A competitor for the Rigol?

[EEVblog]

Still 100->125MS is a much smaller jump than the 40->100MS (is that right?) found in the Rigol.

Not really, because you can be pretty sure the 40MHz silicon is exactly the same as the 100MHz silicon. So if this if true, as most suspect it is, Rigol aren't actually overclocking, they are just being smart.
Instek on the other hand are definitely overclocking because 100MHz is the fasted speced part available.

Dave.

[NiHaoMike]

I wonder if the Instek could be upgraded to 150MHz. If so, it would be a clear winner.

[saturation]

That would be a coup.  I can't find out how someone figured out the Rigol 1052E firmware hack, its so specific that it suggests it might have been released by someone close to the company, insiders, authorized repairs etc., as its hard to imagine someone tried a series of trial and errors given you can brick the scope if you do it wrong.

Comparing prices, the 100MHz cost more per MHz than either then 60 or 150, ~$6.9/MHz versus $8.


GDS-1062A     60MHz 2-Channel Lightweight Digital Storage Oscilloscope with Color LCD Display
$415.00    
GDS-1102A    100MHz 2-Channel Lightweight Digital Storage Oscilloscope with Color LCD Display    
$805.86    
GDS-1152A    150MHz Digital Storage Oscilloscope with Color LCD Display\
$989.10    

 

I wonder if the Instek could be upgraded to 150MHz. If so, it would be a clear winner.

[NiHaoMike]

I'm sure the 60MHz version could be upgraded to 150MHz with less than 1/100th the cost difference. (And you'll need to replace the probes, which would cost more than the modification but still far less than the cost difference.)

[cybergibbons]

Not really, because you can be pretty sure the 40MHz silicon is exactly the same as the 100MHz silicon. So if this if true, as most suspect it is, Rigol aren't actually overclocking, they are just being smart.
Instek on the other hand are definitely overclocking because 100MHz is the fasted speced part available.

"Same as" doesn't mean they will perform the same though. It's like 10% resistors - if you assume that you can look though a box of 10% resistors to find one within 1% of rated value, you'll be disappointed. All the ones within 1% of rated value are in the box of 1% resistors somewhere, as they simply bin them by how close they are to rated value.

The same is true of ICs - they'll have been binned by frequency. So unless there is a huge market demand for 40MSPS ADCs, any that perform at 80MSPS will be sold as AD9288-80. But then when you look at the highest band, the AD9288-100, you don't have an upper cut off point. They will want a certain proportion of the output to yield 100MSPS parts, so it is fair to assume that a number of them will perform better than 100MSPS.

So overclocking a 40MSPS part to 100MSPS is almost certainly pushing it further than the manufacturer intended. Overclock a 100MSPS part and you're just taking advantage of them wanting a decent yield of 100MSPS parts.

I've seen this with FPGAs - the lower spec parts in a range won't clock faster than the part above them. But with over-volting you can get the top of the range part to go much much faster.

It also seems curious that Rigol feel the need to sand the tops of the ICs.

[NiHaoMike]

"Same as" doesn't mean they will perform the same though. It's like 10% resistors - if you assume that you can look though a box of 10% resistors to find one within 1% of rated value, you'll be disappointed. All the ones within 1% of rated value are in the box of 1% resistors somewhere, as they simply bin them by how close they are to rated value.

The same is true of ICs - they'll have been binned by frequency. So unless there is a huge market demand for 40MSPS ADCs, any that perform at 80MSPS will be sold as AD9288-80. But then when you look at the highest band, the AD9288-100, you don't have an upper cut off point. They will want a certain proportion of the output to yield 100MSPS parts, so it is fair to assume that a number of them will perform better than 100MSPS.

So overclocking a 40MSPS part to 100MSPS is almost certainly pushing it further than the manufacturer intended. Overclock a 100MSPS part and you're just taking advantage of them wanting a decent yield of 100MSPS parts.

I've seen this with FPGAs - the lower spec parts in a range won't clock faster than the part above them. But with over-volting you can get the top of the range part to go much much faster.

It also seems curious that Rigol feel the need to sand the tops of the ICs.

As the manufacturers fine tune the process, more and more parts would perform as the top model. Soon enough, almost all the parts would be top models, except a few with minor defects. They then "downgrade" most of them in order to sell them. (One of the main reasons why they would optimize the process even if low end models are mass market is because if a process yields a lot of those, there'll also be a significant number that couldn't even do that and are therefore worthless.)

There is a significant market for ADCs around the 40MHz range - CCD digitizers in cameras and analog component video inputs on LCD monitors and TVs, just to name a few.

Both Rigol and Instek probably do a lot of automated testing on the ADCs since they would have to match up 4 or 5 to use in one unit.

[ngkee22]

I was curious if we ever came to a group agreement that the Insket 1000A series oscilloscopes are the better buy?  After reading more about the Instek models, I am probably going to buy a 100Mhz or 150Mhz Instek soon.  I think that the Instek is better, but I wanted to see if everyone else has had a chance to read up on it any.

[EEVblog]

I was curious if we ever came to a group agreement that the Insket 1000A series oscilloscopes are the better buy?  After reading more about the Instek models, I am probably going to buy a 100Mhz or 150Mhz Instek soon.  I think that the Instek is better, but I wanted to see if everyone else has had a chance to read up on it any.

Based on the specs, and that Instek isn't a bad company, I think it has to be better value for money.

Dave.

[EEVblog]

Update:I was hoping to get the Instek for review, but that has fallen through. Instek are not interested in anyone (maybe just me) reviewing their scope.

Dave.

[ThunderSqueak]

Well you did get thousands of makers, hackers, and engineers to hack a rigol into a more expensive version :>  Maybe they are scared of you now.

That or they are scared you will take apart the scope and show some cut corners in its manufacture?  You do give an unbiased review, not every manufacturer likes that, especially when they have something to possibly hide.

oh and BTW, thanks for putting the first 13 episodes onto itunes

[EEVblog]

oh and BTW, thanks for putting the first 13 episodes onto itunes

I didn't do anything. No idea why they weren't there before and have only just appeared??

Dave.

[ThunderSqueak]

oh and BTW, thanks for putting the first 13 episodes onto itunes

I didn't do anything. No idea why they weren't there before and have only just appeared??

Dave.

Really? Weird, they showed up on my subscription to the podcast last friday.  Apple has been doing a lot of updates lately... 2 iphone updates in the last week!  Perhaps they changed something to "fix" it... like case sensetive issues? who knows :>

[DJPhil]

Update:I was hoping to get the Instek for review, but that has fallen through. Instek are not interested in anyone (maybe just me) reviewing their scope.

Dave.

Bummer. 

I still may pick one up, but it'll be a while. Mid-October at the earliest, assuming I don't buy anything else in the meantime. I'm always needing parts of some kind though.

If I do get one I'll post a bunch of pics at least and answer questions.

[Bored@Work]

I do own an older Instek GDS DSO. I would again buy from the GDS-2000 series or seriously consider the GDS-1000A series for replacement.

Instek's support is not worth to mention. From time to time they answer questions, from time to time they don't. Instek's PC software is junk. They do have usable programming manuals online. If you need PC software you can do your own. The good news is their USB interface is a COM port emulation, not the unusual USB Test & Measurement class. That makes it easier to program. They also have LabVIEW drivers. I never tried those.

As for hacking, there is a mechanical hack around to reduce the fan noise of a GDS-2204. I haven't done it. It should work for all GDS-2000 oscilloscopes. Originally the fan is directly mounted on the inner chassis, with the inner chassis having almost no clearance to the enclosure grill. The fan so close to the grill is supposed to create the fan noise.

The hack is to offset the fan from the inner chassis by inserting a one inch long PVC pipe between the fan and the chassis. The pipe should have the diameter the size of the fan diameter. Moving the fan inwards also requires to move the internal power supply PCB by an inch with some DIY brackets.

There is also a rumor that it is possible to convert a 60 MHz GDS-1062 into a 100 MHz GDS-1102 by changing some DIP switches inside the oscilloscope. But with the GDS-1000A series on the market I wouldn't consider a new oscilloscope from the GDS-1000 series. A cheap used one is another story.

[saturation]

Thanks, very helpful.  That sounds about equal to Rigol.  So Rigol has a chance of upping them over time.

I do own an older Instek GDS DSO. I would again buy from the GDS-2000 series or seriously consider the GDS-1000A series for replacement.

Instek's support is not worth to mention. From time to time they answer questions, from time to time they don't. Instek's PC software is junk. They do have usable programming manuals online. If you need PC software you can do your own. The good news is their USB interface is a COM port emulation, not the unusual USB Test & Measurement class. That makes it easier to program. They also have LabVIEW drivers. I never tried those.

As for hacking, there is a mechanical hack around to reduce the fan noise of a GDS-2204. I haven't done it. It should work for all GDS-2000 oscilloscopes. Originally the fan is directly mounted on the inner chassis, with the inner chassis having almost no clearance to the enclosure grill. The fan so close to the grill is supposed to create the fan noise.

The hack is to offset the fan from the inner chassis by inserting a one inch long PVC pipe between the fan and the chassis. The pipe should have the diameter the size of the fan diameter. Moving the fan inwards also requires to move the internal power supply PCB by an inch with some DIY brackets.

There is also a rumor that it is possible to convert a 60 MHz GDS-1062 into a 100 MHz GDS-1102 by changing some DIP switches inside the oscilloscope. But with the GDS-1000A series on the market I wouldn't consider a new oscilloscope from the GDS-1000 series. A cheap used one is another story.

[Bored@Work]

Thanks, very helpful.  That sounds about equal to Rigol.  So Rigol has a chance of upping them over time.

Having dealt both with Instek support and with Rigol support in the past, my money is on Instek. Rigol service is not even a contender. They are a no-show. A completely lost case.

[saturation]

Ah, thank you.  we are back to Instek being better than Rigol!  As we suspected.  Does the scope you use live up to its specifications as published in the manual?

Why did you have to call Rigol, what do you own of theirs that was a problem?

Thanks, very helpful.  That sounds about equal to Rigol.  So Rigol has a chance of upping them over time.

Having dealt both with Instek support and with Rigol support in the past, my money is on Instek. Rigol service is not even a contender. They are a no-show. A completely lost case.

[ngkee22]

I have emailed Instek a couple of time and have always got a response in about a day.  I have talked to Customer Service and an Engineer there when I was getting some information on the scopes.  They answered my questions each time, so I think their customer support is working well.

I have also emailed Rigol, but never hear back.  I tried a couple of times, but still no response.

Right now, I am going to buy the Instek GDS-1000A series scope, just trying to decide which bandwidth model to go with.  I think Instek is probably the better company.

[cybergibbons]

Instek support has been fine for me - 24 hour reply to mail, answer the phone if you call. Another big plus for me is that I bought from a largish test equipment supplier in the UK who also respond to queries and honour the guarantee.

[saturation]

When you buy it can you review it for us here?  I have an old post about the cost effectiveness of the models, bang for buck it either the 150 MHz versus the 60 MHz at least using tequipment.net prices.

I have emailed Instek a couple of time and have always got a response in about a day.  I have talked to Customer Service and an Engineer there when I was getting some information on the scopes.  They answered my questions each time, so I think their customer support is working well.

I have also emailed Rigol, but never hear back.  I tried a couple of times, but still no response.

Right now, I am going to buy the Instek GDS-1000A series scope, just trying to decide which bandwidth model to go with.  I think Instek is probably the better company.

[McPete]

Well, I ordered mine tonight- I'm happy to lend it to our host, if he'd like to review it... How long does the cheapest shipping from the Tequipment take to get to Australia?

Edit; Ooops, goofed my order- Ordered by credit card, and the whole deal with sending documents isn't something I'm prepared to do... I've asked them to cancel my order, but it may be next week before I can reorder... Gah -_-

[McPete]

Due to some unexpected financial constraints, I had to place my order on hold, but yesterday, I picked up my new Instek GDS-1062A from the post office.

Along with the scope, I got two probe kits, a manual, and a little USB SD card reader, as well as a US wall plug to IEC socket lead.

My immediate thoughts, coming from an old 15MHz Trio analogue scope are;

• Holy Geez, this thing is small! I have space on my bench again!

• Nice, clear screen... and no parallax error!

• Being able to see your trigger level and assign a precise value is damn handy!

• Wow, the ripple on my little bench supply is quite pronounced.

•The UI took me about 15 minutes to adjust to for most of the usual stuff- triggering, coupling, all that sort of gear. It's pretty simple, but coming from a super-simple analogue scope, I was feeling my way along there for a while! I haven't found the post/pre trigger capture settings yet, but that is my next job.

•The included probes are pretty smart- Not sure about the pink identifying bands they come with though!

•Compared to the scope I have at work (Tek 2230), the update rate is a revelation... It's not in the same league as say, a Fluke 199C or a YEW DLM2000, but for me, it's a nice upgrade.

If there's anything in particular anyone would like me to try with it, please let me know and I'll endeavour to get back to you with a result.

P.

[slburris]

Can you check out the SD card slot?  Any issues with various capacities below and above 2GB?
Does it support FAT16 and FAT32 formatted cards?

The Rigol DS1052E seems to work with pretty much any FAT formatted USB stick.
The Hantek DSO-1060 I have doesn't like FAT format, only FAT32, not a big deal
but an undocumented annoyance.

Scott

[bogdan546]

please make a movie with rectangular signal to calibrate the probes
 to me it is so. how is you?

[allanw]

That is already perfectly calibrated.

Here's what an uncalibrated probe looks like: http://www.scienceprog.com/wp-content/uploads/2007i/osc_probes/probe_compensation.jpg