't bother with any of these thoughts.

No man is a island, we all depend on each other in a interlocking maze of webs. Your wisdom and life experience could be very helpful for your nephew, please pass it on before you are lost to the dust of history and to him. If he is intelligent he will relish and benefit from the opportunity. Your brother obviously feels the same way.

Personally I only have the occasional problem with Arduino users, not with people who have used Arduino. I used a Arduino once, it didn't stunt my growth or make the milk curdle.

P.S. If you ever have any STM32 questions at the basic hardware stage and thought I could help, I'd be pleased to do so gratis. Don't hesitate to PM me on this subject. Conditions: no HLL language related questions except Forth, and please understand I may not have a answer or solution.

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #143 on: August 23, 2019, 10:31:10 am »
Because GPIB is 5 V TTL logic and the STM32 will not *drive* 5 V logic unless you add GPIB bus drivers.  The ATMEGA line will. 
Thank you for your example above regarding the STM32 which langwadt has already shown in this thread to be fallacious.
You did not explain for those ignorant - how can STM32L053 drive 5V logic bus w/o level converter.
Were you born lazy or is your browser scroll button simply broken ?
Please keep it professional.

Quote
Scroll down to where langwadt explains why.
So you agree to claim that (3.3V) STM32L053 can be directly connected to 5V GBIP bus? That is not even fallacy, that is outright wrong. Hint: GPIB is multi-master bidirectional bus.

It's up to you to support your claim that the STM32L053 can't be directly connected to 5V GBIP bus.

If I want a hint, I'll phone the Psychic Friends Network not you.

Please take your 'professional' trolling elsewhere or learn to actually put some effort into your followups.

Offline newbrain

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #144 on: August 23, 2019, 10:52:20 am »
BMK?
Not a an English language acronym.
In fact, not an acronym at all.

It's the short version of bimbominkia, an Italian neologism formed adjoining the word for little child "bimbo", and one of the many (vulgar) words for male genitalia "minchia" (with a k instead of ch, a vice many youngsters affect in their electronic communications).

A "Dickchild" is a petulant ignoramus, incapable of understanding any concept that goes further from their immediate gratification, with high feelings of entitlement.
In general, their language skill skill are abominable, in whatever language they try to express themselves.

Hey, there's even an urban dictionary entry for it, even if it does not convey the full meaning.

Though usually referred to a male young person, I've seen examples of all ages, sex, and political orientation.
Nandemo wa shiranai wa yo, shitteru koto dake.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #145 on: August 23, 2019, 11:13:25 am »
It's up to you to support your claim that the STM32L053 can't be directly connected to 5V GBIP bus.

If I want a hint, I'll phone the Psychic Friends Network not you.

Please take your 'professional' trolling elsewhere or learn to actually put some effort into your followups.
You claim STM32 is a functional substitute. The onus is on you to provide evidence. Pointing at messages of other people requires including a link to said message as the onus is still on you. Without the provided evidence the claim is to be considered unproven.
 

Online ogden

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #146 on: August 23, 2019, 11:25:52 am »
It's up to you to support your claim that the STM32L053 can't be directly connected to 5V GBIP bus.

@langwadt missed to mention 5V-tolerant I/O as precondition. Perhaps Arduino users are ignorant, but seems like stm32 users are arrogant :D
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #147 on: August 23, 2019, 11:27:38 am »
It's up to you to support your claim that the STM32L053 can't be directly connected to 5V GBIP bus.

If I want a hint, I'll phone the Psychic Friends Network not you.

Please take your 'professional' trolling elsewhere or learn to actually put some effort into your followups.
You claim STM32 is a functional substitute. The onus is on you to provide evidence. Pointing at messages of other people requires including a link to said message as the onus is still on you. Without the provided evidence the claim is to be considered unproven.

You're yet another troll unable to follow a thread, or who has a broken browser down button.

 :=\

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #148 on: August 23, 2019, 11:31:11 am »
It's up to you to support your claim that the STM32L053 can't be directly connected to 5V GBIP bus.

@langwadt missed to mention 5V-tolerant I/O as precondition. Perhaps Arduino users are ignorant, but seems like stm32 users are arrogant :D

Personally I'll take arrogant over ignorant any day.

I'm still waiting for you to actually read this thread and comprehend it.

It's never going to happen is it ?

Online ogden

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #149 on: August 23, 2019, 11:33:54 am »
I'm still waiting for you to actually read this thread and comprehend it.
It's never going to happen is it ?

What are you talking about. Quote or pointer/link please.
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #150 on: August 23, 2019, 11:39:02 am »
I'm still waiting for you to actually read this thread and comprehend it.
It's never going to happen is it ?

What are you talking about. Quote or pointer/link please.

There you go, HTH.

https://www.webopedia.com/TERM/T/thread.html

Thread
----------
In online discussions, a series of messages that have been posted as replies to each other. A single forum or conference typically contains many threads covering different subjects. By reading each message in a thread, one after the other, you can see how the discussion has evolved.

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #151 on: August 23, 2019, 11:45:27 am »
There you go, HTH.

https://www.webopedia.com/TERM/T/thread.html

Thread
----------
In online discussions, a series of messages that have been posted as replies to each other. A single forum or conference typically contains many threads covering different subjects. By reading each message in a thread, one after the other, you can see how the discussion has evolved.
Thank you. It helps to simply state your source rather than to assume everyone has seen every single message so far. Including it is a minor effort as you already know where it is. Regardless of that are you claiming 3.3V and 5V logic is completely interchangeable without the need for logic level shifters ever?
 

Offline langwadt

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #152 on: August 23, 2019, 11:46:24 am »
It's up to you to support your claim that the STM32L053 can't be directly connected to 5V GBIP bus.

@langwadt missed to mention 5V-tolerant I/O as precondition. Perhaps Arduino users are ignorant, but seems like stm32 users are arrogant :D

first page of STM32L053  datasheet:  Up to 51 fast I/Os (45 I/Os 5V tolerant)
 

Online ogden

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #153 on: August 23, 2019, 11:53:29 am »
By reading each message in a thread, one after the other, you can see how the discussion has evolved.

Here we go, speaking of Trolls.  :-DD

In this thread people talk about so many things. It is hard to guess what exactly you have in mind now. GPIB, moon landing or slavery?

@langwadt missed to mention 5V-tolerant I/O as precondition. Perhaps Arduino users are ignorant, but seems like stm32 users are arrogant :D

first page of STM32L053  datasheet:  Up to 51 fast I/Os (45 I/Os 5V tolerant)

Bingo. Correct answer. Logic level compatibility alone is not enough for successful bidirectional signalling between 3.3V and 5V logic. You did mention *only* logic level.
 

Offline donotdespisethesnake

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #154 on: August 23, 2019, 12:04:54 pm »
It's up to you to support your claim that the STM32L053 can't be directly connected to 5V GBIP bus.

@langwadt missed to mention 5V-tolerant I/O as precondition. Perhaps Arduino users are ignorant, but seems like stm32 users are arrogant :D

Personally I'll take arrogant over ignorant any day.

I'm still waiting for you to actually read this thread and comprehend it.

It's never going to happen is it ?

Why so aggressive? Are you trying to confirm the OPs statement, for a different subset of users? Also, you are wrong.  :palm:

BTW, excellent trolling by the OP, well done Sir!  One short clickbait post leads to 7 pages of blather :clap:
Bob
"All you said is just a bunch of opinions."
 
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Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #155 on: August 23, 2019, 12:10:13 pm »
There you go, HTH.

https://www.webopedia.com/TERM/T/thread.html

Thread
----------
In online discussions, a series of messages that have been posted as replies to each other. A single forum or conference typically contains many threads covering different subjects. By reading each message in a thread, one after the other, you can see how the discussion has evolved.
Thank you. It helps to simply state your source rather than to assume everyone has seen every single message so far. Including it is a minor effort as you already know where it is. Regardless of that are you claiming 3.3V and 5V logic is completely interchangeable without the need for logic level shifters ever?

You'd like me to do your reading for you "because it's easier" and a "minor effort" ?

Hold on a second while I laugh myself into apoplexy ...

If it's such a 'minor effort' perhaps even you could manage reading the entire thread yourself  and you never know, it might prevent you from jumping to stupid conclusions and looking like a moron.

... or not.

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #156 on: August 23, 2019, 12:18:09 pm »
It's up to you to support your claim that the STM32L053 can't be directly connected to 5V GBIP bus.

@langwadt missed to mention 5V-tolerant I/O as precondition. Perhaps Arduino users are ignorant, but seems like stm32 users are arrogant :D

Personally I'll take arrogant over ignorant any day.

I'm still waiting for you to actually read this thread and comprehend it.

It's never going to happen is it ?

Why so aggressive? Are you trying to confirm the OPs statement, for a different subset of users? Also, you are wrong.  :palm:

BTW, excellent trolling by the OP, well done Sir!  One short clickbait post leads to 7 pages of blather :clap:

One can't please everybody. You call me 'aggressive', other team members in Emergency Services used to tell me I'm wasn't aggressive enough ...

I like to think of myself as 'firm but friendly'.

You'll have to pardon me if I ignore your generic claim that I'm "wrong", because you also can't be bothered doing any actual work to substantiate it.

Started by a troll ? perhaps.

Nevertheless I'm enjoying this topic and if you're from the "international authority of electron wastage and inefficiency" please speak to someone else I'm just a visitor here.

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #157 on: August 23, 2019, 12:49:08 pm »
You'd like me to do your reading for you "because it's easier" and a "minor effort" ?

Hold on a second while I laugh myself into apoplexy ...

If it's such a 'minor effort' perhaps even you could manage reading the entire thread yourself  and you never know, it might prevent you from jumping to stupid conclusions and looking like a moron.

... or not.
In online discussions or even real life your supposed to provide evidence for the claims you make. That's what asked of you. It's also generally expected not to behave like an agressive grating troll.
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #158 on: August 23, 2019, 01:10:46 pm »

In online discussions or even real life your supposed to provide evidence for the claims you make. That's what asked of you. It's also generally expected not to behave like an agressive grating troll.

Excellent tenets to live by !

Do you plan to start following them any time soon ?

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #159 on: August 23, 2019, 01:28:02 pm »
Excellent tenets to live by !

Do you plan to start following them any time soon ?
Not quite the clever response I was hoping for but I was probably expecting too much. Start following them and you may even find an employer willing to suffer you again!
 

Online NorthGuy

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #160 on: August 23, 2019, 01:31:02 pm »
I notice you did not answer the question.
There's a cheaper and potentially faster solution out there, and you're not using it. And you're in good company.

I will use anything which best fit my requirements.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #161 on: August 23, 2019, 01:31:55 pm »
Well OPs theory was just misproven also non Arduino users can be verbally aggressive  :-DD
 

Online NorthGuy

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #162 on: August 23, 2019, 02:19:28 pm »
If I had your outlook, I'd say "I'm a slave to oxygen, if I can't get enough I'll die" or "I'm a slave to water" or "I'm a slave to gravity" . I just don't bother with any of these thoughts.

You never know the value of water until the well is dry.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #163 on: August 23, 2019, 02:32:44 pm »
Well OPs theory was just misproven also non Arduino users can be verbally aggressive  :-DD

Note that he never said otherwise. He said Arduino users were agressive. That didn't imply that non-users were not. You guys are hurting my logic.  :popcorn:

 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #164 on: August 23, 2019, 02:33:59 pm »
Note that he never said otherwise. He said Arduino users were agressive. That didn't imply that non-users were not. You guys are hurting my logic.  :popcorn:
It's hard to prove a negative but so far we've not seen much proof of it being correct.
 

Online NorthGuy

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #165 on: August 23, 2019, 02:36:06 pm »
Perhaps Arduino users are ignorant, but seems like stm32 users are arrogant :D

They both are arrogant (not all users, but some of them are). Hence the original point of this thread.

When you choose something based on popularity, you must convince yourself that what you have chosen is great. Hence, you simply must be arrogant.

When you choose things based on some sort of analysis, you don't have to prove anything. You can stay humble.
 
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Online KL27x

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #166 on: August 23, 2019, 07:29:27 pm »
Quote
I will use anything which best fit my requirements.
This is something I have heard repeated many times. But it is not very practical. Most people will gravitate towards a tool that is already in the toolbox. If you are going to do the programming, yourself, you start with what you know. It is not like sorting through a list of specs and choosing the cheapest one that meets parameters, then buying it, designing the PCB, and then just figuring out how to program the micro as an afterthought. You might do that sort of search, but then you'll compare it to what you already know.

You also consider time/work to use it. Until you cross a certain threshhold of cost/inconvenience, you might continue using what you already have available, regarding knowledge. I use some PIC that cost more than STM32 (or TI device, or Renesas, or...) in volume, and where the cheaper device should work absolutely fine. I'm sure you do, too. You still avoid answering this question.

Some people are still hoarding logic chips, because that's what they know. Why don't they just use FPGA and/or microcontrollers? (Yeh, I know they can occasionally be quite handy when fixing or modifying stuff; so a raaco drawer filled with every variety can be useful, sure. Live and let live).

Microcontrollers are by their very nature a multitool. You don't need to use the exact best one for every use. You can drive a variety of different screws with any one of them.

I flatten an occasional board with a hand plane. It's not cuz I don't know jointers and power planers exist. It's not cuz I like the workout. It's because I don't do very much of this, and this is just one part of a much bigger process of "making stuff," which requires a lot of other tools and space. If I needed to do a lot of this task, I might buy a jointer and a power planer. AFTER acquiring these tools, even if I have just one board to flatten a year, I would do it the easy way. In the same way, Techman will probably use an STM32 for many things I would do with a PIC. If and when I ever learned how to use an STM32, I would do the same. You call it lazy, if you want. Everyone does it. You do too.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 08:44:54 pm by KL27x »
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #167 on: August 23, 2019, 07:51:13 pm »
On another thread, the OP needs to generate some 400 Hz 3 phase signals.  One way to do that is with a function generator chip like the AD9833.  There is a possibility, yet to be confirmed, that these need to have 120 degree phase separation.  And they need to be amplitude modulated but that's off topic here.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/trying-to-emulate-three-synchros-using-arduino/

The AD9833 allows for setting the phase offset although I have no idea what it is in relation to.  Nevertheless, it can be set.

What do you know, there is an Arduino Library for the device.  I ordered a couple of demo boards and I probably won't need to write more than 50 lines of code to get both devices running at 400 Hz with the appropriate phase shift.  Read that again!  I don't have to write a bunch of low level library code.  It's already done!

https://github.com/Billwilliams1952/AD9833-Library-Arduino/tree/master/examples

There's 363 lines of low level code I don't have to figure out.  Not that I can't but it's nice that I don't have to!

And there are a couple of examples...

Here are the demo boards, I bought the last two but there are others...

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B076LF3LFC/ref=ppx_od_dt_b_asin_title_s00

So why bother with somebody else's project?  Well, I do a bit of analog computing and it might be nice to have an adjustable sin()/cos() generator.  Maybe it would be nice to have adjustable phase (relative to what?) and I already have analog multipliers for scaling.  It has nothing to do with servos but the device might just be fun to play with.

And the vast majority of the code is already done!

« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 07:56:25 pm by rstofer »
 

Online NorthGuy

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #168 on: August 23, 2019, 08:15:42 pm »
On another thread, the OP needs to generate some 400 Hz 3 phase signals.  One way to do that is with a function generator chip like the AD9833.  There is a possibility, yet to be confirmed, that these need to have 120 degree phase separation.  And they need to be amplitude modulated but that's off topic here.

The AD9833 allows for setting the phase offset although I have no idea what it is in relation to.  Nevertheless, it can be set.

What do you know, there is an Arduino Library for the device.  I ordered a couple of demo boards and I probably won't need to write more than 50 lines of code to get both devices running at 400 Hz with the appropriate phase shift.  Read that again!  I don't have to write a bunch of low level library code.  It's already done!

There's 363 lines of low level code I don't have to figure out.  Not that I can't but it's nice that I don't have to!

I don't understand what the fuzz about. I've never used AD9833 before, but I looked at the datasheet and pent 5 minutes on it (less time than I spend typing this post).

It is simple SPI interface, with only 4 registers. You just set 28-bit frequency and 12-bit phase register. That's all. See, I already know how to set the phase, and you're yet to figure how to use your library. Reading datasheet has put me way ahead of where you are with the library.

You don't need anywhere close to 363 lines. It's probably easier to control the device directly than using the library - just few lines of code to pass two values through SPI.
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #169 on: August 23, 2019, 08:47:53 pm »
Of course I know how to do it, with or without the library.  For a one-off experiment I'll probably use the library.  I won't use an Arduino, in this case, because I have the Teensy 4.0 sitting on my table.  Somehow it all works out.  I just use a processor that runs at 600 MHz and is at least 20 times faster than the Due.  Same crappy IDE...

Now, if the library doesn't work, right out of the box, I'll replace the code with my own.  Yes, it will be a lot shorter.

But the point of the library is that the OP on the other thread doesn't even know how to code in C much less understand the machinations of SPI.  For a first approximation, he won't need to know much coding.

A better place to start in that it explains the API and the included functions (which I didn't have to write!):

https://github.com/Billwilliams1952/AD9833-Library-Arduino

« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 08:52:43 pm by rstofer »
 

Online NorthGuy

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #170 on: August 23, 2019, 08:56:13 pm »
... If you are going to do the programming, yourself, you start with what you know. It is not like sorting through a list of specs and choosing the cheapest one that meets parameters, then buying it, designing the PCB, and then just figuring out how to program the micro as an afterthought. You might do that sort of search, but then you'll compare it to what you already know.

What I know may not fit. So, yes I would do parametric search to find what I need. Say, last month I was looking for a good MCU with HS USB. I haven't found anything really good, but the best candidate I found was SAM (regardless of the fact that there was PIC32MZ which I am familiar with and I even have two boards with PIC32MZ and USB). The project got scrapped, but if it didn't, I would be working with SAM now. Could've been STM32 if it had better characteristics than SAM.

Of course, other things being equal, I would prefer a PIC because I know lots about them and I like lots of things they have. Not because they're cheap, but because they're cycle accurate and have good periphery (from my subjective viewpoint). And they fit the bill most of the time (there are 1000+ of different PICs to choose from, of which I have may be 300 or 400 different models to try immediately if I need to). They often have the best price as well. But this is now. This may no longer be the case 5, or 10, or 20 years from now.
 

Online KL27x

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #171 on: August 23, 2019, 09:06:50 pm »
Re Ogden:
langwadt, in response to declaration as fact that STM32 can't drive a GBIP bus, stated to the effect: 3.3V is more than enough to exceed TTL Vih of ~2.0V by a safe margin.

You challenge this with:
Quote
@langwadt missed to mention 5V-tolerant I/O as precondition.

Langwadt kindly comes back here and explains that most of the I/O are 5V-tolerant.

And so now you're back to :
Quote
Logic level compatibility alone is not enough for successful bidirectional signalling between 3.3V and 5V logic. You did mention *only* logic level.

Can you explain why you go round and round? What do you mean by "only" logic level? Do you think there's too much voltage drop and noise over 20 feet of cable? Or that it will significantly limit signal integrity and speeds? 3.3V is obviously not as much as 5V, but are you saying this just doesn't work when reason says it will? Langwadt covered the output side; he covered the input side. Both directions covered; you still not happy.

NorthGuy: "They [PIC] often have the best price as well." I'm not so sure this is true in the last 20 years, at least in the 8 bit arena. I agree there are a lot of variations, but this is not really a plus if the other micro comes with all of the peripherals and still costs less. 20 years ago, PIC was much better than almost any other micro manufacturer for availability in small to medium quantities to small buyer/individual. But increasingly they are not alone in this.


« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 09:41:03 pm by KL27x »
 

Online NorthGuy

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #172 on: August 23, 2019, 09:22:13 pm »
But the point of the library is that the OP on the other thread doesn't even know how to code in C much less understand the machinations of SPI.  For a first approximation, he won't need to know much coding.

Why not? Is it noble to die without knowing how to code?

And if he's going to learn, why not to start from basics? That's how they do it in college, and it works well, at least it used to.
 

Online NorthGuy

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #173 on: August 23, 2019, 09:28:47 pm »
NorthGuy: "They [PIC] often have the best price as well." I'm not so sure this is true in the last 20 years, at least in the 8 bit arena. I agree there are a lot of variations, but this is not really a plus if the other micro comes with all of the peripherals and still costs less. 20 years ago, PIC was much better than almost any other micro manufacturer for availability in small to medium quantities to small buyer/individual. But increasingly they are not alone in this.

We finally agree on something. Things are changing all the time. Impossible to see the future is. Anyone must be prepared to adjust. Restricting your choices is not the best thing to do.
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #174 on: August 23, 2019, 09:53:59 pm »
But the point of the library is that the OP on the other thread doesn't even know how to code in C much less understand the machinations of SPI.  For a first approximation, he won't need to know much coding.

Why not? Is it noble to die without knowing how to code?

And if he's going to learn, why not to start from basics? That's how they do it in college, and it works well, at least it used to.

I don't know how the OP in the other thread will approach it.  What I do know is that it will be a shorter hill to climb if the hard stuff is already done.

I suspect he is more interested in getting the indicator to work than he is in a post graduate degree in computer engineering with side helpings of power electronics (100VDC sine wave output) and analog electronics (analog multipliers to modulate the phase amplitude).

For my simple experiment, all I want to do is get two signals generated and then prove that I can shift the phase of one with respect to the other.  Whether I ever build up a board to interface with my analog computers is really a separate subject.  The knowledge will be there when the application comes around.

But first steps first:  Get one board running and sending an output.  Then figure out how to do three boards (with or without the library) and then, finally, get the phase shifting working.  Rotary encoder to kick the phase a little?  Well, there's a library for that...
 

Online ogden

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #175 on: August 23, 2019, 10:02:10 pm »
Langwadt covered the output side; he covered the input side. Both directions covered
His initial explanation did not cover input. I was first to mention 5V-tolerant I/O's. For those (Arduino users/preachers) who do not know that most IO's of that stm32 MCU are 5V-tolerant, telling that 3.3V->5V (output direction) logic level compatibility is all what's needed to connect 3.3V IC to 5V bidirectional bus is outright wrong. Is this clear now? Can we end this? Now? :=\
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 10:05:21 pm by ogden »
 

Online KL27x

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #176 on: August 23, 2019, 10:10:59 pm »
Oh ok. Your previous post confused me.

A simple "ok, thanks" to Langwadt's post would have been more clear to me. Personally, I just assumed the micro was 5V tolerant and that he and Techman knew that. But yeah, that could be a problem.

Anyhow Langwadt was not incorrect/incomplete in his first post. The quote he refuted/corrected was the claim you could not DRIVE a GPIB bus from STM32.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 10:22:39 pm by KL27x »
 

Online NorthGuy

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #177 on: August 23, 2019, 10:51:24 pm »
For my simple experiment, all I want to do is get two signals generated and then prove that I can shift the phase of one with respect to the other.

To synchronize several chips you need to take them out of reset synchronously which requires to send an SPI command to all the chips being reset at the same time (wouldn't it be better to select a DDS with a reset pin?). So, they must be on the same SPI bus with different chip select pins. To figure that out you would need to read the datasheet. The library wouldn't help you with that, would it? Thus, you would have to read the datasheet anyway. After you have read it, you already know how to deal with the device (which is very simple BTW). So, you're ready to go. Few lines of code and you're done. Instead, you suggest:

- figure out how to use the library
- bring 363 lines of mostly useless code into your project (risking bugs and/or restrictions)

Doesn't seem like something helpful. Rather, a lot of extra work which could have been avoided and unwarranted bloat.

 
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Offline rstofer

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #178 on: August 23, 2019, 11:48:38 pm »
To synchronize digitally seems problematic for the chip.  However, zero crossings could be measured and a digital solution would apply the necessary corrections.  This is a lot of work

One solution is to generate just one 400 Hz signal and use analog phase shifting to get the 3 phases (if, and when, it is determined that there even needs to be phase shifting).  There would need to be some output op amps (adjustable but fixed gain) to restore the voltage level before the signal goes into the analog multiplier to modulate the voltage followed by some kind of driver circuit to drive the transformers required to step the voltage up to around 100V.  The analog end is pretty straightforward.  Three DACs forming one input of each multiplier.  The flight simulator provides the x,y and z angles, the Arduino eats the data and sets up the 3 amplitude DACs, the AD9833 is set just once without regard to phase angle, analog takes over.

In some cases, analog is a better way to go.

The AD9833 library works as near as I can tell without having the actual boards.  They will be here Sunday.


 

Online ogden

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #179 on: August 24, 2019, 12:25:42 am »
To synchronize digitally seems problematic for the chip.

AD9833 is simplest DDS you can get (from AD), with all the consequences. AD9832 is what you would want to use in multi-channel operation, those have phase register selection pins.
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #180 on: August 24, 2019, 12:31:56 am »
If I had your outlook, I'd say "I'm a slave to oxygen, if I can't get enough I'll die" or "I'm a slave to water" or "I'm a slave to gravity" . I just don't bother with any of these thoughts.

You never know the value of water until the well is dry.

I'm an Australian and in many places in our country one is a few days away from death if the water runs out, but we don't let it worry us, we take water with us, and if we screw up we die.

Such is life.

Online NorthGuy

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #181 on: August 24, 2019, 12:37:29 am »
To synchronize digitally seems problematic for the chip.  However, zero crossings could be measured and a digital solution would apply the necessary corrections.  This is a lot of work.

What's wrong with releasing all the chips from reset by the same SPI command sent simultaneously to all the chips?
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #182 on: August 24, 2019, 12:41:08 am »
Excellent tenets to live by !

Do you plan to start following them any time soon ?
Not quite the clever response I was hoping for but I was probably expecting too much. Start following them and you may even find an employer willing to suffer you again!

I try my best, but some people are never satisfied.

At age 65 I hardly need a new employer, but if the thought helps you to feel good about yourself, fantasize away.

Offline rstofer

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #183 on: August 24, 2019, 12:44:54 am »
To synchronize digitally seems problematic for the chip.  However, zero crossings could be measured and a digital solution would apply the necessary corrections.  This is a lot of work.

What's wrong with releasing all the chips from reset by the same SPI command sent simultaneously to all the chips?

Absolutely nothing wrong with that approach, once it is known to work.  It should work (plus or minus a clock or two).  That seems to be suggested in the datasheet and mentioned in the library comments.  I was going to try it with just two boards mostly because that is all they had.  There were others I could have chosen.

If the reset approach works, the analog end of this project gets a lot simpler.
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #184 on: August 24, 2019, 12:56:17 am »
To synchronize digitally seems problematic for the chip.

AD9833 is simplest DDS you can get (from AD), with all the consequences. AD9832 is what you would want to use in multi-channel operation, those have phase register selection pins./
Thanks for that!  I'll take a look at the datasheet.

I don't see a low dollar demo board, the kit from AD comes to over $150 (2 boards).  I'm not that curious...

If this were a real project, I would just build a board but, again, if I can't do it in 5 wires and a single statement change in an Arduino program (to change from 1000 Hz to 400 Hz), I'm not going to mess with it.

 

Online NorthGuy

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #185 on: August 24, 2019, 01:05:19 am »
It should work (plus or minus a clock or two).

Data sheet says it goes out of reset in 7 or 8 MCLK clocks after the SPI command, so should be within one clock. It all depends on the relationship between MCLK and SPI clock. If you manage to synchronize MCLK and SPI clocks, you should be able to be clock accurate. 25 MHz for MCLK means 40 ns period, so small delays should be negligible.

The best way to synchronize the clocks is to simply clock the MCU with the same MCLK clock. Now you only need to make sure that the MCU you use can be clocked with an external 25 MHz clock. And then you can get everything synchronized to the same clock edge of MCLK.

 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #186 on: August 24, 2019, 01:14:31 am »
Quote
I will use anything which best fit my requirements.
This is something I have heard repeated many times. But it is not very practical. Most people will gravitate towards a tool that is already in the toolbox. If you are going to do the programming, yourself, you start with what you know. It is not like sorting through a list of specs and choosing the cheapest one that meets parameters, then buying it, designing the PCB, and then just figuring out how to program the micro as an afterthought. You might do that sort of search, but then you'll compare it to what you already know.

You also consider time/work to use it. Until you cross a certain threshhold of cost/inconvenience, you might continue using what you already have available, regarding knowledge. I use some PIC that cost more than STM32 (or TI device, or Renesas, or...) in volume, and where the cheaper device should work absolutely fine. I'm sure you do, too. You still avoid answering this question.

Some people are still hoarding logic chips, because that's what they know. Why don't they just use FPGA and/or microcontrollers? (Yeh, I know they can occasionally be quite handy when fixing or modifying stuff; so a raaco drawer filled with every variety can be useful, sure. Live and let live).

Microcontrollers are by their very nature a multitool. You don't need to use the exact best one for every use. You can drive a variety of different screws with any one of them.

I flatten an occasional board with a hand plane. It's not cuz I don't know jointers and power planers exist. It's not cuz I like the workout. It's because I don't do very much of this, and this is just one part of a much bigger process of "making stuff," which requires a lot of other tools and space. If I needed to do a lot of this task, I might buy a jointer and a power planer. AFTER acquiring these tools, even if I have just one board to flatten a year, I would do it the easy way. In the same way, Techman will probably use an STM32 for many things I would do with a PIC. If and when I ever learned how to use an STM32, I would do the same. You call it lazy, if you want. Everyone does it. You do too.

You took the words right out of my fingers!

I also have heard the same mantra "I will use anything which best fit my requirements" thousands of times, and it's true for all of us in different ways.

If a hammer is all that someone has in their toolbox, then it's a hammer which "best fits their requirements".

Another classic ...  they keep rolling of your fingers ! "Microcontrollers are by their very nature a multitool. You don't need to use the exact best one for every use. You can drive a variety of different screws with any one of them."

The Arduino fans here keep insisting than I'm here to sell STM32 while ignoring the fact that my toolbox currently contains MSP430's, PIC18x and PIC24x. It has at times also contained National PACE, SC\MP, 6800, 6802, 6805, 68HC11, Z80, 6502, 65F11, 8085, PIC16C/F84, MEGA16, MEGA32 and MEGA128.

You're right I would most probably use a STM32 but I also have a couple of hundred, very useful PIC's in SMT flat pack packages, all running the excellent FlashForth and waiting to be used. They're utterly reliable, robust, fast, and Forth is very portable between chips, (which I probably shouldn't have said because now I'll have the C fanboys here flaming me).



Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #187 on: August 24, 2019, 01:30:55 am »
But the point of the library is that the OP on the other thread doesn't even know how to code in C much less understand the machinations of SPI.  For a first approximation, he won't need to know much coding.

Why not? Is it noble to die without knowing how to code?

And if he's going to learn, why not to start from basics? That's how they do it in college, and it works well, at least it used to.

Ignorance is bliss. If you and all your friends think alike and believe the Earth is flat, not knowing any science that may cause doubt and conflict in your mind makes it so much easier and satisfying to burn a 'round earth heretic' at the stake. Everyone brings marshmellows and a good time is had by all minus one.

(not you personally of course, someone like you would probably be the guy they're burning).

As odd as it seems to you and I, many people don't want to learn about the technology they use.

Online ogden

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #188 on: August 24, 2019, 07:36:42 am »
I don't see a low dollar demo board, the kit from AD comes to over $150 (2 boards).  I'm not that curious...

Oh. Not "hobby-friendly" at all. BTW popular AD9850 have phase pin as well. Yes, for 400Hz it is overkill (125MHz clock) and cost more, but it is up-to you to decide.
 

Offline Jan Audio

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #189 on: August 24, 2019, 11:02:39 am »
The agression spreads toward PIC users now also.
 

Online sokoloff

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #190 on: August 24, 2019, 11:32:25 am »
Personally, I just assumed the micro was 5V tolerant and that he and Techman knew that. But yeah, that could be a problem.

Anyhow Langwadt was not incorrect/incomplete in his first post. The quote he refuted/corrected was the claim you could not DRIVE a GPIB bus from STM32.
I don't have (nor want to have) a dog in this fight, but is it really driving the GPIB bus to spec, or is it driving it to "works on my bench today with 3 devices connected"?

"Works on my bench today" is perfectly sufficient for a lot of use cases (I'm sure we've all done it), but it's hard to argue that it's a full drop-in replacement.
 

Offline legacy

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #191 on: August 24, 2019, 11:37:14 am »
Ignorance is bliss. If you and all your friends think alike and believe the Earth is flat, not knowing any science that may cause doubt and conflict

I never believed the Coriolis effect was something real until I sat down a rotating platform at the luna park with my girlfriend. The game was simple: two persons sit down each one on the opposite side of a rotating platform, and on a turn, each one tries to launch a balloon to the partner, who has to catch the balloon to win the game, but the Coriolis effect makes the gameplay harder than how you would believe because if you sit down on a rotating platform, the trajectory that you see is curved.

Now, I belive it  ;D
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #192 on: August 24, 2019, 12:09:53 pm »
Personally, I just assumed the micro was 5V tolerant and that he and Techman knew that. But yeah, that could be a problem.

Anyhow Langwadt was not incorrect/incomplete in his first post. The quote he refuted/corrected was the claim you could not DRIVE a GPIB bus from STM32.
I don't have (nor want to have) a dog in this fight, but is it really driving the GPIB bus to spec, or is it driving it to "works on my bench today with 3 devices connected"?

"Works on my bench today" is perfectly sufficient for a lot of use cases (I'm sure we've all done it), but it's hard to argue that it's a full drop-in replacement.

The actual start of this thread began when RHB wrote " Using a modern 3.3 V MCU and $5 in driver chips to do what a $5 MCU board will do is fairly silly unless you *really* need something the modern MCU does."

I asked "Please explain why a $0.45 STM32L053 needs $5 in driver chips and a $5 (Arduino)  MCU board does not ? "

RHB responded " Because GPIB is 5 V TTL logic and the STM32 will not *drive* 5 V logic unless you add GPIB bus drivers.  The ATMEGA line will. "

langwadt responded "VIh min for TTL is only about 2V, 3.3V will the drive TTL just fine"

Which is correct. The STM32 can read and write to TTL on many, (but not all GPIOS).

It all went pear shaped from there, many respondents weren't interested in specs, they weren't even interested in reading the thread to actually find out what was said, all they were interested in was having their say, just like RHB and I :)

This is a general chat forum not a EE design department, so words like "spec" rarely come up, rarely get answered and generally no one really cares. "Works on the bench" is usually plenty good enough.

Possibly RHB was trying to communicate that his "$5 MCU board" was actually a $5 GPIB driver board with a ATMEGA" and that detail was lost.

Nevertheless a STM32 can read and drive TTL, and with a GPIP driver chipset, also talk GPIB, possibly on a "$5 MCU board" as well.

It was a lot of debating about nothing really, but fun was had by most in the usual Internet way. There was no prize for being right, no penalty for being wrong and most posters are anonymous.

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #193 on: August 24, 2019, 12:15:42 pm »
Ignorance is bliss. If you and all your friends think alike and believe the Earth is flat, not knowing any science that may cause doubt and conflict

I never believed the Coriolis effect was something real until I sat down a rotating platform at the luna park with my girlfriend. The game was simple: two persons sit down each one on the opposite side of a rotating platform, and on a turn, each one tries to launch a balloon to the partner, who has to catch the balloon to win the game, but the Coriolis effect makes the gameplay harder than how you would believe because if you sit down on a rotating platform, the trajectory that you see is curved.

Now, I belive it  ;D

I always wondered why spaceships using a rotating living area weren't a  more popular concept because they seem like a great way to provide artificial gravity on long trips like those to Mars.

Seems the Coriolis effect is a real PITA in these cases also!

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #194 on: August 24, 2019, 12:23:55 pm »
Ignorance is bliss. If you and all your friends think alike and believe the Earth is flat, not knowing any science that may cause doubt and conflict

I never believed the Coriolis effect was something real until I sat down a rotating platform at the luna park with my girlfriend. The game was simple: two persons sit down each one on the opposite side of a rotating platform, and on a turn, each one tries to launch a balloon to the partner, who has to catch the balloon to win the game, but the Coriolis effect makes the gameplay harder than how you would believe because if you sit down on a rotating platform, the trajectory that you see is curved.

Now, I belive it  ;D

I always wondered why spaceships using a rotating living area weren't a  more popular concept because they seem like a great way to provide artificial gravity on long trips like those to Mars.

Seems the Coriolis effect is a real PITA in these cases also!
I always wondered what those ballbearings would cost and how you can get them to stay greased for a decade or so the flight takes in vacuum.
 

Offline ucanel

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #195 on: August 24, 2019, 02:55:33 pm »
...
I always wondered why spaceships using a rotating living area weren't a  more popular concept because they seem like a great way to provide artificial gravity on long trips like those to Mars.

Seems the Coriolis effect is a real PITA in these cases also!

Some deep good videos about that concept:

https://youtu.be/gTDlSORhI-k

https://youtu.be/b3D7QlMVa5s
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Offline newbrain

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #197 on: August 24, 2019, 05:20:24 pm »
For my simple experiment, all I want to do is get two signals generated and then prove that I can shift the phase of one with respect to the other.

To synchronize several chips you need to take them out of reset synchronously which requires to send an SPI command to all the chips being reset at the same time (wouldn't it be better to select a DDS with a reset pin?). So, they must be on the same SPI bus with different chip select pins. To figure that out you would need to read the datasheet. The library wouldn't help you with that, would it? Thus, you would have to read the datasheet anyway. After you have read it, you already know how to deal with the device (which is very simple BTW). So, you're ready to go. Few lines of code and you're done. Instead, you suggest:

- figure out how to use the library
- bring 363 lines of mostly useless code into your project (risking bugs and/or restrictions)

Doesn't seem like something helpful. Rather, a lot of extra work which could have been avoided and unwarranted bloat.
QFT.

Just by chance, I've recently built a little function (for very few functions...) generator based on the AD9834 (that has reset, frequency and phase select pins but is otherwise very similar to AD9833) and an STM32F072 - so I feel pretty much in topic  ;D

The driver to set frequency, phase and various control options is about 60 lines of very sparse C - add 3 dB when including a dual DAC driver for amplitude and offset.

I'm sure the time I spent coding it is comparable to the time it would have taken me to find and understand the library.
Nandemo wa shiranai wa yo, shitteru koto dake.
 

Offline Canis Dirus Leidy

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #198 on: August 24, 2019, 05:34:36 pm »
Everything is already stolen writen before us (in my very rough translation):

Quote
Aduino isn't a problem. Program speed isn't a problem, and "young programmers" isn't a problem too.

The problem is that programmers try to write programs for real devices ignoring real world. And in the end, they have to wrap the wires with foil and put iron plates to deal with interference. Or use 7805 as level translator to interface 12V tachometer signal with Atmega.

And then, when it turns out that the program that works perfectly in the simulator is buggy and crashes in real hardware, crying starts on all forums that Arduino is shit, microcontrollers are shit and they need to be soldered, electronics is shit, because you need to solder and nothing is clear.

Specifically for Arduino the trouble is that it, like microcomputers at one time, drastically lowered the threshold for entering the ecosystem, and there rushed "housewives" who didn't want to learn nuances. All what they want is just push button/insert wire/type "digitalWrite" - and everything perfectly worked.
 

Online KL27x

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #199 on: August 24, 2019, 06:53:31 pm »
^All of these same mistakes are also made by people using top of the line, modern microcontrollers and professional IDE and compilers.


Quote
I don't have (nor want to have) a dog in this fight, but is it really driving the GPIB bus to spec, or is it driving it to "works on my bench today with 3 devices connected"? 

"Works on my bench today" is perfectly sufficient for a lot of use cases (I'm sure we've all done it), but it's hard to argue that it's a full drop-in replacement.

It depends what GPIB specifications are. As long as Vih is being met with 0.4V of extra margin for noise immunity on the other end, it's fine, it meets spec, and it is not a hack... as far as the output side of things.
So it depends on the specs of GPIB. How long cable it is supposed to work across, what gauge/resistance of wiring is the minimum recommended, and possibly how many are supposed to be daisy chained. If that other stuff isn't well defined, then even 5V output will fail at some point.

Add the fact that the logic levels aren't symmetrical to begin with. There is only 0.8V margin on the low side. Even at 3.3V, there's nominal 1.3 margin on the high side. So 3.3V output might work just as well as 5V (if Vil is what is violated, first). I suppose it depends what is the output impedance of the driver high vs low, and what is the amount of current drain caused by the input pins on the bus when high signal vs low signal, if that is asymmetrical, and if you have enough inputs connected for that to even matter.

Input side is another story.
Probably most important thing to check is to see what STM32 considers digital low input. CMOS spec, I think it's 0.5V, which is less than 0.8V. It doesn't mean STM32 is that sloppy/insensitive, just that is could be and still meet CMOS compatability spec. So proper low for TTL, at 0.7V, might not be low enough for STM32. In practice, any given device usually have a smaller/tighter "indeterminate window" than what is allowed by the protocol. That transition of high and transition of low just has to be within the window of that protocol. So in a way, no, this isn't necessarily equivalent to a proper TTL level interface. That is not inherently guaranteed, anyhow, by simple virtue that STM is CMOS compatible. But if 0.8V is recognized by STM as  digital input low, which is fairly likely, it will more than likely work fine all the way to most demanding of GPIB specs.

So it would be left to you to determine if your specific CMOS device actually meets TTL specification of ViL 0.8V or not.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2019, 07:48:54 pm by KL27x »
 
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Online sokoloff

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #200 on: August 24, 2019, 07:27:10 pm »
^All of these same mistakes are also made by people using top of the line, modern microcontrollers and professional IDE and compilers.


Quote
I don't have (nor want to have) a dog in this fight, but is it really driving the GPIB bus to spec, or is it driving it to "works on my bench today with 3 devices connected"? 

"Works on my bench today" is perfectly sufficient for a lot of use cases (I'm sure we've all done it), but it's hard to argue that it's a full drop-in replacement.

It depends what GPIB specifications are. As long as Vih is being met with 0.4V of extra margin for noise immunity on the other end, it's fine, it meets spec, and it is not a hack. So it depends on the specs of GPIB. How long cable it is supposed to work across, what gauge/resistance of wiring is the minimum recommended, and possibly how many are supposed to be daisy chained. If that other stuff isn't well defined, then even 5V output will fail at some point.
Of course. I had a few moments, so I went to look. One item of the IEEE 488 spec that neither chip meets is "The driver shall be capable of sinking 48mA continuously." (emphasis mine)
 
It looks like the typical ST limit is 20mA and the AVR limit is 40mA per pin.
It does look like the voltage ranges are within reasonable limits for a 3.3V chip, at VLow of <= 0.5 V at +48mA and VHigh of >= 2.4V at -5.2 mA.

Either chip could meet the letter of the spec by paralleling 3 pins (ST) or 2 pins (Atmel) per line, providing the total chip current limits are not exceeded. It seems very likely that the total current limits would be exceeded in such a case as well as GPIB is a fairly wide parallel bus, not to mention the chips likely running out of pins as well.

With short (small number of devices) GPIB chains, the drivers probably don't need to sink all 48mA, of course, and it's pretty rare for hobbyists to have long chains of GPIB equipment and be using homebrew interfaces.
 
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Online KL27x

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #201 on: August 24, 2019, 09:08:13 pm »
Yeah, I get your point. I also edited my previous post to add the thing to check on the input side. So yeah, and no.

I doubt you need 48mA on high side. Even in your spec, it specifies must "sink" 48mA. That's the part that you would expect to fail first. Any micro that doesn't sink that much should be sketchy, then. Most micro only do 10-25mA. So sketchy, yeah. But the lower voltage rail on the output is probably a red herring.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2019, 09:24:56 pm by KL27x »
 

Online sokoloff

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #202 on: August 24, 2019, 09:19:06 pm »
That's sink current per channel (not total) and it is higher than spec'd for individual pins on both families (at least the common parts that I quickly scanned).

I agree that it's unlikely to be seen in a small installation. The high side current required by spec is quoted above. (-5.2 mA)
 

Online KL27x

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #203 on: August 24, 2019, 09:34:57 pm »
On the bright side, even though the sink capability is technically too low (for a TTL output), the output low of CMOS compatible part is guaranteed to be 0.05V max, rather than 0.5V max for TTL. So there's a lot more (2.5x) guaranteed room for voltage drop due to limitation of sink capability.

You could say XmA sink at max guaranteed VoL of 0.5V would translate into about (2.5)XmA at VoL of 0.05V max.

48ma x (0.8V-0.5V) = XmA x (0.8V-0.05V)

So sink capability of CMOS output need only be around 19.2mA to guarantee ViL of 0.8V is met, compared to 48mA on a TTL lo output that might be as high as 0.5V. This might not be the absolute all inclusive conversion, but I think it's close enough to be useful. A perhaps more inclusive way to test would be to take the STM and see how much it can sink when VoL is allowed to exceed CMOS spec but still maintain TTL spec, to see if it will meet 48mA when VoL is allowed to drift up to 0.5V. I think the 19.2mA is more accurate. But if it could pass the latter test (I doubt it; not on all pins at the same time, lol), that would guarantee it could meet VoL drive spec under any weird circumstance.

So I still think the most important thing to check is the STM's actual ViL. If it happens to flirt on the low end of CMOS spec, then it will not function within TTL spec in this case. And STM input detection of digital low will be the weak and out of spec link. I would bet ViL is actually around 1.0V at 3.3V supply, though. But some testing would be a good idea, if this isn't actually characterized in the electrical characteristics for the chip.

 
« Last Edit: August 24, 2019, 10:56:00 pm by KL27x »
 

Offline westfw

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #204 on: August 24, 2019, 11:01:22 pm »
The question was never about whether you could use a microcontroller to drive an HPIB bus “in spec”; that was pretty clearly not possible.  And saying “a 3.3V cmos high output is compatible with 5v ttl high inputs” is not a sufficient answer.


What we want to know is whether the microcontroller can directly drive a single HPIB device like a scope, power supply, or printer, so that you can replace those expensive ($100+) real usb-HPIB interfaces with something like a $5 Arduino Micro clone.  As a hack for hobbyists, or to add “unbudgeted” connectivity to old lab equipment, perhaps.


There are apparently existence proofs that this works with an avr arduino.  It would take the same (a working example) to show it satisfy anyone that an stm32f chip is up to the task.


(Techman - want to give it a try?  It ought to be a sort of ideal stm32 Forth demo project - implement a usb to HPIB bridge, and get a Forth-word  command line interface on some side channel “for free”!
And given your age and experience, you probably have some HPIB test equipment lying around...
(This is a real question.   Feel free to echo my own “it’s not worth buying an HPIB connector to try out” opinion.))
 

Online KL27x

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #205 on: August 24, 2019, 11:12:39 pm »
Quote
And saying “a 3.3V cmos high output is compatible with 5v ttl high inputs” is not a sufficient answer.
That's why we have had further discussion.

Quote
There are apparently existence proofs that this works with an avr arduino.  It would take the same (a working example) to show it satisfy anyone that an stm32f chip is up to the task.

It is not enough to put it together and see if it works in one instance. All TTL and CMOS devices are not created equal. They just must work somewhere within their protocol. That model AVR might work on one TTL bus, but not another. And that TTL bus might with with that model AVR, but not another.

It is better to sit down and see where the problems might occur, and make sure you can clear those hurdles.

In this case, test STM for ViL, IMO. Pretty much all you need to know which we don't already. If actual ViL is lower than 0.8V TTL spec, it might work with one TLL circuit, but not another one. I don't think this reality is likely, but there's no implicit guarantee this isn't the case, from what all I personally know about an STM. I know it's going to comply with CMOS standards. I also know it was made to be compatible with 5V TTL, so I believe it is safe to assume ViL will be higher than 0.8V, if you were not going to bother testing or looking it up.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2019, 11:52:33 pm by KL27x »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #206 on: August 24, 2019, 11:20:00 pm »
The question was never about whether you could use a microcontroller to drive an HPIB bus “in spec”; that was pretty clearly not possible.  And saying “a 3.3V cmos high output is compatible with 5v ttl high inputs” is not a sufficient answer.


What we want to know is whether the microcontroller can directly drive a single HPIB device like a scope, power supply, or printer, so that you can replace those expensive ($100+) real usb-HPIB interfaces with something like a $5 Arduino Micro clone.  As a hack for hobbyists, or to add “unbudgeted” connectivity to old lab equipment, perhaps.


There are apparently existence proofs that this works with an avr arduino.  It would take the same (a working example) to show it satisfy anyone that an stm32f chip is up to the task.


(Techman - want to give it a try?  It ought to be a sort of ideal stm32 Forth demo project - implement a usb to HPIB bridge, and get a Forth-word  command line interface on some side channel “for free”!
And given your age and experience, you probably have some HPIB test equipment lying around...
(This is a real question.   Feel free to echo my own “it’s not worth buying an HPIB connector to try out” opinion.))
Don't hold your breath.  ;D
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #207 on: August 25, 2019, 01:32:00 am »
For my simple experiment, all I want to do is get two signals generated and then prove that I can shift the phase of one with respect to the other.

To synchronize several chips you need to take them out of reset synchronously which requires to send an SPI command to all the chips being reset at the same time (wouldn't it be better to select a DDS with a reset pin?). So, they must be on the same SPI bus with different chip select pins. To figure that out you would need to read the datasheet. The library wouldn't help you with that, would it? Thus, you would have to read the datasheet anyway. After you have read it, you already know how to deal with the device (which is very simple BTW). So, you're ready to go. Few lines of code and you're done. Instead, you suggest:

- figure out how to use the library
- bring 363 lines of mostly useless code into your project (risking bugs and/or restrictions)

Doesn't seem like something helpful. Rather, a lot of extra work which could have been avoided and unwarranted bloat.
QFT.

Just by chance, I've recently built a little function (for very few functions...) generator based on the AD9834 (that has reset, frequency and phase select pins but is otherwise very similar to AD9833) and an STM32F072 - so I feel pretty much in topic  ;D

The driver to set frequency, phase and various control options is about 60 lines of very sparse C - add 3 dB when including a dual DAC driver for amplitude and offset.

I'm sure the time I spent coding it is comparable to the time it would have taken me to find and understand the library.

I love reading such accounts as yours and NorthGuy because as a Forth user I always write all my own code. When I see Arduino users talking about 'libraries' for such things I always wonder " does it use DMA or Interrupts or both, what actual chip options are configurable to the user, is it running in a multitasking system, what user tests and calibration are available" and so on.

About January of this year I bought a few Ti LMT-01 temperature sensors, read the small tech manual, then looked around the Internet to see if anyone had used them. I found only two Arduino examples, and both used the Ti reference from the datasheet, namely they ran continuously reading one sensor as fast as they could.

I thought this method was a waste of a MCU, so my Forth design uses any (reasonable) number of LMT-01 sensors and reads them as commanded in a multitasking system using interrupts and timers.  This allows the sensors to be used in various applications from reading wet/dry bulb humidity to accurate battery charge levels and it uses almost no CPU time therefore allowing plenty of other things to be done including instant response from a connected interactive realtime serial terminal..

It runs on a STM32F0 Discovery board but only needs a STM32F0xx MCU. I know exactly how it works, what the weak points are, what the strong points are because I designed it.

I also found the Ti LMT-01 is highly accurate out of the box.  http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lmt01.pdf

I apologize in advance for my terrible Forth code, (not that many here will know that) but as it's Open Source I may as well give the link which includes a bonus flowchart, and utube video  :-+

https://mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/project.3temp.sensors.html?highlight=temperature

Waveforms are via my 1994 HP54601A DSO using the RS232 module and a shell script on FreeBSD. No GPIB required ;-)


 
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Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #208 on: August 25, 2019, 01:51:24 am »
Everything is already stolen writen before us (in my very rough translation):

Quote
Aduino isn't a problem. Program speed isn't a problem, and "young programmers" isn't a problem too.

The problem is that programmers try to write programs for real devices ignoring real world. And in the end, they have to wrap the wires with foil and put iron plates to deal with interference. Or use 7805 as level translator to interface 12V tachometer signal with Atmega.

And then, when it turns out that the program that works perfectly in the simulator is buggy and crashes in real hardware, crying starts on all forums that Arduino is shit, microcontrollers are shit and they need to be soldered, electronics is shit, because you need to solder and nothing is clear.

Specifically for Arduino the trouble is that it, like microcomputers at one time, drastically lowered the threshold for entering the ecosystem, and there rushed "housewives" who didn't want to learn nuances. All what they want is just push button/insert wire/type "digitalWrite" - and everything perfectly worked.

I can't argue with your logic, but I wonder why would anyone who actually knows what they're doing in embedded bother with Arduino in the first place ?

Some experienced people say "I keep a Arduino on hand" for quick use" ... And I always think, "why keep a ancient, slow, 8 bit MCU with poor ADC resolution, and bugger all peripherals on hand?"

I keep a fairly modern 32 bit, 48Mhz, 12 bit ADC, 8 Timer, Forth powered STM32F on hand for quick projects. I can start a fully documented project with it in about 5 seconds. The dev board cost $10 including the inbuilt USB SWD programmer/debugger.

If I want a even lower unit in a small pcb, I can use one of these: https://mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/stm32-boards.html?highlight=green%20pill#why-not-make-your-own-green-pill

I hand solder them, and I'm 65 years old so it can't be too hard.



Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #209 on: August 25, 2019, 02:03:17 am »
What was that saying again? When all you have is Forth everything starts looking like something to argue about?  ;D

Writing everything from scratch is fun but stops making sense when the project complexity increases. No same developer would attempt to roll all of the libraries he uses himself directly or indirectly for desktop or server computing. Many highly specialised and optimised libraries exist and while reinventing the wheel is fun people don’t tend to be amused when you produce something a fraction of the quality at many times the costs. I won’t pretend all Arduino libraries are generally that sophisticated mind, although some are.
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #210 on: August 25, 2019, 02:10:14 am »
The question was never about whether you could use a microcontroller to drive an HPIB bus “in spec”; that was pretty clearly not possible.  And saying “a 3.3V cmos high output is compatible with 5v ttl high inputs” is not a sufficient answer.

What we want to know is whether the microcontroller can directly drive a single HPIB device like a scope, power supply, or printer, so that you can replace those expensive ($100+) real usb-HPIB interfaces with something like a $5 Arduino Micro clone.  As a hack for hobbyists, or to add “unbudgeted” connectivity to old lab equipment, perhaps.


There are apparently existence proofs that this works with an avr arduino.  It would take the same (a working example) to show it satisfy anyone that an stm32f chip is up to the task.


(Techman - want to give it a try?  It ought to be a sort of ideal stm32 Forth demo project - implement a usb to HPIB bridge, and get a Forth-word  command line interface on some side channel “for free”!
And given your age and experience, you probably have some HPIB test equipment lying around...
(This is a real question.   Feel free to echo my own “it’s not worth buying an HPIB connector to try out” opinion.))

No thanks Westfw, but it's a nice challenge :)

I'm already about 20+ projects behind and I dismantled my last GPIB capable device for parts (A very old 8080 powered CRT based HP Logic Analyser) well over 12 months ago.

And frankly, that's a big project for me, I'm not a EE, just a electronics technician. It would be a excellent learning experience because I'd need to use a MCU with USB support and my goto STM32F051 MCU doesn't have it.

I've started wiring up a STM32L053R8 which does have USB 2.0 crystal less support so I may try writing a USB driver for it sometime, but don't hold your breath because I have a nasty modern disease called "usbphobia" :)

https://mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/prototyping.html?highlight=prototyping#stm32l053

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #211 on: August 25, 2019, 02:16:23 am »
Quote
And saying “a 3.3V cmos high output is compatible with 5v ttl high inputs” is not a sufficient answer.
That's why we have had further discussion.

Quote
There are apparently existence proofs that this works with an avr arduino.  It would take the same (a working example) to show it satisfy anyone that an stm32f chip is up to the task.

It is not enough to put it together and see if it works in one instance. All TTL and CMOS devices are not created equal. They just must work somewhere within their protocol. That model AVR might work on one TTL bus, but not another. And that TTL bus might with with that model AVR, but not another.

It is better to sit down and see where the problems might occur, and make sure you can clear those hurdles.

In this case, test STM for ViL, IMO. Pretty much all you need to know which we don't already. If actual ViL is lower than 0.8V TTL spec, it might work with one TLL circuit, but not another one. I don't think this reality is likely, but there's no implicit guarantee this isn't the case, from what all I personally know about an STM. I know it's going to comply with CMOS standards. I also know it was made to be compatible with 5V TTL, so I believe it is safe to assume ViL will be higher than 0.8V, if you were not going to bother testing or looking it up.

Well put!  I was recently  reading a old NASA tech article on interfacing MOS MCU's with TTL subsystems and it was quite complex with just some of the important factors mentioned being:-

The usual ViL and ViH and the long term reliability issues of even small over voltages
Rise and fall times (to prevent oscillation)
Noise levels

Regrettably, I can't locate that article again.


 
« Last Edit: August 25, 2019, 02:19:50 am by techman-001 »
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #212 on: August 25, 2019, 02:40:11 am »
What was that saying again? When all you have is Forth everything starts looking like something to argue about?  ;D

Writing everything from scratch is fun but stops making sense when the project complexity increases. No same developer would attempt to roll all of the libraries he uses himself directly or indirectly for desktop or server computing. Many highly specialised and optimised libraries exist and while reinventing the wheel is fun people don’t tend to be amused when you produce something a fraction of the quality at many times the costs. I won’t pretend all Arduino libraries are generally that sophisticated mind, although some are.

"What was that saying again? When all you have is Forth everything starts looking like something to argue about?  ;D "

No not really, the few Forthers I know are highly intelligent, shy and polite people.  I'm usually polite ...

"Writing everything from scratch is fun but stops making sense when the project complexity increases."

I find your acolyte like subservience to the Ardunio Priesthood interesting and note with interest that you have swallowed their corporate thrust to the hilt.

Nothing is complicated to a Forth user.

Online sokoloff

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #213 on: August 25, 2019, 02:42:47 am »
I can't argue with your logic, but I wonder why would anyone who actually knows what they're doing in embedded bother with Arduino in the first place ?

Some experienced people say "I keep a Arduino on hand" for quick use" ... And I always think, "why keep a ancient, slow, 8 bit MCU with poor ADC resolution, and bugger all peripherals on hand?"

I keep a fairly modern 32 bit, 48Mhz, 12 bit ADC, 8 Timer, Forth powered STM32F on hand for quick projects. I can start a fully documented project with it in about 5 seconds. The dev board cost $10 including the inbuilt USB SWD programmer/debugger.
The ecosystem is part of it. I can buy a $2-3 Arduino clone and a $5 CAN shield, plug them together, take code from someone else, modify/improve it, pass it along to other people anywhere in the world who can easily buy that same micro and shield and get the same result.

I don't hold myself out as "[deeply] knows what [I'm] doing in embedded", but there's never been a time when I sat down to do something and felt like I would struggle to accomplish it. I've got all kinds of dev boards lying around here; the Raspberry Pi and Arduinos get the most usage because they're often the easiest thing to go reach for. The environment matters. The ecosystem matters. To send/receive CAN traffic to my car, I could start by reading the entire datasheet for the MCP2515, or I could plug in the CAN shield and #include <MCP2515.h> and it's 99% likely to work. One is wildly faster than the other.

Yes, I've written 6502, 8051, 68K, R3000, and x86 assembly. I've written a lot of c and c++ (and C#, SQL, VBA, and Javascript). If I had to get a relay board up on STM, I'm pretty sure I could do it in an evening. I'm more sure I can do it in 5 minutes on a $2 Arduino.

As a user, I often just want the 3/8" hole in my wall; I don't necessarily want the drill and the drill bit.
 

Online sokoloff

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #214 on: August 25, 2019, 02:44:28 am »
I've also used a few stack-based languages, but never had the occasion to use Forth for anything beyond a toy example.
It's "on the list" (that I'll never get through).
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #215 on: August 25, 2019, 03:16:30 am »
Back to the AD9833 Arduino Library...

Here's how it went:  I received one of the two demo boards today so I decided to test out the library code after soldering a coax connector and 3 pin headers.  I had loaded the library and the example code (it just produces a 1 kHz sine wave) into the Arduino yesterday just to watch the SPI toggle.  No reason to do it, no reason not to.  Just spending quality time with my scope.

I ran the 5 jumpers from the demo board (sitting on a prototype board) to the Arduino pins and applied power.  Instant 1 kHz signal.  No pain, no strain.

Literally, if the soldering were already done, it would take, at most, 5 minutes to get the signal from the time the library is downloaded.

So, I have a baseline, something I know works and I can always come back to for testing.  I can beat on the code all I want, I always have a working version.  If I mess it up, I can download it again.

Incidentally, AD has an App Note on how to program the device and, as luck would have it, the code is for 400 Hz, the original goal.

https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/application-notes/AN-1070.pdf

It simply doesn't get any easier than this.  From nowhere to clean sine wave in about 5 minutes.  No high speed interrupts, no sin() table, no DAC, just a simple programmable waveform generator driven by a really simple MCU.


 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #216 on: August 25, 2019, 03:20:36 am »
"What was that saying again? When all you have is Forth everything starts looking like something to argue about?  ;D "

No not really, the few Forthers I know are highly intelligent, shy and polite people.  I'm usually polite ...

"Writing everything from scratch is fun but stops making sense when the project complexity increases."

I find your acolyte like subservience to the Ardunio Priesthood interesting and note with interest that you have swallowed their corporate thrust to the hilt.

Nothing is complicated to a Forth user.
It'd be appreciated if you tried being at least polite on here too. In your haste to condemn the Arduino priesthood and include me in it you overlooked I wasn't speaking for it. I was merely pointing out that your confusion about or even the dislike of the use of libraries contradicts a very large part of the software industry. It has little to do with Arduino or any specific language or platform. Instead of every developer having to rewrite the same routines some spend their days writing specialised and highly optimised libraries for others to use. On the other end there's the question of where to stop. Why use a higher level language instead of assembly? Why not start filling buckets with sand to create your own silicon? If we reject the groundwork of others there's a lot of work to be done.

Regardless, could you give us an indication how much time you spent on the temperature sensor project you posted from start to finish?
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #217 on: August 25, 2019, 03:21:25 am »
I can't argue with your logic, but I wonder why would anyone who actually knows what they're doing in embedded bother with Arduino in the first place ?

Some experienced people say "I keep a Arduino on hand" for quick use" ... And I always think, "why keep a ancient, slow, 8 bit MCU with poor ADC resolution, and bugger all peripherals on hand?"

I keep a fairly modern 32 bit, 48Mhz, 12 bit ADC, 8 Timer, Forth powered STM32F on hand for quick projects. I can start a fully documented project with it in about 5 seconds. The dev board cost $10 including the inbuilt USB SWD programmer/debugger.
The ecosystem is part of it. I can buy a $2-3 Arduino clone and a $5 CAN shield, plug them together, take code from someone else, modify/improve it, pass it along to other people anywhere in the world who can easily buy that same micro and shield and get the same result.

I don't hold myself out as "[deeply] knows what [I'm] doing in embedded", but there's never been a time when I sat down to do something and felt like I would struggle to accomplish it. I've got all kinds of dev boards lying around here; the Raspberry Pi and Arduinos get the most usage because they're often the easiest thing to go reach for. The environment matters. The ecosystem matters. To send/receive CAN traffic to my car, I could start by reading the entire datasheet for the MCP2515, or I could plug in the CAN shield and #include <MCP2515.h> and it's 99% likely to work. One is wildly faster than the other.

Yes, I've written 6502, 8051, 68K, R3000, and x86 assembly. I've written a lot of c and c++ (and C#, SQL, VBA, and Javascript). If I had to get a relay board up on STM, I'm pretty sure I could do it in an evening. I'm more sure I can do it in 5 minutes on a $2 Arduino.

As a user, I often just want the 3/8" hole in my wall; I don't necessarily want the drill and the drill bit.

Thank you for the detailed response, I think you could easily deal with STM (if you needed it), the docs are good, the chips power up with sensible defaults and you clearly have the background and experience.

Note:  I'm not a STM seller, I'm not connected with them in any way, I eschew their C environment and I could just as easily be using any other decent ARM Cortex-M MCU instead.

I also struggle with this question of logic: " If Arduino is for artists and non technical people, why would any experienced embedded engineer consider the Arduino ecosystem to be anything but a curiosity, a small entertainment" ?

I also can't resist asking, will that CAN shield and Arduino code include real time message decoding if you supply the message format in a .dbc file. ;-)

Offline westfw

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #218 on: August 25, 2019, 03:29:36 am »
Quote
I wonder why would anyone who actually knows what they're doing in embedded bother with Arduino in the first place ?
One of the reasons that I “bother with” Arduino is that code I write is more likely to be useful to “other people.”  A sort of “customer oriented” philosophy, I guess.  I tend to be interested in writing “deep infrastructure” code, so it’s frequently hard to feel like I’m doing anything “useful”, but if I, say, fix the Adafruit SamD51 arduino core implementation of “delayMicrosecondsuple()”, the I’ve potentially helped a lot of people...


Back to HPIB: feel free to do usb-serial-HPIB if usb is too scary.  The “working example” that I found first used an uno, which doesn’t have native usb support, either.

It seems to me that the big stumbling block is likely to be the sink current needed to ensure a logic 0 output from the micro is recognized.   A couple of 74F gates with some 2.2k pull-up resistors is going to stress some of those modern 4mA uC outputs (no, I didn’t check the stm32 specs - they are generally better than 4ma, right?)

And yeah, something that doesn’t meet the specs will always require testing in the exact use circumstances that you’ll use.  Especially given the long lifetime of GPIB.  But one working example is a start...
« Last Edit: August 25, 2019, 03:32:17 am by westfw »
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #219 on: August 25, 2019, 03:31:26 am »
"What was that saying again? When all you have is Forth everything starts looking like something to argue about?  ;D "

No not really, the few Forthers I know are highly intelligent, shy and polite people.  I'm usually polite ...

"Writing everything from scratch is fun but stops making sense when the project complexity increases."

I find your acolyte like subservience to the Ardunio Priesthood interesting and note with interest that you have swallowed their corporate thrust to the hilt.

Nothing is complicated to a Forth user.
<snip your usual nonsense>

Regardless, could you give us an indication how much time you spent on the temperature sensor project you posted from start to finish?

For that project my Forth coding fun finished way too soon for me  but I estimate the time to be about 1.783 x 10 ^ 99 times longer than any coding you have ever done given your fairly obvious horror associated with all things code related.

Were you abused by Emacs or Vi as a small child perhaps ?

Offline westfw

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #220 on: August 25, 2019, 03:35:05 am »
Quote
Were you abused by Emacs
What?  TECO was a wonderful programming language!
 :)
 
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Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #221 on: August 25, 2019, 04:05:10 am »
Quote
I wonder why would anyone who actually knows what they're doing in embedded bother with Arduino in the first place ?
One of the reasons that I “bother with” Arduino is that code I write is more likely to be useful to “other people.”  A sort of “customer oriented” philosophy, I guess.  I tend to be interested in writing “deep infrastructure” code, so it’s frequently hard to feel like I’m doing anything “useful”, but if I, say, fix the Adafruit SamD51 arduino core implementation of “delayMicrosecondsuple()”, the I’ve potentially helped a lot of people...


Back to HPIB: feel free to do usb-serial-HPIB if usb is too scary.  The “working example” that I found first used an uno, which doesn’t have native usb support, either.

It seems to me that the big stumbling block is likely to be the sink current needed to ensure a logic 0 output from the micro is recognized.   A couple of 74F gates with some 2.2k pull-up resistors is going to stress some of those modern 4mA uC outputs (no, I didn’t check the stm32 specs - they are generally better than 4ma, right?)

And yeah, something that doesn’t meet the specs will always require testing in the exact use circumstances that you’ll use.  Especially given the long lifetime of GPIB.  But one working example is a start...

Hey if fixing Arduino code is your thing, I apologize for my use of the term "bother with”, no insult was intended, especially not to you.

What percentage of Arduino users would even know the different delay() mechanisms possible with that MCU I wonder ?

.

I agree, there are no doubt plenty of specs to be considered to do the job properly, and I sure didn't claim (and wouldn't) that a STM32F could drive the GPIB bus directly.

For one thing, I've no idea of the specs of the GPIB bus, and I'm not likely to care because I've never needed it, it's old, and we have Ethernet now instead.

What does interest me however is learning the 'typical' parameters of a STM32 talking to some TTL and writing up my findings. I'll do this in the next couple of weeks as soon as I can find the time AND some TTL as I ditched my stock of brand new Ti TTL chips a few years ago.

I lived and worked thru the "Age of TTL" and I was incredibly relieved to see it's demise. Thank you oh God of CMOS!

It is important to note that STM32 GPIOs configured as inputs are 5-V tolerant, not 5-V compliant meaning that 5 V is tolerated by internally clamping the input voltage to VDD.

As far as OUTPUTS are concerned there are a TON of factors, voltage levels, rise and fall times, noise etc. This is proper design territory.

Sure, the STM32 may be far from 'TTL compliant'  but what makes everyone think that Arduino MEGA328P is any better ?





Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #222 on: August 25, 2019, 04:08:07 am »
I've also used a few stack-based languages, but never had the occasion to use Forth for anything beyond a toy example.
It's "on the list" (that I'll never get through).

Such a long list, such a short life !   :)

My gravestone will read:

"~~ I Died Mid Project ~~"

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #223 on: August 25, 2019, 04:12:54 am »
=
For that project my Forth coding fun finished way too soon for me  but I estimate the time to be about 1.783 x 10 ^ 99 times longer than any coding you have ever done given your fairly obvious horror associated with all things code related.

Were you abused by Emacs or Vi as a small child perhaps ?
You refuse to both acknowledge the purpose and usefulness of libraries and report the time it took you to complete your project because you know it ruins your narrative. Being abusive doesn't change that so you may want to revise your answer.

Although it wouldn't surprise me if your project actually took longer than human history to complete  ;D An Ammonite writing Forth is quite a sight to behold. Look at those tentacles tickle the keyboard!
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #224 on: August 25, 2019, 04:42:50 am »
=
For that project my Forth coding fun finished way too soon for me  but I estimate the time to be about 1.783 x 10 ^ 99 times longer than any coding you have ever done given your fairly obvious horror associated with all things code related.

Were you abused by Emacs or Vi as a small child perhaps ?
<snip usual nonsense>

Although it wouldn't surprise me if your project actually took longer than human history to complete  ;D An Ammonite writing Forth is quite a sight to behold. Look at those tentacles tickle the keyboard!

May Malcom forgive you for your blasphemy about tentacles!

"Ammonite, any member of an ancient Semitic people whose principal city was Rabbath Ammon, in Palestine. The “sons of Ammon” were in perennial, though sporadic, conflict with the Israelites. After a long period of seminomadic existence, the Ammonites established a kingdom north of Moab in the 13th century bc. With difficulty, their fortress capital was captured by Israel’s King David. An Ammonite woman, one of many foreigners taken into Israel’s King Solomon’s harem, was responsible for inducing the king to worship the Ammonite god Malcom."

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Ammonite

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #225 on: August 25, 2019, 05:11:58 am »
May Malcom forgive you for your blasphemy about tentacles!

"Ammonite, any member of an ancient Semitic people whose principal city was Rabbath Ammon, in Palestine. The “sons of Ammon” were in perennial, though sporadic, conflict with the Israelites. After a long period of seminomadic existence, the Ammonites established a kingdom north of Moab in the 13th century bc. With difficulty, their fortress capital was captured by Israel’s King David. An Ammonite woman, one of many foreigners taken into Israel’s King Solomon’s harem, was responsible for inducing the king to worship the Ammonite god Malcom."

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Ammonite
It's okay, we understand you need a couple of tries before you understand what's required of you. While we wait for you to acknowledge the purpose and usefulness of libraries maybe you can detail how you wrote an ethernet stack from scratch?

 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #226 on: August 25, 2019, 06:21:20 am »
I also struggle with this question of logic: " If Arduino is for artists and non technical people, why would any experienced embedded engineer consider the Arduino ecosystem to be anything but a curiosity, a small entertainment" ?


Because getting results is fast!  See my 5 minutes from zero to sine wave output using AD9833 library a few posts back.  Literally, less than 5 minutes from downloading library and example code to working sine wave and that time is used to run the interconnects.

The goal is getting the sine wave, not advancing the leading edge of technology.
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #227 on: August 25, 2019, 07:36:58 am »
I also struggle with this question of logic: " If Arduino is for artists and non technical people, why would any experienced embedded engineer consider the Arduino ecosystem to be anything but a curiosity, a small entertainment" ?


Because getting results is fast!  See my 5 minutes from zero to sine wave output using AD9833 library a few posts back.  Literally, less than 5 minutes from downloading library and example code to working sine wave and that time is used to run the interconnects.

The goal is getting the sine wave, not advancing the leading edge of technology.

I did read your AD9833 post with interest (as I read all your posts with interest) and I also read NorthGuy's followup which said in part "It is simple SPI interface, with only 4 registers. You just set 28-bit frequency and 12-bit phase register. That's all. See, I already know how to set the phase, and you're yet to figure how to use your library. Reading datasheet has put me way ahead of where you are with the library."

Perhaps it's not the best example because getting a sine wave takes me about 5 seconds after I turn on my old PM5314 Philips 1 - 20 MHZ  function generator.

If you had claimed "Because getting results can be fast!" I couldn't really argue that point, because sure, getting the Arduino Blinky is as fast as the getting the Forth Blinky. Both only take seconds to upload to the chip.

Although you get a complete operating system on your chip with Forth in that time, as well as a blinky, Arduino Blinky is still mega fast. The Arduino Java IDE is kinda cool, the whole thing has a look of easy use about it.

My Forth IDE looks a lot less polished. https://mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io/modern-forth-development-environment.html#a-modern-forth-ide

Unfortunately Arduino is not always fast getting results, especially in instances when where no library is available, such as the LMT-01 two wire (not Dallas 2 wire) temperature sensor from Ti.

Unbelievably I see Ti have even included Arduino example code in their official training webpage ... words fail me.

https://training.ti.com/how-interface-lmt01-temperature-sensor-arduino

I did however find a Arduino user very frustrated in Apr 06, 2018, when trying to get his LMT-01 sensor going. There is no [solved] followup to that thread.

https://arduino.stackexchange.com/questions/51588/lmt01-temperature-sensor-code-does-not-run-need-help

"So to repeat myself only Pin2 is attached with the LMT01 to the Arduino. Why doesn't this &!#^-thing work, it compiled and uploaded correctly. If I had a debugger on this software, moving one line at a time I could fix it myself"

Offline Simon

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #228 on: August 25, 2019, 08:14:33 am »
I don't think arduino users are aggressive. Maybe a bit blind to using anything else. I find the forum moderators more protective though. For heavens sake don't criticize the library documentation even if others agree that it's bad, you will get banned! I do use it from time to time when i need a one off that designing a PCB for is not feasible. But every time i use it I get unexplained odities. Last one was that one of the PWM outputs would stop working when i wrote a value to one of the others, the forum could not help other than to demand to see my code wich was silly and the problem was very simple and as I explained it code was not neccessary. Having already been banned before for being critical I just abandoned my attempt at pointing out a bug and just fixed it by rewriting to the offending channel every time i wrote to the other one to mask the problem.

The arduino is claimed to be for beginers but the level of knowledge the forum expects you to have is not beginner.
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Offline legacy

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #229 on: August 25, 2019, 10:02:44 am »
I find the forum moderators more protective though. For heavens sake don't criticize the library documentation even if others agree that it's bad, you will get banned!

It seems a thing for kids, where mods have much bias, and a thing that is granted, that's not a place for adults.
 

Offline legacy

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #230 on: August 25, 2019, 10:11:51 am »
I also struggle with this question of logic: " If Arduino is for artists and non technical people, why would any experienced embedded engineer consider the Arduino ecosystem to be anything but a curiosity, a small entertainment" ?

Because getting results is fast!

This is what my colleagues think. And I do think the same.
 

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #231 on: August 25, 2019, 10:15:34 am »
horses for courses. I have used the arduino for a test item at work and a one off for a customer of mine. If you are making one that can be achieved with an arduino why not? why design a specific PCB. Of course you are free to just program the boards as you please.
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Offline AG7CK

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #232 on: August 25, 2019, 11:01:18 am »

...

What we want to know is whether the microcontroller can directly drive a single HPIB device like a scope, power supply, or printer, so that you can replace those expensive ($100+) real usb-HPIB interfaces with something like a $5 Arduino Micro clone.  As a hack for hobbyists, or to add “unbudgeted” connectivity to old lab equipment, perhaps.

...


This is indeed the question. And there is empirical evidence that Arduino works. Not only one implementation, but several projects. Used by tens or hundreds of people. A quick search will reveal this. Fanboyz of other uC boards or chips are of course free to use or fail with whatever they want.

And "old lab equipment" includes HP3458A - an 8.5 DMM costing some 9k USD or thereabout new, and 3-6k or so used. Even if it today is sold branded Keysight 3458A, it has not changed much in 20+ years, and if you want to talk to it you "must" use GPIB. Volt-nuts and other precision measurement geeks do generally not want to waste money on shamefully overpriced adapters. So some of these world class meters transfer data to the PC via an eBay Arduino clone.

Apart from the 48 mA value mentioned earlier, it might be useful to learn that "VIH = 3.4 volts typical, 2.4 volts minimum"  and "All lines in the GPIB are tri-state except for ‘SQR’, ‘NRFD’, and ‘NDAC’ which are open-collector. The standard bus termination is a 3K resistor connected to 5 volts in series with a 6.2K resistor to ground - all values having a 5% tolerance." For electrically sound reliability reasons it is stated that "No more than 15 device loads connected to each bus, with no less than two-thirds powered on".

Sources:

http://www.hit.bme.hu/~papay/edu/GPIB/tutor.htm
http://www.interfacebus.com/Design_Connector_GPIB.html

Interesting  :blah:
https://forums.ni.com/t5/Instrument-Control-GPIB-Serial/Why-must-two-thirds-of-the-instruments-on-a-GPIB-bus-be-on/td-p/760500?profile.language=en
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Why Arduino users so agressive?
« Reply #233 on: August 25, 2019, 03:17:48 pm »

I did read your AD9833 post with interest (as I read all your posts with interest) and I also read NorthGuy's followup which said in part "It is simple SPI interface, with only 4 regist