Buying a router or making one with X86 computer

[madires]

However my APU also runs other things - such as the web front end to my mail server - and long term the intent is to move some other stuff onto an APU such as the email server itself. Largely because an APU2/3/4 will run for hours off a cheap 12V "UPS" and we get power outages here which are longer than my APC UPS will bridge about two or three times a year.

I see. So you're looking for a mini-server/router combo. I've looked into that solution some years ago but suitable mini PCs had a poor price-performance ratio and limited expandability. I went for a less expensive and more flexible path, i.e. a PC with low power consumption plus SOHO router. And after running that setup for years I'm still happy with it. Finding the best solution can be challenging when you have special requirements.

[grumpydoc]

I've looked into that solution some years ago but suitable mini PCs had a poor price-performance ratio and limited expandability. I went for a less expensive and more flexible path, i.e. a PC with low power consumption plus SOHO router. And after running that setup for years I'm still happy with it. Finding the best solution can be challenging when you have special requirements.

There's a lot to be said for "what works for you" of course - at  the moment the mail server runs in a VM but there are definite advantages to moving it to a dedicated low power box.

I think the whole "small compact PC" market has opened up a lot in the last few years, so there's a good bit more hardware available and at decent prices.

It doesn't alter the fact that I'm a big fan of the APU boards - nothing quite beats their combination of tiny footprint, low power, relatively low price, ready availability, expandability, ECC support and openness - individual platforms can address some of these points but not usually all.

[Monkeh]

Personally, I'm using a Haswell era Dell SFF PC as a router, running OpnSense. It's fairly low power (I think about 15W idle? been a while), has ample performance, and a PCIe slot to stuff a proper NIC in. Put a 4590T in it to get the power down, and replaced the PSU with a custom board to run off a 12V supply directly instead of mains.

Can easily put 32G of RAM in, multiple SSDs, wifi if one really must put it in the wrong place..

[David Hess]

An MT7986AV based router with OpenWrt:

Having tried OpenWrt, I have no interest in it at all.

The only thing I am missing now with OPNsense and pfSense is getting an OpenVPN or Wireguard tunnel to terminate properly at the router.  Then source routing could direct specific traffic to specific VPNs.

However my APU also runs other things - such as the web front end to my mail server - and long term the intent is to move some other stuff onto an APU such as the email server itself. Largely because an APU2/3/4 will run for hours off a cheap 12V "UPS" and we get power outages here which are longer than my APC UPS will bridge about two or three times a year.

I see. So you're looking for a mini-server/router combo. I've looked into that solution some years ago but suitable mini PCs had a poor price-performance ratio and limited expandability. I went for a less expensive and more flexible path, i.e. a PC with low power consumption plus SOHO router. And after running that setup for years I'm still happy with it. Finding the best solution can be challenging when you have special requirements.

That is what I have done for decades, first with an obsolete PC as a router, and only in the past few years with an APU2 as my router.  If I cannot find a replacement for the APU2, then I will likely go back to using a PC as a router, but perhaps virtualized so the same PC can also operate as a server.

[grumpydoc]

Having tried OpenWrt, I have no interest in it at all.

I guess it's a case of "what one is used to" but I never "got into" pfSense or OPNsense so normally run OpenWRT on boxes which act as infrastructure within my network.

[David Hess]

Having tried OpenWrt, I have no interest in it at all.

I guess it's a case of "what one is used to" but I never "got into" pfSense or OPNsense so normally run OpenWRT on boxes which act as infrastructure within my network.

No, it was a problem with supported x86 hardware and installation problems.  It was too difficult to get it running.

[grumpydoc]

No, it was a problem with supported x86 hardware and installation problems.  It was too difficult to get it running.

Yeah - I wasn't saying you're non-use was because you were used to something else and didn't want to try OpenWRT - I was saying my use was because I'm used to OpenWRT and it generally suits my needs so i stick with it. Apologies if that wasn't clear.

It works OK on x86, but I agree the experience - especially update - is not as polished as on the dedicated router platforms.

[grumpydoc]

Acquired a Banana Pi R4 to evaluate, then spotted a very cheap development pack on eBay including the WiFi board so will wind up with two when that arrives - slightly different variants as one is the version with two SFP ports and one is the version with 1x SFP and 1x 2.5GbE.

It's cute, half the size of the APU - haven't had time to power it up yet.

But my first thought was that David would prefer pfSense/OPNsense and if he is at all interested in the R4 as a platform he will no doubt be disappointed to learn that it does not seem to have a FreeBSD port yet.

Might do a mini-review if I have time.

[bte]

Code: [Select]

PS C:\WINDOWS\system32> Get-WmiObject Win32_PhysicalMemory | Format-Table DataWidth, TotalWidth

DataWidth TotalWidth
--------- ----------
       64         72
       64         72

PS C:\WINDOWS\system32> wmic MemPhysical get MemoryErrorCorrection
MemoryErrorCorrection
6
Value    Meaning
0 (0x0)    Reserved
1 (0x1)    Other
2 (0x2)    Unknown
3 (0x3)    None
4 (0x4)    Parity
5 (0x5)    Single-bit ECC
6 (0x6)    Multi-bit ECC
7 (0x7)    CRC

Could you check whether multi-bit ECC is actually in use? AIDA64, for example, would show that. I attached a picture from my desktop machine (FX-8320e CPU).

[David Hess]

Code: [Select]

PS C:\WINDOWS\system32> Get-WmiObject Win32_PhysicalMemory | Format-Table DataWidth, TotalWidth

DataWidth TotalWidth
--------- ----------
       64         72
       64         72

PS C:\WINDOWS\system32> wmic MemPhysical get MemoryErrorCorrection
MemoryErrorCorrection
6
Value    Meaning
0 (0x0)    Reserved
1 (0x1)    Other
2 (0x2)    Unknown
3 (0x3)    None
4 (0x4)    Parity
5 (0x5)    Single-bit ECC
6 (0x6)    Multi-bit ECC
7 (0x7)    CRC

Could you check whether multi-bit ECC is actually in use? AIDA64, for example, would show that. I attached a picture from my desktop machine (FX-8320e CPU).

What I showed *is* the test.  The operating system recognizes it and is operating with it enabled.

I assume multi-bit refers to double bit error detect and not chipkill, which does not make sense with 64/72 bit channels.  Unlike my Phenom 2 BIOS, this one does not allow a lot of ECC configuration, at least in the revision I have installed.

My APU2 router has ECC also but I am not sure how to verify its operation.

[grumpydoc]

My APU2 router has ECC also but I am not sure how to verify its operation.

I'm pretty certain that the 4G models are ECC and the 2G models not.

[BadeBhaiya]

Since we are on the topic of DIY routers, what do you guys use for WiFi networking? Do you buy off the shelf WiFi routers and use them in AP mode, or a lot of those cheap 802.11 USB dongles or PCIe cards which can do WiFi?

[David Hess]

My APU2 router has ECC also but I am not sure how to verify its operation.

I'm pretty certain that the 4G models are ECC and the 2G models not.

It has the 5th DRAM chip, but I am not sure how to verify that the BIOS and FreeBSD are using ECC.

Since we are on the topic of DIY routers, what do you guys use for WiFi networking? Do you buy off the shelf WiFi routers and use them in AP mode, or a lot of those cheap 802.11 USB dongles or PCIe cards which can do WiFi?

I use locally hosted Ubiquiti UniFi, but also have some of their older Nanostation M 802.11n gear which can operate as a station or client.

[madires]

Since we are on the topic of DIY routers, what do you guys use for WiFi networking? Do you buy off the shelf WiFi routers and use them in AP mode, or a lot of those cheap 802.11 USB dongles or PCIe cards which can do WiFi?

Old WiFi router or AP running OpenWrt - flexible, cost effective, and easy to replace.

[grumpydoc]

It has the 5th DRAM chip, but I am not sure how to verify that the BIOS and FreeBSD are using ECC.

In Linux use dmidecode (BIOS v4.9.0.3 and later).


# dmidecode
[...]
Handle 0x0009, DMI type 16, 23 bytes
Physical Memory Array
   Location: System Board Or Motherboard
   Use: System Memory
   Error Correction Type: Multi-bit ECC
   Maximum Capacity: 4 GB
   Error Information Handle: Not Provided
   Number Of Devices: 1

Handle 0x000A, DMI type 17, 40 bytes
Memory Device
   Array Handle: 0x0009
   Error Information Handle: Not Provided
   Total Width: 72 bits
   Data Width: 64 bits
   Size: 4 GB
   Form Factor: SODIMM
   Set: None
   Locator: DIMM 0
   Bank Locator: CHANNEL A
   Type: DDR3
   Type Detail: Synchronous Unbuffered (Unregistered)
   Speed: 1333 MT/s
   Manufacturer: Not Specified
   Serial Number: 00000000
   Asset Tag: Not Specified
   Part Number: Not Specified
   Rank: 1
   Configured Memory Speed: 1333 MT/s
   Minimum Voltage: 1.5 V
   Maximum Voltage: 1.5 V
   Configured Voltage: Unknown
[...]


Do the *BSDs have dmidecode or equivalent for displaying the SMBIOS tables?

[Hogwild]

If you want something with a very user-friendly and intuitive interface for consumer-grade routers, you might consider FreshTomato:

www.freshtomato.org

Very easy, intuitive interface, and quite feature-rich.


For PC hardware, there's also an x64 fork of it called Tomato64:

www.tomato64.org

[grumpydoc]

FreshTomato:

Blast from the past time- I remember the original Tomato firmware.

Nice to see it is still being worked on.