Author Topic: Why do people not like Microchip?  (Read 67975 times)

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Offline mfro

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Re: Why do people not like Microchip?
« Reply #225 on: November 10, 2021, 05:21:32 pm »
... Took all of 30 minutes to do. The customer was very impressed, and it made me feel very good that it was one of those rare occasions where everything just worked exactly right the very first time.

If something appears too good to be true ...
Beethoven wrote his first symphony in C.
 

Offline commie

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Re: Why do people not like Microchip?
« Reply #226 on: November 10, 2021, 09:03:57 pm »
Well, I see typical Microchip marketing strategies with the latest AVR's, that is to make AVR's slightly faster and offer them at ultra low prices and start to increase prices for mature AVR's. Replace the programming protocol from isp to updi, so now we all need to dig into our pockets yet again. I'm sure third party prog. pod manufactures pay dividends towards Microchip for changing to a slower prog. protocol.This makes electronics, in general, a joke. :-DD

 

Offline Simon

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Re: Why do people not like Microchip?
« Reply #227 on: November 21, 2021, 06:02:04 pm »
If you are refering to the latest incarnation of the mega 0 series (original X-mega) I think they have done well there. Now at last an AVR that OK can do 24MHz, maybe no one asked for that but they will work down to 3V at full speed unlike the older AVR stuff and even the mega-0 they introduced which while based of a 3.3V osly xmega had the traditional speed limitations at anything but 5V. I now see why they were having A and B type peripherals as now C and D types have emerged. I've not used any but they look like a worthy replacement to the mega 0 serieos and they won't require code rip up's for the new stuff.

Were x-mega SPI? I think there may be a number of false claims out there about microchip as haters like to hate. One user here told me that the XC8 compiler is just a rip off of the AVR-libC and GCC, well no not really, it was atmel that originally forked the compiler and libraries and when you install atmel (now microchip) studio you were just installing a commercially provided for free version. Sure they are probably not all nice but I don't think they are as bad as people make out.

The programmer on the new devices is the very same ICE introduced by atmel, they just put the price up although at the moment if you can buy one at all just shut up and be happy you can buy something :)
« Last Edit: November 21, 2021, 06:03:42 pm by Simon »
 

Offline AaronD

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Re: Why do people not like Microchip?
« Reply #228 on: November 21, 2021, 08:41:52 pm »
I have a complete development environment on a Raspberry Pi that supports both PIC and AVR, with all-free software.  Code::Blocks IDE for both, and the process splits from there: PIC's get the SDCC compiler, and AVR's get the public version of AVR-GCC.  Each also has its own open-source programmer (PICkle and AVRdude) that I've set up to use different GPIO pins, so they can coexist on the same Pi.  LVP-only for my version, but the configurations also appear to support a separate transistor circuit to control a +13V Vpp rail if you want to do that.  Add some scripts into Code::Blocks to fire the appropriate terminal commands, and you can control the entire process from inside the IDE.

What I have is not a debugger, only a programmer, so you have to do your debugging the old-fashioned way, but for those like me that learned that way anyway, that's fine.
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Why do people not like Microchip?
« Reply #229 on: November 21, 2021, 09:21:09 pm »
If you are refering to the latest incarnation of the mega 0 series (original X-mega) I think they have done well there. Now at last an AVR that OK can do 24MHz, maybe no one asked for that but they will work down to 3V at full speed unlike the older AVR stuff and even the mega-0 they introduced which while based of a 3.3V osly xmega had the traditional speed limitations at anything but 5V. I now see why they were having A and B type peripherals as now C and D types have emerged. I've not used any but they look like a worthy replacement to the mega 0 serieos and they won't require code rip up's for the new stuff.

Were x-mega SPI?

SPI, as in PDI or ISP?  Yes.  My ancient AVRISPMKII handles XMEGA.

UPDI is just async serial, bidirectional on a single pin.  It doesn't require a programmer, just a UART, and a resistor to resolve direction.  The comment above yours, I think is either assuming too much about the new protocol, or trolling.  (Personally, I've tested it with a new AVR-DA chip, and was pleasantly surprised to use a MAX232 of all things, as a "programmer".)

To clarify, XMEGA is 1.6-3.6V, with frequency derated down to 12MHz at 1.6-1.8V, up to 32MHz at 2.7V.  The onboard PLL can multiply up to 128MHz (derated to 48MHz at LV, over the same voltage range), and is used at that rate for timers and some other peripherals, while the CPU is limited of course (I haven't tried overclocking it).

AVR-DA is 24MHz (48MHz PLL for TCD only) over the full 1.8-5.5V range, at least, as near as I can tell.  Interesting that it isn't dependent, or at least I've just not been able to spot the curve; it's a big datasheet.


Quote
I think there may be a number of false claims out there about microchip as haters like to hate. One user here told me that the XC8 compiler is just a rip off of the AVR-libC and GCC, well no not really, it was atmel that originally forked the compiler and libraries and when you install atmel (now microchip) studio you were just installing a commercially provided for free version. Sure they are probably not all nice but I don't think they are as bad as people make out.

The programmer on the new devices is the very same ICE introduced by atmel, they just put the price up although at the moment if you can buy one at all just shut up and be happy you can buy something :)

It's also integrating with PICkit and various onboard (demo board) things.  The tool is open and in active development:
https://github.com/microchip-pic-avr-tools/pymcuprog
It was a bit of hair-pulling figuring out which tool to use (conclusion: pyupdi shows up first in searches, but it was more of a demo, with pymcuprog being the integrated and well maintained package; well, the documentation wasn't the best, but it's improving).

Tim
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Offline Simon

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Re: Why do people not like Microchip?
« Reply #230 on: November 21, 2021, 09:35:58 pm »


AVR-DA is 24MHz (48MHz PLL for TCD only) over the full 1.8-5.5V range, at least, as near as I can tell.  Interesting that it isn't dependent, or at least I've just not been able to spot the curve; it's a big datasheet.




I think full speed is down to 3V not 1.8V, there are two variants although for the life of me I don't get it, one proclaims to be for analogue integration yet both seem quite similar. One is more explicit about 24MHz at 3-5V, the other is just vague but I assume the same as they are out of the "same bag".
 

Offline rpiloverbd

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Re: Why do people not like Microchip?
« Reply #231 on: December 05, 2021, 11:41:16 am »
I have no such utter disliking . But I find arduino boards and AVR Microcontrollers (Despite the fact that  microchip has taken over Atmel) more user friendly.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Why do people not like Microchip?
« Reply #232 on: December 05, 2021, 03:19:37 pm »
Atmel set out with the AVR to appeal to the smallest entity by being the first to make the tools easy, accessible and cheap if not free in the case of the IDE. Microchip are still flogging the dead horse of selling code optimization licences in an age where one just buys a bigger chip or does not use their shit free compiler that is so lame and finds something else.

Different companies do give different vibes. STM for example seem to make a point of trumping everyone on price but hen having read some of their lawyer authored "data sheets" that seek to not tell more than they tell I would not touch anything of theirs unless my volumes where so high that the added hours were worth it. Then I wonder why the subcontractor that produced a design for my employer before I joined used a 72MHz MCU and 2 external ADC's despite the MCU containing an ADC. Granted that for the intended volume lots of time spent on it would have been a waste of money but you would think that it would be natural to use the ADC built into the STM, or maybe they came with so many caveats that it was not worth spending 10x the time picking through the detail to find out what you were dealing with.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Why do people not like Microchip?
« Reply #233 on: December 05, 2021, 03:22:24 pm »
Probably the reason is much more simple: the performance of the integrated ADC likely wasn't good enough for the application. x bits of resolution doesn't always mean getting x bits resolution and / or accuracy.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Why do people not like Microchip?
« Reply #234 on: December 05, 2021, 03:26:25 pm »
Probably the reason is much more simple: the performance of the integrated ADC likely wasn't good enough for the application. x bits of resolution doesn't always mean getting x bits resolution and / or accuracy.

reading a potentiometer in 1% steps is something the AVR ADC could do. So 2 potentiometers - 2 external ADC's at £1 each.
 

Offline glenenglish

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Re: Why do people not like Microchip?
« Reply #235 on: December 06, 2021, 05:06:15 am »
PICs are old microarchitecture crap from the 70s. they are junk.
dsPIC33 are excellent  (and nothing like PICs). they are a REAL DSP. excellent

AVR are probably the finest 8 bits micros ever made
AVR-DA is pretty much the same, refreshed architecture  with some refreshed peripherals and memory options.  The LUT block is curious.
Use Codevision for writing for AVR.

I went to STM32 in 2012, after 12 years with AVR. I've been hopping around again now with microcontroller shortages, back using AVR-DA, refreshing price for simple jobs compared to the smallest STM. The LPC800 series from NXP are a useful basic CPU, c heap and peripgeral rich  option , also.

Started writing Z80 in 1979..
 
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Offline woofy

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Re: Why do people not like Microchip?
« Reply #236 on: December 06, 2021, 09:04:09 am »
PICs are old microarchitecture crap from the 70s. they are junk.

A lot of cpu's and controllers from the 70's have gone the way of the Dodo. PIC's are not only still with us they are flourishing, made and sold in huge numbers.
Maybe there is a reason for that, one that goes beyond an architecture that does not matter when programming in C.

Offline Simon

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Re: Why do people not like Microchip?
« Reply #237 on: December 06, 2021, 12:58:04 pm »
PICs are old microarchitecture crap from the 70s. they are junk.

A lot of cpu's and controllers from the 70's have gone the way of the Dodo. PIC's are not only still with us they are flourishing, made and sold in huge numbers.
Maybe there is a reason for that, one that goes beyond an architecture that does not matter when programming in C.

PIC's are still used because they have been used before. It's easy for one decision made in the past for one reason to haunt a project, person, company, whatever for decade's to come. People will use what they think everyone else is, guess why atmel were so liberal when they started, they needed to gain mass adoption. If people already have code for a PIC they will not necessarily move to another device to start all over unless there is a good reason to as it's effort and reward. The simple answer is PIC got there first, but it was overtaken to such an extent or at least microchip were that they bought atmel which meant they had the power to unleash the AVR architecture or bury it forever, the choice they made is very telling and of course it got them into ARM devices.
 

Offline Codemonkey

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Re: Why do people not like Microchip?
« Reply #238 on: January 07, 2022, 04:18:41 pm »
Atmel set out with the AVR to appeal to the smallest entity by being the first to make the tools easy, accessible and cheap if not free in the case of the IDE.

I remember attending one of the first AVR seminars in the 90's when the AVR line was launched. They gave you a free eval board (STK200 with an AT90S1200) included in the price of the seminar. If you wanted to use C, you were expected to pay £££ for  the IAR compiler.

I recall the seminar costing about the same as the ST eval board I had already been using for ST62T10 parts which was less than £100 from RS components, so at the time it wasn't really any more accessible or cheaper than the competition.

Things only got better for hobbyists when WinAVR got released with its port of gcc in the early 2000's, and i'm not even sure that was anything to do with any Atmel staff. The Arduino stuff all came later still.

Their biggest selling feature (and the reason they took off so well) was that they were totally FLASH based at a time when most competitors like PIC etc were either EPROM or OTP so development was much faster.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Why do people not like Microchip?
« Reply #239 on: January 07, 2022, 06:30:24 pm »
Good lord.

The PIC line of MCUs is one of the largest with a lot of configurations, packages and whatnot, while having reasonably good documentation and performance (when they meet your requirements).
And "PIC" doesn't mean anything. There are hundreds of references of PIC MCUs with several completely different architectures, from 8- to 32-bit. As we said before, another plus is that they have a large number of parts that can operate up to 150°C, which is not that common with other vendors. So, still a number of reasons for using them.

And for those who have missed what has happened at Microchip over the last 25 or 30 years, maybe they should have a look. Just saying. So why does it have to turn into a PIC vs AVR war? This "war", if there was ever any, is long over. While the AVR parts are still used a lot in the "hobbyist community", I see them very rarely used in commercial products these days, while the PIC (in all forms again from 8- to 32-bit) are.

Oh, and the PIC MCUs have been flashed-based for over 25 years now, and, as I said, over the years, with various architectures. You'd need to go back to 25+ years to make all this discussion relevant. It is of no relevance in 2022.
 

Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Why do people not like Microchip?
« Reply #240 on: January 07, 2022, 07:14:13 pm »
While the AVR parts are still used a lot in the "hobbyist community", I see them very rarely used in commercial products these days, while the PIC (in all forms again from 8- to 32-bit) are.

I think AVRs were never even remotely popular in commercial or industrial products. The market share just never was there. Thanks to the hobbyist and university appeal, maybe there was a short period of time of these hobbyists/students graduating, getting professional, and designing in an AVR, but this became an eyeblink (maybe around 2006-2007) in books of history, because said professionals then went on to more affordable and capable ARM MCUs. Arduino really saved the day for AVR, continuing that hobbyist appeal for the next generation of hobbyists. But the difference is, Arduino hobbyists either stay Arduino hobbyists, or become professionals who design in an ARM. They won't magically change into AVR-loving professionals, it makes no sense. So commercially, it was game over. For PIC product families OTOH, the "traditional" professional use that have lasted for decades, is still here to some extent.

Quote
You'd need to go back to 25+ years to make all this discussion relevant. It is of no relevance in 2022.
Yes, but now it's an interesting historical curiosity, which is also easier to discuss because fanboyism in long over, and former fanboys of either camp can come together and laugh at their past selves.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Why do people not like Microchip?
« Reply #241 on: January 07, 2022, 07:22:57 pm »
Quote
You'd need to go back to 25+ years to make all this discussion relevant. It is of no relevance in 2022.
Yes, but now it's an interesting historical curiosity, which is also easier to discuss because fanboyism in long over, and former fanboys of either camp can come together and laugh at their past selves.

You really think it's over? I'm not completely sure, reading discussions about this on various forums. =)
 

Offline AaronD

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Re: Why do people not like Microchip?
« Reply #242 on: January 07, 2022, 07:47:39 pm »
Quote
You'd need to go back to 25+ years to make all this discussion relevant. It is of no relevance in 2022.
Yes, but now it's an interesting historical curiosity, which is also easier to discuss because fanboyism in long over, and former fanboys of either camp can come together and laugh at their past selves.

You really think it's over? I'm not completely sure, reading discussions about this on various forums. =)

I would LOVE to see the AVR's GCC-friendly architecture and loads of memory, paired with the PIC's vast array of flexible peripherals!  If we can just get that, I think we'll be set...
(oh, but of course then they couldn't sell their expensive compiler...)
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Why do people not like Microchip?
« Reply #243 on: January 07, 2022, 08:21:26 pm »

I remember attending one of the first AVR seminars in the 90's when the AVR line was launched. They gave you a free eval board (STK200 with an AT90S1200) included in the price of the seminar. If you wanted to use C, you were expected to pay £££ for  the IAR compiler.

I recall the seminar costing about the same as the ST eval board I had already been using for ST62T10 parts which was less than £100 from RS components, so at the time it wasn't really any more accessible or cheaper than the competition.


You got the seminar and the board, how was the board not cheaper? seminars cost money you know.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Why do people not like Microchip?
« Reply #244 on: January 07, 2022, 08:52:43 pm »
.

And for those who have missed what has happened at Microchip over the last 25 or 30 years, maybe they should have a look. Just saying. So why does it have to turn into a PIC vs AVR war? This "war", if there was ever any, is long over. While the AVR parts are still used a lot in the "hobbyist community", I see them very rarely used in commercial products these days, while the PIC (in all forms again from 8- to 32-bit) are.

Oh, and the PIC MCUs have been flashed-based for over 25 years now, and, as I said, over the years, with various architectures. You'd need to go back to 25+ years to make all this discussion relevant. It is of no relevance in 2022.


i think by PIC most people mean the 8 bit range when comparing to AVR that is only 8 bit. There are AVR's that will do 150C, most in fact. i have used an automotive 150C rated atmega168 which is the same as the arduino uno part, I'm sure the 328 was also available in automotive. For some reason the automotive were always a section of their own never mentioned in polite company but when you find them it's like "why the hell didn't they just list the 150C rated parts as part of the 0-70, 20-85 and -40-125"

But then Atmel were not terrific at marketing, yes the arduino saved the AVR, another happy accident along with someone choosing to port a free compiler, I doubt it had much to do with atmel but the gcc compiler that comes with atmel is the atmel tool chain, NOT the one you will download as avr-gcc, they did make changes themselves.

As for the PIC/AVR war, meh, I'm not one for spending hours fretting over arguing about one versus the other. I'm just pointing out why one is not dying out. Microchip bought Atmel, and has made very clear they don't want to kill the AVR, quite the opposite. 3 new lines of AVR have been released.

At first microchip made the same pathetic ballsup they made with PIC and started to call it all one name even though the parts were quite different so the atmega 0 series just get confused in google with all other atmega's that are completely different beats as the 0 series is if anythintg the xmega.

They seem to have finally learnt with the new AVR DA and DB series although not quite.
 

Online NorthGuy

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Re: Why do people not like Microchip?
« Reply #245 on: January 07, 2022, 10:16:43 pm »
At first microchip made the same pathetic ballsup they made with PIC and started to call it all one name even though the parts were quite different ...

They also renamed new variants of Atmel's ATSAM chips to PIC32CM  :palm:
 

Offline Sal Ammoniac

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Re: Why do people not like Microchip?
« Reply #246 on: January 07, 2022, 10:43:06 pm »
PICs are old microarchitecture crap from the 70s. they are junk.
dsPIC33 are excellent  (and nothing like PICs). they are a REAL DSP. excellent

There's also the PIC32, which isn't based on the 8-bit PIC either, but rather on the MIPS architecture. They're capable parts, if mostly overshadowed by the juggernaut of ARM Cortex-M parts.
Complexity is the number-one enemy of high-quality code.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Why do people not like Microchip?
« Reply #247 on: January 08, 2022, 08:12:34 am »
basically both microchip and atmel are shit at marketing, atmel gave the same thing too many names and microchip call different things the same name. No I would never go looking for an ARM based part called PIC, what a bunch of useless tossers!
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Why do people not like Microchip?
« Reply #248 on: January 08, 2022, 10:24:18 am »
I would LOVE to see the AVR's GCC-friendly architecture and loads of memory, paired with the PIC's vast array of flexible peripherals!  If we can just get that, I think we'll be set...
(oh, but of course then they couldn't sell their expensive compiler...)

Mega-0 and AVR-DA are absolutely bristling with peripherals.  I'm not too familiar with what special things PICs have, but they may be on par now, give it a look.

Tim
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Offline Kleinstein

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Re: Why do people not like Microchip?
« Reply #249 on: January 08, 2022, 11:59:32 am »

At first microchip made the same pathetic ballsup they made with PIC and started to call it all one name even though the parts were quite different so the atmega 0 series just get confused in google with all other atmega's that are completely different beats as the 0 series is if anythintg the xmega.

They seem to have finally learnt with the new AVR DA and DB series although not quite.
Atmega 0 series and AVR DA, DB are essentially slightly newer version of the Xmega. So the principle part was already there before they were bought by Microchip.  The CPU is only slightly improved. The main difference is in the periphery including the event system.


I would LOVE to see the AVR's GCC-friendly architecture and loads of memory, paired with the PIC's vast array of flexible peripherals!  If we can just get that, I think we'll be set...
With the AVR CPU the memory access beyound 128 kB is tricky and no longer easy for the compiler. If you want lot's of memory, this aera is already lost the ARM based µCs. The 8 bit µCs are made for the small jobs - like those 90% that get away with 16 kB or less.
 


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