Author Topic: Why are you still using 8 bit MCUs?  (Read 113066 times)

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Offline dannyf

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Re: Why are you still using 8 bit MCUs?
« Reply #225 on: October 08, 2013, 11:25:29 am »
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XMEGA vs. any ARM micro

I am actually surprised that anyone is using Xmega. In my view, any investment in it is wasted - I don't see much future for it.
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Offline olsenn

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Re: Why are you still using 8 bit MCUs?
« Reply #226 on: October 08, 2013, 11:31:31 am »
Sometimes 8-bit is all (or more than) you need. 32-bit is more difficult to program, less power efficient (often), often more buggy, and probably often more expensive
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: Why are you still using 8 bit MCUs?
« Reply #227 on: October 08, 2013, 11:34:47 am »
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Sometimes 8-bit is all (or more than) you need.

Agreed.
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Offline mrflibble

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Re: Why are you still using 8 bit MCUs?
« Reply #228 on: October 08, 2013, 11:51:27 am »
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In actual applications they still can't touch 8 bit MCUs.

I am curious as to what those applications are.

Maybe for example led lighting on the cheap. The STM8S003F3 is EUR 0.46 at 100 units. For that you get 5 PWM channels + a 10-bit ADC multiplexed over 5 channels, and then some spare pins for UART etc. I wouldn't mind at all using a 32-bit arm for that (mainly for convenience of toolchain), but I can't seem to find a part that meets the requirements. :P So 8-bit mcu it is, purely because the 32-bitters are too expensive. Price target is 0.10 EUR per PWM/adc channel pair.
 

Offline David_AVD

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Re: Why are you still using 8 bit MCUs?
« Reply #229 on: October 08, 2013, 12:07:33 pm »
I am actually surprised that anyone is using Xmega. In my view, any investment in it is wasted - I don't see much future for it.

I found the XMEGA to be perfectly fine for my first foray into Atmel micros.  I've just done another board design with one.
 

Offline Rufus

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Re: Why are you still using 8 bit MCUs?
« Reply #230 on: October 08, 2013, 12:32:09 pm »
PIC32 doesn't use MIPS because it's cheaper, it uses MIPS because it's older.

The PIC32 uses MIPS because Microchip didn't see any money competing in the cut-throat ARM cored processor market.

They claim the MIPS core uses a bit less silicon for the same performance and I am sure their licensing fees will be attractive.

All the ARM zealots rave about how they cost peanuts - means all the manufacturers are working for peanuts.

 

Offline brabus

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Re: Why are you still using 8 bit MCUs?
« Reply #231 on: October 08, 2013, 01:44:36 pm »
A quick answer to the original question.

John, if you want to play alone at home, I agree: have fun with your 32 bit MCU, make the LED blink at 100 MHz, while you pilot a color TFT touch screen display. :bullshit:

Serious production, however, is a different world, and there is a good reason if all those 8-bit families are still alive and rocking.  :-+

We are going to see 8-bit MCUs in the market for a looong, looooong time... ::)
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 01:50:07 pm by brabus »
 

Offline JTR

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Re: Why are you still using 8 bit MCUs?
« Reply #232 on: October 08, 2013, 03:03:26 pm »
A quick answer to the original question.

John, if you want to play alone at home, I agree: have fun with your 32 bit MCU, make the LED blink at 100 MHz, while you pilot a color TFT touch screen display. :bullshit:

John left the building over 2 1/2 years ago. Just a few days after his hit and run trolling. Probably on a tropical beach somewhere with a cold beer in one hand and a hot babe in the other laughing his head off...
 

Offline Vasi

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Re: Why are you still using 8 bit MCUs?
« Reply #233 on: October 08, 2013, 04:06:28 pm »
This is how you interface 5V sensors and actuators to a Sitara AM3359AZCZ100 (ARM Cortex-A8) via an 8bit AVR:
Arduino TRE

So I think this is the right answer to the OP.
In fact, it means much more if they will take the right decision and add 1024Mb instead of 512Mb of RAM. It will be a great Linux computer with AVR hardware inside and amazing interfacing capabilities.
Who want one ? ? ? I need one ASAP!
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 04:15:13 pm by Vasi »
 

Offline ju1ce

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Re: Why are you still using 8 bit MCUs?
« Reply #234 on: October 08, 2013, 04:50:03 pm »
Do you use debuggers with 8-bit micros? I find Cortex-M0's much nicer than for example ATMegas because I can easily see what's happening. I think 32 bit micros are about as easy to program as 8-bitters - while 8-bit controllers are simpler, the 32-bit ones have nicer peripherals which make my life a lot easier.

On the other hand, if I were building something really simple, like some PWM controller, I would use a 8-bit micro. I wouldn't need debugging for that, and 8-bit micros come in DIP packages so I wouldn't have to have a board made.
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: Why are you still using 8 bit MCUs?
« Reply #235 on: October 08, 2013, 05:07:33 pm »
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We are going to see 8-bit MCUs in the market for a looong, looooong time...

By that yardstick, 1-bit mcus are still alive and rocking too.
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Offline Kjelt

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Re: Why are you still using 8 bit MCUs?
« Reply #236 on: October 08, 2013, 05:10:49 pm »
Both have their own turf, I can not imagine an 8 bitter doing a complete IP stack handling and controlling the rest of a device almost real time with an RTOS.
 

Offline gocemk

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Re: Why are you still using 8 bit MCUs?
« Reply #237 on: October 08, 2013, 05:51:06 pm »
IMHO and experience, 8-bit micros are much easier for programming (addressing registers, selecting I/Os, etc...) than their 32-bit counterparts from ARM. This is very important for someone who is just beginning to work with microcontrollers. Also the new, revised architectures, for PIC for example, are optimized for C programming, have low energy consumption features, and lots of other peripherals...I just finished my graduation work, which was 4DOF Robotic Arm, controlled via joystick.
All i needed was to read from 2 potentiometers, (2 channels from the AD converter), few push buttons to select the motors, and to read from 4 limit switches. The microcontroller i used (PIC18F45K22) was really an overkill for this kind of stuff, and many of it's features left unused. Should i have used STM32 or similar, just because it's 32-bit?!
 

Offline cloudscapes

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Re: Why are you still using 8 bit MCUs?
« Reply #238 on: October 08, 2013, 05:57:07 pm »
IMHO and experience, 8-bit micros are much easier for programming (addressing registers, selecting I/Os, etc...) than their 32-bit counterparts from ARM. This is very important for someone who is just beginning to work with microcontrollers.

Hugely important.

I started on 8bit micros in 2009. Wasn't a piece of cake but I kept at it. Had I started with 32bit micros right off the bat instead, I would have surely given up.
 

Offline WarSim

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Why are you still using 8 bit MCUs?
« Reply #239 on: October 08, 2013, 06:03:28 pm »
I think I figured out one part of the disagreement. 
Comparing a new 32 bit chip power consumption to an old 8 bit chip could be better, just like power consumption on a new 8 bit is better than the old 8 bits.  This comparison would seem valid to someone that thinks 8 bit means old, and larger numbers in the part number means newer. 
Old 8 bit didn't have power saving methods like XLP, mXLP, dose, suspect etc.  Also microchip was smart with their new 8 bit product numbering just like the logic community.  The low power version part numbers where associated with their original market numbers.  Just like the J SL versions of logic.  So with just these two lapses of reality, yes a valid argument can be made for 32bit power consumption. 

I also noticed the disagreement changed from power consumption to power efficiency to cloud the point The one point that has validity for 32bit over 8bit is core voltage.  This topic was not mentioned once.  If Freescale is using 0.2v cores then yes they could be more efficient, until there is a 0.7v 8 bit chip.  As to port efficiency if I am using a PCI32 interface yes a 32bit chip would be a great choice.  But because of the drive to reduce design copper, intercommunication has been driven to serial, 4bit, 7bit, 8bit. 

 Cost debate.  The 32bit market is very competitive with very low margins.  One way to reduce costs is have a small active product span and evolving products.  In the consumer disposable mentality this could make sense to some.  In all other industries and many consumer goods sectors these methods are problematic. Microchip for example has taken a different approach.  They support each chip until it is deemed not required by its partners.  New chips are brought into the selection to satisfy new goals.  This system costs more but works better because it supplies the right chip for the task and maintains designer confidence.  They understand manufacturing and product life projections.  Other companies I am less sure, (aka I don't know).  Many be they all do understand but they have so few partners they can drop products faster. 

If anyone thinks that part substitution is only based on pin out and function.  I am not responding to you because you have already lost on this point.  Evolving a current part without significant partner participation is a big problem, and may be disastrous to the lesser partners, and opportunity consumers.  This is most likely you can still buy active products that are very close to the original design specs if not the same.  Hint, if the product site says not recommended for new design.  This means it is still active only because it is still needed to support previous designs.  If you use the part in a new design with a mid to long life then you are asking for trouble.  Other companies use this term for inactive products, Microchip uses the EOL term.  This is why there are so many chip available from Microchip and other like minded companies. 

Because of these factor yes you certainly find PICs that will use much more power than a low power 32bit variant.  TI still makes original and J logic this doesn't mean that SL series don't exist.  If you want to compare core efficiency select chips with equal core voltages.  If you want to compare power efficiency compare equivalent classes.  BTW due to the competitive market, marketing spins their figures.  The truth is only revealed until the entire data-sheet of both are fully digested.   
 

Offline tsmith35

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Re: Why are you still using 8 bit MCUs?
« Reply #240 on: October 08, 2013, 09:36:08 pm »
Personally, I like using 8-bit mcus because they're cheap, plentiful, and there are a ton of good programming examples out there for them.
 

Offline westfw

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Re: Why are you still using 8 bit MCUs?
« Reply #241 on: October 08, 2013, 11:42:40 pm »
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The 32bit market is very competitive with very low margins.
Is this a good time to put on my accountant hat and point out that many of the vendors offering the low-end ARM chips are ... losing money?  EPS Atmel: -0.06, FreescaleL -0.69, ST Microsystems: -1.39, NXP: 0.38 (! that's new.  P/E 96+, though.)

Not that all 8-bit players are doing any better.  (many of those companies have feet in the 8bit market as well.)
 

Offline andyturk

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Re: Why are you still using 8 bit MCUs?
« Reply #242 on: October 09, 2013, 02:46:21 am »
The main reason to go 32-bit (instead of 8- or 16-bit) is that you'll spend less time fiddling with algorithmic C code to make it work. 8-bit architectures often add restrictions to what you can do in C--compromises between what the language definition supplies and what the hardware can support. With a 32-bit ARM chip, the silicon is basically an engine that runs C.

If your code is simple, then you could spend less time with an 8-bit chip. But many projects nowadays have networking requirements (e.g., usb, bluetooth, ethernet, etc.) and network stacks are basically big piles of C code. Using up  your RAM or code space on networking stuff means you've got to spend more time optimizing everything else to shoehorn your software into a smaller mcu.

In the end, it comes down to which is more cost effective. Is it cheaper to spend engineering time to cram your software onto the cheapest piece of silicon that will run it, or is it better to use an architecture with some "headroom" and allocate your resources to other areas?

I'm working on a project now where we spec'd the biggest, baddest ARM Cortex M4 we could find for the first couple of prototypes. Later on, when get closer to production, we'll fit the hardware design to just what the software needs in order to run. We've got three code monkeys for each EE on the project, so software issues dominate the planning process.
 

Offline AndyC_772

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Re: Why are you still using 8 bit MCUs?
« Reply #243 on: October 09, 2013, 06:00:56 am »
Is this a good time to put on my accountant hat and point out that many of the vendors offering the low-end ARM chips are ... losing money?  EPS Atmel: -0.06, FreescaleL -0.69, ST Microsystems: -1.39, NXP: 0.38 (! that's new.  P/E 96+, though.)

That sounds like the sort of confidential information I'd have expected manufacturers to want to keep very quiet indeed... mind if I ask where those figures came from?

Offline WarSim

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Why are you still using 8 bit MCUs?
« Reply #244 on: October 09, 2013, 06:10:57 am »

The main reason to go 32-bit (instead of 8- or 16-bit) is that you'll spend less time fiddling with algorithmic C code to make it work. 8-bit architectures often add restrictions to what you can do in C--compromises between what the language definition supplies and what the hardware can support. With a 32-bit ARM chip, the silicon is basically an engine that runs C.

If your code is simple, then you could spend less time with an 8-bit chip. But many projects nowadays have networking requirements (e.g., usb, bluetooth, ethernet, etc.) and network stacks are basically big piles of C code. Using up  your RAM or code space on networking stuff means you've got to spend more time optimizing everything else to shoehorn your software into a smaller mcu.

In the end, it comes down to which is more cost effective. Is it cheaper to spend engineering time to cram your software onto the cheapest piece of silicon that will run it, or is it better to use an architecture with some "headroom" and allocate your resources to other areas?

I'm working on a project now where we spec'd the biggest, baddest ARM Cortex M4 we could find for the first couple of prototypes. Later on, when get closer to production, we'll fit the hardware design to just what the software needs in order to run. We've got three code monkeys for each EE on the project, so software issues dominate the planning process.
Fiddling comment makes no sense.  Only difference is in skill set.  BTW programming has been part of my job since 1986.  During that time I have coded for many different architectures, spanning 4 bit micro processors to multi CPU clusters.  In all cases you code for the device and environment.  Calling one fiddly and another easier seems very silly to me. 

Second statement makes more sense.  Yes almost everyone here has stated or agreed that it is important to choose the right chip for the task.  As far as libraries are concerned, yes if your company has not made slimmer Bluetooth/Ethernet/USB libraries you will need to use the OEM supplied libraries.  Yes you will need more memory, again this is about selecting the right chip for the job.  Also makes me wonder what you call "big piles of C code".  Thus far my recent project have required 8bit and 16bit PICs, but this would not keep me from using one of the 32bit chip I have on my shelf.  The difference I see is I do not have an ad version to using a 8 or 16 bit microprocessor. 

Yes it is all about money almost all the time.  Again II agree that the right size for the job is required.  One factor is if you personally have to "cram" you code into the chip you selected the wrong size.  Just accept that others may not have these limitations.  Yes proper chip selection should supply headroom. 

Hmm.  By your derogatory comment of "code monkey" I now wonder why I would even bother to try explain my position to you as an peer.  I think giving you that credit was a mistake on my part.  As a person with decades of experience in electronics and programming I find your attitude deplorable. 
 

Offline westfw

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Re: Why are you still using 8 bit MCUs?
« Reply #245 on: October 09, 2013, 07:40:24 am »
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That sounds like the sort of confidential information I'd have expected manufacturers to want to keep very quiet indeed... mind if I ask where those figures came from?
If they're publicly traded companies, it's gotta be public information.
I got it from yahoo finance pages; you can probably find more details in published quarterly reports and such.
For example: http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=STM
(a lot of stuff on yahoo finance boards is just public facts and figures, but ... avoid placing any faith in stuff that people say on the "message boards.")

(why do engineers tend to be so clueless when it comes to finance/business?  I certainly was before I was dragged along through the "successful start-up experience.")
 

Offline mtechmatt

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Re: Why are you still using 8 bit MCUs?
« Reply #246 on: October 09, 2013, 07:51:59 am »
I have found most PIC24s are now cheaper than an 8 bit PIC18, but I love 5v ;) (Working mainly with automotive stuff so 5v sensors etc)

Matt
 

Offline AndyC_772

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Re: Why are you still using 8 bit MCUs?
« Reply #247 on: October 09, 2013, 07:53:43 am »
(why do engineers tend to be so clueless when it comes to finance/business?

Insufficient coffee. I probably shouldn't post anything before about 9.30am.

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Why are you still using 8 bit MCUs?
« Reply #248 on: October 09, 2013, 08:32:00 am »
why do engineers tend to be so clueless when it comes to finance/business?
Perhaps because it is of no interest for an engineer to know if:
A certain 32bit uC is sold for 1.- with a loss for the company of 0,60 or a certain 8 bit uC is sold for 0,75 with a loss of 0,25. The only thing of direct intrest is the price that has to be paid in the end ;)
Maybe that a financial manager starts to drool if he sees the extra discount and is willing to pay more so he feels good  ;)
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: Why are you still using 8 bit MCUs?
« Reply #249 on: October 09, 2013, 10:28:42 am »
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you'll spend less time fiddling with algorithmic C code to make it work.

Is that really true?

"x = y+z;" is always the same (in C) on an 8-bit mcu or a 32-bit mcu.

I have plengty of math-intensive routines that run flawlessly, and unmodified, on 8-bit/16-bit and 32-bit mcus.
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