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At home I am presently using a router TP-Link TL-WR841N with OpenWRT.
It does what I need but it does not have enough flash memory to do more, like install OpenVPN
TP-Link TL-WR841N
CPU: Qualcomm Atheros QCA9533-AL3A, Cores: 1, f= 550Mhz
Flash MB: 4
RAM MB: 32
Ethernet 100M ports: 5
So, mainly for the purpose of playing, learning and improving my setup I would like to start building a new router with greater capabilities..
1- Buying a router
One way would be to get a better router HW. I have a crate full of routers but most are just too old for OpenWRT and many are Chinese and undocumented. You would think Chinese routers would basically be the same board with different firmware but it seems this is not the case. So it seems buying a new router with more flash and ram would be the way to go.
I went to the OpenWRT page to see what routers might work and I immediately got lost in the deluge of models. Also I get the impression now they come with plug-in ram rather than on-board. This is getting complicated.
https://openwrt.org/toh/views/toh_available_16128
They recommend
- 16MB Flash will provide for bare minimum installed packages. Devices with more storage is recommended.
- 128MB RAM will provide for minimal functionality. Devices with more RAM is recommended.
So the first question is if you can recommend a router suitable for OpenWRT. I am guessing something similar to what I have, 5 Ethernet ports, WiFi, but more memory, say 16 or 32 MB flash and 128 or 256 MB RAM. Probably this should be available second hand at a good low price or maybe free. Can you recommend a model?
2- Building a router with an X86 computer box.
I guess this is another option as I already have some computers available. But it seems installing OpenWRT is very complicated. Very. I would like a solution of the type where you can burn an ISO to a USB drive and run it from there without further complications. But from what I gather it requires complicated installation and, frankly I do not want to spend the effort and frustration.
https://openwrt.org/docs/guide-developer/uefi-bootable-image
There is RouterOS from Mikrotik which can be run live on an X86 machine but it is for pay. Or I can buy one of their router which includes it. But if I can I would rather stay with OpenWRT because I am already familiar with it.
- Conclusion
The way I see it the ideal solution would be to find a router box where I can install OpenWRT or, better still, that comes with OpenWRT installed.
The next best option would be to find a *really* simple way of installing OpenWRT on a computer drive.
If none of these are possible I'll probably do nothing and leave things as they are.
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You can install OpenWRT on PC. Another choice could be PFSense (It's FreeBSD based instead of Linux).
Ethernet should be Intel, not Realtek.
Avoid Mikrotik - it has bad interface and violates GPL. -
Or ... a router with an amd-geode (x86 32bit compatible) made by Soekris.
I am working on it
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Avoid Mikrotik - it has bad interface and violates GPL.
Their routers - as far as I tried - have a lot of quirks with the Linux kernel.
I am still fighting against them on a couple of their MIPS routers. -
Maybe a used TP-Link Archer A7 v5 (https://openwrt.org/toh/tp-link/archer_a7_v5) or TP-Link Archer C7 (https://openwrt.org/toh/tp-link/archer_c7), both at the low end of HW specs (sufficient for VDSL throughput). Or if you want something more future-proof look for routers with MT7986AV, e.g. GL.iNet GL-MT6000 (https://openwrt.org/toh/gl.inet/gl-mt6000), meant to handle FTTH throughput.
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A PC uses quite a bit more power than a router.
Depending on your electricity prices, in the long run it may be cheaper to get a router. -
Maybe a used TP-Link Archer A7 v5 (https://openwrt.org/toh/tp-link/archer_a7_v5) or TP-Link Archer C7 (https://openwrt.org/toh/tp-link/archer_c7), both at the low end of HW specs (sufficient for VDSL throughput). Or if you want something more future-proof look for routers with MT7986AV, e.g. GL.iNet GL-MT6000 (https://openwrt.org/toh/gl.inet/gl-mt6000), meant to handle FTTH throughput.
Thanks. That was very useful. The GL-MT6000 is way beyond what I want to spend so I searched eBay for Archer and I bought a TP-Link AC1750 Archer A7 for $15. I hope to install OpenWRT and get to tinker and play. Its capabilities, speed, etc are much above my needs and I just need enough flash memory to play around with the firmware. -
AFAIK A7 is Amazon exclusive C7 variant. And C7 had hell a lot of HW revisions, not all of which were OpenWRT friendly.Maybe a used TP-Link Archer A7 v5 (https://openwrt.org/toh/tp-link/archer_a7_v5) or TP-Link Archer C7 (https://openwrt.org/toh/tp-link/archer_c7), both at the low end of HW specs (sufficient for VDSL throughput). Or if you want something more future-proof look for routers with MT7986AV, e.g. GL.iNet GL-MT6000 (https://openwrt.org/toh/gl.inet/gl-mt6000), meant to handle FTTH throughput.
Thanks. That was very useful. The GL-MT6000 is way beyond what I want to spend so I searched eBay for Archer and I bought a TP-Link AC1750 Archer A7 for $15. I hope to install OpenWRT and get to tinker and play. Its capabilities, speed, etc are much above my needs and I just need enough flash memory to play around with the firmware. -
Or ... a router with an amd-geode (x86 32bit compatible) made by Soekris.
Hasn't the geode been discontinued for a long time now?
I have a PC Engines APU2 which uses the AMD GX-412TC and they were discontinued not long ago so this excellent x86 router is no longer produces, although some models are still available.
Something like the APU2 is excellent, especially for the price, but it could be replaced by any PC for at least testing purposes.A PC uses quite a bit more power than a router.
Depending on your electricity prices, in the long run it may be cheaper to get a router.
The PC Engines x86 routers draw about 10 watts at full load.
There are x86 motherboards built using laptop chips available, and newer motherboard BIOSes allow limiting CPU power and operating in lower power modes.
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For my router/firewall, I'm using a Protectli Vault FW4b, a nice small low-power fanless x86 computer with four ethernet ports. It's available with various combinations of RAM and SSD. Mine has 8G RAM and 120G SSD, but in hindsight, 4G RAM and 32G SSD would have been more than enough. I've installed OPNSense software on it, which gives excellent control and visibility to set it up for multiple VLANs, with firewall rules to do whatever I want. I'm using a Unifi U6 for my home's WiFi -- it's centrally mounted in the ceiling of a hallway. If you're in this deep, you'll probably want an additional network switch to provide enough network ports for all the gadgets you probably have.
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For my router/firewall, I'm using a Protectli Vault FW4b, a nice small low-power fanless x86 computer with four ethernet ports. It's available with various combinations of RAM and SSD. Mine has 8G RAM and 120G SSD, but in hindsight, 4G RAM and 32G SSD would have been more than enough. I've installed OPNSense software on it, which gives excellent control and visibility to set it up for multiple VLANs, with firewall rules to do whatever I want. I'm using a Unifi U6 for my home's WiFi -- it's centrally mounted in the ceiling of a hallway. If you're in this deep, you'll probably want an additional network switch to provide enough network ports for all the gadgets you probably have.
Thanks, it's nice but it ain't cheap. -
As I said, I bought a router and will be installing OpenWRT when I get it. Mostly for entertainment.
Still, I have X86_64 computers available and it would be nice to be able to run OpenWRT but the installation process I see is very complicated. Isn't there a simple way of installing and running Open WRT in a computer with no OS or with Linux? -
AFAIK A7 is Amazon exclusive C7 variant. And C7 had hell a lot of HW revisions, not all of which were OpenWRT friendly.
TP-Link has numerous versions of almost anything they've been making for a while. Their volumes are so big I guess they easily justify the NRE to achieve even a small reduction in RE. Its kinda funky going to their web site to see if there are firmware updates available, and finding up to 10 hardware versions, each with their own firmware version. -
Later HW C5/C7 web interface does not even look anything like earlier ones, and have 1 USB port instead of 2. BTW I bought C5 in 2015 and flashed C7 firmware into it . Edited its model in firmware to flash C7 firmware through the web interface to keep original wifi config data, serial, MAC as they have exactly the same HW but C5 is artificially limited.AFAIK A7 is Amazon exclusive C7 variant. And C7 had hell a lot of HW revisions, not all of which were OpenWRT friendly.
TP-Link has numerous versions of almost anything they've been making for a while. Their volumes are so big I guess they easily justify the NRE to achieve even a small reduction in RE. Its kinda funky going to their web site to see if there are firmware updates available, and finding up to 10 hardware versions, each with their own firmware version. -
For my router/firewall, I'm using a Protectli Vault FW4b, a nice small low-power fanless x86 computer with four ethernet ports. It's available with various combinations of RAM and SSD. Mine has 8G RAM and 120G SSD, but in hindsight, 4G RAM and 32G SSD would have been more than enough. I've installed OPNSense software on it, which gives excellent control and visibility to set it up for multiple VLANs, with firewall rules to do whatever I want. I'm using a Unifi U6 for my home's WiFi -- it's centrally mounted in the ceiling of a hallway. If you're in this deep, you'll probably want an additional network switch to provide enough network ports for all the gadgets you probably have.
Thanks, it's nice but it ain't cheap.
PC Engines was only a little less expensive so it seems reasonable. There are cheaper Chinese solutions if that is what you are looking for.
I am still looking for a replacement for the APU2 from PC Engines. There are none so my next router will likely be a desktop board configured for lowest possible power.
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I am still looking for a replacement for the APU2 from PC Engines. There are none so my next router will likely be a desktop board configured for lowest possible power.
Did you ever find something that you were happy with?
I must admit I have struggled - the APU2 (and minor variants the 3, 4 and 6) were among the best small, low power but decent performance SBCs and with three Mini-PCIe ports very flexible for building small routers and WiFi APs or 3/4/5G routers with the added bonus of a completely open source software stack and availability of schematics.
I bought one of these mini PC's with 4x 2.5GbE which are OK - but they run hot (some mitigation is possible tweaking power limits in the BIOS)
Apart from the power consumption there is, of course, no schematics, it's very questionable if any BIOS update would ever appear and only one MiniPCIe slot
Other possibilities often suggested are the Broachlink Noah boards - haven't acquired one to tinker with yet but the cases aren't as nice (close, I admit but the PC Engines cases definitely win the good looks competition) and the BIOS and schematics remain proprietary.
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I am still looking for a replacement for the APU2 from PC Engines. There are none so my next router will likely be a desktop board configured for lowest possible power.
Did you ever find something that you were happy with?
No, I have not found anything to replace the APU2, at least for not less than 5 times the price, if that.
The most likely outcome is that when I replace my mini-tower Ryzen 3100, it becomes a router with the BIOS configured to limit the CPU power.Code: [Select]PS C:\WINDOWS\system32> Get-WmiObject Win32_PhysicalMemory | Format-Table DataWidth, TotalWidth
DataWidth TotalWidth
--------- ----------
64 72
64 72
PS C:\WINDOWS\system32> wmic MemPhysical get MemoryErrorCorrection
MemoryErrorCorrection
6
Value Meaning
0 (0x0) Reserved
1 (0x1) Other
2 (0x2) Unknown
3 (0x3) None
4 (0x4) Parity
5 (0x5) Single-bit ECC
6 (0x6) Multi-bit ECC
7 (0x7) CRC
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No, I have not found anything to replace the APU2, at least for not less than 5 times the price, if that.
I'd be interested to know what boards you considered and why you rejected them.
In the UK LinItx still has stock of the APU4D4 at £210 inc VAT (so about $230-235 without sales tax). In the US mini-box.com still seems to have stock of the APU2E4 and APU4D4 at $229 (exclusive of sales tax, presumably)
Over on Aliexpress a bare bones (no RAM, no storage) N5105 based mini-PC with 4x 2.5GbE is £96.52/$125 shipped, taxes/tariffs on top (so 20% VAT into the UK, who knows what into the US).
Rack-matrix.com has the Noah 4 (1.9GHz Intel E3845, 4x GbE, 1x mSATA and 2x MiniPCIe) for $162.23 exclusive, the Noah 5 for the same money ($171.84 for the version with TPM) or the Noah 6 at $212.39
Another board which is suggested as a replacement is the Banana Pi BPI-R4 - this seems to be available starting around $135 from amazon.com
As I said none are exactly equivalent to the APU2 (or related GX-412TC based boards). the best replacement for an APU2 or 4 is still a new APU2 or 4 while stock lasts in the retail channel (I managed to score some unused APU3's for a good price on eBay recently) but there are definitely boards/systems which will replace the core functionality for about the same price if you look for them - just that nothing quite replaces everything the APU boards offer in a single package. -
No, I have not found anything to replace the APU2, at least for not less than 5 times the price, if that.
I'd be interested to know what boards you considered and why you rejected them.
In the UK LinItx still has stock of the APU4D4 at £210 inc VAT (so about $230-235 without sales tax). In the US mini-box.com still seems to have stock of the APU2E4 and APU4D4 at $229 (exclusive of sales tax, presumably)
The existing stock of APU boards will not last forever. I should pick one or two up while they are still available but money is tight.
Thanks for reminding me about https://www.mini-box.com/ALIX-boards.QuoteOver on Aliexpress a bare bones (no RAM, no storage) N5105 based mini-PC with 4x 2.5GbE is £96.52/$125 shipped, taxes/tariffs on top (so 20% VAT into the UK, who knows what into the US).
There are too many scams and rip-offs from China. Quality and support are horrendous.QuoteRack-matrix.com has the Noah 4 (1.9GHz Intel E3845, 4x GbE, 1x mSATA and 2x MiniPCIe) for $162.23 exclusive, the Noah 5 for the same money ($171.84 for the version with TPM) or the Noah 6 at $212.39
Intel still has objectionable market segmentation policies. Any system with an Intel processor which supports what my current APU2 supports is more than 5 times the price, at least based on what Netgate and others offer.QuoteAnother board which is suggested as a replacement is the Banana Pi BPI-R4 - this seems to be available starting around $135 from amazon.com
I do not really object to a non-x86 processor, but nothing available has sufficient memory and peripheral support, and ECC. The non-x86 environment is very fragmented.QuoteAs I said none are exactly equivalent to the APU2 (or related GX-412TC based boards). the best replacement for an APU2 or 4 is still a new APU2 or 4 while stock lasts in the retail channel (I managed to score some unused APU3's for a good price on eBay recently) but there are definitely boards/systems which will replace the core functionality for about the same price if you look for them - just that nothing quite replaces everything the APU boards offer in a single package.
A low power desktop can completely replace an APU2. The only question is how low can the power be pushed.
A more powerful but still low power desktop would also allow virtualization, perhaps making up for its higher power draw by encompassing other systems.
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Agree with your comments. Which is why I've gone for "stock up" (well, 2 spare boards and cases) as my main response to the boards going EoL.
There are too many scams and rip-offs from China. Quality and support are horrendous.
True, and I can't imagine it's easy or cheap to order from AliExpress in the US at the moment.
That said I have had good luck (and I suppose it is luck to an extent) and not been scammed when buying stuff - though support is non existent, as you say.
There are a plethora of devices and it is not always clear who the original manufacturer is, the one I have is labelled GF-1388NP-12 on the PCB, but identified as a "Techvision TVI7309X" in the SMBIOS data. Techvision might be badge engineering a board by Bluetech, or maybe not, who knows.
But, it works, it has a reasonable specification and although I mostly just use it for short term projects where it doesn't matter if it stops working.QuoteIntel still has objectionable market segmentation policies. Any system with an Intel processor which supports what my current APU2 supports is more than 5 times the price, at least based on what Netgate and others offer.
If ECC is on your must-have list yes, it's going to be expensive as you are probably looking at "industrial" SBCs (which always have ridiculous prices from a hobby perspective), a lot of the "router" boards are pricey as well, as you observe.
In the end we were a bit spoilt by the APU series being so flexible and such good value for money. They were showing their age performance wise but the BIOS update which enabled the 1.4GHz turbo manage to redress that a bit.
There was (apparently) an APU7 prototype with I225 NICs - that would have been interesting, especially if coupled with a slightly beefier processor such as the GX 420MC though a single lane of PCIe2 x1 might have struggled to keep up at 2.5Gb/s. I think that processor might even still be available.Quote
Nod, especially if you want ECC though how critical that is I'm not that clear.QuoteAnother board which is suggested as a replacement is the Banana Pi BPI-R4 - this seems to be available starting around $135 from amazon.com
I do not really object to a non-x86 processor, but nothing available has sufficient memory and peripheral support, and ECC. The non-x86 environment is very fragmented.QuoteA low power desktop can completely replace an APU2. The only question is how low can the power be pushed.
That's definitely a "how long is a piece of string" question - too many variables - CPU speed, number of cores, load, platform.
A more powerful but still low power desktop would also allow virtualization, perhaps making up for its higher power draw by encompassing other systems.
Using "powerstat" on my cheap Chinese toy (N5105 4 cores, 4 threads) gives an idle power draw of ~3W, just under 30W at 2.8GHz and 16W at 2.1Ghz where I have the long term power average set in the BIOS - that did need a bit of tweaking from the stock settings.
OTOH my desktop despite being a "low power" CPU (i7-12700T) idles at ~12W but readily shoots well over 100W with a bit of a load.
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True, and I can't imagine it's easy or cheap to order from AliExpress in the US at the moment.
I do not think that has been a problem yet for individual buyers, but it is not something which has affected my thinking yet.QuoteThat said I have had good luck (and I suppose it is luck to an extent) and not been scammed when buying stuff - though support is non existent, as you say.
There are a plethora of devices and it is not always clear who the original manufacturer is, the one I have is labelled GF-1388NP-12 on the PCB, but identified as a "Techvision TVI7309X" in the SMBIOS data. Techvision may or may not be badge engineering a board by Bluetech, or maybe not, who knows.
But, it works, it has a reasonable specification and although I mostly just use it for short term projects where it doesn't matter if it stops working.
Poor support includes no BIOS updates, no repeat sales because of product churn, etc.QuoteQuoteIntel still has objectionable market segmentation policies. Any system with an Intel processor which supports what my current APU2 supports is more than 5 times the price, at least based on what Netgate and others offer.
If ECC is on your must-have list yes, it's going to be expensive as you are probably looking at "industrial" SBCs (which always have ridiculous prices from a hobby perspective), a lot of the "router" boards are pricey as well, as you observe.
Even without ECC support, they are still more expensive. Maybe ECC support is negotiable, but since I can get it in a low power desktop without a premium, why would I do without it? My APU2 has ECC but I do not know if that was the case for all of them.QuoteIn the end we were a bit spoilt by the APU series being so flexible and such good value for money. They were showing their age performance wise but the BIOS update which enabled the 1.4GHz turbo manage to redress that a bit.
I will have to check that out. I have not updated the BIOS on mine since I bought it, mostly because it works and I do not want risk breaking it, although performance has not been a limitation.
I do not see anything about 1.4Ghz turbo in any release notes.QuoteQuoteA low power desktop can completely replace an APU2. The only question is how low can the power be pushed.
A more powerful but still low power desktop would also allow virtualization, perhaps making up for its higher power draw by encompassing other systems.
That's definitely a "how long is a piece of string" question - too many variables - CPU speed, number of cores, load, platform.
Using "powerstat" on my cheap Chinese toy (N5105 4 cores, 4 threads) gives an idle power draw of ~3W, just under 30W at 2.8GHz and 16W at 2.1Ghz where I have the long term power average set in the BIOS - that did need a bit of tweaking from the stock settings.
OTOH my desktop despite being a "low power" CPU (i7-12700T) idles at ~12W but readily shoots well over 100W with a bit of a load.
My 65 watt workstation and 15 watt nominal laptop, but configurable between 10 and 25 watts, have basically the same CPU. Common desktop motherboards now have considerable configurability with regard to CPU power.
12 volt, or even 6 to 24 volt power supplies are readily available to avoid using an ATX power supply. AMD Mini-ITX motherboards often support ECC, although a larger board with more than one PCIe slot will be needed to get more than 2 or 4 LAN ports on a NIC.
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An MT7986AV based router with OpenWrt:
- 3-4 W idle (incl WiFi)
- quad-core ARM, 2 GHz
- 1 GB RAM, 8 GB flash
- 4 1000BASE-T and two 2.5GBASE-T ports
- dual band WiFi
- about 160 bucks -
I will have to check that out. I have not updated the BIOS on mine since I bought it, mostly because it works and I do not want risk breaking it, although performance has not been a limitation.
I do not see anything about 1.4Ghz turbo in any release notes.
See: https://github.com/pcengines/apu2-documentation/blob/master/docs/apu_CPU_boost.md
Also https://pcengines.github.io/ and release notes for BIOS 4.9.03
v4.9.0.3
Release date: 2019-03-08- Fixed/added:
- rebased with official coreboot repository commit 7a732b4
- sortbootorder updated to v4.6.13 introducing CPU boost runtime configuration
- release firmware is now built with coreboot SDK 1.52
- configured pull-ups on WLAN_DISABLE# pins on the mPCIe connectors which could cause issues with certain modems when floating
- fixed microcode update option in menuconfig
- added information about ECC memory capability in SMBIOS tables on 4GB platforms
- added interrupt configuration entries for PCIe bridge devices 2.4 and 2.5
- reproducible builds limiation has been eliminated by setting fixed revisions for iPXE and Memtest86+.
My APU2 has ECC but I do not know if that was the case for all of them.
I think the 4G versions were ECC, certainly all the later revisions; as far as I know the 2G boards were not ECC at any point.
- Fixed/added:
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An MT7986AV based router with OpenWrt:
- 3-4 W idle (incl WiFi)
- quad-core ARM, 2 GHz
- 1 GB RAM, 8 GB flash
- 4 1000BASE-T and two 2.5GBASE-T ports
- dual band WiFi
- about 160 bucks
So OpenWRT One or Banana Pi BPI-R4 territory - yes, worth a look if you want to build a router - which, at the moment, I do and David has said that is his intention as well.
However my APU also runs other things - such as the web front end to my mail server - and long term the intent is to move some other stuff onto an APU such as the email server itself. Largely because an APU2/3/4 will run for hours off a cheap 12V "UPS" and we get power outages here which are longer than my APC UPS will bridge about two or three times a year.
The thing with the APU boards is they will just as happily run Fedora Server as they will OpenWRT -
I think it might be worth looking into used mini PCs (dell, lenovo, hp all make them). They are quite inexpensive and you can get a decent 8th gen or even better i3/i5 on them. Expandability leaves a bit to be desired, but as long as you're not doing anything too intensive, you should be fine
Also i would recommend going against ARM SBCs because they are usually general purpose, have terrible expandability and the ethernet PHy is usually not very fast